Guild Wars 2

Forget the formulas, I tested it. The chieftain is a great test because he always opens with the same hit which apparently cannot crit.

Test done on Ranger:
Upping my toughness by 1200 points decreased damage by 33%. Upping my vitality by 1200 points increased health pool by 75%. Considering how bursty this game is, toughness desperately needs a redesign and to apply (perhaps especially) to condition damage.

Enough said.

You really want a bunker meta back?

Btw, protection – a single quite common boon – giving the equivalent of 1200 stat points seems more broken (if your numbers are accurate).

Savvy.3258:

Considering how bursty this game is, toughness desperately needs a redesign and to apply (perhaps especially) to condition damage.

Why?

Vitali.5039:

Savvy.3258:

Considering how bursty this game is, toughness desperately needs a redesign and to apply (perhaps especially) to condition damage.

Why?

obvious really, if you’re focusing on toughness and being tanky you’d expect it to be tanky to all damage, condis ignoring toughness is stupid.

Savvy.3258:

Forget the formulas, I tested it. The chieftain is a great test because he always opens with the same hit which apparently cannot crit.

Test done on Ranger:
Upping my toughness by 1200 points decreased damage by 33%. Upping my vitality by 1200 points increased health pool by 75%. Considering how bursty this game is, toughness desperately needs a redesign and to apply (perhaps especially) to condition damage.

Enough said.

Toughness vs power is fine as is. If it negated more damage then what do you thing would happen when you stack protection on top? Unkillable bunkers again.

As for condi damage….I’d rather a rework to condi in general

Liewec.2896:

Vitali.5039:

Savvy.3258:

Considering how bursty this game is, toughness desperately needs a redesign and to apply (perhaps especially) to condition damage.

Why?

obvious really, if you’re focusing on toughness and being tanky you’d expect it to be tanky to all damage, condis ignoring toughness is stupid.

I never quite understood that train of thought.
Toughness keeps you from getting hurt by direct damage, vitality makes you last longer against conditions, seems fine to me.

And it’s not like you have no way to counter conditions.

Liewec.2896:

Vitali.5039:

Savvy.3258:

Considering how bursty this game is, toughness desperately needs a redesign and to apply (perhaps especially) to condition damage.

Why?

obvious really, if you’re focusing on toughness and being tanky you’d expect it to be tanky to all damage, condis ignoring toughness is stupid.

What about all the wannabe MM bunker necro then?
Why make the condi clear useless when enough thougness is stacked?

MM Bunkers are useless against smart players, kite the minions around some terrain and kill the necro after youve kited the minions away…. Once theyre minions are gone they die so fast.

I have said MM cause with minions you can achieve the highest “permanent” toughness value, not cause MM necro is the hardest class to beat.

Taking a look at https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupter's_Fervor
should clarify to everyone cause thoughness shouldn’t reduce condi damage?

This is honestly a good idea imo. Toughness really is a useless stat to take at any point because no matter how much armor you have you will still be burst down within seconds. If not from the initial burst of the dmg, but by the condis that stack along with it.

There are also classes that suffer a great deal from condition removal so im all for this idea but only if they balance the class out a bit more.

Toughness really is in need of some major tweaks to bring it into line with other stats. Idc if we have a bunker meta again because at the moment, a lot of classes are bascially berserker bunkers as it is.

I find it strange how so many can argue in thread after thread that dire or TB armor OP because it gives persons too much sustain for the damage put out and in another thread others claim toughness as a “useless stat”.

Toughness is not useless. While it does nothing to prevent Condition damage it does impact power damage received . It is NOT Intended to prevent you from getting killed by power. It is intended to help mitigate between dodges and blocks and invulns which remain the primary sources of mitigation. For conditions damage added to those same dodges blocks there are cleanses which are the equivalent of toughness for that damage received that is not avoided outright.

