Guild Wars 2

jportell.2197:

More often than not I will face teams that have absolutely none of these.

Just like necros before the patch, from what I understand. I wish it was not so, but that is the game as it is and it sucks if your favored class is on that list. The problem is that there are a limited amount of roles and certain classes fill those roles better, patch to patch. It should not be this way. Every class should have a place to shine that is valid and good, but ArenaNet has not gotten there yet.

Listen it all comes down to your underlying assumption: bunkers should not be able to die in 1v1 (therefore we need x), which is just plain wrong.

Most bunker builds spec to mitigate direct damage. You can spec, through traits, utilities, runes, sigils, etc. to mitigate condi damage too, but its a tradeoff. What I see now is people are not making those tough tradeoffs.

jportell.2197:

Issue: Condition damage has no HARD COUNTER.
Everything else in this game has a HARD COUNTER.
Condition damage needs a HARD COUNTER.

Nice game, can I play too?

Issue: Bunkers have no HARD COUNTER.
Everything else in this game has a HARD COUNTER.
Bunkers needs a HARD COUNTER.

Easy

Bunkers hard counter is S/d thief since most bunker builds depend on having a lot of boons up at all times. S/D thief is hard countered by getting pinged and then focused in team fights.
Conditions have no direct hard counter. Bunkers have always had a hard counter in 1vx fights. Issue is conditions get more powerful the more people are in the fight. Big difference.

So yeah nice game except for you are wrong because bunkers do have a hard counter.

Fenrir.5493:

This discussion has to stop, people that are posting here are just defending his hidden agenda:

The Boz – obviously has a necro condition op class and he does not want his lolipop to be stealed from him.

jportell- has a bunker and he wants to tank conditions….

Basically the old bunker meta vs the new condi meta fighting.

This is not going to end until people stops to push their hidden agendas…

The truth is that condition damage has no real counter, there is no stat in the game or a boon that clearly states and does reduce condition damage, that is the issue, and needs to be adressed carefully, because if they dont do that, what is going to happen is that we are going back to the bunker meta, wich is not a good step.

^This. yes I have a bunker and I do want to “tank” conditions. However what you stated at the bottom is what I have been trying to push all along and it is the absolute truth.

jportell.2197:

Fenrir.5493:

This discussion has to stop, people that are posting here are just defending his hidden agenda:

The Boz – obviously has a necro condition op class and he does not want his lolipop to be stealed from him.

jportell- has a bunker and he wants to tank conditions….

Basically the old bunker meta vs the new condi meta fighting.

This is not going to end until people stops to push their hidden agendas…

The truth is that condition damage has no real counter, there is no stat in the game or a boon that clearly states and does reduce condition damage, that is the issue, and needs to be adressed carefully, because if they dont do that, what is going to happen is that we are going back to the bunker meta, wich is not a good step.

^This. yes I have a bunker and I do want to “tank” conditions. However what you stated at the bottom is what I have been trying to push all along and it is the absolute truth.

Ok but you do realize that devs cant allow bunkers to bunker conditions?, so if they do that (put stat and a boon to mitigate condition damage) probably its not going to be for the bunkers, they need a counter and that is condition damage, bunkers are meant to bunker power damage.

Bunkers right now are using condi damage as their main source of damage because its over the top so basically they are bunkering and doing a lot of damage too, but they cant be allowed to bunker this so the game can be balanced there should be a counter to everything and this way all the builds have a role, power>condi>bunker>power.

Fenrir.5493:

The Boz – obviously has a necro condition op class and he does not want his lolipop to be stealed from him.

Boz has been pretty open in other arenas about the issue. He is usually pretty reasonable, but does not suffer . . . well you can finish that sentence.

It’s this obviously that is getting me. Prove it or go home.

Too many people have jumped into a new necro, gone to hotjoin and smashed people, then made posts about it. Somehow people who did the same but had less win did not bother to post their experiences.

All I hear on this issue is people just saying it is so or citing some video or a few hours playing Necro which do not show anything.

Those of us that have played Necro quite a bit try to bring our experience to the table, pointing out misconceptions or places people are just plain wrong, and we are dismissed as “wanting our lollypop”.

power>condi>bunker>power

The GW2 holy trinity, dare I say it.

