Guild Wars 2

lmao literally :>

zinkz.7045:

apharma.3741:

I am more than aware of scientific practises and the necessity of being able to produce reliable consistent results based on as large a sample size as is feasible.

That’s why I was saying bringing up scientific reasoning is grasping at straws, you can’t apply scientific methodology to this and being that vested in doing so seems a bit over kill especially given the environment as you outlined. I mean come on, it’s a video game and not even a viewed by millions one at that.

The only person grasping at straws is you, making out like I’m expecting it to follow the standards required to get a paper published in Nature is dishonest, the “experiment” and other “evidence” in the thread (both for and against) is simply flawed on the most basic level to the point it is worthless, if you don’t understand that, then that says more about you than anything else.

Expecting it to conform to your ideas of proof seems to be a bit much to me. What would constitute proof to you then if video of one player making it from bronze to platinum/legendary isn’t? 100?

I know a few people who got paced in Bronze but are now in gold/platinum however they didn’t take screenshots at the start or video their progress because as I say, it’s a video game and most people just don’t care to do what you would require as proof.

Ithilwen.1529:

I’m not sure whether to believe “elo hell” exists or not. I do think it has existed in past seasons.

Past seasons didnt have elo hell (it doesnt exist), the mix between pips and MMR didnt let the later work properly , thats what caused a lot of problems in previews seasons.

Season 1 and 4: Basically by limiting the pool of players to a pip range (increasing by time) the game made teams with heavy skill variations, this means a good player that didnt play much will have a lot of chances to get with people much less skilled, and since the MMR was even among teams, he got the middle skilled in the enemy team, conclusion: he rolf stomped and the other team rolf stomped his teammates, so he lost.

This doesnt happen in this season because its a proper MMR setting.

Season 2 and 3: Stacking the best in one team and the worst in other, could end in some guys having heavy losing streaks/winning streaks, that distorted their mmr, allowing them to suffer/benefit more from the system, so either they got carried later or were sent to the pits xd.

apharma.3741:

I know a few people who got paced in Bronze but are now in gold/platinum however they didn’t take screenshots at the start or video their progress because as I say, it’s a video game and most people just don’t care to do what you would require as proof.

Whoosh!

zinkz.7045:

apharma.3741:

I know a few people who got paced in Bronze but are now in gold/platinum however they didn’t take screenshots at the start or video their progress because as I say, it’s a video game and most people just don’t care to do what you would require as proof.

Whookitten

here we go, instead of answering the question we get a snide remark. Anyone worth thier salt would answer or clarify their position.

Edit: lol at that weird censorship

I would like to hear this guy’s reasoning behind why a lot of users are consistently experiencing huge blowouts, losses or wins by 200+ points, in their games. If every game can be carried, why do these games happen so often? If players are where they belong, why do they consistently dominate some teams in their division and get destroyed by others?

sophiewhite.3149:

its fun watching everyone make every excuse they can to “prove” they arent as bad as they actually are.

Based on the people that are yelling at me from time to time I should be, at best, straddling the threshold of Gold and Silver, but I’m actually straddling 1 and 2-pip Gold.

In my case, it’s probably a tactical issue. maining Engi doesn’t help, but I’m usually able to hold or contest a point pretty much forever against anything 1v1 that isn’t a necro or a really good guardian (I mean, I’ll lose the vs. Guardian fight most of the time regardless, it’s just normally it takes a while)… but I often get tunnel vision and either try to take and/or hold a point I have no way of taking back, or I simply miss what someone is saying on team chat and make a strategic gaff (which is, if I’m perfectly honest, is how I ended up ensuring a lose a close match I had this morning, though IMO we were probably going to get a lose anyway) Being paralyzed not knowing where to go and/or stay is also a pretty common thing for me as well: any serious disruption to the point rotation and I’m like a line of ants whose path was cut off, completely lost and needing guidance as to what to do next.

Hopefully by the end of the season I can say I own my place on the ladder, and if it means games where I can say I truly contributed that win, I’d be fine with it being one way or the other.

BloodriverTim.2031:

I would like to hear this guy’s reasoning behind why a lot of users are consistently experiencing huge blowouts, losses or wins by 200+ points, in their games. If every game can be carried, why do these games happen so often? If players are where they belong, why do they consistently dominate some teams in their division and get destroyed by others?

Is it possible the people with these experiences are actually the minority? If you think about it the people having issues would be much more likely to post about it than the people who arent having problems.

There are a few Matchmaking issues that the Devs are aware of and are responding to, hopefully by next season.

However, for the vast majority of matchmaking, the preface that the system will help push players to their proper rating over matches (however long or short) is working. I expect S6 to be slightly better without that oversight of a ‘Substitution MM’ issue.

Zedek.8932:

As someone who is not playing GW2s PvP for many reasons I am basically a spectator and lurker in all these discussions – but I can relate to other PvP/MOBA games I play, so I just want to add I think there are some things are missing in this discussion:

- Reaching the rank/division of players that are closer but not close – and how awkward it is around that point.

Here we have a Pro player with a skill of 10 (out of 10) that starts at 0.
He zips from 1 to 10. Great, no surprise.

But what if you are ranked at 3 but are 5.5.
Now that player won’t be there as easy because the environment in that 3 region is much, much harsher. A 10-player can easily compensate this because of the huge margin in actual skill, but the average Joe does not. So the amount of throws by his mates is much, much higher and of course leads to much, much more frustration over a much, much longer time. And that is not neccessarily the fault of that player.

The amount of Clown Fiestas in low rank games is of course higher and if you are not a pro, you will suffer a big amount of games that can and will lead said player to state that he does not deserve the place he is at.