Arguing that toughness useless because people can still be burst down is akin to arguing a cleanse is usless because people can still apply conditions. The intent of toughness and cleanses is not to gain 100 percent mitigation. It is intended to mitigate enough damage so as to allow you to kill an enemy before he can kill you. The enemy player does not have an advantage here. You are not a practice golem just passively soaking up damage.

Try a p/p power thief using unload against a low armor class and compare that same unload against a person with higher tougness and armor. The difference is significant meaning said theif has to use resources to take down an enemy with higher tougness which means more TIME for that enemy to counter.

Making toughness mitigate condition damage as well is just a bad idea all round. It will simply lead to heavy armor builds dominating at every level.

Vitali.5039:

I have said MM cause with minions you can achieve the highest “permanent” toughness value, not cause MM necro is the hardest class to beat.

Taking a look at https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupter's_Fervor
should clarify to everyone cause thoughness shouldn’t reduce condi damage?

the mm bunker typically takes death magic, typically they take the trait transfers condis on hit

Toughness is so useless they deleted Cleric amulet because they were bored right? Oh wait…

phantom.1675:

Toughness is so useless they deleted Cleric amulet because they were bored right? Oh wait…

Because Anet makes the best design choices, right? Oh wait…

NeXeD.3042:

Vitali.5039:

I have said MM cause with minions you can achieve the highest “permanent” toughness value, not cause MM necro is the hardest class to beat.

Taking a look at https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupter's_Fervor
should clarify to everyone cause thoughness shouldn’t reduce condi damage?

the mm bunker typically takes death magic, typically they take the trait transfers condis on hit

..so?

I actually agree with the OP. Toughness not being strong enough is a lot of the reason we have an entirely offensive meta in the game. Bunker builds in PvP can be a problem, but it’s more of a problem with specific skills than it is a general mechanics problem.

Or, another way to think of the problem is regarding mob design in PVE. Mobs hit slow and hard, which leads to dodge being overemphasized and passive defense being underemphasized in PvE combat. They should generally be made to hit faster for less damage.

I was about to say what toughness? Didn’t they remove that stat except for 1 or 2 amulets?

ok so make toughness effect condi damage, now everyone stops using condi because it cant bring down bunkers anymore…. everyon starts using toughness in combo with weakness application and protection boon…. now we just have a buncha idiots wacking each other with Pool Noodles.

Toughness is fine. 33% damage reduction is more valuable than 75% increase in base health.

Why? Because this thing called healing exists. The less damage you take, the less healing you need to stay alive. With vitality however you are still taking the full value of incoming damage which means you have to receiving healing on a 1:1 ratio to incoming damage, which is impossible because damage in this game way out scales healing.

Vitality is only really good against spikes, it’s terrible in any form of protracted fight.

Crinn.7864:

Toughness is fine. 33% damage reduction is more valuable than 75% increase in base health.

Why? Because this thing called healing exists. The less damage you take, the less healing you need to stay alive. With vitality however you are still taking the full value of incoming damage which means you have to receiving healing on a 1:1 ratio to incoming damage, which is impossible because damage in this game way out scales healing.

Vitality is only really good against spikes, it’s terrible in any form of protracted fight.

Vitality is also good against condition damage, while Toughness does nothing. I think Vitality is okay, I think Toughness and Healing Power are both generally underpowered.

I think it’s a bad system. I feel like toughness should be reworked so that it reduces damage by a fixed amount rather than by a percentage, so that minor hits can easily be shrugged off while heavy hits still need to be dodged.

Einlanzer.1627:

Crinn.7864:

Toughness is fine. 33% damage reduction is more valuable than 75% increase in base health.

Why? Because this thing called healing exists. The less damage you take, the less healing you need to stay alive. With vitality however you are still taking the full value of incoming damage which means you have to receiving healing on a 1:1 ratio to incoming damage, which is impossible because damage in this game way out scales healing.

Vitality is only really good against spikes, it’s terrible in any form of protracted fight.

Vitality is also good against condition damage, while Toughness does nothing. I think Vitality is okay, I think Toughness and Healing Power are both generally underpowered.

