Guild Wars 2

Alekt.5803:

When I told that you eventually run out of condition clears due to the chill, some assumed that it was a melee issue.

First of all, I am ranged. Reapers actually apply some considerable pressure from range too. As a marauder staff tempest, I am pretty sure I would lose the fight with simple auto-attacks against carrion.

As much of a point as you make, you can just strafe left and right to avoid Staff AA completely.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If the Reaper is on Staff, they have okay life force generation (try strafing to dodge the auto, it works quite well), but low pressure. Reaper’s Mark is the important one to dodge and has a very unique animation. Conversely, if they’re on Scepter, they have high pressure, but low life force generation.

Chillblains is as dangerous as Reaper’s Mark and it looks exactly the same as other marks. And the casting animation from staff 5 itself isn’t much different from other marks (I even tried necro/reaper myself to learn the animations, but couldn’t see much difference on staff animations).

And i wouldn’t call staff low pressure, chill alone forces you to cleanse.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

On either one, chill application is limited to just two skills outside of shroud (nobody runs Spectral Grasp) if you’re outside 600 range. Both skills are on staff and have decent cooldowns.

Don’t forget sigil of ice, traited signets, chill of death, …[/quote] So you’re running a lot of Resistance? Because that’s the only way signets can create Chill. Chill of Death, amusingly, can actually be blocked, just not by Aegis. Not helpful, I know, but it does come up sometimes. Sigil of Ice does create long range Chill opportunities, but it also means they don’t have some other useful sigil (like energy).

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Even so, Chill in PvP caps out at ~800 DPS, which is hardly difficult to deal with. Heck, Burning did more than that before the condition changes.

Burning did about the same, not more. And unlike chill it has no additional effects aside dmg, yet burning was on of the strongest conditions even back then.[/quote] Burning also didn’t require a specific Grandmaster trait to deal that kind of damage and was (still is) much more common than Chill.

Cogbyrn.7283:

What exactly are you doing while the Necro is spending several seconds applying chill, minor poison, some torment, and starting to stack bleeds? Nothing? You aren’t dodging the main condi applicators? You aren’t blocking/blinding? You aren’t applying any pressure whatsoever while the Necro is vulnerable outside of shroud?

Dodging which main condi applicators? Marks which look all the same (well almost)? Unavoidable procs like chill of death or sigils? Blocking unblockable marks? Blinding from 1200 range? Pls tell me how to do all this, i really want to learn how to counter condi reaper.

Feast of Corruption and Grasping Dead are the big condi applicators on Scepter while Staff has Chillblains (sorry, 4 seconds of Chill is easy to deal with, even with it dealing damage) and Reaper’s Mark (I don’t know how you can say this is similar to the rest of the staff skills on animation, as it’s the only one where the Necro swings the staff and doesn’t wave his hand).

However, I think people are talking about two different builds entirely. Condition Reaper and Power Reaper have to be approached differently.

In both cases, don’t stand in the ice field Executioner’s Scythe creates.

Power Reaper, keep your distance. They can’t do anything worthwhile to you then.

Condition Reaper, get up in their face and pressure them HARD when they’re not in shroud. Other than staff auto (which is weaksauce), range doesn’t make their stuff any easier to avoid. However, their actual defense is rather low, basically limited to just Weakness. Most are even running full glass on their gear (both runes and amulet) right now.

Vapour.7348:

Posts like these are ridiculous because as a Reaper I can say exactly the SAME thing about Diamond Skin Auromancer Tempest – It’s literally like hitting a wall. Nothing I could do to drop its HP below 90% when running the Reaper build you are complaining about.

I could say the same thing again with Daredevils.

And yet again with Mallyx/shiro heralds.

That’s 3 counters, to me that says the build is fine.

Hello there! I noticed that you forgot that in Reaper’s Shroud the Necromancer gains access to some abilities they may not have in humanoid form. Fortunately, I was able to log into my Diamond Skin Tempest Auramancer. This allows me to present you the total health of one, and the armor I have in Earth Attunement as well.

Executioner’s Scythe Calculations
Damage Done = (weapon strength) * Power * (1.5) / target armor
Damage Done = (1111)(1900)(1.5) / 2698
Damage Done = 1173.6
Damage Needed To Cross Below 90%: 1899

So, one Executioner’s Scythe isn’t enough to get them below 90%. However, let’s couple together Executioner’s Scythe with Soul Spiral, which is another move the Reaper has at their disposal.