- Some guys were saying, that, as soon you leave a certain “noob area”, you will climb easier. And yes, that is happening in another game. When I play as premade with a good player, you might think I make them lose, because I am the bar of lead on the team’s leg by being far worse. But guess what: The amount of Clown Fiesta games, troll games and simple idiots is much lower. Like breathing fresh air, that improves even the worse player’s skill. A team-mate that can think by themself or is doing one or two better decisions compared to a low-level team-mate can bring the difference.

I am in said game a Silver/Gold player, but can suddenly compete in Diamond much more often and better. You would expect my winrate drop to 30%, but it does not. Team mates save my life, and I save theirs simply because they have brain. As soon as I SoloQ and go back to my Silver rating, I have suicidal bobs – dragging me down.

In every game with a ranking the rock bottom area of said ranking are FAR, FAR worse than the actual skill, but MMR / Elo fails so much in these regions. Flipping coins is better than any algorhythm developed in certain areas. People say: “You are the constant variable, you will eventually win more games”, but we all know this does not have to happen. In said game, I had a premade troll for example and still lost. If such stuff happens more and more (and biased only on your side – which can happen, no matter how much lazy people will yell “probability theory” and “this will happen to the enemy too” – we all know it does not actually have to happen) you will get stuck and the MMR thinks you belong there.

- Did I read 80% winrate here? Seems like the matchmaking is handing out free wins; opposed side are heavy lose streaks. Sounds awful. Players should never get free wins nor free falls.

Excelsior.

I agree to this.
I am stuck in silver. When pairing with someone 500 points higher i won all matches and can duel and win them as in silver ….

If you are not legendary and can play the classes best suited to advance where you are then you grind. Also lucky placment and you are where yo ubelong. Bad luck and you are there in maybe 500 matches. In the long run maybe but hugely volatile and unfair.

apharma.3741:

megilandil.7506:

Shaogin.2679:

So your explanation is that they were only able to climb from bronze to gold because of luck? You seriously believe that others can only do it because they get lucky and you and others get unlucky? You seriously believe that is a more reasonable explanation than they simply climbed to where they belong and you are stuck where you belong?

It’s official, there is no reasoning with you people. You guys have no intention whatsoever of listening to anyone, so this whole argument is pointless.

oficial is that there is no reasoning with you
i said before with the swimmers example and i repeat now:

a top tier player : world championship level swimmer, put in local championship with a team of local championship level teammates in a relay race can give them and increible amount of seconds of advantage that even if they had the bad luck of be in the worse team of competition they can win
a gold player : national level championship swimmer , gives they a good advantage and can win with low average teams
a silver player : regional level championship swimmer, gives to their team a minor advantage and they win if they are put in and average team, if not the minor advantage gets eaten by the rivals

climbing out of bronze division where the skill gap is greater than the mmr metrics shows is hardest as your true rank more aproaches to bronze that you are more dependant of not geting a bad team(luck)

that we are saying to you is that top 250, platinum, gold players can easy jump the fence of bronze, but silver ones not and the experiment of OP is irrelevant cuz they are top 10 one and probably can win with a team of home tricapers that only spawn autos in bronze and obviously a silver player can’t

The thing is this is only looking at one match or instance, if you truly give your team an advantage, even a small advantage you should be showing it over time. You should be getting g a few top stats if you are the best on the team which reduces the loss of rating on losing and increases rating gain from winning.

I have had a loss take away 15-20 rating with 3 top stats only for me to win it all back next game with again 3 top stats.

If you cannot show that you are better than the people in the game, even if it’s only by a small advantage, then you are in fact in the right division

this small avantage that can give a “true silver” player in a game can be negated by only one bad teammate, that is the point, and dont forget that top bronze/low silver the entry point ,1200 points, where lands more of the new players, that increases the random factor your numerical best player can be a new one and for the other team the same, that is the think that make the most games are not truly balanced in terms of skills when probably we (high bronse low/mid silver)are the large comunity and the one that get the most numericall (in mmr numbers)equilibrated games

So much salt in these responses! Honestly guys there is nothing to prove or disprove. He posted his stats and also streamed every match. Please don’t make claims about what he did or did not do when he has video to back it up, it just makes you look stupid. It’s hard to believe but to get to legendary we have to carry through not just bronze and silver but also gold and platinum. I think some people are just super salty that they cannot do it.

If us as single players are good enough to be legendary then we will be and if not then we have a lot of work to do.

Hanth.2978:

So much salt in these responses! Honestly guys there is nothing to prove or disprove. He posted his stats and also streamed every match. Please don’t make claims about what he did or did not do when he has video to back it up, it just makes you look stupid. It’s hard to believe but to get to legendary we have to carry through not just bronze and silver but also gold and platinum. I think some people are just super salty that they cannot do it.

If us as single players are good enough to be legendary then we will be and if not then we have a lot of work to do.

salt is cuz those entitled players dennie the dificulties of average joes produced by a dev recognized faulty matchmaker saying if they can everyone can

megilandil.7506:

Hanth.2978:

So much salt in these responses! Honestly guys there is nothing to prove or disprove. He posted his stats and also streamed every match. Please don’t make claims about what he did or did not do when he has video to back it up, it just makes you look stupid. It’s hard to believe but to get to legendary we have to carry through not just bronze and silver but also gold and platinum. I think some people are just super salty that they cannot do it.

If us as single players are good enough to be legendary then we will be and if not then we have a lot of work to do.

salt is cuz those entitled players dennie the dificulties of average joes produced by a dev recognized faulty matchmaker saying if they can everyone can

I understand what you are saying but I also watched his streams. Not everyone can win a 1v2 or prevent cap in a 1v3 but some can. There are many legendary players streaming and two things that I have noticed with all of them is they can 1. win the 1v2’s and 1v3’s and 2. always predict how players will react to what’s happening on the map. You are right the average players does face difficulties but being legendary is not for the average player.