I think it’s a bad system. I feel like toughness should be reworked so that it reduces damage by a fixed amount rather than by a percentage, so that minor hits can easily be shrugged off while heavy hits still need to be dodged.

There is a reason why you no longer see an amulet with toughness and healing power. They compound extremely well. Not only is every point of health now worth more but you are healing for more as well.

Toughness reducing damage by a fixed amount would mean multi-hit skills would become far to weak.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

You really want a bunker meta back?

Btw, protection – a single quite common boon – giving the equivalent of 1200 stat points seems more broken (if your numbers are accurate).

Actually bunker could be a thing if game was ment towards player skills and team strategie in mind instead of the pve class design in a pitfight of “key smashing”.

Sigmoid.7082:

Einlanzer.1627:

Crinn.7864:

Toughness is fine. 33% damage reduction is more valuable than 75% increase in base health.

Why? Because this thing called healing exists. The less damage you take, the less healing you need to stay alive. With vitality however you are still taking the full value of incoming damage which means you have to receiving healing on a 1:1 ratio to incoming damage, which is impossible because damage in this game way out scales healing.

Vitality is only really good against spikes, it’s terrible in any form of protracted fight.

Vitality is also good against condition damage, while Toughness does nothing. I think Vitality is okay, I think Toughness and Healing Power are both generally underpowered.

I think it’s a bad system. I feel like toughness should be reworked so that it reduces damage by a fixed amount rather than by a percentage, so that minor hits can easily be shrugged off while heavy hits still need to be dodged.

There is a reason why you no longer see an amulet with toughness and healing power. They compound extremely well. Not only is every point of health now worth more but you are healing for more as well.

Toughness reducing damage by a fixed amount would mean multi-hit skills would become far to weak.

Multi hits would serve as skills with higher chance to apply procs.

iKeostuKen.2738:

Sigmoid.7082:

Einlanzer.1627:

Crinn.7864:

Toughness is fine. 33% damage reduction is more valuable than 75% increase in base health.

Why? Because this thing called healing exists. The less damage you take, the less healing you need to stay alive. With vitality however you are still taking the full value of incoming damage which means you have to receiving healing on a 1:1 ratio to incoming damage, which is impossible because damage in this game way out scales healing.

Vitality is only really good against spikes, it’s terrible in any form of protracted fight.

Vitality is also good against condition damage, while Toughness does nothing. I think Vitality is okay, I think Toughness and Healing Power are both generally underpowered.

I think it’s a bad system. I feel like toughness should be reworked so that it reduces damage by a fixed amount rather than by a percentage, so that minor hits can easily be shrugged off while heavy hits still need to be dodged.

There is a reason why you no longer see an amulet with toughness and healing power. They compound extremely well. Not only is every point of health now worth more but you are healing for more as well.

Toughness reducing damage by a fixed amount would mean multi-hit skills would become far to weak.

Multi hits would serve as skills with higher chance to apply procs.

So procs going to be more powerful to compensate for the lack of damage that any multihit skill would do with this change?

Sigmoid.7082:

iKeostuKen.2738:

Sigmoid.7082:

Einlanzer.1627:

Crinn.7864:

Toughness is fine. 33% damage reduction is more valuable than 75% increase in base health.

Why? Because this thing called healing exists. The less damage you take, the less healing you need to stay alive. With vitality however you are still taking the full value of incoming damage which means you have to receiving healing on a 1:1 ratio to incoming damage, which is impossible because damage in this game way out scales healing.

Vitality is only really good against spikes, it’s terrible in any form of protracted fight.

Vitality is also good against condition damage, while Toughness does nothing. I think Vitality is okay, I think Toughness and Healing Power are both generally underpowered.

I think it’s a bad system. I feel like toughness should be reworked so that it reduces damage by a fixed amount rather than by a percentage, so that minor hits can easily be shrugged off while heavy hits still need to be dodged.

There is a reason why you no longer see an amulet with toughness and healing power. They compound extremely well. Not only is every point of health now worth more but you are healing for more as well.

