Guild Wars 2

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2622702

full ele burst with arcane = 20% deathshroud. This is just an example of how much damage mitigation a necro has access to.

And i wondered why i saw phanta as a necro sailormoon chick in the mists :P

broken meta, even more broken

nice!

Yeah this is the combo I 1 shot things with. It’s cool.

Both. Spectral armor, then going into death shroud with protection up, and taking 20% life force damage from a full earth-air elementalist burst combo (hurl-earthquake-lflash-air discharge-lightning strike-double arcana-rtl)
That combo used to deal anywhere from 10 to 17k damage depending on crits.

I seriously hope this gets addressed before saturday, can’t go into a competitive tournament with something game-breaking like that.

baaaaaaaaaaahahahahhahahahahahhaa…..

wait… wait…

can’t… hold… it… BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Funny thing 1: Look the damage phanta got from retal !!
Funny thing 2:Phanta wasnt even on weakness ! :P

JonathanSharp.7094:

Having a hard time seeing the vid (I’m in China).

Is it showing a Necro tanking a big hi IN death shroud, or using spectrals?

Explaining why the kitten you still not be able to fix necro’s. Seriously I am done with that. This class is broken – its not slightly OP – or borderline OP its broken. Fix it…
You not even able to nerf things. People telling you Dhuumfire is OP … fear is broken and you just shut your eyes and say: "Bahh but Karl is otherwise not able to 1vs1 ". You can’t predict this kitten…this is what you have to consider….

omfg yes my bunker necro is even more viable!!!! This is amazing xD

This was a video of a guy popping DS with spectral armor from a single damage source. Not a necro that got stunned and is getting trained by more than one person throughout the entire game.

What a stupid whine thread, when Phantaram’s entire little combo could have similarly been nullified by a distortion or a blurred Frenzy or a mist form/arcane shield or shield block or endure pain.

Ask people what happens when that death shroud runs out and you’ve got no teleports or disengages. You flop over like a fish as you can’t peel anything off you.

JonathanSharp.7094:

I just think it’s cute that we have this thread going concurrently with a thread that’s saying Necro’s have no survivability, death shroud is horrible, and that Necro’s, in order to be viable, need to start PvP with life force.

:)

In order to do this test, that necro started with Life force, just wanted to point that out there to you, but also, Not everyone want’s to take spectral armor, a 60 second cd just to be viable. What about MMs?! What ever happened to "We want less survivability only on the spectrals, and more for all builds?

No one brings Axe. No one brings Spectral Grasp. No one brings Spectral Armor. No one cares about those skills. (Exaggeration, but sadly mostly true) Spectral Walk is probably the only thing you buffed for LF Generation that anyone uses. Even Shadow Fiend is barely used.

I sent Allie a PM containing information on why Necromancer’s survivability is awful and suggestions to improve it, I’ll send it to you if you want, but I can’t post it on the forums because it’s too big. If nothing else, you’ll gain a bit of insight into why people are furious.

I use dagger/staff, and it was okay, but versus things with evades, (thieves/mesmers/rangers) or just some ranged classes, especially as MM I’m still having a very hard time getting it, to be effective I can’t sit in staff spamming staff 1, and I have to make sure im in range AND getting full sequences off to get dagger 1 LF, which versus a lot of builds/classes can be very hard to do. I don’t know how many times ive died to thieves and mesmers just because I can’t get enough uptime just to get LF.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Also, a Warrior with an OH Shield can block all of this, but I’m not sure that makes Warriors OP in tPvP.

Just an aside.

only if the warrior pops stability as well, since that burst relies on a 2s kd to land.

I’ll be honest, Evades are my #1 thing driving me from PvP right now. We’re worried about gaining a little extra LF 1v1 here, versus an evade that can ignore 50 missiles at once if they all hit at the same time and you can’t cc them while evading, add on stealth. As MM it’s a hard work around.

