Guild Wars 2

Now before people say this is in other threads I read them, and where they touch basis with what I am going to say I am just going to touch basis on all things. Also note that as much as I hate saying this, (nerf Thieves thing) as Nerfs in PvP always affect good skills in PvE.

Heartseeker – This is an amazing ability, I love it in PvE it is great for a burst and works great. Although in PvP we are seeing more and more non-skilled players running into a large fight and super spamming Heartseeker (which usally hits form 7 – 8k minimal of 6k) and then they stealth and run away if the attention even so much looks their way. Now if we break down HS we see that three solid hits on players preoccupied is minimum 18k damage which takes out a lot of the classes, some leaves them with 3k health some 6k health. I know Warriors have the Glass cannon (GC) builds that nuke things pretty bad, Although that is an activate of all 3 utility skills and he elite. Thieves hit 2 skills some times one, Stealth then 3x spam HS. The bad thing is I am not even sure how to fix this, as most good players do not use the HS build spam. I have been destroyed by good players that never use HS and if they do it is once. So how do we attempt to fix it?

• Do we reduce the damage: This also affects PvE which is a bad thing, not sure how many people super spam HS in PvE but.

• Do we Increase the Energy cost: Again might not be bad, but how does that affect PvE?

• Do we add a CD to the skill: This may be the best idea seeing as it shouldn’t affect PvE that much, although who knows not sure how many super spammers there are in PvE for HS.

Stealth finishers – This is by far probably one of the cheapest and maybe over sighted things that thieves have. Every other class has the potential to be knocked out of the finishers at least once, weather you live form a successful counter is not the point. Thieves have a leg up on this, they hit stealth and finish their victims, not sure if this was to reflect the core ideal of the Profession or not but it is drastically unfair to all the other classes. I have on my Mesmer tried to stealth clone and finish multiple times and every time I come out of stealth. I am just thinking that Thieves should be removed from stealth when doing finishers. 9 out of 10 times if you have to be visible during the finishers and your get countered your still going to finish them the second time, just not seeing why they get to have a 100% success rate when other classes don’t. Guardians are the only profession that have a chance to protect against this.

Not sure on the name but Underwater skill 2 I believe – this is a great skill but even it PvE it takes away form the challenge and makes you almost god like. I have seen people in pvp get in the water and spam this one skill and evade all attacks while killing someone. There are ways around this by Sinking them or using an immobilizing effect, but the Immobilization effects have a CD. I am not sure in Arena Net planned for this to happen or not but players are becoming killing machines while being virtually invulnerable to all attacks. This in my opinion is the Ideal of Broken, Overpowered, and Exploitable. I watched a single thieve defend against 5 people at the Ruins just by spamming this button. What he wasn’t trying to kill the sharks were helping him and when he would get CC’ed he would break it by stealth or something of the sort.

Now I know that people can dodge HS and I know that i will get response form Thieve players saying I am a noob and that I am just QQing for nerf’s. I am fine with that because most of the people that will scream about this post will be the players that insist on a one button spam to win. Let me also state that I have destroyed Thieves 1v1 trying the HS spam method. Combating the HS spam noobs is not hard 1v1 Dodge, knock-back, evades are all viable. With that it is a mechanic that needs some looking at, I also know that no matter what is done Noob players will still find a way to spam a button and say I win, regardless of class. One of the reasons I came to GW was for the PvP and how it is among every other PvP type game I have played the most balanced and the one that requires the most skill (Usually).

I hate saying the word Nerf, but this is in all intended purposes what I am saying, the bad thing is the good players are not even using this build and skills like this. So that means that PvE will have to suffer because a hand full of players decided they have found an exploit and easy way out of using skill. Not sure what do you guys think and feel. I know there will be people that disagree with me and I am fine with this I just ask that when your commenting on your retort for this please be polite and not rude.

They can just hotfix the HS evade mechanism and moves just like that so they won’t evade attacks anymore and the same goes for mesmer 1hand sword move. Those 2 classes right there already have two OP survivability moves like teleport break stuns and stealth.

I don’t really think heartseeker is a one button spam to win. It’s a one button spam that wastes all initiative and usually thieves that do that are so bad anyway that they let themselves get one shot right afterword. I usually pick thieves out of groups just because they are so easy to kill in a few hits, even on my ele. What usually bugs me is warriors that hit like thieves but have 10k more hp than them.

phyxx.7425:

I don’t really think heartseeker is a one button spam to win. It’s a one button spam that wastes all initiative and usually thieves that do that are so bad anyway that they let themselves get one shot right afterword. I usually pick thieves out of groups just because they are so easy to kill in a few hits, even on my ele. What usually bugs me is warriors that hit like thieves but have 10k more hp than them.