Hanth.2978:

megilandil.7506:

Hanth.2978:

So much salt in these responses! Honestly guys there is nothing to prove or disprove. He posted his stats and also streamed every match. Please don’t make claims about what he did or did not do when he has video to back it up, it just makes you look stupid. It’s hard to believe but to get to legendary we have to carry through not just bronze and silver but also gold and platinum. I think some people are just super salty that they cannot do it.

If us as single players are good enough to be legendary then we will be and if not then we have a lot of work to do.

salt is cuz those entitled players dennie the dificulties of average joes produced by a dev recognized faulty matchmaker saying if they can everyone can

I understand what you are saying but I also watched his streams. Not everyone can win a 1v2 or prevent cap in a 1v3 but some can. There are many legendary players streaming and two things that I have noticed with all of them is they can 1. win the 1v2’s and 1v3’s and 2. always predict how players will react to what’s happening on the map. You are right the average players does face difficulties but being legendary is not for the average player.

this is not about reaching legendary, it is about jumping the fence placed in bronze/low silver that someones called “mmr hell”

megilandil.7506:

Hanth.2978:

megilandil.7506:

Hanth.2978:

So much salt in these responses! Honestly guys there is nothing to prove or disprove. He posted his stats and also streamed every match. Please don’t make claims about what he did or did not do when he has video to back it up, it just makes you look stupid. It’s hard to believe but to get to legendary we have to carry through not just bronze and silver but also gold and platinum. I think some people are just super salty that they cannot do it.

If us as single players are good enough to be legendary then we will be and if not then we have a lot of work to do.

salt is cuz those entitled players dennie the dificulties of average joes produced by a dev recognized faulty matchmaker saying if they can everyone can

I understand what you are saying but I also watched his streams. Not everyone can win a 1v2 or prevent cap in a 1v3 but some can. There are many legendary players streaming and two things that I have noticed with all of them is they can 1. win the 1v2’s and 1v3’s and 2. always predict how players will react to what’s happening on the map. You are right the average players does face difficulties but being legendary is not for the average player.

this is not about reaching legendary, it is about jumping the fence placed in bronze/low silver that someones called “mmr hell”

And again a lot of players have done just that…. but right I forgot people in this thread say that doesn’t count….

megilandil.7506:

apharma.3741:

megilandil.7506:

Shaogin.2679:

So your explanation is that they were only able to climb from bronze to gold because of luck? You seriously believe that others can only do it because they get lucky and you and others get unlucky? You seriously believe that is a more reasonable explanation than they simply climbed to where they belong and you are stuck where you belong?

It’s official, there is no reasoning with you people. You guys have no intention whatsoever of listening to anyone, so this whole argument is pointless.

oficial is that there is no reasoning with you
i said before with the swimmers example and i repeat now:

a top tier player : world championship level swimmer, put in local championship with a team of local championship level teammates in a relay race can give them and increible amount of seconds of advantage that even if they had the bad luck of be in the worse team of competition they can win
a gold player : national level championship swimmer , gives they a good advantage and can win with low average teams
a silver player : regional level championship swimmer, gives to their team a minor advantage and they win if they are put in and average team, if not the minor advantage gets eaten by the rivals

climbing out of bronze division where the skill gap is greater than the mmr metrics shows is hardest as your true rank more aproaches to bronze that you are more dependant of not geting a bad team(luck)

that we are saying to you is that top 250, platinum, gold players can easy jump the fence of bronze, but silver ones not and the experiment of OP is irrelevant cuz they are top 10 one and probably can win with a team of home tricapers that only spawn autos in bronze and obviously a silver player can’t

The thing is this is only looking at one match or instance, if you truly give your team an advantage, even a small advantage you should be showing it over time. You should be getting g a few top stats if you are the best on the team which reduces the loss of rating on losing and increases rating gain from winning.

I have had a loss take away 15-20 rating with 3 top stats only for me to win it all back next game with again 3 top stats.

If you cannot show that you are better than the people in the game, even if it’s only by a small advantage, then you are in fact in the right division

this small avantage that can give a “true silver” player in a game can be negated by only one bad teammate, that is the point, and dont forget that top bronze/low silver the entry point ,1200 points, where lands more of the new players, that increases the random factor your numerical best player can be a new one and for the other team the same, that is the think that make the most games are not truly balanced in terms of skills when probably we (high bronse low/mid silver)are the large comunity and the one that get the most numericall (in mmr numbers)equilibrated games

But by that same reasoning isn’t it just as likely the other team has someone that is as bad as the person dragging the silver player down too? I mean you cannot get players who are worse than the enemy team all the time especially when you have such a large player pool as you’re claiming.

people like the one two msg up there, that dont realize that average joe ones not “jump” the fence, slow climb it, and a pair of bad matches, a afker, or just a troll, very common in those lands can ruin the job of days
yes it is posible to do, i did many times and a pair of bad matches, etc etc bring me back again to other side of the “fence”

Shaogin.2679:

I’m really curious about all the logic flying around here. What conditions exactly must a player go through to prove that you will eventually end up in the division you belong? Apparently seeing a player start in bronze and climb to legend isn’t good enough. So what would it take to show you guys that it is possible, or are you guys dead set on denying ant evidence that doesn’t support your claims?

He already proved it to me, tbh. He proved you can climb out of low rank, you can do it with a single profession, and if you are good it’s even easier for you. That’s motivating (even as a non-Mesmer player). Folks like Marvin and Zan motivate me too (because they play Engi <3). Marvin was in the same spot I was in at a time, but seeing him now Top ~50 on his Main and alt (fluctuates) is uplifting.

Personally, I’m making every effort to get better but my problem is currently that I don’t play at the right time of day which hurts (and gets demoralizing because the system really sucks off-hours). If I have a day off (which means to me that I am able to play at the opportune time), I won’t lose as much as I do off-hours and am able to climb right back up.