Toughness reducing damage by a fixed amount would mean multi-hit skills would become far to weak.

Multi hits would serve as skills with higher chance to apply procs.

So procs going to be more powerful to compensate for the lack of damage that any multihit skill would do with this change?

Ofc not. Why would we up damage if we want to make toughness better?
Multihits will stay the same as they are.

iKeostuKen.2738:

Sigmoid.7082:

iKeostuKen.2738:

Sigmoid.7082:

Einlanzer.1627:

Crinn.7864:

Toughness is fine. 33% damage reduction is more valuable than 75% increase in base health.

Why? Because this thing called healing exists. The less damage you take, the less healing you need to stay alive. With vitality however you are still taking the full value of incoming damage which means you have to receiving healing on a 1:1 ratio to incoming damage, which is impossible because damage in this game way out scales healing.

Vitality is only really good against spikes, it’s terrible in any form of protracted fight.

Vitality is also good against condition damage, while Toughness does nothing. I think Vitality is okay, I think Toughness and Healing Power are both generally underpowered.

I think it’s a bad system. I feel like toughness should be reworked so that it reduces damage by a fixed amount rather than by a percentage, so that minor hits can easily be shrugged off while heavy hits still need to be dodged.

There is a reason why you no longer see an amulet with toughness and healing power. They compound extremely well. Not only is every point of health now worth more but you are healing for more as well.

Toughness reducing damage by a fixed amount would mean multi-hit skills would become far to weak.

Multi hits would serve as skills with higher chance to apply procs.

So procs going to be more powerful to compensate for the lack of damage that any multihit skill would do with this change?

Ofc not. Why would we up damage if we want to make toughness better?
Multihits will stay the same as they are.

Flat damage reduction guts any skill that is multi hit. they would either need to be made more powerful as a base or something else. Its why its current % based since its universal regardless of the size of the hit.

Not to mention gutting multi hit skills would screw some classes over royally

Besides, Multi-hit skills already have a good counter in the game in the form of Retaliation. They don’t need more of one.

retaliaton… lol who in this game dies to retaliation? some one with 1st skill stucked on keyboard or a marcro burster., and retaliation does arround 240-300 damage…

just remove the cleaves from autos and give another role for retaliation, make people learn 2 play instead learn to spam faster than targets.

If toughness and healing power go too well together, then something needs to be done to reduce that effectiveness, and I don’t think nerfing either or is the way to go because then have one or the other becomes too weak. What needs to be done is reducing the healing gained from skills and traits. They did that to Auramancer healing, but they also removed Cleric’s amulet at the same time. Now Mender’s is the only option unless you want to hit as hard as throwing paper at someone (Magi).

Honestly, even without healing power, there are plenty of skills and traits that are too powerful. Anet already nerfed Mesmer’s healing through Inspiration. Druids have no real problem staying alive without HP. Warriors don’t need HP for AH and HS to be necessary in all builds.

Reduce healing through skills and traits. Then if players want to get back the same healing (or slightly more healing) as before when they weren’t running HP, they’ll need to spec for it. This way HP becomes more effective overall, but not OP with toughness.

And in the end, if HP will always be OP with toughness, remove it. I’m serious. Just remove the stat entirely if it’s causing so many problems. In its place, you can add traits that increase healing done. For example, Engineers have a trait that gives them HP whenever they have regeneration. Simply change it so that healing they do is increased by x amount with regen.

Also, once again, fix conditions. Burning stacks too easily, bleed does too much damage, chill is too effective, and so many skills apply conditions and allow conditions to be reapplied with ease. On top of that, there’s a boon that just flat out makes you immune to conditions instead of giving a reduction. Honestly, it should be like protection. With a nerf to conditions, you can nerf resistance, thus reducing powercreep.

Einlanzer.1627:

Or, another way to think of the problem is regarding mob design in PVE. Mobs hit slow and hard, which leads to dodge being overemphasized and passive defense being underemphasized in PvE combat. They should generally be made to hit faster for less damage.