I don’t think anything is wrong with having armor ignoring damage. Conditions do have a counter, it’s removing them, people have lost their minds. You counter conditions by removing them, you increase your time against them (and damage in general) with vitality.

However I think the frequency of how conditions are handed out just doesn’t compute. As well the lack of power armor ignoring options making it feel binary. Now more condi removal keeps getting added which trivializes profs with less condition variety into more power or bunkering, which generally they already are in so it just makes them do less damage in general of which they barely did any.

Tenebrous.2451:

power>condi>bunker>power

The GW2 holy trinity, dare I say it.

That’s ro-sham-bo, the classic MMO trinity has no sort of relation like that.

jportell.2197:

Fenrir.5493:

This discussion has to stop, people that are posting here are just defending his hidden agenda:

The Boz – obviously has a necro condition op class and he does not want his lolipop to be stealed from him.

jportell- has a bunker and he wants to tank conditions….

Basically the old bunker meta vs the new condi meta fighting.

This is not going to end until people stops to push their hidden agendas…

The truth is that condition damage has no real counter, there is no stat in the game or a boon that clearly states and does reduce condition damage, that is the issue, and needs to be adressed carefully, because if they dont do that, what is going to happen is that we are going back to the bunker meta, wich is not a good step.

^This. yes I have a bunker and I do want to “tank” conditions. However what you stated at the bottom is what I have been trying to push all along and it is the absolute truth.

The issue isn’t so much an ‘anti-condition’ boon so much as how Anet kittened up when making condition removal.

When making the classes/traits/utilities they set up cleansing as if specs didn’t need condition removal to be viable… it led to not caring about splitting dps v control conditions… it led to tucked away mass condi removals in certain classes… since conditions weren’t thought strong enough to require cleanse based counters, I mean to have a playable spec.

And that was their flaw.
They kittening had no idea how the game they were making played, it led to so many issues, like… a speccing nightmare and extremely awkword condition situation…

Even now that the issue is blatantly obvious, for a years time, and they STILL don’t seem to kittening get it…
They nerfed ele condi removal instead of scattering it out throughout the class…
They have left rangers, since beta, with one great condi removal trait… pigeon-holing the class, since beta…
They seem to think the issue with mesmers is ‘not enough condition removal utilities’… have they even played a mesmer?!?! the class is as utility starved as kitten.
After one year, they gave warriors 1 mediocre->bad condi removal trait… and one ‘hard counter to condition’ utility (BAD BAD GAMEPLAY IDEA, no one kittening likes having, possibly, massive chunks of their spec suddenly be useless)

It’s kind of kittened.

What I’m getting the impression of is that people want the ability to remove condis appropriately, tank damage, and be able to break from stuns. All in the same build.

No weaknesses. Is that good design? People love being well-rounded/invincible, and I’m still open to the idea that condi pressure is too high.

But is that really a good idea? To make a bunker build able to bunker down well against any type of intrusion?

Cogbyrn.7283:

What I’m getting the impression of is that people want the ability to remove condis appropriately, tank damage, and be able to break from stuns. All in the same build.

No weaknesses. Is that good design? People love being well-rounded/invincible, and I’m still open to the idea that condi pressure is too high.

But is that really a good idea? To make a bunker build able to bunker down well against any type of intrusion?

I’d like a game where most fights ended with deep engaging gameplay.
GW2 is based around skirmishes with little innate teamwork and teamsupport.

That means in and of your spec, because of the game-style Anet chose, to have the ability to counterplay most enemies and they you…. there has to be allot of things in a spec…

I think that is the solution would be to properly create counter play between condi and condi removal by making durations longer and application less spammy. Making vitality a better counter also might help.

Remember when people whined about death blossom spam being op?

garethh.3518:

Cogbyrn.7283:

What I’m getting the impression of is that people want the ability to remove condis appropriately, tank damage, and be able to break from stuns. All in the same build.

No weaknesses. Is that good design? People love being well-rounded/invincible, and I’m still open to the idea that condi pressure is too high.

But is that really a good idea? To make a bunker build able to bunker down well against any type of intrusion?

I’d like a game where most fights ended with deep engaging gameplay.
GW2 is based around skirmishes with little innate teamwork and teamsupport.