Damage Done (12x) = (weapon strength) * Power * (2.8) / target armor
Damage Done (12x) = (1111)(1900)(2.8) / 2698
Damage Done (12x) = 2190
Damage Needed To Cross Below 90%: 1899

Hmm. So it looks like even though Executioner’s Scythe alone isn’t enough to get the Diamond Skin Tempest below the 90% threshold, but it seems like Soul Spiral is adequate enough to do so.

SarcasticSeer.9152:

Hello there!

Hello.

Thanks for sharing your figures.

But you see, the biggest flaw with them is that your test ele is AFK the whole time. In a real encounter, the ele would be moving and only a small portion of the 12 channeled Soul Spiral hits would land.

In real actual encounters, condi reapers struggle with diamond skin tempest.

And you know what, I’m ok with that.

However, I’m not ok with the OP of this thread posting ignorant fairy tale accusations about a class he knows very little about.

Yes. Reapers do have weaknesses: relatively slow projectiles at very long range (1200+) and low mobility.

But I still feel reaper does too much damage and chill application. In a group fight if you get immobilize or stun, gravedigger will eat you and the radius is large enough to cover most enemies at point.

Gravedigger has way too high dmg multiplier (3.0x ?) for a very low cooldown skill. Deathly chill is kinda okay GM trait. Damage per second from chill is at balance since chill doesn’t stack, but the chill duration from the build is simply too long.

Executioner’s Scythe does a bit too many things for one skill: high dmg, stun, chill, ice field.

PS. Comparing reaper vs revenant and auramancer tempest ele is not fruitful. Not everybody plays those two (overpowered) specs. Infact elementalist has one of the best condition removals in the game + diamond skin. I think both the common glint/shiro herald revenant + auramancer ele also need to be toned down. Right now some of the overpowered specs are so powerful that they have pushed otherwise valid builds out of the meta.

According to Leeto, Plague Signet should be nerfed.

Guys Reaper’s will Reap you stay in melee range, like a Dragonhunter will reap you if you stay in melee range.

Kite if he is in RS and kill him when he is out of it. A clever ranger will make short work of a reaper, if he kites him all the time.

If you have to fight on node with a Reaper then I wish you a good luck but it is the same with Dragon Hunter or Berserker Warrior with GS.

Morwath.9817:

According to Leeto, Plague Signet should be nerfed.

Why? The only one that might need changing is the one that proc on crit. Apart from that the normal one is pretty balanced as is.

Dirame.8521:

Morwath.9817:

According to Leeto, Plague Signet should be nerfed.

Why? The only one that might need changing is the one that proc on crit. Apart from that the normal one is pretty balanced as is.

Because it’s so good, you need to run it. Since you’re forced run Plague Signet, you’ve to run Signets of Suffering and if you run SoS, you have to run Signet of Vampirism and Signet of the Locust, which already defines your build…

Morwath.9817:

Dirame.8521:

Morwath.9817:

According to Leeto, Plague Signet should be nerfed.

Why? The only one that might need changing is the one that proc on crit. Apart from that the normal one is pretty balanced as is.

Because it’s so good, you need to run it. Since you’re forced run Plague Signet, you’ve to run Signets of Suffering and if you run SoS, you have to run Signet of Vampirism and Signet of the Locust, which already defines your build…

Sounds like a case of the competitive meta ruts. We have to nerf a good trade-off utility (constantly pulling Cripple/Blind/Chill from teammates can be aggravating for the Necro, but useful for the team, making the timing on the transfer crucial), because a competitive tier Necro feels like his diversity is in jeopardy? The boon converting signet build in general sounds good for an AoE boon-spammy meta, so what’s the problem with having a good role?

Plus, if I recall correctly, it was already nerfed from “all conditions” to "5 conditions’. I might be applying Corrupt Boon’s nerf philosophy to Plague Signet, though, as I’m having difficulty recalling exactly. I’m not sure how else the utility would need to be nerfed. It better not be cast times, because it’s one of the few impactful things I can do without being gated behind a 3/4+ second cast. I want to have at least one fun, instant toy like many of the other classes in the game.

Morwath.9817:

Dirame.8521:

Morwath.9817:

According to Leeto, Plague Signet should be nerfed.

Why? The only one that might need changing is the one that proc on crit. Apart from that the normal one is pretty balanced as is.