That is literally the entire point, you’re not supposed to rely on passive defenses to facetank everything. You’re supposed to dodge or use active defenses.

Aeolus.3615:

just remove the cleaves from autos and give another role for retaliation, make people learn 2 play instead learn to spam faster than targets.

Did an autoattack kill your parents or something? This is a really dumb hill to die on, but you seem bound and determined to do it.

Savvy.3258:

Forget the formulas, I tested it. The chieftain is a great test because he always opens with the same hit which apparently cannot crit.

Test done on Ranger:
Upping my toughness by 1200 points decreased damage by 33%. Upping my vitality by 1200 points increased health pool by 75%. Considering how bursty this game is, toughness desperately needs a redesign and to apply (perhaps especially) to condition damage.

Enough said.

What you are leaving out is, your heals are flat numbers. So your healing becomes more effective with more toughness.

Faux Play.6104:

Savvy.3258:

Forget the formulas, I tested it. The chieftain is a great test because he always opens with the same hit which apparently cannot crit.

Test done on Ranger:
Upping my toughness by 1200 points decreased damage by 33%. Upping my vitality by 1200 points increased health pool by 75%. Considering how bursty this game is, toughness desperately needs a redesign and to apply (perhaps especially) to condition damage.

Enough said.

What you are leaving out is, your heals are flat numbers. So your healing becomes more effective with more toughness.

Finally, after almost an entire page of people talking around the matter someone mentions this.

Toughness increases you healing effectiveness, vitality does not. It’s also the reason why healing power and toughness synergise well, while vitality and healing power do not (not to this extent).

How does toughness benefit more from heals?

iKeostuKen.2738:

How does toughness benefit more from heals?

If you determine the effectiveness of a heal by dividing the amount healed by the total health pool you have and assume the amount healed is constant between a toughness focused build and a vitality focused build, then you would heal a higher percentage of your health if you have a toughness focused build than a vitality focused one

Rednova.5283:

iKeostuKen.2738:

How does toughness benefit more from heals?

If you determine the effectiveness of a heal by dividing the amount healed by the total health pool you have and assume the amount healed is constant between a toughness focused build and a vitality focused build, then you would heal a higher percentage of your health if you have a toughness focused build than a vitality focused one

Doesnt really mean it benefits more, you just have a smaller gap of health to heal. With vitality you can heal at a earlier time and possibly even get the heal off through the cast time if your in some heavy pressure. toughness not so much because you die jsut as fast as someone with none.

iKeostuKen.2738:

Rednova.5283:

iKeostuKen.2738:

How does toughness benefit more from heals?

If you determine the effectiveness of a heal by dividing the amount healed by the total health pool you have and assume the amount healed is constant between a toughness focused build and a vitality focused build, then you would heal a higher percentage of your health if you have a toughness focused build than a vitality focused one

Doesnt really mean it benefits more, you just have a smaller gap of health to heal. With vitality you can heal at a earlier time and possibly even get the heal off through the cast time if your in some heavy pressure. toughness not so much because you die jsut as fast as someone with none.

Theoretically it does mean it would benefit you more in a prolonged fight. I’m not saying I would take toughness over vitality in PvP, but toughness isn’t useless. If you’re being focused in either build chances are you wont get that heal off if any of the players focusing you know how to focus. Saying you die just as fast with or without toughness is just a false statement.

You may have a smaller gap to heal but you also mitigate more damage than if you were to just eat the full damage in a vitality build. This mitigation over a prolonged fight is the reason toughness isn’t useless.

Exactly. Toughness wouldn’t be doing its job if your still able to be burst down the same as someone who isn’t using any. There should be a significant notice of someone who is using it or not. Its also not up to par with any of the other stats. Having no power over having some is very noticeable. Same with precision when you crit consistently or not. Toughness, you can never really tell besides possibly 2-3 more hits unless there loaded with condis, then its a useless stat.