That means in and of your spec, because of the game-style Anet chose, to have the ability to counterplay most enemies and they you…. there has to be allot of things in a spec…

If you don’t mind, can you describe the type of deep/engaging gameplay mechanic you’re looking for? Because I don’t think you’ll find it outside of a Fighting game. I’ve had plenty of interesting GW2 fights where knowing what an opponent would do next gave me an edge, but at the end of the day, it’s an MMO with enough mechanics and freedom to build that odds are you’re going to have a build-based weakness. The design is such that you overlap that with the strength of a teammate or trivialize it with other intense strengths.

jportell.2197:

Alkaholic.3875:

Necros DO have counters.

- AR Elixir bomb Engies
- CC warriors

AR elixir bomb engis only survive a bit longer and if a necro has good timing the engi is screwed long before 25% health. So many others have also stated how easy it is for a necro to kite around and soft cc (cripple/chill) warriors.

This isn’t a 1v1 game. Then engie should survive long enough to cap a point and wait for backup. The warrior has as many dodges, zerker stance, stability and an 3.x sec stun on a 7.x cooldown w/ other stuns, his dmg may not be great but he can lock down the necro for his teammate to secure the kill.

Either way, my point still stands, there are counters to necros, people don’t want to play them.

Cogbyrn.7283:

garethh.3518:

Cogbyrn.7283:

What I’m getting the impression of is that people want the ability to remove condis appropriately, tank damage, and be able to break from stuns. All in the same build.

No weaknesses. Is that good design? People love being well-rounded/invincible, and I’m still open to the idea that condi pressure is too high.

But is that really a good idea? To make a bunker build able to bunker down well against any type of intrusion?

I’d like a game where most fights ended with deep engaging gameplay.
GW2 is based around skirmishes with little innate teamwork and teamsupport.

That means in and of your spec, because of the game-style Anet chose, to have the ability to counterplay most enemies and they you…. there has to be allot of things in a spec…

If you don’t mind, can you describe the type of deep/engaging gameplay mechanic you’re looking for? Because I don’t think you’ll find it outside of a Fighting game. I’ve had plenty of interesting GW2 fights where knowing what an opponent would do next gave me an edge, but at the end of the day, it’s an MMO with enough mechanics and freedom to build that odds are you’re going to have a build-based weakness. The design is such that you overlap that with the strength of a teammate or trivialize it with other intense strengths.

Have you played Warhammer Online?
That’s the closest to it in a game I’ve played, I mainly played a single target healing zealot. The entire combat scheme being based on group v group fights, making positioning and how well you could predict allies/enemies, see conditions/inc-heal-debuffs go up on allies give leaps and bounds of an advantage… like after back line healing for a long time, where I had to know where spikes were going to hit when, how to best avoid the nasty inc heal debuffs, how hard classes hit and from what, positioning to discourge being stealth-ganked…. I played a rank 55 choppa (a month or so after the ranks got pushed to 100) and was pulling above even k/d most the time and even topped a few dmg charts….
It was a game where there was a large skill cap relatively independent of what class you played, a fair deal of the time, not always by any means… but often enough to make it a game worth playing.

The skirmishy nature of GW2 puts so much more focus on the actual class abilities themselves, instead of working in and against a group, which means if I critique the game… the ability scheme is where I’ll start since Anet seems utterly intent on conquest. The abilities themselves, on weapons, aren’t any deeper than any MMOs, and I think that’s where most people hit a wall… other MMOs don’t have deeper abilities yet manage just fine so GW2 should be able to… but the thing is, they are based on team fighting so get tons and tons if depth from just positioning and teamwork allone… GW2 needed nearly MOBA depth weapons to pull off this skirmishy conquest. It needed clearly illustrated and generally cohesive abilities (CC/heals/buffs/debuffs) on weapons to get the classes in small fights working together and able to know what is happening, body block and spike/anti-spike buffing/mitigating skills…

Yes GW2 has CC on weapons… no they are not deep.
Landing a CC on a target tends to be a joke in GW2… forcing this stability/CC-break meta which revolves more around how you spec than how you play… the same thing with conditions.
Even deeper… there is little to no innate teamwork short of focus firing… you don’t have any group support from healing/cleansing/buffing of allies from weapon abilities/utilities short of what you can squeeze into a hardcrore premade, or a few long CDs on a bunker spec…

You then may say… well if you want a MOBA, go play one…
Well, actually I have been playing MOBAs lately, but that doesn’t mean the highest potential for GW2 and this conquest doesn’t come from pushing more towards that style of abilities.