I didn’t want to believe that at and for some reason didn’t learn the first two major loss-streaks. Took a couple of moments of venting my concerns to finally accept it. The system does have problems (especially as a pure Solo player), but playing at the right time: I’m sure I’ll get back to where I was in mid-Plat and see my friends again (for the third/fourth time…just have to find the time and be patient).

apharma.3741:

It doesn’t prove anything in a scientific term….

Which means it does not prove anything at all, which is the point.

apharma.3741:

To even bring up scientific reasoning is itself grasping at straws…

No, that is how valid, useful experiments work you don’t take a system with many different variables and test it once, with one subject, because that has rather large flaws so does not constitute meaningful proof in any way.

apharma.3741:

Also assuming people must be… to call this proof…

It is amusing you take a throwaway line so seriously, it got the point across that his laughably termed “experiment” it is basically meaningless, same goes for the “proof” people post in this thread, and that if some people don’t realise that, then that is their failing.

And that goes for all the “proof”, so the guy who posted how he is struggling in Gold on one account, yet is on Bronze in another account, having played plenty of games is also not ‘proof’ that Helseth is wrong.

The reality is you can’t do any sort of useful experiment, because this game has not had a stable rating system, so the only players who can be used as a test subject are a tiny handful of very good players who you know should be top division, as you don’t know where the other 99.999% of the players should actually be placed in theory on their ability.

Which is of course useless, because for that to have meaning you would have make massive assumptions like the relationship between skill level and a players ability to influence the game remains a constant regardless of that skill level, teammates, etc, same thing for other factors like matchmaking, you’d have to assume that a guy who works shifts so plays at unusual times, gets the same consistency of matchmaking at 5 AM as he would at 9pm primetime, you’d have to assume every class has the same ability to influence a match & performs the same at platinum as it does at bronze, and so on.

And just to be clear, I’ve played this game about 3 times in the last three months, and gave up on PvP a long time ago (I play SC2 for PvP, at which I am very mediocre) so have no vested interest in this discussion.

I don’t think in strict terms “ELO hell” exists in that if you play enough games eventually a player will move to their correct position, however I think that in a game with all the issues GW2 PvP has, then I can see how it is possible in some circumstances for a player to take much longer than may be desirable or enjoyable to get to their actual placement, to the point it could get conflated with “ELO hell”.

As I said previously, the whole ELO Hell thing is a red herring, most complaints I see or hear about the system aren’t really about the alleged “ELO Hell” at all, at least not in a very black and white sense.

Now do the same with necro and we will have something to talk about…

AngryBear.8741:

Now do the same with necro and we will have something to talk about…

You should take a look at this particular thread in forums wher a player reached legend using core necro

flog.3485:

AngryBear.8741:

Now do the same with necro and we will have something to talk about…

You should take a look at this particular thread in forums wher a player reached legend using core necro

And that proves that 1 (ONE) player in entire game can do it. Thanks for proving exactly what I wanted to say.

AngryBear.8741:

flog.3485:

AngryBear.8741:

Now do the same with necro and we will have something to talk about…

You should take a look at this particular thread in forums wher a player reached legend using core necro

And that proves that 1 (ONE) player in entire game can do it. Thanks for proving exactly what I wanted to say.

Your assumption doesn’t prove anything imo. You really believe that all PvP players who reach legendary are out on forums saying that they finally reached this tier ?

flog.3485:

AngryBear.8741:

flog.3485:

AngryBear.8741:

Now do the same with necro and we will have something to talk about…

You should take a look at this particular thread in forums wher a player reached legend using core necro

And that proves that 1 (ONE) player in entire game can do it. Thanks for proving exactly what I wanted to say.

Your assumption doesn’t prove anything imo. You really believe that all PvP players who reach legendary are out on forums saying that they finally reached this tier ?

Someone reaching legendary with necro solo queue (especially starting from bronze)? Yes, I believe everyone achieving that would post it on forums.

AngryBear.8741:

flog.3485:

AngryBear.8741:

flog.3485:

AngryBear.8741:

Now do the same with necro and we will have something to talk about…

You should take a look at this particular thread in forums wher a player reached legend using core necro

And that proves that 1 (ONE) player in entire game can do it. Thanks for proving exactly what I wanted to say.

Your assumption doesn’t prove anything imo. You really believe that all PvP players who reach legendary are out on forums saying that they finally reached this tier ?

Someone reaching legendary with necro solo queue (especially starting from bronze)? Yes, I believe everyone achieving that would post it on forums.

This is a ridicilous statement.

I don’t play necro and I could easily climb out of bronze playing it with a similiar winratio to my mesmer. People dont manage condition cleanses there or dodge key skills, you’ll literally oneshot people with either power or condi just doing reaper 5 and reaper 4.

The gameplay I did to climb bronze (push far, stand outside node when people outnumber, kill 1v1 when people finally rotate out) easily works with every single class (including fresh air ele) for bronze.

jesus, the idea that NOBODY could EVER soloque out of bronze with necro is just.. insane. There is no way you watched my climb. Absolutely no way.

nothelseth.4621:

AngryBear.8741:

flog.3485:

AngryBear.8741:

flog.3485:

AngryBear.8741:

Now do the same with necro and we will have something to talk about…

You should take a look at this particular thread in forums wher a player reached legend using core necro

And that proves that 1 (ONE) player in entire game can do it. Thanks for proving exactly what I wanted to say.

Your assumption doesn’t prove anything imo. You really believe that all PvP players who reach legendary are out on forums saying that they finally reached this tier ?

Someone reaching legendary with necro solo queue (especially starting from bronze)? Yes, I believe everyone achieving that would post it on forums.

This is a ridicilous statement.

I don’t play necro and I could easily climb out of bronze playing it with a similiar winratio to my mesmer. People dont manage condition cleanses there or dodge key skills, you’ll literally oneshot people with either power or condi just doing reaper 5 and reaper 4.