It needs more to counter this powercreeping style the game has adopted. Toughness should possibly be changed to resilence and effect both power and conditions damage.

iKeostuKen.2738:

Exactly. Toughness wouldn’t be doing its job if your still able to be burst down the same as someone who isn’t using any. There should be a significant notice of someone who is using it or not. Its also not up to par with any of the other stats. Having no power over having some is very noticeable. Same with precision when you crit consistently or not. Toughness, you can never really tell besides possibly 2-3 more hits unless there loaded with condis, then its a useless stat.

It needs more to counter this powercreeping style the game has adopted. Toughness should possibly be changed to resilence and effect both power and conditions damage.

Im not sure what to say here because I find toughness very noticeable either on myself on on my targets.

Conditions have their own way to being dealt with, adding more would mean lowering the amount of removal in the game.

iKeostuKen.2738:

Rednova.5283:

iKeostuKen.2738:

How does toughness benefit more from heals?

If you determine the effectiveness of a heal by dividing the amount healed by the total health pool you have and assume the amount healed is constant between a toughness focused build and a vitality focused build, then you would heal a higher percentage of your health if you have a toughness focused build than a vitality focused one

Doesnt really mean it benefits more, you just have a smaller gap of health to heal. With vitality you can heal at a earlier time and possibly even get the heal off through the cast time if your in some heavy pressure. toughness not so much because you die jsut as fast as someone with none.

Player A:

10,000 hit points
50% damage reduction
1,000 heal every 5 seconds
500 damage per second before damage reduction

= effective hitpoints 20,000
= time to die = 156 seconds

Player B:
20,000 hit points
0% damage reduction
1,000 heal every 5 seconds
500 damage per second before damage reduction

= effective hitpoints 20,000
= time to die = 63 seconds

Vitality is a buffer and yes it allows the first heal to get used earlier but that’s it. It functions as a buffer. After that first heal though, unless you are able to constantly heal for more damage than you take (which is pointless in this discussion because then your time to die goes to infinite).

I’m not sure where you were going with toughness providing no benefit. When you have less hitpoints but take less damage from attacks you effectively have the same or more health (called effective health or hitpoints). Granted this is only against direct damage in this game, hence why toughness is a counter to direct damage and vitality to condition damage (combined with condition removal). It’s also the reason why toughness and healing power synergise so well as stated above and why Arenanet has removed a lot of toughness gear from spvp.

At the same time, high health pools will be affected more adversly by any type of % of max health modifier or attack. We don’t have those in GW2 pvp yet (pve they are quite common now in raids) but GW1 had them (deep wound).

Cyninja.2954:

iKeostuKen.2738:

Rednova.5283:

iKeostuKen.2738:

How does toughness benefit more from heals?

If you determine the effectiveness of a heal by dividing the amount healed by the total health pool you have and assume the amount healed is constant between a toughness focused build and a vitality focused build, then you would heal a higher percentage of your health if you have a toughness focused build than a vitality focused one

Doesnt really mean it benefits more, you just have a smaller gap of health to heal. With vitality you can heal at a earlier time and possibly even get the heal off through the cast time if your in some heavy pressure. toughness not so much because you die jsut as fast as someone with none.

Player A:

10,000 hit points
50% damage reduction
1,000 heal every 5 seconds
500 damage per second before damage reduction

= effective hitpoints 20,000
= time to die = 156 seconds

Player B:
20,000 hit points
0% damage reduction
1,000 heal every 5 seconds
500 damage per second before damage reduction

= effective hitpoints 20,000
= time to die = 63 seconds

Vitality is a buffer and yes it allows the first heal to get used earlier but that’s it. It functions as a buffer. After that first heal though, unless you are able to constantly heal for more damage than you take (which is pointless in this discussion because then your time to die goes to infinite).

I’m not sure where you were going with toughness providing no benefit. When you have less hitpoints but take less damage from attacks you effectively have the same or more health (called effective health or hitpoints). Granted this is only against direct damage in this game, hence why toughness is a counter to direct damage and vitality to condition damage (combined with condition removal). It’s also the reason why toughness and healing power synergise so well as stated above and why Arenanet has removed a lot of toughness gear from spvp.