Teleports cause minions to have to slowly get back to the target.
Stealths make them return to you, effectively doing about the same thing.
Evades eat so many CCs on classes that have too much evade (thieves/mesmers/rangers)
And stealth/evade just slows down my ability to chain to even get life force.

Just some thoughts to keep in mind.

Zenith.7301:

This was a video of a guy popping DS with spectral armor from a single damage source. Not a necro that got stunned and is getting trained by more than one person throughout the entire game.

What a stupid whine thread, when Phantaram’s entire little combo could have similarly been nullified by a distortion or a blurred Frenzy or a mist form/arcane shield or shield block or endure pain.

Ask people what happens when that death shroud runs out and you’ve got no teleports or disengages. You flop over like a fish as you can’t peel anything off you.

Oh yeah because this game is about balancing around 5vs1….
Ok than I want to have old bunker ele back because he could also be killed by multiple enemys ./sarcasm off*

Ah full deathshroud is gamebreaking currently. A necro does way to much unavoidable and instant attacks to allow so much sustain. Its embarrassing that necros who just spam autoattack are more valuable than mesmer, ele and warrior.
“Oh did the necro applied his fear mark? No it was the Putrid Mark …or no it was the Mark of blood..Noo..seriously cant tell…Its just the usual necro hand shake….”
And Mesmers distortion will indeed kitten the combo. However mesmer have to sacrifice their clones and are 1shot targets with predictable attacks.

Every developer should ashamed watch helseth stream. He is raging but the core of what he is saying is sadly true.

I don’t think those arguments necessarily equate. In my opinion, I don’t believe people are saying that necromancers cannot survive a burst combo 1 on 1 when they have a decent amount of life force.

CAVEAT: I have not yet tested the ‘bug fixes’ to Death Shroud damage yet.

The issue, as far as I can see it, is that there is a distinct vulnerability at the start of a fight, when a Necromancer’s Death Shroud is at 0, that, when combined with it’s lack of disengage, makes it a prime target for an “assist train” (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Assist%20train)

I believe Flesh Wurm is the answer to this, for some builds; perhaps some builds need a different kind of disengage. Flesh Wurm gives the Necromancer a means of disengaging the assist train. However, in my opinion, it’s something that could be made to be a more reliable disengage. It suffers from 2 setbacks – LOS and it can be killed. If Flesh Wurm were given a longer cooldown but ignored LOS and Necrotic Traversal was, even for a short duration, available after the Flesh Wurm was killed (even if that required an Adept Major), I think Necromancers would have a counter to the assist train. It would come at the cost of a utility slot, but would be a fair trade off.

I’m not a game developer or one of those ‘cool guys’ that gets to sit in on State of the Game. But I’ve seen this exact issue before playing as a Warlock in competitive WoW arenas. In WoW I at least had the ability to pillar hump, and my team could help peel. Here though, if the assist train is stealthed and/or has Stability, peeling is basically impossible.

Again, I’m only speaking for myself and this is my opinion. However, I don’t believe giving Necromancers Life Force at the start of a fight is the right answer. I believe the right answer is readily giving Necromancers to a reliable means of a disengage.

I posted this elsewhere, but what if you tested something like this with your test team: give flesh wurm, say, an 80 second cooldown, but have Necrotic Traversal ignore LOS and, if the Flesh Wurm is killed, allow the Necromancer the ability to activate Necrotic Traversal for, say 10-15? seconds. Try this out against a stealth assist team and see if this gives you proper counter play.

JonathanSharp.7094:

I just think it’s cute that we have this thread going concurrently with a thread that’s saying Necro’s have no survivability, death shroud is horrible, and that Necro’s, in order to be viable, need to start PvP with life force.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/So-you-want-us-to-use-Deathshroud/

:)

Sounds like a “L2P” issue to me o.O

JonathanSharp.7094:

I just think it’s cute that we have this thread going concurrently with a thread that’s saying Necro’s have no survivability, death shroud is horrible, and that Necro’s, in order to be viable, need to start PvP with life force.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/So-you-want-us-to-use-Deathshroud/

:)

I love it when the devs dish some back, hahaha

1. If you’re wasting a full burst on a death shroud then L2P.
2. Necro has protection, L2P.
3. L2P.

RockSteady.7123:

1. If you’re wasting a full burst on a death shroud then L2P.
2. Necro has protection, L2P.
3. L2P.

1. +1
2. +1
3. +1

theonewhoknocks.8641:

You call that a burst?

