Guild Wars 2

Xsorus.2507:

If you can’t grasp the concept of how Vit is the counter stat to condition damage in a game where every class has heals I don’t know what to tell you..

As for saying Warriors… If you go only Toughness against a Power Class, and pickup nothing else to improve your survivability chances are you will die..Warriors are the same way with Conditions..Most choose not to counter conditions..Most Warriors in general have the Bear Ranger Mentality….

Direct damage is also affected by vitality. But condition damage is unaffected by armor.
Having more vitality will help you against both. But it will help not as much against conditions, as you can so in how fast full-vitality warriors die under heavy condition spam.

I don’t think that is what is being said at all. I am saying that a GC kills fast and takes a big risk. If you go full damage, you will kill faster. If you don’t add something else, youc annot blame a class for also going full offensive.

Here is the difference that everyone is not adding. Conditions do damage over time, and if cleansed, y ou completely mitigate their damage. Whereas direct damage is instant and totally reliant on a heal to be mitigated, and it is never completely mitigated. The time that conditions need to build is paramount whereas DPS can be instant and drop hps quickly. Conditions have their advantages as if someone runs away, damage continues, but it takes longer, thus allowing an escape to take place, whereas direct damage can drop someone before they escape.

There are tradeoffs, and I have seen amazing thieves, with amazing stealth drop people and still get away when the tide turns. A necro, goes in, and he is in until he is dead or the others are. Mesmers are similiar to a thief, go in, kill, if it gets too hot, blink/invis out.

Guardians, can tank 3 people until help comes, I have seen good guardians totally hold a point vs 3 and have 50% health when help arrives (and it was not instant). I have seen ele’s do AMAZING things with regard to survivability and damage and still be able to bug out. Engineers are such a cool class, and have also tanked as well as guardians, or applied conditions as well or equal to a necro. Rangers… my god, good rangers are such an amazing class, in a bunker role. I admit they need more power based assault builds, as does a warrior need some help>

The necro is in between in that we give up a lot to do damage, and even if we go full tank or give up our damage abilities, we still cannot get the hell out. There is no build for us to do anything but do damage. Go bunker and you’re a joke and not able to do damage. If you go bunker and conditions, you give up burning, and you likely give up terror too, thus you get, what? bleed, which is cleansed in one click.

So what does a necro have that he depends on? Condition flooding. It is our one strength, which is stronger with terror. Add terror and master or terror and i guarntee you, the necro’s armor is not above 2400, with about 19,500 hps, which is burned through in 2 rotations of a thief. Add a focus fire and bam, he dies faster than a GC thief, immobilized and without a heal.

Zenith.7301:

stof.9341:

The problem is that heavy condition cleanse builds for some classes leave them as threatening as a white underleveled mob.

Bullcrap. Shadow arts condi cleanse spam thief still crits backstab for 4-5k on high toughness easy.

Mesmer just needs 10 points in inspiration and mantra heal+null field.

What we’re seeing here is a case of people wanting to keep all their offensive perks with free defensive boosts.

You may be non-threatening to bunkers with the damage sacrifice, but that is intended. Your builds doesn’t get to address every weakness it has.

The fact is every warrior I see wants to run full zerker, gs, and axe/shield. And they want to be able to do the ridiculous damage they already do while having high uptime.

And the answer is, you can’t. If you were allowed to do that damage to someone for prolonged periods of time, thieves would be booted and so would any spike class really in favor of a warrior who can not only spike, but has better sustained and cleaving.

A thief in stealth to remove conditions does 0 DPS. Also it “only” removes one condition every 3s while in stealth. Either you do a long duration stealth or you spam short ones. Long duration is vulnerable to getting more conditions applied on you, and you are useless anyway. Short duration spam means spaming C&D with all the issues we know. Blind, cripple and dodges will prevent you from doing it often enough.