Mammoth.1975:

Remember when people whined about death blossom spam being op?

Im thinking of all those complaints about Guardian burning.

Each and every day I get accused of being a “necro who wants to continue to overwhelm with conditions everywhere”, and each and every day I reply the same way.

Is the Terror/Dhuumfire build OP right now?
Yes.

Are any other necro builds viable for PvP right now?
No.

What would I change with Terror/Dhuumfire?
Replace burning with torment, switch their places around.

Do I think other necro builds need help?
Yes, I do. Particularly axe and main dagger.

Do I think conditions as a whole need to be nerfed?
No.

Now will you please stop with the ad hominem attacks against me, and argue my points, and not my person? Thanks.

The Boz.2038:

Each and every day I get accused of being a “necro who wants to continue to overwhelm with conditions everywhere”, and each and every day I reply the same way.

Is the Terror/Dhuumfire build OP right now?
Yes.

Are any other necro builds viable for PvP right now?
No.

What would I change with Terror/Dhuumfire?
Replace burning with torment, switch their places around.

Do I think other necro builds need help?
Yes, I do. Particularly axe and main dagger.

Do I think conditions as a whole need to be nerfed?
No.

Now will you please stop with the ad hominem attacks against me, and argue my points, and not my person? Thanks.

How dare you mask your propaganda behind an attempt at logical discourse. We all see how you’re using reverse psychology to make ANet think the general community thinks something is OP so they can disregard it and you can remain OP in your OP build.

I enjoy jportell crusade against condition damage, he keeps following HIS dream of 1v1 unkillable bunker spec which will lead to AMAZING game play when you put 2 bunkers on 2 points, and harass enemy with 3 peeps (or keep them roaming between those points to reinforce whichever point they attack since they need at least 3 peeps to have any chance of killing said bunker, so they can’t split effectively to attack 2 positions etc).

Now back on the matter at hand, IT DOES NOT SAY ANYWHERE THAT MAKING A BUNKER CLASS, YOU ARE GRANTED INVULNERABILITY IN 1V1 SITUATIONS. That my dear jportell is the rode of your own imagination. Which is perfectly fine. We can dream to be what we want to be. That doesn’t make our vision THE ONLY VISION, nor the RIGHT VISION, which we try to impart to rest of players using more or less democratic ways

So is one thing that you – personally – don’t enjoy / like / approve of something, but making it a general thing, or even claiming that’s how the game it’s meant to be played – because, again, you, personally enjoy your own vision of playing the game in said manner, is not ok.

Cogbyrn.7283:

The Boz.2038:

Each and every day I get accused of being a “necro who wants to continue to overwhelm with conditions everywhere”, and each and every day I reply the same way.

Is the Terror/Dhuumfire build OP right now?
Yes.

Are any other necro builds viable for PvP right now?
No.

What would I change with Terror/Dhuumfire?
Replace burning with torment, switch their places around.

Do I think other necro builds need help?
Yes, I do. Particularly axe and main dagger.

Do I think conditions as a whole need to be nerfed?
No.

Now will you please stop with the ad hominem attacks against me, and argue my points, and not my person? Thanks.

How dare you mask your propaganda behind an attempt at logical discourse. We all see how you’re using reverse psychology to make ANet think the general community thinks something is OP so they can disregard it and you can remain OP in your OP build.

AMEN.

ensoriki.5789:

Mammoth.1975:

Remember when people whined about death blossom spam being op?

Im thinking of all those complaints about Guardian burning.

I don’t recall that, but I do recall people complaining about the forums about omgspamevadesendlessbleeds.

The devs must just laugh sometimes.

garethh.3518:

Have you played Warhammer Online?
That’s the closest to it in a game I’ve played, I mainly played a single target healing zealot. The entire combat scheme being based on group v group fights, making positioning and how well you could predict allies/enemies, see conditions/inc-heal-debuffs go up on allies give leaps and bounds of an advantage… like after back line healing for a long time, where I had to know where spikes were going to hit when, how to best avoid the nasty inc heal debuffs, how hard classes hit and from what, positioning to discourge being stealth-ganked…. I played a rank 55 choppa (a month or so after the ranks got pushed to 100) and was pulling above even k/d most the time and even topped a few dmg charts….
It was a game where there was a large skill cap relatively independent of what class you played, a fair deal of the time, not always by any means… but often enough to make it a game worth playing.