Too bad it’s easy to burst down through that extra 10k hp you speak of with warriors.

Brutalistik.6473:

They can just hotfix the HS evade mechanism and moves just like that so they won’t evade attacks anymore and the same goes for mesmer 1hand sword move. Those 2 classes right there already have two OP survivability moves like teleport break stuns and stealth.

I see what your saying but the Mesmer 1 Handed sword move can’t nuke someone for 92% of their health either. I usually can only do about 7 to 10% health damage to someone by using that one skill. And stealth in general isn’t a problem, nor is any teleport ability, I personally think they work just fine. My main goal here is to stop players from generating the same results of someone that uses
* Stealth
* Signet
* Steal
* Backstab
* Venom’s
along with
* Sword phantasm
* Clone
* Switch to pistol shot
* Pistol shot
* Clone
* Switch places (imobolize)
* Sword skill
* Shatter

To someone that
* HS x3 18 to 21k damage

There is a big difference lol between someone utilizing multiple skills to generate a large spike than someone using one skill to do the same. I have been torn apart from chain Thieves using my example ( I may be off on the skill usages ) and I have no problem with that, every class can do that if you build that way. So I am not purposing the removal of something that helps them do that. So removing the Evade ability out of the 1 handed sword ability for Mesmer’s ( which has a Cool Down on it) and only last for 2 seconds ( which I have missed and failed the attack before ) is not the same as a skill that has no cool down and can be spammed multiple times to remove 92% of their health or not all.

Kaimick.5109:

Brutalistik.6473:

They can just hotfix the HS evade mechanism and moves just like that so they won’t evade attacks anymore and the same goes for mesmer 1hand sword move. Those 2 classes right there already have two OP survivability moves like teleport break stuns and stealth.

I see what your saying but the Mesmer 1 Handed sword move can’t nuke someone for 92% of their health either. I usually can only do about 7 to 10% health damage to someone by using that one skill. And stealth in general isn’t a problem, nor is any teleport ability, I personally think they work just fine. My main goal here is to stop players from generating the same results of someone that uses
* Stealth
* Signet
* Steal
* Backstab
* Venom’s
along with
* Sword phantasm
* Clone
* Switch to pistol shot
* Pistol shot
* Clone
* Switch places (imobolize)
* Sword skill
* Shatter

To someone that
* HS x3 18 to 21k damage

There is a big difference lol between someone utilizing multiple skills to generate a large spike than someone using one skill to do the same. I have been torn apart from chain Thieves using my example ( I may be off on the skill usages ) and I have no problem with that, every class can do that if you build that way. So I am not purposing the removal of something that helps them do that. So removing the Evade ability out of the 1 handed sword ability for Mesmer’s ( which has a Cool Down on it) and only last for 2 seconds ( which I have missed and failed the attack before ) is not the same as a skill that has no cool down and can be spammed multiple times to remove 92% of their health or not all.

Even if the mesmer’s evading sword attack doesn’t do as much damage as heart seeker. The point of those 100% evading attacks is out of balance along with the stuff I have mention. If they can hotfix those moves to where it’s not evading anymore then I can assure you that those classes that can do that will use it less because they want to survive too and not be countered. The learn to play excuse can only go but so far especially if a certain class has a lot utilities to be a one man army in the game when it comes to pvp like eles and guardians.

No I am sorry but a one time evade for 2 seconds every 60 seconds is no where close to a evade for 3 seconds every 10 seconds or permanently. Honestly out of the say 100 times I have done that burst chain the evade aspect has only been in account maybe 13 times. When I am doing my burst chain the 2 seconds of Evade is not long enough ( not saying it needs to be longer by any means it is fine how it is ) that 2 seconds is enough time for the person to realize that I am in their face and usually they start hurting me.

Every type of build has a weakness Bunker builds can’t deal out tat much damage they are meant to hold points while survive. Can they kill people yes but not as fast as people either Spike or a mixture bunker spike.

Spike kill really fast but die really fast.

That isn’t the point of this thread though, the evade part of HS isn’t an issue really, the issue is HS Spam noobs are generating the same effect as those using 6 to 8 skills as they are using 1 skill.