Mesmer mantra heal + Mender’s Purity = 1 condition every 10s with a LONG (2.75s) mantra cast time every 2 cleanse. Also it removes poison AFTER the heal is applied. Null field is on average one condition removed every 9s. kitten CD on null field is harsh. Also it’s vulnerable to plain condition reapplication since it cleanses one per second. It removes the most recent first also. And Necro scepter autoattack reapplies one condition at each stage. Have fun with your kitten CD Null Field removing in total 4 stacks of bleed and one of poison.

And all that doesn’t matter much since once you are feared, most condition removal skills stop working.

MithranArkanere.8957:

Xsorus.2507:

If you can’t grasp the concept of how Vit is the counter stat to condition damage in a game where every class has heals I don’t know what to tell you..

As for saying Warriors… If you go only Toughness against a Power Class, and pickup nothing else to improve your survivability chances are you will die..Warriors are the same way with Conditions..Most choose not to counter conditions..Most Warriors in general have the Bear Ranger Mentality….

Direct damage is also affected by vitality. But condition damage is unaffected by armor.
Having more vitality will help you against both. But it will help not as much against conditions, as you can so in how fast full-vitality warriors die under heavy condition spam.

You’re missing the part where power based stats scale much, much better as berserker than condition specs with a single condi damage stat.

I can guarantee you if my warrior was able to stay on targets, same for thief, they both would kill much faster than any condi spec in the game.

I spam 5-6k Life Blasts in Death Shroud.
What were you saying again?

Good way to know when someone is full of it.

My necro with 110% crit dmg iun pve (spvp cap is 62%) at best does 5k without might and at most 6k with blood is power. With power signet equipped. Stop lying.

Demon.5082:

Xsorus.2507:

If you can’t grasp the concept of how Vit is the counter stat to condition damage in a game where every class has heals I don’t know what to tell you..

As for saying Warriors… If you go only Toughness against a Power Class, and pickup nothing else to improve your survivability chances are you will die..Warriors are the same way with Conditions..Most choose not to counter conditions..Most Warriors in general have the Bear Ranger Mentality….

You are the one who is unable to grasp the imbalance between vit and toughness in the current meta. It was fine when cleanses were on par with condition application but it is not anymore. Classes with low hp have to prioritize toughness over vit because burst kills faster than conditions. But currently, conditions are demolishing people at near equal rates so now these classes either go vit to have a chance against conditions but get torn apart by power builds (mesmer’s phantasms, thieves, warriors etc) or they have to get both just to survive. Leaving them with minimal stat options for offense.

PS: I never run a build without moderate cleansing on any class. My ultilities are a balanced mix of cleansing/stun breakers and mobility/stealth/invul. However, post patch I have dropped one or both non cleansing utilities in favor of cleanses because of the fact that condition is killing more than stuns/burst.

I’m sorry, Are you really trying to argue that Conditions are now unbalanced as a whole because Necromancer’s got access to Burn and Torment…Really? That is what you’re trying to argue…

Sigh its no use. You guys just wont get it. I can totally empathize being given the short end of the stick for the past few months as a necro but that does not justify the current meta. Every necro agreed they needed survivability and not buffs to turn them into GC condition monsters.

Xsorus.2507:

I’m sorry, Are you really trying to argue that Conditions are now unbalanced as a whole because Necromancer’s got access to Burn and Torment…Really? That is what you’re trying to argue…

For the 100000000th time. I am not saying Necros are OP. Got that? I am saying the current meta of condition spam from MULTIPLE Necros + nade Engis are OP.

My reasoning is in my post which you quoted but failed to counter. I also feel that adding more condition cleanses is NOT the way to balance things. There are class builds that apply 1-2 conditions and more cleanses just screw them over.

In summary, I feel either multiple conditions (from different players) need to have a DR or something or toughness works partially on conditions. That is all I am saying.

Demon.5082:

Sigh its no use. You guys just wont get it. I can totally empathize being given the short end of the stick for the past few months as a necro but that does not justify the current meta. Every necro agreed they needed survivability and not buffs to turn them into GC condition monsters.

Xsorus.2507:

I’m sorry, Are you really trying to argue that Conditions are now unbalanced as a whole because Necromancer’s got access to Burn and Torment…Really? That is what you’re trying to argue…

For the 100000000th time. I am not saying Necros are OP. Got that? I am saying the current meta of condition spam from MULTIPLE Necros + nade Engis are OP.