I have been reading this thread and I am reasonably impressed that it hasn’t spiraled into a massive insult-fest as it usually does.

In regards to your point there however:
I have played Warhammer online. I played it for around 3 years after launch.

Your argument there is flawed. Zealots were not the most effective healers at any point. DoKs and Warrior Priests were. And those two classes just spammed their massive aoe heal – very little skill involved.
Playing a zealot required a lot more skill but you could replace it with a shaman – a DoK was a requirement though.
And in that game most dps classes had a -50% healing debuff and you could be kitten well sure that whatever was getting focused had it on them. As a single target BW I survived through positioning and because of CC from our KOBS.
In war you relied a LOT on your teammates.
And need I remind you that we had bw and sorc bombing even in small scale encounters for a very long time? Again as a bw, I can safely say that I didn’t need a lot of skill to do that.
You’re comparing apples to oranges.

On topic:
I play a necro so I may be biased.
I find that while condis are very powerful, you have a much longer time to react than you do to direct dmg. If you get jumped by a warrior/thief/ele and you don’t have a stun breaker you are dead. If you get jumped by a condi class you have quite a bit of time before you succomb to the pressure.
I just think it’s really hard to balance it all without making condi heavy professions useless. As a necro for example, I can’t play a power spec because i’ll get mangled as I don’t have a way to disengage or access to stability or vigor so I play condi which allows me to stay at range. Very similar to hgh engis (although arguably better).

Sorry for the off topic.

Back when I played WAR it was just magus pull, root, chosen magic debuff, drop sorc bombs, move to next fight. We may have had a zealot up the back somewhere to clean up the little scratches we got before we detonated…

@ Bennet
Zealots not being the most effective healer doesn’t mean it wasn’t effective (I actually was a top sorc and choppas personal healer for a while), but more importantly, a good example of gameplay…
I didn’t play the game when bomb groups where super, super common. WAR was by no stretch of the imagination wonderful in every match, like pretty much any game, but like a good game, overall, it had engaging enough gameplay that sticking it out through those ugly matches was worth it.

Yes the game was notably different and I incorporated that difference into the transition I made from talking about WAR to GW2… just how they were different (less team based) so what GW2 had to do to make up for it (much deeper and well rounded weapon/util setup, push more for innate synergy between allies).

Anyways…
Conditions, yeah they are just in a kittening bad spot… they basically have to rule the ‘any fight other than burst’ game or be left sub-par… or as possible pieces of flavor for team fights… kind of a kittenty situation…
Did I mention the Anet devs really annoy me?
Because they do…

You can never please the masses (or the trolls trying to stir things up). Even if all attacks did 1 dmg and nobody had blocks dodges etc, someone would still complain that his 1 dmg is not same as X class 1 dmg.

Imagine if the new map would get into competitive play, how the meta would insanely change. No power builds, no bunker builds, no condi builds. Who has more pulls / stability / knockbacks. Then peeps will start QQing that X class has a shorter CD on their pull / knockback, or Y class has TOO MANY knockbacks etc.

@garethh: Thanks for elaborating on that. I didn’t find WH Online to be very compelling at all, but that’s probably because being so reliant on teammates doesn’t work when you (and by you, I’m talking about me here) know 1 other person who plays and don’t really enjoy the company of the typical MMO gamer. I thought it was fun morphing my arm into different things as a Marauder for a while, being hilariously tanky as a black orc, and nuking things as the sorc. However, I never hit cap because I didn’t have very strong motivation to see any end-game. And it felt like it was taking forever.

Then later I heard it had turned into huge AoE bombing runs, then population imbalances seemed to ruin things, and I never really explored the game any deeper.

Speaking of, I actually think player collision could be an interesting mechanic in this game, but ah well.

Anyway, as previously mentioned, I’ve had some very engaging and interesting encounters in GW2, but that’s probably assisted by the fact that I just really enjoy this game despite its shortcomings here and there.