Because it’s so good, you need to run it. Since you’re forced run Plague Signet, you’ve to run Signets of Suffering and if you run SoS, you have to run Signet of Vampirism and Signet of the Locust, which already defines your build…

Considering I’ve been playing with Plague and not needed to use SotL or SoV or even SoSpite because I personally see them as Not-Very-Useful. I don’t think you NEED to use any other signet just because you’re using PlagueSig.

In fact, it’s so unnecessary that, if you took corrupt boon in place of SoSpite and Consume Conditions instead of SoV, you’d see your usefulness and survivability go up because you’d be able to shut down boon spam from Engies, Revenants and Eles, in such a way that it’s incredibly difficult for them to come back from.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Plus, if I recall correctly, it was already nerfed from “all conditions” to "5 conditions’. I might be applying Corrupt Boon’s nerf philosophy to Plague Signet, though, as I’m having difficulty recalling exactly.

No no, you’re right. Corrupt Boon got nerfed to 5. And I think I was the one who instigated the discussion on it with a topic I created about Corrupt Boon being too powerful when it converted all boons.

Dirame.8521
No offense, but it doesn’t matter if you consider them useful or not. Its not matter of opinion or personal preferences.

Its a fact : every single Necro in last Pro League (both EU and NA) used SoV, PS, SotL and SoS for a reason.

Morwath.9817:

Dirame.8521
No offense, but it doesn’t matter if you consider them useful or not. Its not matter of opinion or personal preferences.

Its a fact : every single Necro in last Pro League (both EU and NA) used SoV, PS, SotL and SoS for a reason.

So what’s the problem? Necros were more prevalent in that Pro League than in tournaments for a long time now, right? Why aren’t we just thinking “Sweet, we have a place in the competitive meta” instead of “Man I’m tired of playing the build that is finally working at top tier, can’t they make something else work too?”

At least that’s the impression I’m getting. Then again, I think each class having 1 build for the top tier meta is enough.

Plague signet is so strong that it becomes oppressive. You basically cannot play any necro build without plague signet unless you want to get destroyed by every other necro who runs it and you cannot “burst” the necro with conditions unless you want to risk bursting yourself. It also kind of makes people random dodge as it is the only way to avoid it for many classes, which is stupid. The active signet is actually worse in that matter than the passive one (which nobody runs anyways because curses is inferior to spite – especially on reaper because of the unreliable rs2) as you can at least trigger the passive one by applying 3 conditions and burst once you have triggered it.
I think that necro needs a instant cast that cleanses conditions (at least movement impairing ones) but it should not be a transfer.
Signet of vampirism hitting through everything is dumb, too.
If you want to keep plague signets functionality it should at least have an obvious animation+casting time or only transfer certain types of conditions e.g. chill, cripple, immobilize.

Morwath.9817:

Dirame.8521
No offense, but it doesn’t matter if you consider them useful or not. Its not matter of opinion or personal preferences.

Its a fact : every single Necro in last Pro League (both EU and NA) used SoV, PS, SotL and SoS for a reason.

Yea and it sucks. The only reason that build is any good is because of Reaper shroud. Your survivability isn’t greater with all those signets, SoV especially.

I agree with Dirame.

The reapers all bandwagoning signets are doing so because they can’t think for themselves. They just run around like a headless chicken and copy noscoc’s every move because he was the only one that stuck with the class and developed builds and played well in tournaments when it wasn’t strong, thats the ONLY reason why these signet builds are being used. You take that away, and they have nothing.

Lets look at the signets in greater detail:

Plague Signet: Potentially useful on any build because its cooldown is low and any build can gain from having this condi transfer. You don’t need Spite to make it useful.

Signet of the Vampirism: Utter kitten. The only thing keeping this very poor excuse for a heal skill in the meta is the fact that its bugged to work through LoS and evade frames. Without that, its passive heal has zero sustain potential due to its not-per-target ICD, and its active heal value is FAR too low for its cooldown. Any other heal skill provides better healing over time, with traited “You’re Soul as Mine” being the best heal for self-sustain over time, followed by traited Consume Conditions.

Signet of Spite: Its passive effect isn’t very useful, and its cooldown is too high for what it does, and its active effect is decent. I agree that corrupt boon is much better condition pressure, especially when traited to have nearly half the cooldown of traited spite signet.

Signet of the Locust: Its passive effect is nice for the movement speed as QoL, but its scaling heal effect is too weak in 1v1s, though good in teamfights. Still, something like well of corruption will give you a more relaible chance of corrupting stability from someone thats stomping or rezzing. Overall though I’d place it as the 2nd best signet (behind plague). Potentially useful if not traited, but at that point shouts would probably be more useful for a defensive build that wouldn’t go into spite.