My reasoning is in my post which you quoted but failed to counter. I also feel that adding more condition cleanses is NOT the way to balance things. There are class builds that apply 1-2 conditions and more cleanses just screw them over.

In summary, I feel either multiple conditions (from different players) need to have a DR or something or toughness works partially on conditions. That is all I am saying.

Or they can change epidemic to 2 conditions made aoe instead of all and put a class cap of 1 per class in matchmaking.

IMO I think you get to much survivability for going condi build. Granted the idea is to drop condis and live until they die, but maybe the numbers aren’t right? Perhaps survivability should come more from planned or skillfull skill usage? (Doge spams and crazy regen is not my idea of skillful mind you but that’s just me)

Or how about more obvious stronger single target condi bombs and less AoE? Since that’s what’s really carrying tea fights hard.

Protection seems to be your biggest friend at this point.

Everyone cries OP mesmer and OP thief but maybe this is the legitimate counter to both? Out playing aside, I may be wrong on this but I feel like the intended cycle is supposed to be GC > Bunker > Condi > GC (not hard numbers or situations mind you but a definite advantage) I only get this feeling because it has been stated quite a few times by arena-net that bunkers were not supposed to endlessly out last GCs

Zenith.7301:

Or they can change epidemic to 2 conditions made aoe instead of all and put a class cap of 1 per class in matchmaking.

These are actually very good fixes.
More people should up come with suggestions like this instead of playing the “you were OP before so let me be OP now” or “this is not OP its a skill issue” excuses.
The community has to keep in mind that this attitude is what results in hard nerf hammers on anything bordering the OP state.
The people who complain just complain and the people who defend just defend while nobody is providing any useful/helpful feedback.

Daishi.6027:

IMO I think you get to much survivability for going condi build. Granted the idea is to drop condis and live until they die, but maybe the numbers aren’t right? Perhaps survivability should come more from planned or skillfull skill usage? (Doge spams and crazy regen is not my idea of skillful mind you but that’s just me)

Or how about more obvious stronger single target condi bombs and less AoE? Since that’s what’s really carrying tea fights hard.

Protection seems to be your biggest friend at this point.

Everyone cries OP mesmer and OP thief but maybe this is the legitimate counter to both? Out playing aside, I may be wrong on this but I feel like the intended cycle is supposed to be GC > Bunker > Condi > GC (not hard numbers or situations mind you but a definite advantage) I only get this feeling because it has been stated quite a few times by arena-net that bunkers were not supposed to endlessly out last GCs

Protection does not work on condition damage either :-(
Honestly, I would be satisfied if it did (then the classes with protection at least will have a fair chance).

Your order is spot on. GC kills Condi. Bunker kills GC. Condi kills Bunker. But right now GC vs Condi is a 50% chance at best while Condi still destroys Bunker.

For me it’ll be enough if there was short immunities to the conditions you removed with the last skill.

Use a condition removal skill, you remove let’s say, poison, you become immune to poison for 1 second for every 10 seconds of recharge of the condition removal skill, rounded down.
Use a 25 second removal, remove bleeding, get 2 seconds of immunity to bleeding, and so on.

That’ll take care of how easy is to simply reapply a condition right away, and how pointless condition removal is because of that.

Right now, there’s simply no timing to removal. You can’t wait until they’ve used their condition skills and then pop your removal while they are recharging to create a small window of time in which they won’t put conditions on you, because of the sheer amount of conditions that exist in auto-attacks and short-recharge skills. Conditions are applied constantly.

Problem is that most of condition builds…let’s say engis and necros at first, won’t die vs a burst spec if played decently due to the high survivability you can get from traits/amulets when specced full condition while most glass builds easily fall vs conditions since you have very little to no condition removal, hp and tough (Even low power hits can deal some dmg to you)…condition builds are usually far more close to bunker spec than dps ones, that’s pretty obvious but it leads to them obviously being more realiable in tpvp..the only exception to this is d/d valkirye ele atm with nice healing and survivability while still dealing good dmg with fury…everything else from dps engis to thieves are already dead meat in seconds when focused while a condition one is not..sure you kill slower but you can spam aoe cond dmg all day long that is way better in a tpvp teamfight and close to lame when you’re forced to fight on a point due to this poor conquest mode..