First of all get a Focus.
Zap him a little with Arc Lightning to add Vulnerability and start shaving off some of that Death Shroud health.
Then Gale – Lightning Strike – Dragon’s Tooth – Phoenix – Comet – Arcane Blast – Lightning Flash – Arcane Wave – Hurl

This is potentially the highest burst, but there’s really no need to involve Earth attunement, Water autoattack is very good and even the Water Trident packs a 2-3k crit when traits align.

Why this works? Damage increasing factors:
20% – Tempest defence
20% – Bolt to the heart
10% – Scholar runes
10% – Stone splinters
5% – Vital striking
5% – Force sigil
If you play it right most of these will have an effect at one point or another, adding the combo up to 22k+ damage (Heavy dummy dies before you can unload everything)
.

You must have some low ping to land a DT off Gale. Normally I imob then DT / Phoenix then Gale.

Shar.3402:

Both. Spectral armor, then going into death shroud with protection up, and taking 20% life force damage from a full earth-air elementalist burst combo (hurl-earthquake-lflash-air discharge-lightning strike-double arcana-rtl)
That combo used to deal anywhere from 10 to 17k damage depending on crits.

I seriously hope this gets addressed before saturday, can’t go into a competitive tournament with something game-breaking like that.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Necromancer-Survivability-Explanation-Advice/first

That is all highly situational, firstly he had Protection, secondly he had a 7 second LF Generation on hit, lastly only a bad player would waste his/her burst on a Deathshrouded opponent, even prepatch.

You don’t see me whining about Elementalist mist form, do you? Oh wait, you do, because anything that grants pure invulnerability without a counter is overpowered.

Try doing this ‘Necro’ survivability against multiple opponents with CC.

So if I understand this correctly, a burst ele got upset because his burst combo failed to kill a necromancer (presumably wearing rabid or some other toughness enhancing amulet) who had protection and spectral armor.

Isn’t that as stupid as trying to burst a blocking warr/guard/blurred mesmer?

ronpierce.2760:

JonathanSharp.7094:

I just think it’s cute that we have this thread going concurrently with a thread that’s saying Necro’s have no survivability, death shroud is horrible, and that Necro’s, in order to be viable, need to start PvP with life force.

:)

Not everyone want’s to take a 60 second cd just to be viable.

i’m sure warriors do.

Clearly OP, nerf asap.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Volrath.1473:

JonathanSharp.7094:

I just think it’s cute that we have this thread going concurrently with a thread that’s saying Necro’s have no survivability, death shroud is horrible, and that Necro’s, in order to be viable, need to start PvP with life force.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/So-you-want-us-to-use-Deathshroud/

:)

Have you seen the video?
Have you played the game for more that 5 min in the last month? and i mean PLAYED not logged in to run some “tests”…
Can you share the number of players that stopped logging in in the last 3-6 month?

No, I can’t see the video in China (DID YOU READ MY FIRST POST???)

Yes, I actually play with a lot of the players on the forums, and see them in queue.

Our numbers are actually on the rise.

GG!

RE?

the burn still stings, coming all the way form china

but honestly, this video was put up simply for the sake of arguments. go out there, play some games, then put up some real arguments

Brutal Arts.6307:

So if I understand this correctly, a burst ele got upset because his burst combo failed to kill a necromancer (presumably wearing rabid or some other toughness enhancing amulet) who had protection and spectral armor.

Isn’t that as stupid as trying to burst a blocking warr/guard/blurred mesmer?

That’s exactly what I thought.

“OMG, that warriur blocked my semi-instant burst combo! plz, nurf!”

The only difference is that Necromancer is still susceptible to big hits.