Signet of Undeath: Okayish passive, active effect kitten by cast time and inability to rez beneath 25% health due to 3+ year old bug and limited by poison on downed body. Lackluster.

Signets of Suffering: Solid trait, if you want to use signets, this is what enables it to work.

Still, just to say so, I play condi builds with corruptions and shouts that have better sustain (due to better heal skills) and pressure than a similar signet build.

So Morwath, while I respect you for organizing all the information about the competitive scene, as thats a huge undertaking, I compel you to not let that accomplishment go to your head in the form of meta-snobbery. Just because people are using it, doesn’t mean its the only, or even best way to play. And your statement about it being fact instead of opinion is so snobbish and oppressive that I feel the need to put you in your place.

For example: Nos played his “secret” condi build (that doesn’t use a single signet) on his stream yesterday that he didn’t want to talk about. But I know what build that is because one of my personal condi builds is almost the same, even down to the very rune he used of all things. But no one will play it until Nos kitten s everyone in a major tournament with it, because the other bandwagon necros will only copy him. They don’t try out things on their own with very rare exceptions.

But I guess because none of the amazing pro-league bandwagon reapers like Oeggz, use it, by the laws of statistics, and casual inference, it must be bad. Hmmph.

And thats just for offensive condition builds. Theres a whole world of power builds that will probably be used if AoE cleanse/shout spam becomes meta again that none of them have been exploring.

Reapers obviously are not most dominant profession in pvp. So it is possible that it gets hurt by the nerf bat.
Revenant on the other hand ….
Anet’s elementary logic

But Corrupt Boon kills Revenant. “Corrupt Boon now converts 4 boons instead of 5. It also now has a 60 second cooldown and is no longer unblockable.” Inb4.

Nos can run whatever darn build he wants because aside from being a great necro, he has the full, unconditional support of equally skilled teammates….It’s something very very very very few of us have. Their camaraderie is what sets them apart from all the other teams.

So just coz Nos runs it doesn’t mean it’s optimized for your own best interests. And if you soloQ, his build is more likely to not be in your best interests.

abc.5790:

Nos can run whatever darn build he wants because aside from being a great necro, he has the full, unconditional support of equally skilled teammates….It’s something very very very very few of us have. Their camaraderie is what sets them apart from all the other teams.

So just coz Nos runs it doesn’t mean it’s optimized for your own best interests. And if you soloQ, his build is more likely to not be in your best interests.

So you’re saying that other teams that aren’t the abjured aren’t supporting their necromancers? Thats a huge, and quite wrong assumption. If anything certain reapers that aren’t doing well in certain teams aren’t doing well because of noticeable errors in their mechanical skill (one reaper in NA pro leauge used condi transfers with no condis on him). Signets and team support won’t make up for someone being a poor player..

The logic you’ve used to come to your conclusion is faulty.

On a personal level, I’ve used corruption builds off and on since June and I felt fine for soloqueue vs. team queue. Just because I decide to not use signets, it doesn’t mean I need a babysitter, or that I’m mechanically a worse player than a necro that does use signets, because theres more to the class than just signets.

Nos wasn’t even playing last week. No idea why you bring Nos into discussion.

nearlight.3064:

abc.5790:

Nos can run whatever darn build he wants because aside from being a great necro, he has the full, unconditional support of equally skilled teammates….It’s something very very very very few of us have. Their camaraderie is what sets them apart from all the other teams.

So just coz Nos runs it doesn’t mean it’s optimized for your own best interests. And if you soloQ, his build is more likely to not be in your best interests.

So you’re saying that other teams that aren’t the abjured aren’t supporting their necromancers? Thats a huge, and quite wrong assumption. If anything certain reapers that aren’t doing well in certain teams aren’t doing well because of noticeable errors in their mechanical skill (one reaper in NA pro leauge used condi transfers with no condis on him). Signets and team support won’t make up for someone being a poor player..

The logic you’ve used to come to your conclusion is faulty.

On a personal level, I’ve used corruption builds off and on since June and I felt fine for soloqueue vs. team queue. Just because I decide to not use signets, it doesn’t mean I need a babysitter, or that I’m mechanically a worse player than a necro that does use signets, because theres more to the class than just signets.

Technically he said “full, unconditional support [from] equally skilled teammates.” If you don’t think theres a difference between that and just “support” then maybe your logic is flawed.

is this thread supposed to be a joke xD someone tell this guy to play against a revenant

nearlight.3064:

I agree with Dirame.