In short

Dps can backup and kill, but have to stay out of point (Aoes) for not being focused in teamfights….. and still cannot kill most bunkers alone (At equal skill level)

Condition can solo or at least decap many bunkers, stay on point eating some dps while holding it and even hold point by himself for some time (Waiting for bunker going back for example), res control (Try to res something with all dat aoe necro crap/engi granades spam on it), better stomps (A glass cannon can’t just stomp someone ignoring dmg cause you’re more likely going down before finishing the stomp animation) and many others advantages…most of them, as i said, given by the poor conquest and let’s say rez/rally mode..

Demon.5082:

Zenith.7301:

Or they can change epidemic to 2 conditions made aoe instead of all and put a class cap of 1 per class in matchmaking.

These are actually very good fixes.
More people should up come with suggestions like this instead of playing the “you were OP before so let me be OP now” or “this is not OP its a skill issue” excuses.
The community has to keep in mind that this attitude is what results in hard nerf hammers on anything bordering the OP state.
The people who complain just complain and the people who defend just defend while nobody is providing any useful/helpful feedback.

Daishi.6027:

IMO I think you get to much survivability for going condi build. Granted the idea is to drop condis and live until they die, but maybe the numbers aren’t right? Perhaps survivability should come more from planned or skillfull skill usage? (Doge spams and crazy regen is not my idea of skillful mind you but that’s just me)

Or how about more obvious stronger single target condi bombs and less AoE? Since that’s what’s really carrying tea fights hard.

Protection seems to be your biggest friend at this point.

Everyone cries OP mesmer and OP thief but maybe this is the legitimate counter to both? Out playing aside, I may be wrong on this but I feel like the intended cycle is supposed to be GC > Bunker > Condi > GC (not hard numbers or situations mind you but a definite advantage) I only get this feeling because it has been stated quite a few times by arena-net that bunkers were not supposed to endlessly out last GCs

Protection does not work on condition damage either :-(
Honestly, I would be satisfied if it did (then the classes with protection at least will have a fair chance).

Your order is spot on. GC kills Condi. Bunker kills GC. Condi kills Bunker. But right now GC vs Condi is a 50% chance at best while Condi still destroys Bunker.

But a guardian bunker doesn’t kill thieves or mesmers, ever. Nothing kills a thief or mesmer if it doesn’t want to die.

Yet a guardian bumps into an engineer and you can rest assure that guardian will die. He doesn’t have the escape mechanisms or burst to deal with the condi spec.

And we’re also missing in that part of the hierarchy that thief/mesmer GC kills all other GC AND condi specs. S/D thief GC kills bunkers that are not engineers just fine.

Wait I thought I implied glass cannons kill bunkers, bunkers kill condi, condi kills glass cannon? Was the design intention Did I say it weirdly?

Also glass mes vs necro is pretty much gg now I have yet to see a mes to really be able to keep it up for very long unless the necro is just really really bad. Ditto but to a lesser extent I see the same with thief vs necro.

Engie vs mes or vs thief I do see as very 50/50 and being really down to skill vs skill

Kinda would like to see more team condi clears on lower cooldowns. That are standardly built into the meta. I think a class already pretty good at clearing them like ele or guardian would be good.

But this is just my perspective, I could have flawed opinions.

More team clear? Why make anything that isn’t a necro or engineer useless if they try to run a condi build.

Problem is you’re able to stack both toughness and condi dmg, all you have to do is run in circles and spam your aoe. Also enginners are able to have perma vigor for some reason, they dodge in circles actually lol.