The wining about necro’s is staring again! Haha
In case you didn’t know, Necro’s are still really good, if not OP!

You did good Jonathan, removing the greater mark trait to master tier
Because now the OP build 30/30/10/0/0 is less valid, which means you have to use a little more skill to win now

This should implement to the game before dhuumfire nonsense. If it was, it would be perfect for necros and for the meta. But now, i cant imagine what can necros do, with this kind of survivability and pressure capability.

this video was filmed like this:

Player A: Dude, wait there, im going to burst u, but aktivate your skills, k?
Player B: KK, bro, but wait i put my fingers on the buttons… rdy!

BURST!

in my eyes this is not, how burst characters work and should act. The old burst thief was already killed and kitten d if he acted like that… srsly.

Liquid.5047:

this video was filmed like this:

Player A: Dude, wait there, im going to burst u, but aktivate your skills, k?
Player B: KK, bro, but wait i put my fingers on the buttons… rdy!

BURST!

in my eyes this is not, how burst characters work and should act. The old burst thief was already killed and kitten d if he acted like that… srsly.

This is a presentation of new deathshroud. It cant be too hard to understand..

I don’t understand what people are complaining about.
He used a 1min cd utility so that DS would be able to soak the Ele’s burst.
Don’t other classes have 1 min cd skills that mitigate that much damage?
Is that what’s OP?

Do theirs at least not have diminishing returns based on how many enemies are attacking them, because spectral skills do.

Or is it just because it’s on a Necro and if anything stops you from killing a Necro fast, it’s considered broken?

JonathanSharp.7094:

I just think it’s cute that we have this thread going concurrently with a thread that’s saying Necro’s have no survivability, death shroud is horrible, and that Necro’s, in order to be viable, need to start PvP with life force.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/So-you-want-us-to-use-Deathshroud/

:)

You have been a gamer yourself and you have been in the business for quite some time now to know that this is something that will always happen. Guy A says something is underpowered, guy B says it’s overpowered.

Now, from their perspective they both have experienced situations that make them think they are right and it is on you and us to understand what situations have led to the vastly differing opinions.

Take a look at the other thread and notice how at some point the reference made is that stealth openers kill necros. I can tell you that feeling is horrible. Getting 100-0 from stealth will make a necro go “kitten , necros are way too easy to kill”.

Reality is it is not necros that die too easily, because they have no death shroud at the start, it’s everybody dying too easily and without the ability to counter-play it. On my Elementalist I 100-0 a heavy golem in the mist without using a berserker amulet or anything in less than 1 second (that guy’s got 2.6k armor and 22k HPs?).

Imagine what happens when 3 people do that to a single player from stealth. Nobody survives stealth openers. I can actually build my elementalist to guarantee a 1 shot on the toughest guardian by myself (not saying this would be a viable build). I can do close to the same on my mesmer and on my thief, which means that anybody surviving the opener was just lucky and/or the timing on the opener was not perfect.

To get back to the point. When something like that happens, a single player can take up to 40k damage in a single second. Naturally the necro in question would try to come up with ways to prevent that and that’s why posts by necromancers like the one you linked will pop up. They just died on their necromancer, they could care less if the guardian was spiked in the same exact way the match before (if they even noticed).

At the same time you have a pretty visual presentation of how much damage can be avoided with death shroud now in this thread. I plan on testing it myself, because burst openers like the one shown above can be very RNG heavy, but from my experience I always knew that necromancers in death shroud took a large amount of additional damage and “fixing” what seemed to be a feature rather than a bug, might cause issues, as necromancers deal way too much pressure to also be able to withstand a lot of punishment.

TLDR: On one hand you have a video showing the effective damage mitigation of the new death shroud, on the other hand you have a subjective impression leading to a false conclusion that the class requires more defenses, when in reality the mechanics (coordinated burst out of stealth being uncounterable) are to be blamed.