The reapers all bandwagoning signets are doing so because they can’t think for themselves. They just run around like a headless chicken and copy noscoc’s every move because he was the only one that stuck with the class and developed builds and played well in tournaments when it wasn’t strong, thats the ONLY reason why these signet builds are being used. You take that away, and they have nothing.

Lets look at the signets in greater detail:

Plague Signet: Potentially useful on any build because its cooldown is low and any build can gain from having this condi transfer. You don’t need Spite to make it useful.

Signet of the Vampirism: Utter kitten. The only thing keeping this very poor excuse for a heal skill in the meta is the fact that its bugged to work through LoS and evade frames. Without that, its passive heal has zero sustain potential due to its not-per-target ICD, and its active heal value is FAR too low for its cooldown. Any other heal skill provides better healing over time, with traited “You’re Soul as Mine” being the best heal for self-sustain over time, followed by traited Consume Conditions.

Signet of Spite: Its passive effect isn’t very useful, and its cooldown is too high for what it does, and its active effect is decent. I agree that corrupt boon is much better condition pressure, especially when traited to have nearly half the cooldown of traited spite signet.

Signet of the Locust: Its passive effect is nice for the movement speed as QoL, but its scaling heal effect is too weak in 1v1s, though good in teamfights. Still, something like well of corruption will give you a more relaible chance of corrupting stability from someone thats stomping or rezzing. Overall though I’d place it as the 2nd best signet (behind plague). Potentially useful if not traited, but at that point shouts would probably be more useful for a defensive build that wouldn’t go into spite.

Signet of Undeath: Okayish passive, active effect kitten by cast time and inability to rez beneath 25% health due to 3+ year old bug and limited by poison on downed body. Lackluster.

Signets of Suffering: Solid trait, if you want to use signets, this is what enables it to work.

Still, just to say so, I play condi builds with corruptions and shouts that have better sustain (due to better heal skills) and pressure than a similar signet build.

So Morwath, while I respect you for organizing all the information about the competitive scene, as thats a huge undertaking, I compel you to not let that accomplishment go to your head in the form of meta-snobbery. Just because people are using it, doesn’t mean its the only, or even best way to play. And your statement about it being fact instead of opinion is so snobbish and oppressive that I feel the need to put you in your place.

For example: Nos played his “secret” condi build (that doesn’t use a single signet) on his stream yesterday that he didn’t want to talk about. But I know what build that is because one of my personal condi builds is almost the same, even down to the very rune he used of all things. But no one will play it until Nos kitten s everyone in a major tournament with it, because the other bandwagon necros will only copy him. They don’t try out things on their own with very rare exceptions.

But I guess because none of the amazing pro-league bandwagon reapers like Oeggz, use it, by the laws of statistics, and casual inference, it must be bad. Hmmph.

And thats just for offensive condition builds. Theres a whole world of power builds that will probably be used if AoE cleanse/shout spam becomes meta again that none of them have been exploring.

For a condi necro and even for some power builds signets are too good not to use. If anyone wants to use corruptions over signets that’s fine but then that means your probably taking curses (I do anyway on my condi necro, I’m not one of those that plays the meta build no matter what but it’s usually pretty close) so your either not taking soul reaping or not taking spite. If you take soul reaping your losing out on a ton of vuln and a ton of might, if you take spite you lose out on dhuumfire VP and unblockable marks and if you are already taking spite you should probably use signets as your GM trait. Now you can either play corruption/signet build or you can swap out the corruptions and take terror or poc and have your skill bar with sov sol ps wurm. (This is all assuming the build is using curses)

Really what I’m saying is corruptions aren’t even the best utils for a condi necro taking curses and the meta build which plenty of people agree is effective doesn’t even take curses….

The only skill that would ever make me take corruptions is CC, but with signets and transfers I really don’t seem to struggle with getting rid of condis, if I die it’s usually to an insta gib or I’m getting chain CCed and I’ve already burned my wurm.

There is however a power build I’ve been toying around with using shouts… that I think might become a thing soon but I haven’t played it in enough queues yet.

Also I think you may be underestimating the amount of testing and time these players take to figure out what builds work the best in the MOST situations and don’t forget what we may find effective at our level they may have tried at their level and found it lacking.

As a reaper, main people I have trouble with are mallyx/shiro revs, some burst/cc rangers that i simply can’t touch, and those kitten diamond skinners.