At the same time, high health pools will be affected more adversly by any type of % of max health modifier or attack. We don’t have those in GW2 pvp yet (pve they are quite common now in raids) but GW1 had them (deep wound).

I am not certain what you mean here regarding there no health based modifiers in PvP in Gw2. Would not executioner, scholars runes and the like qualify? Ie if your health easier to keep above 90 percent you get that extra 10 percent damage and if your health easier to keep above 50 percent (both due to a smaller gap to heal based upon like heals) the thief with executioner will have less damage inflicted on you.

Are you talking about something else?

the player A/B thing cyninja did is great. If you can repeat that with armor-ignoring condis, you’d see the vitality player survive twice as long as the toughness user.
Due to this, the vitality player gets to use his health based buffs for longer against a condition enemy.

If toughness affects conditions, vitality becomes useless and then toughness tank meta happens. Bad idea.

Crinn.7864:

Toughness is fine. 33% damage reduction is more valuable than 75% increase in base health.

Why? Because this thing called healing exists. The less damage you take, the less healing you need to stay alive. With vitality however you are still taking the full value of incoming damage which means you have to receiving healing on a 1:1 ratio to incoming damage, which is impossible because damage in this game way out scales healing.

Vitality is only really good against spikes, it’s terrible in any form of protracted fight.

One of the very few competent postings in this thread. Thanks!

I have one addition:
In real gameplay scenarios there is a sweetspot when toughness becomes more valuable than vitality. This is somewhere around 17 to 20k HP. The reason are the average healing capabilities of all classes. If you have 30k HP it is almost imposible for any class to heal this up again during a fight to make use of vitality as a sustain stat.

Einlanzer.1627:

Vitality is also good against condition damage, while Toughness does nothing. I think Vitality is okay, I think Toughness and Healing Power are both generally underpowered.

If you buff healing power (not just tweak some skills) then vitality and toughness become stronger. This will mess up everything.

KrHome.1920:

If you have 30k HP it is almost imposible for any class to heal this up again during a fight to make use of vitality as a sustain stat.

any necromancer can use vitality as sustain stat due to Life Force amount depends on maximum health while Life Force generations is % of maximum amount of Life Force. For example:
with Soul Reaping tree your AA with staff gives 4% LF per hit
19212 HP = your maximum Life Force is 15242 and u will gain 610 LF per hit
31212 HP = your maximum Life Force is 24767 and u will gain 991 LF per hit.
So, necromancers with more health can soak more damage in shroud and regain LF a bit more effective.

Cyninja.2954:

iKeostuKen.2738:

Rednova.5283:

iKeostuKen.2738:

How does toughness benefit more from heals?

If you determine the effectiveness of a heal by dividing the amount healed by the total health pool you have and assume the amount healed is constant between a toughness focused build and a vitality focused build, then you would heal a higher percentage of your health if you have a toughness focused build than a vitality focused one

Doesnt really mean it benefits more, you just have a smaller gap of health to heal. With vitality you can heal at a earlier time and possibly even get the heal off through the cast time if your in some heavy pressure. toughness not so much because you die jsut as fast as someone with none.

Player A:

10,000 hit points
50% damage reduction
1,000 heal every 5 seconds
500 damage per second before damage reduction

= effective hitpoints 20,000
= time to die = 156 seconds

Player B:
20,000 hit points
0% damage reduction
1,000 heal every 5 seconds
500 damage per second before damage reduction

= effective hitpoints 20,000
= time to die = 63 seconds

Vitality is a buffer and yes it allows the first heal to get used earlier but that’s it. It functions as a buffer. After that first heal though, unless you are able to constantly heal for more damage than you take (which is pointless in this discussion because then your time to die goes to infinite).