The gameplay I did to climb bronze (push far, stand outside node when people outnumber, kill 1v1 when people finally rotate out) easily works with every single class (including fresh air ele) for bronze.

jesus, the idea that NOBODY could EVER soloque out of bronze with necro is just.. insane. There is no way you watched my climb. Absolutely no way.

I was not saying nobody can do that. I was saying that amount of people that can do that with necro, comparing to amount of people who can do it with some other class (especially mesmer), is basically statistical error.

And dude, being one of the best players achieving this proves nothing. It is like saying that because Micheal Jordan at his prime could carry any NCAA team to the title means that if you think you are good, you should be able to do the same.

AngryBear.8741:

nothelseth.4621:

AngryBear.8741:

flog.3485:

AngryBear.8741:

flog.3485:

AngryBear.8741:

Now do the same with necro and we will have something to talk about…

You should take a look at this particular thread in forums wher a player reached legend using core necro

And that proves that 1 (ONE) player in entire game can do it. Thanks for proving exactly what I wanted to say.

Your assumption doesn’t prove anything imo. You really believe that all PvP players who reach legendary are out on forums saying that they finally reached this tier ?

Someone reaching legendary with necro solo queue (especially starting from bronze)? Yes, I believe everyone achieving that would post it on forums.

This is a ridicilous statement.

I don’t play necro and I could easily climb out of bronze playing it with a similiar winratio to my mesmer. People dont manage condition cleanses there or dodge key skills, you’ll literally oneshot people with either power or condi just doing reaper 5 and reaper 4.

The gameplay I did to climb bronze (push far, stand outside node when people outnumber, kill 1v1 when people finally rotate out) easily works with every single class (including fresh air ele) for bronze.

jesus, the idea that NOBODY could EVER soloque out of bronze with necro is just.. insane. There is no way you watched my climb. Absolutely no way.

I was not saying nobody can do that. I was saying that amount of people that can do that with necro, comparing to amount of people who can do it with some other class (especially mesmer), is basically statistical error.

And dude, being one of the best players achieving this proves nothing. It is like saying that because Micheal Jordan at his prime could carry any NCAA team to the title means that if you think you are good, you should be able to do the same.

And I say that literally every single good necro (legend, high plat) in the game could easily carry bronze just as easily I did on mesmer. (dont misunderstand this into me saying you need to be that level to CLIMB there. No, it’s to carry there with a 80+% winratio like I did)The only build change I’d do is slap on wurm and you’re ready to carry.

I also want to ask you again; Did you even watch my gameplay in bronze? You’re saying that I did it with help of being mesmer as if it’s relevant at all. It’s absolutely not, anyone who watched the progression would know that.

nothelseth.4621:

AngryBear.8741:

nothelseth.4621:

AngryBear.8741:

flog.3485:

AngryBear.8741:

flog.3485:

AngryBear.8741:

Now do the same with necro and we will have something to talk about…

You should take a look at this particular thread in forums wher a player reached legend using core necro

And that proves that 1 (ONE) player in entire game can do it. Thanks for proving exactly what I wanted to say.

Your assumption doesn’t prove anything imo. You really believe that all PvP players who reach legendary are out on forums saying that they finally reached this tier ?

Someone reaching legendary with necro solo queue (especially starting from bronze)? Yes, I believe everyone achieving that would post it on forums.

This is a ridicilous statement.

I don’t play necro and I could easily climb out of bronze playing it with a similiar winratio to my mesmer. People dont manage condition cleanses there or dodge key skills, you’ll literally oneshot people with either power or condi just doing reaper 5 and reaper 4.

The gameplay I did to climb bronze (push far, stand outside node when people outnumber, kill 1v1 when people finally rotate out) easily works with every single class (including fresh air ele) for bronze.

jesus, the idea that NOBODY could EVER soloque out of bronze with necro is just.. insane. There is no way you watched my climb. Absolutely no way.

I was not saying nobody can do that. I was saying that amount of people that can do that with necro, comparing to amount of people who can do it with some other class (especially mesmer), is basically statistical error.

And dude, being one of the best players achieving this proves nothing. It is like saying that because Micheal Jordan at his prime could carry any NCAA team to the title means that if you think you are good, you should be able to do the same.

And I say that literally every single good necro in the game could easily carry bronze just as easily I did on mesmer. The only build change I’d do is slap on wurm and you’re ready to carry.

I also want to ask you again; Did you even watch my gameplay in bronze? You’re saying that I did it with help of being mesmer as if it’s relevant at all. It’s absolutely not, anyone who watched the progression would know that.

I did not watch your streams but I did watch few videos you posted on YT (I don’t know how many in total you posted but I’ve seen few).

And I am not talking about carrying bronze. I am talking about starting in bronze and then carrying teams all the way to the legendary as if EVERYTHING depends on you (with necro). I believe you and few players can do that, but the game is not designed to be played by you and few other people and rest of us to admire how awesome you are (even though I am sure you enjoy that very much).

So you saw two videos of my bronze climb gameplay (at best)

My climb in bronze was simple; my opponents were on a level where it did not matter what they played or what I pushed into. Mesmer should realistically lose to warrior and dragonhunter, stale vs engi and druid. All of these matchups I pushed into and killed with ease. I’d get outnumbered at far, kite to the highground and let my bronzies fight 4v3, sometimes 4v2 as I was 1v3. My opponents would outnumber me for a crazy amount of time and thge second they gave up on doing it I’d push into the 1v1 and instantly win it.

Do you think this would be impossible with necro? No. I’d kill the 1v1 even faster. It has nothing to do with me being one of the best players in the world because once you’re playing at my level you play it as if it’s a fighting game. I can’t show my proper skill vs opponents who arent good enough because there is no mindgames, reading and outplay potential. I killed people on a basic offensive rotation which would have worked on every single class including FA el e.