Also, condi based vanilla necro can be hard to fight sometimes, just because ranged is easier to generate LF and damage with than melee.

This is probably the first time ive been able to enjoy necro in PvP regularly, a while ago we were SUB PAR in every aspect as a class and nobody was worried about necros. Just like how zerker shatter mesmers were a crazy killing machine that were untouchable, or zerk gg heartseeker thieves, or burning/regen guardian bunkers..

There are very easy to play counters to reaper. And the builds don’t derivate a lot between reapers/necros now so it should be easy to figure it out. I can testify, kite me while im in shroud, survive for the first 15 seconds while im shrouding then as soon as im out of it just dump damage on my face. I will go down. We don’t have a lot of active mitigation tools, if none at all, but we can throw conditions around and shroud is our shield/chasing tool.

meow one twenty.4376:

nearlight.3064:

abc.5790:

Nos can run whatever darn build he wants because aside from being a great necro, he has the full, unconditional support of equally skilled teammates….It’s something very very very very few of us have. Their camaraderie is what sets them apart from all the other teams.

So just coz Nos runs it doesn’t mean it’s optimized for your own best interests. And if you soloQ, his build is more likely to not be in your best interests.

So you’re saying that other teams that aren’t the abjured aren’t supporting their necromancers? Thats a huge, and quite wrong assumption. If anything certain reapers that aren’t doing well in certain teams aren’t doing well because of noticeable errors in their mechanical skill (one reaper in NA pro leauge used condi transfers with no condis on him). Signets and team support won’t make up for someone being a poor player..

The logic you’ve used to come to your conclusion is faulty.

On a personal level, I’ve used corruption builds off and on since June and I felt fine for soloqueue vs. team queue. Just because I decide to not use signets, it doesn’t mean I need a babysitter, or that I’m mechanically a worse player than a necro that does use signets, because theres more to the class than just signets.

Technically he said “full, unconditional support [from] equally skilled teammates.” If you don’t think theres a difference between that and just “support” then maybe your logic is flawed.

Yeah, lol I had no idea my comment would be so offensive and taken out of context. I thought it was widely known that Nos was lucky for having the Abjured back him up now and even more so at a time when necros had 0 representation. Such solid foundation and tight bond would lead to builds that are suitable for their arrangement. Therefore, it’s not in the best interest of a soloQer to copy his exact build.

You guys are missing the point. The point is, that signets aren’t perfect, and other utilities can work in place of them.

Morwath, that counter argument isn’t valid, considering:

1. He played carrion signet build in the last ESL Sunday weekly before proleague
2. During the june-hot meta every other necromancer copied noscoc’ cele build with few variations, even when nos varied it up with flesh wurm and corruptions.
3. Or alternative hypothesis: pro players trust metabattle too much.

Either way, this doesn’t change the fact that the signet heal is bad, with only one of the signets being unconditionally good, and you can get significantly better sustain from using YSiM or CC. That is mathematical fact. And that’s before we even look at augury of death, traited plague, rise, or corrosive poison cloud.

And abc, the soloqueue factor isn’t as relevant as you think it is. Different builds are situational and matchup dependent. For example, (also answering speed Starr’s argument) corrupt boon is way better against Mallyx revs that signets are, while full on signets are better against things like burn guards and trap Rangers compared to corruptions.

nearlight.3064:

You guys are missing the point. The point is, that signets aren’t perfect, and other utilities can work in place of them.

Morwath, that counter argument isn’t valid, considering:

1. He played carrion signet build in the last ESL Sunday weekly before proleague
2. During the june-hot meta every other necromancer copied noscoc’ cele build with few variations, even when nos varied it up with flesh wurm and corruptions.
3. Or alternative hypothesis: pro players trust metabattle too much.

Either way, this doesn’t change the fact that the signet heal is bad, with only one of the signets being unconditionally good, and you can get significantly better sustain from using YSiM or CC. That is mathematical fact. And that’s before we even look at augury of death, traited plague, rise, or corrosive poison cloud.

And abc, the soloqueue factor isn’t as relevant as you think it is. Different builds are situational and matchup dependent. For example, (also answering speed Starr’s argument) corrupt boon is way better against Mallyx revs that signets are, while full on signets are better against things like burn guards and trap Rangers compared to corruptions.

Have you ever thought that Spite/Curses/SReaping before HoT and Spite/sReaping/Reaper after it is the best possible option for Necromancer?

Thats mostly because Spite = sReaping > Curses > Blood > Death.