I’m not sure where you were going with toughness providing no benefit. When you have less hitpoints but take less damage from attacks you effectively have the same or more health (called effective health or hitpoints). Granted this is only against direct damage in this game, hence why toughness is a counter to direct damage and vitality to condition damage (combined with condition removal). It’s also the reason why toughness and healing power synergise so well as stated above and why Arenanet has removed a lot of toughness gear from spvp.

At the same time, high health pools will be affected more adversly by any type of % of max health modifier or attack. We don’t have those in GW2 pvp yet (pve they are quite common now in raids) but GW1 had them (deep wound).

While this is some nice math. Its not practical in anyway to the current state of the game. Especially adding in the fact that Vitality stats can be bundled with Healing power, unlike Toughness.

Toughness actually provides no actual benefit because there really is no significant change in the TTK. A burst is still basically a burst that can take you down, opposed to being stacked with vitality to notice the change in how fast your health depletes when stacked with conditions.

Solution: reduce protection bonus (to like 15..20%). Increase damage reduction with toughness by 15%. Ez.

iKeostuKen.2738:

(…) burst that can take you down, opposed to being stacked with vitality to notice the change in how fast your health depletes when stacked with conditions.

Thats actually not fault to how thoughness work, but how classes are brokenly designed for pve mainly.
And the more (almost one shot gameplay) there is the harder is to tell how trully skilled a players is, reason theres quite some power creep gameplay on pvp, since Anet made the game for even bad players look decent with some gimmicks and button rotations.

Aeolus.3615:

iKeostuKen.2738:

(…) burst that can take you down, opposed to being stacked with vitality to notice the change in how fast your health depletes when stacked with conditions.

Thats actually not fault to how thoughness work, but how classes are brokenly designed for pve mainly.
And the more (almost one shot gameplay) there is the harder is to tell how trully skilled a players is, reason theres quite some power creep gameplay on pvp, since Anet made the game for even bad players look decent with some gimmicks and button rotations.

Thats actually another big issue. But how it is now, Toughness really has no point in pvp at the moment, which is why you rarely see anyone running a 1200 toughness amulet.

iKeostuKen.2738:

Aeolus.3615:

iKeostuKen.2738:

(…) burst that can take you down, opposed to being stacked with vitality to notice the change in how fast your health depletes when stacked with conditions.

Thats actually not fault to how thoughness work, but how classes are brokenly designed for pve mainly.
And the more (almost one shot gameplay) there is the harder is to tell how trully skilled a players is, reason theres quite some power creep gameplay on pvp, since Anet made the game for even bad players look decent with some gimmicks and button rotations.

Thats actually another big issue. But how it is now, Toughness really has no point in pvp at the moment, which is why you rarely see anyone running a 1200 toughness amulet.

The only way to make people run a toughness amulet is if they are bunker/sturdy and hit like a full zerker.

Some classes could have a hold build to force 2vs1 with poor damage and decent support so players had to make a choice(classes with poor damage die in a few “2” seconds since they dont put offensive pressure at the momment).

But players want a easy win, as they believe theyre builds should 1shot every one due their skill, for the another hand.. anet@balance is the worst companie i ever saw they cant find a sweet spot.
This game isnt about strategie nor sacrifice one thing for another either its about kill faster than emeny kills u cap point and go cap another point.

I think theres alot of things at fault here player side and dev’s side to achieve a good gameplay.

You don’t see anyone running 1200 vitality amulet either. Because 4-stat amulets don’t exist with major vitality or toughness and those are better than 3-stat amulets. Amulets like wanderer, demolisher or paladin (sometimes even rabid) are used though, so claiming that toughness doesn’t see any use in PvP is wrong.

If you get oneshot all the time that might be an issue with your build or playstyle, not with stats.

iKeostuKen.2738:

This is honestly a good idea imo. Toughness really is a useless stat to take at any point because no matter how much armor you have you will still be burst down within seconds.

LOL

We have considered toughness as pretty much the most important stat in the game for some time. It obviously depends on what youre playing but toughness should not be made any more effective than it is.