Kaimick.5109:

No I am sorry but a one time evade for 2 seconds every 60 seconds is no where close to a evade for 3 seconds every 10 seconds or permanently. Honestly out of the say 100 times I have done that burst chain the evade aspect has only been in account maybe 13 times. When I am doing my burst chain the 2 seconds of Evade is not long enough ( not saying it needs to be longer by any means it is fine how it is ) that 2 seconds is enough time for the person to realize that I am in their face and usually they start hurting me.

Every type of build has a weakness Bunker builds can’t deal out tat much damage they are meant to hold points while survive. Can they kill people yes but not as fast as people either Spike or a mixture bunker spike.

Spike kill really fast but die really fast.

That isn’t the point of this thread though, the evade part of HS isn’t an issue really, the issue is HS Spam noobs are generating the same effect as those using 6 to 8 skills as they are using 1 skill.

Actually the evade mechanic is one of the main reason why dagger thieves keep spamming heart seeker and their other move that can do that. Nothing can’t counter it which adds more survivability to the thief class. When I play on my thief I use it because what’s going to counter me? I have my teleport stun breaker like a mesmer and stealth like a mesmer. So what’s going to stop me from killing a player or more and have other utilities to escape the trouble if I failed to kill that player?

Nothing at all.

Knockbacks work against HS noobs, Just so you know I have done it countless times 1v1. that usually stops the HS spam hit. Again this isn’t about the evade it is about people that use 1 skill to do as much damage as someone that does 6 skills.

Since you admit to playing the HS build, why not play the other build that requires you to hit 6 or 7 skills? they have just as much survivability. If you fail to kill, then I guess you have to get out of there or fight to survive.

I am sorry again but the reason why dagger thieves spam HS is not for the Evade it is to do 18k – 21k damage with out much thought process. if it was just for the evade they would do it to get away rather than to do damage, or close the distance. rather they do it when they are in striking range.

Kaimick.5109:

Knockbacks work against HS noobs, Just so you know I have done it countless times 1v1. that usually stops the HS spam hit. Again this isn’t about the evade it is about people that use 1 skill to do as much damage as someone that does 6 skills.

Since you admit to playing the HS build, why not play the other build that requires you to hit 6 or 7 skills? they have just as much survivability. If you fail to kill, then I guess you have to get out of there or fight to survive.

I am sorry again but the reason why dagger thieves spam HS is not for the Evade it is to do 18k – 21k damage with out much thought process. if it was just for the evade they would do it to get away rather than to do damage, or close the distance. rather they do it when they are in striking range.

Heart seeker can only get knock back or stun when the attack lands and you time it right before they start another heart seeker attack. The damage increases with heart seeker when players health pools decreases.

I can play other builds and still have my survivability like a mesmer since the only thing I’m missing is a evade mechanic that daggers offer.

Again evade is the issue if you want to talk about heart seeker.

Brutalistik.6473:

They can just hotfix the HS evade mechanism and moves just like that so they won’t evade attacks anymore and the same goes for mesmer 1hand sword move. Those 2 classes right there already have two OP survivability moves like teleport break stuns and stealth.

Hate to burst your bubble, but HS doesn’t evade.

Zunhar.4079:

Brutalistik.6473:

They can just hotfix the HS evade mechanism and moves just like that so they won’t evade attacks anymore and the same goes for mesmer 1hand sword move. Those 2 classes right there already have two OP survivability moves like teleport break stuns and stealth.

Hate to burst your bubble, but HS doesn’t evade.

Crap..I must of gotten it confused with Death Blossom and if that’s the case HS should be left alone.

Brutalistik.6473:

Kaimick.5109:

Knockbacks work against HS noobs, Just so you know I have done it countless times 1v1. that usually stops the HS spam hit. Again this isn’t about the evade it is about people that use 1 skill to do as much damage as someone that does 6 skills.

Since you admit to playing the HS build, why not play the other build that requires you to hit 6 or 7 skills? they have just as much survivability. If you fail to kill, then I guess you have to get out of there or fight to survive.

I am sorry again but the reason why dagger thieves spam HS is not for the Evade it is to do 18k – 21k damage with out much thought process. if it was just for the evade they would do it to get away rather than to do damage, or close the distance. rather they do it when they are in striking range.

Heart seeker can only get knock back or stun when the attack lands and you time it right before they start another heart seeker attack. The damage increases with heart seeker when players health pools decreases.

I can play other builds and still have my survivability like a mesmer since the only thing I’m missing is a evade mechanic that daggers offer.