You should always play as if everything depends on you. Are you going into competitive matches expecting to be carried? Every single decision from your end should be to maximize your teams winning chances.

I’ll say it again:

Every single good necro in the game would EASILY destroy bronze. And I’m not talking ESL. I’m not talking tournament play or people I would even recognize as people on my playing field. People I’d get tilted over playing with would still annihilate opponents in bronze.

Outside of that, we have a post of a guy soloquing to legendary playing core necro. Do you think this guy would lose in bronze? Because that seems to be what you hinted at with your posts. Trust me; he wouldnt.

The issue is that the OP is not a typical case player. As such, he’s not a suitable case for an experiment like the one we’re talking about. That makes the experiment invalid ( in the logic sense of the word.)

The fact that an ESL player can climb through divisions is not relevant to the existence or non-existence of “elo hell.” It does validate “smurfing” as a strategy.

The idea of “elo hell” applies when: player of skill level that could be (for example) Bronze or Silver finds it impossible to climb out of Bronze.

I understand the motive of promoting “competitive” attitudes. I myself am trying to have a more “competitive” mindset as promoted by Helseth.

This experiment doesn’t prove it’s hypothesis, a priori, because it wasn’t set up well.

Ithilwen.1529:

The idea of “elo hell” applies when: player of skill level that could be (for example) Bronze or Silver finds it impossible to climb out of Bronze.

If this is your view of elo hell then there is no problem. You’re losing because you have room to improve and it’s your task to do so. The problem is when people throw out statements such as ‘’there is only one player in the world who could climb out of bronze’’ or ‘’there is no way you could ever soloque as a necro from bronze to legend’’ or equally ridicilous statments.

They poison the community and the posters saying it themselves. I’ve never seen anyone who constantly complain about his goals being impossible achieve those goals.

If elo hell=you’re at the division level your skill level represents (low silver player in high bronze-low silver) then you have a different view from the people who insist that in reality they should be platinum but it’s just their teammates holding them back.

Ithilwen.1529:

The issue is that the OP is not a typical case player. As such, he’s not a suitable case for an experiment like the one we’re talking about. That makes the experiment invalid ( in the logic sense of the word.)

The fact that an ESL player can climb through divisions is not relevant to the existence or non-existence of “elo hell.” It does validate “smurfing” as a strategy.

The idea of “elo hell” applies when: player of skill level that could be (for example) Bronze or Silver finds it impossible to climb out of Bronze.

I understand the motive of promoting “competitive” attitudes. I myself am trying to have a more “competitive” mindset as promoted by Helseth.

This experiment doesn’t prove it’s hypothesis, a priori, because it wasn’t set up well.

This…

And I didn’t say that there is only one player in the world who can do anything. I said that so far we know of a single case but still even though some others can do that, number of people who can do that with class x is significantly lower than number of people who can do it with class y, simply because class y has a lot more carry potential.

Anyway, let us see you (top most awesome player in the world) do the same with necro and shut me up for good. It is still lose-lose because even if you can do it, it still proves nothing because you are among top 5 players in the world and like I said, the game shouldn’t be tailered for top 5 people in the world, or even top 100.

Ask yourself why GW2 has such a poor PvP scene comparing to other games (I am referring to number of people playing).

Ithilwen.1529:

The idea of “elo hell” applies when: player of skill level that could be (for example) Bronze or Silver finds it impossible to climb out of Bronze.

No the idea of elo hell is a person who imagines he’s on platinum skill level, but is actually bronze material, that is stuck in bronze.

Ofc a bronze player is stuck in bronze. How’s that bad? That’s where he belongs. If he wants to climb out of that it’s a simple matter of getting slightly better at the game. Unless he actually improves he’s exactly where he should be.

@nothelseth

I haven’t complained of being in “elo hell.” I’m not overly happy with the matchmaking, but it’s better than it has been.

My argument is that your experiment didn’t prove what it was claimed it did.

-edit- after re -reading your post, Ok that puts the experiment in a different light. I can see what you’re getting at then.

Ithilwen.1529:

The issue is that the OP is not a typical case player. As such, he’s not a suitable case for an experiment like the one we’re talking about. That makes the experiment invalid ( in the logic sense of the word.)

The fact that an ESL player can climb through divisions is not relevant to the existence or non-existence of “elo hell.” It does validate “smurfing” as a strategy.

The idea of “elo hell” applies when: player of skill level that could be (for example) Bronze or Silver finds it impossible to climb out of Bronze.

I understand the motive of promoting “competitive” attitudes. I myself am trying to have a more “competitive” mindset as promoted by Helseth.

This experiment doesn’t prove it’s hypothesis, a priori, because it wasn’t set up well.

I am no top player, I have never participated in ranked before this season and I was able to climb out out of bronze easily. I also use subpar keybindings (such as mouse clicking my f2-f4 shatters lol) and I have been able to kill DH quite easily as well in bronze. How do you explain that ? I have bad news: if it is impossible for a player to climb out of bronze, it just means that a player belongs to bronze. Personally, I got out by mostly spamming my skills out of cooldowns. I am currently stuck in silver in a 1 win-1 loose situation playing in the same way as in bronze. What does it mean? It means that I need to get better in terms of mechanics and rotations if I ever want to get out of silver.

Crinn.7864:

Wolfric.9380:

Now repeat it playing elementalist ^^.

tbh ele is the best carry class behind Mesmer.

And yet..you play necro….

Crinn.7864:

Wolfric.9380:

Now repeat it playing elementalist ^^.

tbh ele is the best carry class behind Mesmer.

You are delusional.

Supreme.3164:

Crinn.7864:

Wolfric.9380:

Now repeat it playing elementalist ^^.

tbh ele is the best carry class behind Mesmer.

And yet..you play necro….

support ele + necro is one of the easiest ways to snowball a match.

