Too Much Dodge? What About Thieves?
Because it is their defense mechanism. They don’t have protection, stability, immunity, blocks, invulnerability, high armor and HP or any other damage mitigating ability most other classes have. And their dodging was already nerfed, they were first with engineers and rangers iirc.
Because it is their defense mechanism. They don’t have protection, stability, immunity, blocks, invulnerability, high armor and HP or any other damage mitigating ability most other classes have. And their dodging was already nerfed, they were first with engineers and rangers iirc.
It’s unfortunate that their main defensive mechanisms lack so much counter-playing, though. It wouldn’t be so bad if all of them were under cooldowns, but some can be “spammed” for high reward.
Because it is their defense mechanism. They don’t have protection, stability, immunity, blocks, invulnerability, high armor and HP or any other damage mitigating ability most other classes have. And their dodging was already nerfed, they were first with engineers and rangers iirc.
Hmm… what’s that thing thieves have lots and lots of access to that allows them to escape, restart fights, gain health, remove conditions… oh yeah – Stealth.
No stability? Lyssa Runes every 45 seconds says, ‘hi’. Consume Plasma says, ‘hi’. Dagger Storm says, ‘hi’.
And armor? Please. Thieves are a medium armor class. Elementalists and Mesmers are light. So no points on that argument, either.
I fail to see how they are spammed for “high reward”. The only skill that could potentially fit this description is withdraw.
Not that your post is entirely without merit. Thieves are probably fine right now since they are all berserker… but as players begin to migrate into soldier or other defensive gear, things might get pretty abusive. Bow/bow has already reached this point on foefire and soldier s/d can tank pretty much anything, boon steal, and has the freedom to select any traits/utilities it wants (venomshare is my favorite).
I can easily see a resurgence of double s/d thieves with the new sigil rework… It’s gonna be a ride…
Because it is their defense mechanism. They don’t have protection, stability, immunity, blocks, invulnerability, high armor and HP or any other damage mitigating ability most other classes have. And their dodging was already nerfed, they were first with engineers and rangers iirc.
Hmm… what’s that thing thieves have lots and lots of access to that allows them to escape, restart fights, gain health, remove conditions… oh yeah – Stealth.
No stability? Lyssa Runes every 45 seconds says, ‘hi’. Consume Plasma says, ‘hi’. Dagger Storm says, ‘hi’.
And armor? Please. Thieves are a medium armor class. Elementalists and Mesmers are light. So no points on that argument, either.
For all those things related to stealth you need to trait and not everybody wants to play (against) “perma stealth” thief. If you do not trait for that you will get same stealth engi or mesmer has access to as well.
Also being in stealth all the time doesn’t conquest points neither kill enemies.
Lyssa runes? Available to every profession and it is not class specific.
Consume plasma only against mesmers. Both of them has cast time in example mentioned with basilisk venom.
Daggerstorm has stability of course on 90 sec CD, 8sec of stability. It is on par with guardians or warriors stability, isn’kitten Using it to immediately cancel it or being big target shouting kill me with melee in two hits isn’t always the best idea, but that is off topic, so sorry for that.
And ele and mesmer both have invulnerabilities, ele can also have quite good uptime of protection (around 90% with specific runeset, 30%+ without). Please read before you decide to release your frustration next time.
/edit: I am not saying it is ideal state but it is like Anet designed it. I disagree with many things on that topic. I would much rather see removal of stealth and moving thief to more assassin like class like in GW1. Where combo chains were used instead of spamming one button, but this is completely unrelated to this thread.
(edited by Ihales.3820)
Hahaha man, these forums, it’s like hotjoin but with words
@OP: Change the title to “Too much evade”. Your current title talks about dodges but your post talks about evades. It makes it seem like you don’t know the difference (which I doubt is the case) and so most people won’t take your post seriously.
Hahaha man, these forums, it’s like hotjoin but with words
Ah, wonderfully put! Have my like.