Again evade is the issue if you want to talk about heart seeker.

Chill! it reduces 66% movespeed making heartseeker leap 150=almost basic attack range which is 130. Criple makes HS 225 range, which is not enough to catch up to any other player spaming HS. YOu just won versus thief gz. He cannot remove chill almost any skill exept Roll for innitiative or Withdraw. If he uses either he makes aruond 600 yard range in between you 2 gz you got at least 600 range now, plus he wasted 1 of his utilitys. To get close to you it will take at least 2 heartseekers=6 innitiative.

P.S. WtF from you see 3 heartseekers doing 18k damage, i have 2500 armor and never saw more then 4k heartseeker when im under 25%

Kaimick.5109:

Heartseeker – This is an amazing ability, I love it in PvE it is great for a burst and works great. Although in PvP we are seeing more and more non-skilled players running into a large fight and super spamming Heartseeker (which usally hits form 7 – 8k minimal of 6k) and then they stealth and run away if the attention even so much looks their way.

I’ve never seen a HS crit for 7-8k, but I’m sure it’s possible if you have 15+ stacks of might with a full 5 charges of Assassin’s Signet AND your target is below 25% health with glass cannon gear and spec, which means that 1 HS is usually enough to kill them.

Now if we break down HS we see that three solid hits on players preoccupied is minimum 18k damage which takes out a lot of the classes, some leaves them with 3k health some 6k health. I know Warriors have the Glass cannon (GC) builds that nuke things pretty bad, Although that is an activate of all 3 utility skills and he elite. Thieves hit 2 skills some times one, Stealth then 3x spam HS. The bad thing is I am not even sure how to fix this, as most good players do not use the HS build spam. I have been destroyed by good players that never use HS and if they do it is once. So how do we attempt to fix it?

Where the hell did you pull 18k damage from? A HS crit can achieve 6k easily and three hits of 6k would be 18k sure, BUT a 6k crit requires the target to be below 25% health and usually be a glass cannon. So if the target has 18k health and they start at 25% then they have 4.5k/18k health so how can the thief do 3x HS when one would be enough?

Stealth finishers – This is by far probably one of the cheapest and maybe over sighted things that thieves have. Every other class has the potential to be knocked out of the finishers at least once, weather you live form a successful counter is not the point. Thieves have a leg up on this, they hit stealth and finish their victims, not sure if this was to reflect the core ideal of the Profession or not but it is drastically unfair to all the other classes. I have on my Mesmer tried to stealth clone and finish multiple times and every time I come out of stealth. I am just thinking that Thieves should be removed from stealth when doing finishers. 9 out of 10 times if you have to be visible during the finishers and your get countered your still going to finish them the second time, just not seeing why they get to have a 100% success rate when other classes don’t. Guardians are the only profession that have a chance to protect against this.

Yeah this does suck, but then again they just used shadow refuge (a 60 second CD) to stomp you… that means they won’t have the CD for a fight in the next 60 seconds.

Not sure on the name but Underwater skill 2 I believe – this is a great skill but even it PvE it takes away form the challenge and makes you almost god like. I have seen people in pvp get in the water and spam this one skill and evade all attacks while killing someone. There are ways around this by Sinking them or using an immobilizing effect, but the Immobilization effects have a CD. I am not sure in Arena Net planned for this to happen or not but players are becoming killing machines while being virtually invulnerable to all attacks. This in my opinion is the Ideal of Broken, Overpowered, and Exploitable. I watched a single thieve defend against 5 people at the Ruins just by spamming this button. What he wasn’t trying to kill the sharks were helping him and when he would get CC’ed he would break it by stealth or something of the sort.

The number 2 skill for spear is Flanking Strike, it hits hard, has a 3/4 second cast time and costs 3 initiative – bonus of 3 stacks of vulnerability.
So basically you aren’t even looking at thief skills for information while you are writing this… that would explain your erroneous information in relation to HS.

I have seen HS crit for 7 or 8 k, as far as the amount it happens not sure regardless I have been at full health and had a Thieve from stealth ( and STEALTH is not the issue ) hit me with 3 HS and I have dropped to 15% health. Regardless of how the skill works no profession none should be able to take you down to 18% health by spamming 1 skill.

I am not suggesting a damage reduction I am just saying to put a 2 second CD on it which will dis allow spam fest on it.

As far as a thieve blowing shadow refuge on a stealth kill or a regular stealth it still doesn’t bring them out and still gives them a 100% success rate, I don’t care if they blew a CD or not. You can’t do your Number 2 ability on a lot of profession unless you have a target. CD or not it shouldn’t be allowed.