This is so laughable, why do you even reply to those people ? We all have seen you, some of us even faced you as opponent, your live streams, your recorded videos all prove the truth behind every competitive ladder system ! It is not even how good or skillfull each one is, its about WHAT you do when it really matters ! After all these discussions-proofs people are defending their ego by trying to reject all these facts with some ridiculous arguments and excuses.. You don’t have to be smart enough to realise what’s really going on : Buttt-hurted people facing the truth.

Elo hell 100% exists. You are playing a mes, and a good player will have a 60-80% winrate in bronze across 50 games depending on class. However it’s still possible to lose 7 games straight, and people with less games are more exposed to elo hell.

This goes for any game with a ranked system though.

Ele is not a good carry class in bronze/silver. That’s a better class for when theres somebody on your team with keeping alive.

NeXeD.3042:

BloodriverTim.2031:

I would like to hear this guy’s reasoning behind why a lot of users are consistently experiencing huge blowouts, losses or wins by 200+ points, in their games. If every game can be carried, why do these games happen so often? If players are where they belong, why do they consistently dominate some teams in their division and get destroyed by others?

Is it possible the people with these experiences are actually the minority? If you think about it the people having issues would be much more likely to post about it than the people who arent having problems.

Oh it’s you again. Yes of course it’s possible I’m in the minority, but why does this minority exist if the system is working properly?

zinkz.7045:

apharma.3741:

It doesn’t prove anything in a scientific term….

Which means it does not prove anything at all, which is the point.

apharma.3741:

To even bring up scientific reasoning is itself grasping at straws…

No, that is how valid, useful experiments work you don’t take a system with many different variables and test it once, with one subject, because that has rather large flaws so does not constitute meaningful proof in any way.

apharma.3741:

Also assuming people must be… to call this proof…

It is amusing you take a throwaway line so seriously, it got the point across that his laughably termed “experiment” it is basically meaningless, same goes for the “proof” people post in this thread, and that if some people don’t realise that, then that is their failing.

And that goes for all the “proof”, so the guy who posted how he is struggling in Gold on one account, yet is on Bronze in another account, having played plenty of games is also not ‘proof’ that Helseth is wrong.

The reality is you can’t do any sort of useful experiment, because this game has not had a stable rating system, so the only players who can be used as a test subject are a tiny handful of very good players who you know should be top division, as you don’t know where the other 99.999% of the players should actually be placed in theory on their ability.

Which is of course useless, because for that to have meaning you would have make massive assumptions like the relationship between skill level and a players ability to influence the game remains a constant regardless of that skill level, teammates, etc, same thing for other factors like matchmaking, you’d have to assume that a guy who works shifts so plays at unusual times, gets the same consistency of matchmaking at 5 AM as he would at 9pm primetime, you’d have to assume every class has the same ability to influence a match & performs the same at platinum as it does at bronze, and so on.

And just to be clear, I’ve played this game about 3 times in the last three months, and gave up on PvP a long time ago (I play SC2 for PvP, at which I am very mediocre) so have no vested interest in this discussion.

I don’t think in strict terms “ELO hell” exists in that if you play enough games eventually a player will move to their correct position, however I think that in a game with all the issues GW2 PvP has, then I can see how it is possible in some circumstances for a player to take much longer than may be desirable or enjoyable to get to their actual placement, to the point it could get conflated with “ELO hell”.

As I said previously, the whole ELO Hell thing is a red herring, most complaints I see or hear about the system aren’t really about the alleged “ELO Hell” at all, at least not in a very black and white sense.

This game has had a behind the scenes matchmaking system and rating for years, we don’t have access to it but ANet do and some people can tell what their skill level was based on who they fought regularly. They used to regularly face ESL players in queues and not at irregular times and had team mates that did rotate, knew their roles and performed well.

I mean I get what you’re saying about non of this having much scientific basis at all but what I’ve been saying is that this is a video game which is also intended for fun. Carrying out any form of experiment that would qualify to being called scientific would require far more effort than what most people care to do or would want to do. It also seems a bit silly to want to apply scientific principles to it.

Again other top players have made the climb from bronze or silver to platinum and legendary.

nothelseth.4621:

Ithilwen.1529:

The idea of “elo hell” applies when: player of skill level that could be (for example) Bronze or Silver finds it impossible to climb out of Bronze.

If this is your view of elo hell then there is no problem. You’re losing because you have room to improve and it’s your task to do so. The problem is when people throw out statements such as ‘’there is only one player in the world who could climb out of bronze’’ or ‘’there is no way you could ever soloque as a necro from bronze to legend’’ or equally ridicilous statments.

They poison the community and the posters saying it themselves. I’ve never seen anyone who constantly complain about his goals being impossible achieve those goals.

If elo hell=you’re at the division level your skill level represents (low silver player in high bronze-low silver) then you have a different view from the people who insist that in reality they should be platinum but it’s just their teammates holding them back.

No one throw out those statements, you are, i supose for that is said here, a top player, a ESL player one of the 0.01% top elite of the game, and that makes your questionable experiment in moral stuff not representative for the 99.99% of players and less for the ones that are silver/ bronze, you only fact that you can do it not that everyone can do

Im not saying that i have to be platinum, in the old ranked leaderboard im a sad 98% one and managed to stay in it with a 50% win ratio, other leagues i hit ruby and this one after placement i get a 1480 falling after quicklie to 1000(my fault, playing to much firsts days with system not stabilized and getting mostly the bad side of coin) i think that with those historial i belong in silver, i dunno firsts or last tier but bouncing in it, maybe on a lucky streak hit gold to fall to silver again

BloodriverTim.2031:

NeXeD.3042:

BloodriverTim.2031:

I would like to hear this guy’s reasoning behind why a lot of users are consistently experiencing huge blowouts, losses or wins by 200+ points, in their games. If every game can be carried, why do these games happen so often? If players are where they belong, why do they consistently dominate some teams in their division and get destroyed by others?