This is simply an example of the tools necro have to mitigate A LOT of burst. I’m reading a lot of people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games because of stealth ganks. With the golem trick, you’ll start the game with deathshroud and you’ll have the ability to mitigate a substantial amount of damage as displayed here.

I get the impression that the people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games have failed to utilize the class to it’s fullest potential which makes it a L2P issue. GW2 is a rather complex game and it’s going to be very difficult (as we’ve seen in the past year) to balance for top level and casual play. I’m not sure about the casual player base but the hardcore players are definitely frustrated with recent changes. So many top tier players are quitting. This has been a reoccurring pattern. Very few hardcore players have stuck around since the beginning. Hopefully Anet can find a good level of reward per skill that is balanced at both casual and top levels of play.

Batmang.5421:

This is simply an example of the tools necro have to mitigate A LOT of burst. I’m reading a lot of people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games because of stealth ganks. With the golem trick, you’ll start the game with deathshroud and you’ll have the ability to mitigate a substantial amount of damage as displayed here.

I get the impression that the people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games have failed to utilize the class to it’s fullest potential which makes it a L2P issue. GW2 is a rather complex game and it’s going to be very difficult (as we’ve seen in the past year) to balance for top level and casual play. I’m not sure about the casual player base but the hardcore players are definitely frustrated with recent changes. So many top tier players are quitting. This has been a reoccurring pattern. Very few hardcore players have stuck around since the beginning. Hopefully Anet can find a good level of reward per skill that is balanced at both casual and top levels of play.

This make no sense at all.
If you are capable to start with 10% life force wasting your Elite, why don’t we get those 10% life force anyway?

Also, lol @ the L2P thing.

sorrow.2364:

Batmang.5421:

This is simply an example of the tools necro have to mitigate A LOT of burst. I’m reading a lot of people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games because of stealth ganks. With the golem trick, you’ll start the game with deathshroud and you’ll have the ability to mitigate a substantial amount of damage as displayed here.

I get the impression that the people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games have failed to utilize the class to it’s fullest potential which makes it a L2P issue. GW2 is a rather complex game and it’s going to be very difficult (as we’ve seen in the past year) to balance for top level and casual play. I’m not sure about the casual player base but the hardcore players are definitely frustrated with recent changes. So many top tier players are quitting. This has been a reoccurring pattern. Very few hardcore players have stuck around since the beginning. Hopefully Anet can find a good level of reward per skill that is balanced at both casual and top levels of play.

This make no sense at all.
If you are capable to start with 10% life force wasting your Elite, why don’t we get those 10% life force anyway?

Also, lol @ the L2P thing.

You don’t “waste” anything. The flesh golem trick sacrifices nothing. If you give 10% to the casuals that don’t know the flesh golem trick then all the pros will be running out the gates with 20%. Sounds like you don’t know the flesh golem trick o.O This is L2P no?

The real solution here would be to fix the flesh golem trick and give 10% or to even start at 20% but lower the max pool of lifeforce.

Batmang.5421:

You don’t “waste” anything. The flesh golem trick sacrifices nothing. If you give 10% to the casuals that don’t know the flesh golem trick then all the pros will be running out the gates with 20%. Sounds like you don’t know the flesh golem trick o.O This is L2P no?

Yeah, it puts your elite on cooldown at the start of the match. Sacrifice nothing? Lol.

Looks like people like to say everyone else L2P. Does it make you fell better?

Batmang.5421:

I get the impression that the people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games have failed to utilize the class to it’s fullest potential which makes it a L2P issue.

In the case of stealth-bursts this is not the case. The only thing a necromancer can do is plague-form to survive such a burst. Also as a guardian myself, it is very hard to survive stealth openers. It’s more about lucky dodging and block-prediciton than anyting else. In this specific scenario it has nothing to do with L2P.

I feel like a lot of people missed the pre-patch tests. The same burst vs the same necro build took 90% deathshroud away. This post shows how it compares pre and post patch, also bare in mind this is without weakness. Those 1.7k crits get turned into 400 damage glances and 3k hit get turned into, what, 800 damage?