Are you a poet?
Cred to Latinkuro
Gw2 is a masterpiece at it’s foundation. Content-wise however…
How about we just nerf thief damage, evades, armor (make them light armor class), boons, condi removal, CC, mobility, and stealth?
These changes should put thieves in a really good place balance wise.
(edited by the sober ninja.6539)
Because thieves don’t have the access to other ways of surviving that other professions have.
/thread
=P
They nerfed ranger endurance regen, while feline grace stayed untouched. Feline Grace still stacks with vigor and provides thieves with a metric ton of dodges.
Same with warrior. Signet of Stamina still exists and now warriors can actually dodge more than rangers.
Power based rangers only have 5k more hp than thieves but have none of the dodging, garbage defense, and none of the burst.
So cry me a river about thieves’ survivability when power rangers and engineers have significantly less survival and none of the effective burst.
So cry me a river about thieves’ survivability when power rangers and engineers have significantly less survival and none of the effective burst.
Lol engineers have survivability issues? What game are you playing?
For all those things related to stealth you need to trait and not everybody wants to play (against) “perma stealth” thief. If you do not trait for that you will get same stealth engi or mesmer has access to as well.
Also being in stealth all the time doesn’t conquest points neither kill enemies.Lyssa runes? Available to every profession and it is not class specific.
Consume plasma only against mesmers. Both of them has cast time in example mentioned with basilisk venom.
Daggerstorm has stability of course on 90 sec CD, 8sec of stability. It is on par with guardians or warriors stability, isn’kitten Using it to immediately cancel it or being big target shouting kill me with melee in two hits isn’t always the best idea, but that is off topic, so sorry for that.And ele and mesmer both have invulnerabilities, ele can also have quite good uptime of protection (around 90% with specific runeset, 30%+ without). Please read before you decide to release your frustration next time.
I can read. Your argument holds no water. You stated thieves don’t have stability. I cited 3 examples where a thief has access to stability (a good amount of it, too). You tried to argue thieves have to ‘trait’ for stealth, which is not true.
Please play a thief for a while before you make a post trying to rationalize a defense for the profession.
@OP: Change the title to “Too much evade”. Your current title talks about dodges but your post talks about evades. It makes it seem like you don’t know the difference (which I doubt is the case) and so most people won’t take your post seriously.
“Too much dodge” is in reference to the developer statement that there is too much dodging in the game.
So cry me a river about thieves’ survivability when power rangers and engineers have significantly less survival and none of the effective burst.
Lol engineers have survivability issues? What game are you playing?
POWER ENGINEERS POWER ENGINEERS POWER ENGINEERS.
NOT ALL ENGINEERS ARE CONDI BUNKERS WITH PISTOL SHIELD AND 2K+ TOUGHNESS
So cry me a river about thieves’ survivability when power rangers and engineers have significantly less survival and none of the effective burst.
Lol engineers have survivability issues? What game are you playing?
A non decap bunker engi using zerker amulet has less survival than a thief and yet less effective burst. I do increase my survival a lot by taking the stealth on elixir but that’s on a pretty long cooldown. That’s how awesome the stealth mechanic is.
I’m tired of people constantly thinking the whole engineer profession is defined by bunker engineers. I can’t wait until they nerf AR so that build dies.
“I’m bad at this game! Let’s find a scapegoat to blame all of my problems on!”
That seems to be what a pathetically large portion of unskilled mesmers are saying right now.
First, I’ve already discussed why that second video really can’t be taken seriously, at least, certainly not in real play.
As for the mentioned skills…
- Withdraw- D/X thieves certainly don’t have access to this skill. Either way, I fail to see how the evade on this skill is any stronger than the Block on Shelter, the full condi cleanse on Consume Conditions, the more flexible condi cleanse on Healing Turret (combined with regeneration and allied healing), the condi cleanse, Water Field, allied heal, and regeneration on Healing Spring- whatever. In all truth, Withdraw is a somewhat average skill.