It has nothing with Nos himself or metabattle.

nearlight.3064:

And abc, the soloqueue factor isn’t as relevant as you think it is. Different builds are situational and matchup dependent. For example, (also answering speed Starr’s argument) corrupt boon is way better against Mallyx revs that signets are, while full on signets are better against things like burn guards and trap Rangers compared to corruptions.

That was exactly my point. Builds from organized teams were made for a reason and usually not the best option for people that play with random teammates. Also, it’s not hard to differentiate the best use for condi transfer and boon stripping.

I can tell you’re very passionate about the class based on all the content you took the time to write about. That’s certainly not a bad thing.

Morwath.9817:

nearlight.3064:

You guys are missing the point. The point is, that signets aren’t perfect, and other utilities can work in place of them.

Morwath, that counter argument isn’t valid, considering:

1. He played carrion signet build in the last ESL Sunday weekly before proleague
2. During the june-hot meta every other necromancer copied noscoc’ cele build with few variations, even when nos varied it up with flesh wurm and corruptions.
3. Or alternative hypothesis: pro players trust metabattle too much.

Either way, this doesn’t change the fact that the signet heal is bad, with only one of the signets being unconditionally good, and you can get significantly better sustain from using YSiM or CC. That is mathematical fact. And that’s before we even look at augury of death, traited plague, rise, or corrosive poison cloud.

And abc, the soloqueue factor isn’t as relevant as you think it is. Different builds are situational and matchup dependent. For example, (also answering speed Starr’s argument) corrupt boon is way better against Mallyx revs that signets are, while full on signets are better against things like burn guards and trap Rangers compared to corruptions.

Have you ever thought that Spite/Curses/SReaping before HoT and Spite/sReaping/Reaper after it is the best possible option for Necromancer?

Thats mostly because Spite = sReaping > Curses > Blood > Death.

It has nothing with Nos himself or metabattle.

That’s not exactly a catch all argument. Notice I talk about the utilities of the build more so than the actual traits. You’ll also notice that most of the carrion signetmancers running around take the exact build off of metabattle, which is the same build that noscoc claimed credit for by using it first in a major tournament while everyone else was trying to tack on reaper to his old celestial build with blighters boon without properly adapting it to be more condi based. So many players basically waited for noscoc to figure out the best builds before they adapted one, and that’s obvious if you look at the first ESLs after HoT and after the blighters boon nerf.

Just because you choose spite, it doesn’t mean you necessarily need to choose signets, if you’d prefer to use something like shouts for more sustain. You can take spiteful spirit and get something that doesn’t need signets to function well while still having all the night and vuln you’d need from spite (the real reason it’s always picked).

It also depends on the role of your build. Maybe you want to make a support bunker build, so blood magic would be more useful for you than spite. Is blood support necro the best build? Probably not. But it’d probably be competitive if blighters boon wasn’t nerfed as harshly as it was to make it only function with spite.

The other thug to talk about is the dependence on soul reaping for vital persistence and general life force a management, but notice that this doesn’t drive utility choices (except for turning people away from spectrals), so this isn’t the problem here that I’m trying to discuss.

SarcasticSeer.9152:

Vapour.7348:

Posts like these are ridiculous because as a Reaper I can say exactly the SAME thing about Diamond Skin Auromancer Tempest – It’s literally like hitting a wall. Nothing I could do to drop its HP below 90% when running the Reaper build you are complaining about.

I could say the same thing again with Daredevils.

And yet again with Mallyx/shiro heralds.

That’s 3 counters, to me that says the build is fine.

Hello there! I noticed that you forgot that in Reaper’s Shroud the Necromancer gains access to some abilities they may not have in humanoid form. Fortunately, I was able to log into my Diamond Skin Tempest Auramancer. This allows me to present you the total health of one, and the armor I have in Earth Attunement as well.

Executioner’s Scythe Calculations
Damage Done = (weapon strength) * Power * (1.5) / target armor
Damage Done = (1111)(1900)(1.5) / 2698
Damage Done = 1173.6
Damage Needed To Cross Below 90%: 1899

So, one Executioner’s Scythe isn’t enough to get them below 90%. However, let’s couple together Executioner’s Scythe with Soul Spiral, which is another move the Reaper has at their disposal.