I think the issue here is how necro’s were reasonably bulky before but now they are a hell of a lot tougher. Now consider how much damage they put out and how long it takes to down them, especially now. This is where the worry is. They lack escape and sustain (unless stacked with condi’s then full heal :P) so maybe its balanced that way.

I’m in no place to judge if this is OP or not, the damage is not instant like thief or ele but they wont die instantly and they have range (sure thief and ele do but its a ton lower damage than if they melee). In a teamfight if you dont own the point you have to over extend to get the necro and in a smaller fight it can take so long to down it (now imagine theres an ele or thief along side the necro).

sorrow.2364:

Batmang.5421:

You don’t “waste” anything. The flesh golem trick sacrifices nothing. If you give 10% to the casuals that don’t know the flesh golem trick then all the pros will be running out the gates with 20%. Sounds like you don’t know the flesh golem trick o.O This is L2P no?

Yeah, it puts your elite on cooldown at the start of the match. Sacrifice nothing? Lol.

Looks like people like to say everyone else L2P. Does it make you fell better?

You activate flesh golem and swap to another elite during the countdown. It puts nothing on cooldown. Thank you for providing such a great example of what I’m talking about.

Batmang.5421:

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2622702

full ele burst with arcane = 20% deathshroud.

Get serious man. That is like a tutorial on why it is stupid to burst a target with all of their Defensive CDs active at the same time.

Batmang.5421:

This is just an example of how much damage mitigation a necro has access to.

Yes, if a Necro has Spectral Armor, they have 6 seconds or so of sustain. So OP. Since you seem so fond of telling others to L2P, how about you acknowledge that you posted this video under deliberately misleading pretense in order to stir the pot. Don’t burst a target that has all of his defensive CD’s. L2P. Hurrr durrr

Sharp is right to disregard this thread. He didn’t even need to see the video to know that you are full of bulla bulla.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Batmang.5421:

I get the impression that the people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games have failed to utilize the class to it’s fullest potential which makes it a L2P issue.

In the case of stealth-bursts this is not the case. The only thing a necromancer can do is plague-form to survive such a burst. Also as a guardian myself, it is very hard to survive stealth openers. It’s more about lucky dodging and block-prediciton than anyting else. In this specific scenario it has nothing to do with L2P.

Add plague form onto this and you bordering tank status with one of the highest dps classes in the game.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Batmang.5421:

I get the impression that the people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games have failed to utilize the class to it’s fullest potential which makes it a L2P issue.

In the case of stealth-bursts this is not the case. The only thing a necromancer can do is plague-form to survive such a burst. Also as a guardian myself, it is very hard to survive stealth openers. It’s more about lucky dodging and block-prediciton than anyting else. In this specific scenario it has nothing to do with L2P.

Simple fact is necro have the ability to mitigate A TON of burst as shown in the video. Very close in comparison to a lot of other classes that have similar damage output. I’m personally not against stealth openers because I find it interesting but that’s just my opinion. My post was not to justify stealth openers but to provide evidence that necro has the ability to mitigate burst damage and apparently a lot more than people seem to realize. I second what the above poster said when it seems like a lot of people missed the patch notes.

Batmang.5421:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Batmang.5421:

I get the impression that the people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games have failed to utilize the class to it’s fullest potential which makes it a L2P issue.

In the case of stealth-bursts this is not the case. The only thing a necromancer can do is plague-form to survive such a burst. Also as a guardian myself, it is very hard to survive stealth openers. It’s more about lucky dodging and block-prediciton than anyting else. In this specific scenario it has nothing to do with L2P.

Simple fact is necro have the ability to mitigate A TON of burst as shown in the video. Very close in comparison to a lot of other classes that have similar damage output. I’m personally not against stealth openers because I find it interesting but that’s just my opinion. My post was not to justify stealth openers but to provide evidence that necro has the ability to mitigate burst damage.

For normal bursts absolutely, but not for stealth-openers. There is no viable way to generate life-force before. Only thing you can do is put marks and you hope you gonna survive it.