Archaon.6245:

Problem is that most of condition builds…let’s say engis and necros at first, won’t die vs a burst spec if played decently due to the high survivability you can get from traits/amulets when specced full condition while most glass builds easily fall vs conditions since you have very little to no condition removal, hp and tough (Even low power hits can deal some dmg to you)…condition builds are usually far more close to bunker spec than dps ones, that’s pretty obvious but it leads to them obviously being more realiable in tpvp..the only exception to this is d/d valkirye ele atm with nice healing and survivability while still dealing good dmg with fury…everything else from dps engis to thieves are already dead meat in seconds when focused while a condition one is not..sure you kill slower but you can spam aoe cond dmg all day long that is way better in a tpvp teamfight and close to lame when you’re forced to fight on a point due to this poor conquest mode..

In short

Dps can backup and kill, but have to stay out of point (Aoes) for not being focused in teamfights….. and still cannot kill most bunkers alone (At equal skill level)

Condition can solo or at least decap many bunkers, stay on point eating some dps while holding it and even hold point by himself for some time (Waiting for bunker going back for example), res control (Try to res something with all dat aoe necro crap/engi granades spam on it), better stomps (A glass cannon can’t just stomp someone ignoring dmg cause you’re more likely going down before finishing the stomp animation) and many others advantages…most of them, as i said, given by the poor conquest and let’s say rez/rally mode..

^This. GC are supposed to die fast. But I know there is a problem with my semi bunker (toughness+vit) ele gets blown up way faster than a pure GC necro (with toughness on ammy ofc) against both GC and Condi (timed fears so I cant cleanse well or timed chill when I get out of water).

Zenith.7301:

But a guardian bunker doesn’t kill thieves or mesmers, ever. Nothing kills a thief or mesmer if it doesn’t want to die.

Yet a guardian bumps into an engineer and you can rest assure that guardian will die. He doesn’t have the escape mechanisms or burst to deal with the condi spec.

And we’re also missing in that part of the hierarchy that thief/mesmer GC kills all other GC AND condi specs. S/D thief GC kills bunkers that are not engineers just fine.

The issue there is Guardian mobility and the stupid stealth mechanic. Thieves have evasion/mobility so honestly they should not have more than 1 stealth option in a fight. Mesmer is already there unless they run torch/mass invis which is not really as attractive as other options.

Zenith.7301:

More team clear? Why make anything that isn’t a necro or engineer useless if they try to run a condi build.

I completely agree. I DO NOT want to see more cleanses (especially team ones lol). Pre patch, I was fine with the occasional deaths to HGH/Necros on my Mesmer but now its just out of hand…

I believe that offense is much stronger than defense in general.

The way it ideally should be:
condition>bunker
bunker>burst
burst>condition

The way it is now:
condition>bunker
condition>burst
bunker>burst

Something is very wrong…

Zenith.7301:

Yeah, nothing more funny than privileged warriors and thieves wanting their burst specs to counter and deal with everything.

Privileged warriors you say? tell me again how they are bottom of the barrel for all pvp? Burst cant compete because put simple bursting needs careful planning to line up without getting owned by a half decent team. even glass thieves get kitten by a half decent condition spec. Not only is condition spec tankier by design, but it also has an instant hitting nature to most of the skills. making spamming easy and frequent.
No I dont want burst to be buffed, I want conditions brought down to the level of burst in pvp (in WVWVW it is completely different and one can argue they are on par)

Gryph.8237:

Epic.3950:

hmm cause warriors can adapt, thieves can adapt, guardians can adapt? Not every class has viable condition specs so what you are saying is that everyone should roll necro, condition ele and condition engi? hmm seems legit. If there was a midway point between glass and condition there would be no problem why should we not play some classes because anet decides conditions should be superiorly OP?

Wait, a thief cannot adapt? Huh, go stealth remove conditions, use heal, remove bleeding/poison everytime. That has to be a joke right? OHHHhh you mean if you go all glass cannon and can kill people in a Steal + mug + imobilize + cloak and dagger + backstab and you dont want to be vulnerable to condition damage? Oh, i see. meta changed and you want to be buffed.

A guardian cannot adapt? Are you joking? Soldier runes + shouts = condition clear. Shouts back at practically 20+ seconds, let alone purity removing every 10 seconds, and if built right, removing for your entire team. Wait, you mean you have to run the ability smite conditions? Oh, im sorry. Guess that one ability and some traits is not enough for auto cleans.