As far as the Flanking strike I watched a Thieve do it for a good 30 seconds unless there is another underwater ability that makes you swim around the opponent and strike them. He when swim around strike swim around strike. Regardless this made him invulnerable for that 30 seconds.

Again the sad thing is about this I do not see what I consider to be good players spamming flanking strike, spamming HS, or even stealth finishing people. I mean some of them might but from what I can tell I don’t see it.

Only thieves that do decent damage on HS are glass cannons. At the end of the day, they’re HS is just fluff on my Warrior. My S/S Warrior is mean to Glass thieves.

My new favorite thief issue is Shadow Assault underwater. If traited right the you can’t hit a thief at all while he protects the point in Capricorn. Once they have the point just leave a thief their to stealth and hit Shadow assault. You’ll never take the point.

ABSOLUTE BULLkitten

Elloni.2473:

My new favorite thief issue is Shadow Assault underwater. If traited right the you can’t hit a thief at all while he protects the point in Capricorn. Once they have the point just leave a thief their to stealth and hit Shadow assault. You’ll never take the point.

ABSOLUTE BULLkitten

You know such things as conditions,sink,aoe, push/pull?

Kaimick.5109:

I have seen HS crit for 7 or 8 k, as far as the amount it happens not sure regardless I have been at full health and had a Thieve from stealth ( and STEALTH is not the issue ) hit me with 3 HS and I have dropped to 15% health. Regardless of how the skill works no profession none should be able to take you down to 18% health by spamming 1 skill.

I am not suggesting a damage reduction I am just saying to put a 2 second CD on it which will dis allow spam fest on it.

As far as a thieve blowing shadow refuge on a stealth kill or a regular stealth it still doesn’t bring them out and still gives them a 100% success rate, I don’t care if they blew a CD or not. You can’t do your Number 2 ability on a lot of profession unless you have a target. CD or not it shouldn’t be allowed.

As far as the Flanking strike I watched a Thieve do it for a good 30 seconds unless there is another underwater ability that makes you swim around the opponent and strike them. He when swim around strike swim around strike. Regardless this made him invulnerable for that 30 seconds.

Again the sad thing is about this I do not see what I consider to be good players spamming flanking strike, spamming HS, or even stealth finishing people. I mean some of them might but from what I can tell I don’t see it.

I can record you a video with my friend how much Can full glass cannon thief hit full glass cannon necro. Im 100% sure i wont even hit 5k in whole time.

clearly L2p issue again .

HS for 18k … sure dude , as mentioned before you would

a) only crit for around 6k if target is below 25%, and then you are dead for sure by just one

b) you only crit that high on classcanons, and then it’s okay, because if the thief gets hit by another gc he will die even faster .

c) you can avoid it, i can’t even count how often i dodged 2 Hs with just one dodge roll, or how often these baddies spamed all their Initiative in a defensive cooldown .

d) HS a bunker for ~1k is fine ….

And for stealth stomping:

you do realize that you can still use you interrupts ?
You do realize that a thief can only get stability through runes ( lyssa + elite ) or by stealing ?
How should you stomp anybody who knows what he is doing ?

Play pistol offhand all day ?
And then this still can be countered by a good player…

Stealth stomping is nowhere near OP, it just shows again that you don’t have a clue how to play agains thiefs, and this is a l2p problem.

Make your self a thief and go play some tPvP games, you will see what happens.

Then come back and report us, perhaps even make a video so we can help you to understand the thief gameplay..

@Ivis:
a) It really depends on a lot of things, doesn’t it?
b) … except the thief can entirely avoid the damage if things are not going his way
c) agree on this one
d) 3.1 k armor … and still hs does around 2-3k … it is not really an issue for me on my non-bunker guardian. Kindly realize that some speccs/professions have buffs, while other don’t.

While stealth-stomping is not an issue for some classes, for others it is. Try playing a necro … stealth-stomping does prevent the downed fear .. that is an issue imho. Interrupts are all fine, but stealth-stomping makes it a lot harder for some classes to buy themselves time to get a res … it is a bigger issue for some classes than for others.

Hello,

As we have already several threads talking about this issue, this one is now closed.

We have a dedicated thread for the thief here : Feedback about the thief and its gameplay. Please try to post your concerns & feedback about it in this thread, so we can have a clear overview for our teams.

Thank you for your understanding