- PW is only available to one weapon set. It’s also a root, which makes it vulnerable after the animation finishes (easier to predict how the thief is going to maneuver). The problems with PW are much deeper than just the evasion.
- FS- available to virtually no thief build in the current meta because of how badly S/D is looked upon. Either way, there’s a significant after cast on the skill, and (as I’ve written about recently) you can generally take out S/D just through brute force anyways (last paragraph).
- DS- an annoying skill, but it’s extremely difficult to use without instantaneously losing the strategic battle (and when I say “difficult”, I don’t mean that skilled players can do it- I mean that it’s rare that you can just use DS and still cap/decap/avoid the decapping of a point). Not to mention, the skill does virtually nonexistent damage.
- RFI- wow, a utility on a 60s CD that gives you a 3/4s evade!?!?! OP pl0x nerf.
- Hastened Replenishment- LOL. There is, to my knowledge, exactly one thief in sPvP that uses this trait. Ironically enough, that’s me. However, to think that the trait is used for defense by allowing you to evade is an absolutely massive mistake- the trait serves a very significant offensive purpose, as a matter of fact. Not that you’d read that anywhere or hear it from any other player.
By the way, when you saw my build a couple of months ago, which used this trait, didn’t you say that my theory crafting was “a bit off”? LOL.
Also, I could just as easily argue (about mesmer) that “no profession, no build has this much access to clones and team teleportation, and it’s pretty bad.” That doesn’t make Mes OP.
Ihales hit the nail on the head with his/her post.
Because it is their defense mechanism. They don’t have protection, stability, immunity, blocks, invulnerability, high armor and HP or any other damage mitigating ability most other classes have. And their dodging was already nerfed, they were first with engineers and rangers iirc.
Hmm… what’s that thing thieves have lots and lots of access to that allows them to escape, restart fights, gain health, remove conditions… oh yeah – Stealth.
No stability? Lyssa Runes every 45 seconds says, ‘hi’. Consume Plasma says, ‘hi’. Dagger Storm says, ‘hi’.
And armor? Please. Thieves are a medium armor class. Elementalists and Mesmers are light. So no points on that argument, either.
Stealth is virtually inaccessible to S/P and S/D. D/X has virtually no access to evasion.
You can’t get Lyssa Runes every 45 seconds with Dagger Storm, and both DS and Basi are pretty bad elites.
Consume Plasma is a profession mechanic. Distortion says hi.
Dagger Storm… Go back to PvE.
So cry me a river about thieves’ survivability when power rangers and engineers have significantly less survival and none of the effective burst.
Lol engineers have survivability issues? What game are you playing?
If you actually read what he wrote, he stated pretty clearly power rangers and engineers which means no defense and full out berserker. They are very squishy and easy to kill, but they will drop you in heart beat if you don’t’ know what they can do.
@OP: Change the title to “Too much evade”. Your current title talks about dodges but your post talks about evades. It makes it seem like you don’t know the difference (which I doubt is the case) and so most people won’t take your post seriously.
“Too much dodge” is in reference to the developer statement that there is too much dodging in the game.
Dodging = vigor
Evades = utility or weapon skill
It is vigor that the developers were discussing.
- FS- available to virtually no thief build in the current meta because of how badly S/D is looked upon. Either way, there’s a significant after cast on the skill, and (as I’ve written about recently) you can generally take out S/D just through brute force anyways (last paragraph).
I hope everyone believes you that S/D is underpowered. (laughs manically)
I would much rather see removal of stealth and moving thief to more assassin like class like in GW1. Where combo chains were used instead of spamming one button, but this is completely unrelated to this thread.