Warrior, I can’t help you, I feel that they need some help, though they too can run a shout or two and soldier runes, get a bit more tanky and still remove some conditions.

So sounds to me like the community wants necros to go back being lackluster and not viable in the meta. Conditions they have were always there, except we got 2 more. one in a grandmaster trait that makes you go GC like yourself and CC prone, and another in DS. I don’t feel bad for you at all. I think we are where we should be, and people need to take their glass cannosn and add a stun break and one ability for a cleanse, instead of running 4 utility skills 3 + 1 elite for total offense.

Nope, feel like your kitten in in the wind.

The problem is the community got used to having specific builds, that were practically only built either for complete damage or to deal with classes in the pre-existing meta, where necros were not played as much because they were not top tier. Case in point, look at the top tier tournaments prior to the patch (did you see a necro? or a warrior?). Now the patch is forcing people to go back to the drawing board to try and account for the new meta, where necros are more abundant, using the same conditions that were there prior. The community just does not want to adjust their builds, which were working pretty well when the balance was Mesmer/Guardian/bunker ranger were in every game, along with a thief and an engie.

Now you actually have to change things up, and it takes time to see where you need to be. This community is lazy.

Lets look at this for a second. Thieves have no viable condition spec period. A guardian that doesnt faceroll can beat most condition specs unless its an engie because they seem to have insane trouble with them. Only seen a handful of skilled guards beat a skilled engie. Warriors are gone.
Did I say anywhere that necros needed a direct nerf? Nope. The spammy spam spam spam nature of conditions needs to be fixed because its not fair you can faceroll to win while GC specs need to plan out their attacks. Next time you die, click on the little button that shows your death recap. If the enemy dealt more direct damage to you then conditions, he isnt a facerolling noob. If he did, he probably just mashed all his keys until you melted in your boots.
I refuse to go Sword Warhorn and LB as my warrior. Not only is it inferior to all other condition builds, its downright kittenG NOOBY to get an AOE that big that requires so little skill to just plop over a point and sit there waiting for some poor kitten to come in and burn to death

Because there is no stat that reduces condition damage, with a power build you can have toughness/armor and protection, but with conditions you have nothing and they can be spammed having 10 stacks of any condition in an AoE its too much, dont try the vit argument because its not.

Epic.3950:

In pvp it just doesnt make sense. glass is so bad its funny. 50% ish crit chance only 3k attack and a whopping 50% ish crit damage. WTF gives. Glass is supposed to be do or die. If you go half way you get slapped. with conditions they dont have that because most of the time they can be applied from ranges and tick while kiting. Why are conditions stronger than glass in almost every aspect of the game? because they can be cleansed? Yea GL cleansing like 5 condition bombs in a row. With glass you will be lucky to nuke them for half their HP with your full burst. while they just condition bomb you once and walk away as you melt in your boots.

Some of us go glass because there is a need for it. As a Static Discharge Engi, I know that most things in cloth or leather are almost guaranteed to go down within a matter of 2-3 seconds with a well-timed burst from me. That means I can instantly take out a source of high DPS for my team and tip the scales in our favour. And though I can only cleanse one condition at a time, I have several heals available to me, and let’s not forget that a lot of things can be blocked in the first place, which alleviates some of the pain of not having a decent cleanse.

It’s all about playstyle. Some people want to lay down conditions and watch their opponent slowly bleed out, and that works against certain classes. Others need to be dealt with more swiftly, because they will cleanse and heal through condition damage. One is not “better” than the other… each one has its uses.

High-rated burst elementalists and mesmers are the only thing I fear on my condition necromancer.

Some food for thought.

Rezz.8019:

The way it ideally should be:
condition>bunker
bunker>burst
burst>condition

The way it is now:
condition>bunker
condition>burst
bunker>burst

Something is very wrong…

This.

Conditions spamming shutsdown everything currently, too many and too easily applied without a direct counter.

Don’t forget dodge as a counter to all types of burst.