Damage Done (12x) = (weapon strength) * Power * (2.8) / target armor
Damage Done (12x) = (1111)(1900)(2.8) / 2698
Damage Done (12x) = 2190
Damage Needed To Cross Below 90%: 1899

Hmm. So it looks like even though Executioner’s Scythe alone isn’t enough to get the Diamond Skin Tempest below the 90% threshold, but it seems like Soul Spiral is adequate enough to do so.

You forgot to multiply this number by .33 due to protection (7 seconds on a 8,25 CD), and add the infamous cele regeneration (500 HP per sec) which is also close to permanent.

Also the fact that diamond skin makes you immuned to fears, so basically a carrion frost fire has only 2 option to dent you :

- Use elite skill (1.25 sec channel) and pray you don’t switch into air and blind them so that he can use the scythe reliably (1.25 sec channel).

- Burn the signets to corrupt your protection + regeneration and try the burst (assuming you are kittened and didn’t blind us), then watch you heal and reapply protection. Congrats we burned a 24 CD skill + burst while you just used a heal + 8 ICD attunement, now we are doing next to 0 damage.

Oh, did I mention the perma vigor, the in-built evade skill on dagger and earth #4 focus ? And of course, you don’t take any breakstuns, so a lucky scythe is an auto-win right ?

Least but not last, boon corruption is random, condition transfer is random (100% love it when I transfer cripple instead of my 13 stacks of burn or when I corrupt might instead of stab or protect). So there isn’t even a garantee to convert your stability into fea… I mean strip it.

If you struggle against a necromancer, you should probably let your cat play in your stead.

Honestly, I’d trade a 10% damage reduction on chill anyday against a clear, funtionnal and reliable table of boon corruption / condition transfer priority that would state something like :

- Stab > Resistance > Protection > Regeneration > don’t care
- Fear > Damaging conditions by intensity > Chill > don’t care

All this talk about damage coefficients and lot’s of waffle. You HAVE to be in range to be chilled, whether that is from melee attacks, procs from weapon swaps, Reaper Shroud etc… etc… etc…

Kite. It’s as simple as that, Kite. Dodge, use range time your blocks, don’t stay in melee range when a Necro switches to shroud. Scythe has a hideously long cast time you can see it coming a mile off, don’t stand in the ice field!!!!!! Reaper auto hit’s out only too 170. Save your “oh poop” skills for when the GOOD reapers try to combo you to keep you in place.

There are also a few main reaper play-styles/builds, Mara Power, Celestial Signet and Wanderer TerrorMancer. Of these Power Reaper is the easiest to kill, Celestial Signet has a ton of sustain and can hit you hard IF you stay in melee range.

Now a Wanderer TerrorMancer is by far the hardest to beat, if it’s played by an experienced player and will absolutely dominate if you let them

Range, kiting and mobility will help you beat reapers, not nerfs.

Another class like dragon hunter. Yes reaper is powerful and fun to play.
I only loose against condi reapers (i guess its the TerrorMancer) ….
Last fight was yesterday eavening one with some pets. Killed him without being in danger… It seems i win most of the fights where people complain OP ness, because i use a ranged weapon combinded with some missile defence and a few powerful point blank attacks for a single melee burst.

Wolfric.9380:

Another class like dragon hunter. Yes reaper is powerful and fun to play.
I only loose against condi reapers (i guess its the TerrorMancer) ….
Last fight was yesterday eavening one with some pets. Killed him without being in danger… It seems i win most of the fights where people complain OP ness, because i use a ranged weapon combinded with some missile defence and a few powerful point blank attacks for a single melee burst.

Exactly. Range, kite and burst when they are OUT of shroud. The Condi Reaper build using Wanderers is really, really strong. If they get you in the fear chain you will take terror + chill damage.

arguden.7821:

is this thread supposed to be a joke xD someone tell this guy to play against a revenant

I actually believe it or not, Find it extremely easy to deal with Revenants If in a fair fight scenario. I would’ve mentioned the other specializations if they were my problem but they are not. I am having troubles with REAPERS not Heralds, Not Tempests, Not Dragon hunters or any other class. I’m having troubles exclusively with Reapers.

TimTWW.5867:

arguden.7821:

is this thread supposed to be a joke xD someone tell this guy to play against a revenant

I actually believe it or not, Find it extremely easy to deal with Revenants If in a fair fight scenario. I would’ve mentioned the other specializations if they were my problem but they are not. I am having troubles with REAPERS not Heralds, Not Tempests, Not Dragon hunters or any other class. I’m having troubles exclusively with Reapers.

Veteran and tournament level pvpers on this thread agree that:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Condi-Reapers-Really-Not-That-Great/