Actually, both are rather subpar class concepts, and typically either broken or useless/unviable outside very niche formats/roles. However the new-age version managed to outdo the original in terms of kittentiness by adding stealth and ridiculous access to dodges&evasion while replacing combo chains and cooldowns with a mechanic that may allow, depending on build spec, a nigh endless upkeep of one or several abovementioned class features. The mechanic (i.e. initiative) in and off itself possibly wouldn’t be so bad, if it actually functioned more like energy in GW1 (without myriad options to boost the regen/gains via passives).
(edited by KarlaGrey.5903)
“I’m bad at this game! Let’s find a scapegoat to blame all of my problems on!”
That seems to be what a pathetically large portion of unskilled mesmers are saying right now.
“I’m not OP. Everyone else is bad at this game” That seems to be what the overwhelming majority of pathetically unskilled thieves are saying right now. Reminds me of the World of Roguecraft days. God there were so many bad rogues who thought they were great. Then the class got balanced and they had kitten-fits because they realized they were actually terrible at PvP.
World of Roguecraft = GW2 today
“I’m bad at this game! Let’s find a scapegoat to blame all of my problems on!”
That seems to be what a pathetically large portion of unskilled mesmers are saying right now.
“I’m not OP. Everyone else is bad at this game” That seems to be what the overwhelming majority of pathetically unskilled thieves are saying right now. Reminds me of the World of Roguecraft days. God there were so many bad rogues who thought they were great. Then the class got balanced and they had kitten-fits because they realized they were actually terrible at PvP.
World of Roguecraft = GW2 today
You seem to have forgotten to quote the section after that, where Arg provides examples, evidence, and the logic behind his assertions. I’m sure it was just an accident rather than a deliberate choice due to your inability to counter any of his points in a logical manner.
You also seem to have omitted your own section where you attempt to prove, in any way, that your assertions are more than just hot air. Just another oversight I’m sure; I look forward to reading your well thought out, fact based counterpoints.
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
(edited by evilapprentice.6379)
- FS- available to virtually no thief build in the current meta because of how badly S/D is looked upon. Either way, there’s a significant after cast on the skill, and (as I’ve written about recently) you can generally take out S/D just through brute force anyways (last paragraph).
I hope everyone believes you that S/D is underpowered. (laughs manically)
I never said it’s UP, I said that it’s looked down upon because of how good D/P and S/P are. Otherwise, if you take away all of the clearly OP builds in this game., I personally think that S/D is a fairly average weaponset. I’ve played it so much that I know every counter to it, and I thus have fairly good results against the weaponset with all five of my toons (including Mesmer).
“I’m bad at this game! Let’s find a scapegoat to blame all of my problems on!”
That seems to be what a pathetically large portion of unskilled mesmers are saying right now.
“I’m not OP. Everyone else is bad at this game” That seems to be what the overwhelming majority of pathetically unskilled thieves are saying right now. Reminds me of the World of Roguecraft days. God there were so many bad rogues who thought they were great. Then the class got balanced and they had kitten-fits because they realized they were actually terrible at PvP.
World of Roguecraft = GW2 today
Dude. You pretty much offered up Dagger Storm as being viable in sPvP. It ain’t.
Then you put up Hastened Replenishment and implied that it was so good and common that it should be considered in this discussion of thief initiative and thus thief evasion. Again, you stepped way out of the bounds of your knowledge.
Even Countless, who made that second vid, didn’t describe it as anything other than “taking a jab” at thief’s evasion, and now you’re trying to put it up as some kind of solid evidence that thief’s evasion is overpowered.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen you (or, at least, it’s been a while since I’ve seen you) write a post not comparing Mesmers to thieves, and then complaining about how OP thieves are. That’s pretty sad. As Evil said, you’re all claims with no evidence, just like so many other complaining Mesmers. I can make up all kinds of silly reasons why Mesmer is insanely OP and is better than every other class in the game, but I refuse to do so because I always provide some kind of evidence to base my claims on, and in this case, there would be none to support me. You, on the other hand, don’t seen quite as logically inclined.