Is it possible the people with these experiences are actually the minority? If you think about it the people having issues would be much more likely to post about it than the people who arent having problems.

Oh it’s you again. Yes of course it’s possible I’m in the minority, but why does this minority exist if the system is working properly?

This isn’t the same. A system working properly means that statistically it works as intended with a very high probability.
What you are asking is a perfect system, which just isn’t possible.

Ithilwen.1529:

The idea of “elo hell” applies when: player of skill level that could be (for example) Bronze or Silver finds it impossible to climb out of Bronze.

Wrong.

Has this been what was being explained the whole time? No no no no NO! Holy crap people we need to fix this.

Elo Hell is NOT applied when a bronze/silver player is having issues getting out of bronze. Because if he’s bronze he’s reached his current peak and thus in order to get out of bronze, needs to start playing at a Silver or higher level. If he’s silver, he’s going to spend more time given the ratings are similar.

Elo Hell, a hilarious term that came from as far as I know League of Legends, describes the scenario where an extremely good player (say Plat or Legend) is unable to climb out of a lower rating due to factors outside his/her control. League had a nature around it for ‘snowballing’ to occur rapidly, or the expectation of the good player of his teammates was way off causing a loss.

We thankfully do not have that issue. Legend players are not being trapped down in Silver for dozens of games. That would have been what Elo Hell would have meant here. The fact that Helseth was able to get out of Bronze is testament to this case.

Describing Elo Hell as anything else is inappropriate. If you want to say that the system not allowing a bronze player to leave bronze is not good, I will disagree ultimately with that.

We just gotta get good any carry ourselves. If you manage yourself, you will manage your team. Because: strength of the team is each member and the strength of each member, is the team. (Yes, it’s from Paladins. Who knows this quote, knows what I am talking about)
But what should we do in situations when one (so called “carry”) is tanking 2 or 3 enemy players, and the rest of the team still manages to die and not take a single cap?

Rodzynald.5897:

But what should we do in situations when one (so called “carry”) is tanking 2 or 3 enemy players, and the rest of the team still manages to die and not take a single cap?

Well at that point lose the game, queue up and win the next one?

Let’s be honest, if you can consistently create advantages for your team because you are a player better than the rank you are currently at, you will start rising in rating. You will start having slightly more competent teammates than the previous rank, and if you rinse and repeat, your teammates are more likely to capitalize on you being a baws at far holding down the support and Necro (somehow).

I do expect that in bronze you will have teammates more susceptible to losing a 4v3 at mid or some other matchup, but not every single game in bronze is like that. Simple math really, 4 bronzes beat 3 bronzes.

Sykper.6583:

Rodzynald.5897:

But what should we do in situations when one (so called “carry”) is tanking 2 or 3 enemy players, and the rest of the team still manages to die and not take a single cap?

Well at that point lose the game, queue up and win the next one?

Let’s be honest, if you can consistently create advantages for your team because you are a player better than the rank you are currently at, you will start rising in rating. You will start having slightly more competent teammates than the previous rank, and if you rinse and repeat, your teammates are more likely to capitalize on you being a baws at far holding down the support and Necro (somehow).

I do expect that in bronze you will have teammates more susceptible to losing a 4v3 at mid or some other matchup, but not every single game in bronze is like that. Simple math really, 4 bronzes beat 3 bronzes.

I’ll be totally honest, though, I’d say a good third of the games I’ve played have been like the above.

The deal is this; the majority of PvP players are where they deserve to be, and they’re going to understand that.

Obviously sub-par players getting lucky and carried into divisions they do not belong are not going to complain because they’re doing better than they should be or think they are also where they should be.

The vocal minority, however, is going to be the equally-or-smaller-sized group which gets perpetually unlucky and quite knowingly and obviously are not in the divisions they belong in.

So you’re going to get complaints made by a small portion of people largely all claiming to be better than they are placed with a fair degree of truth backed nothing by anecdotal evidence, while the majority is in the right place. It’s only logical to make the assumption it’s their fault, but mathematically-speaking, it’s very probable these people are actually being mis-represented.

I spent over 200 games struggling in silver due to big losses from what were caused mostly by scenarios like the above after losing my first game after placements in gold by less than 30 points. Aside from when I started decaying a number of days ago from just not playing GW2/PvP’ing, I never played a game in Bronze. That said, it was not uncommon for me to be dealing 50%+ team damage and all six top-player bonuses in these games as well. Given even a single good heavy on my team, I’d usually be in a position to carry; given more or less, the games would be blowouts in both directions. Meanwhile, there is a tiny fraction of the player base that just gets strictly lucky in matchups and go 15-0 to top the leaderboards. They are likely great players as well, but a big streak of wins isn’t impossible and is likely probable given the number of PvP matches that happen in a day. I know a number of people who got into higher tiers, decayed into lower ones, and got stuck there due to a streak of losses.

Largely I think people are where they deserve to be, but there will definitely be edge cases that strictly speaking have very valid complaints. As time has gone on this season, the complaint threads have gone down generally-speaking with people settling in better, but mathematically speaking, there will be players who absolutely do not deserve to be in the tiers they’re in.

Rodzynald.5897:

We just gotta get good any carry ourselves. If you manage yourself, you will manage your team. Because: strength of the team is each member and the strength of each member, is the team. (Yes, it’s from Paladins. Who knows this quote, knows what I am talking about)
But what should we do in situations when one (so called “carry”) is tanking 2 or 3 enemy players, and the rest of the team still manages to die and not take a single cap?

You stop tanking and go help your teammates. Those things also happened to NotHelseth during the streams. What he did was to disengage from far, got to mid, win the cap, push back to far to wait for the respawns. If your team can’t get the point by themselves, you force it and take it for them to hold while you tank elsewhere.