Guild Wars 2

Detharos.3157:

Getting focused on by SF is taking its toll, and currently having SF (at least as it was 4 minutes ago, when I logged) outnumbering us by 1.5-2x in our own borderlands is pretty miserable, especially doubled with every keep having insufficient upgrades due to the night time push, along with having ET surpass our points due to this focus. (No offense ET.)

Morale dropping rapidly, ArenaNet continues to ignore our pleading, and we just can’t compete with our 7 gram rock popping tiger-blooded opponents. Woe is me, but at least I have enough quaggan tonics to overcome this depressing phase of WvW history.

Kukchi.6173:

Animus.6453:

Decent start to the week despite some heavy offense early on from ET and SF.

Also, to the SF currently at Redbriar defending like bosses.. I have this screenshot for you. I hope it grinds your gears.

Fun while it lasted. (I hope they remove them from WvW soon, so brokenly OP)

Hey its the commander you stun spammed but couldn’t kill, it was fun defending from your excessive cheapness and more so rewarding when we took AB from you guys while having less numbers. I am actively hunting you on the battlefield.

I look forward to it.

Detharos.3157:

And just add to the pain, SF’s rating got hosed last week by this crazed system. No doubt it will drop to as low as 7- this week if the score’s remain similar.

Our rating actually went up by about 14 points last week.

If the current trend continues, we should be winning by an even larger margin than last week since it was still fairly even this time last week. This week not so much.

silverfire.2547:

Detharos.3157:

And just add to the pain, SF’s rating got hosed last week by this crazed system. No doubt it will drop to as low as 7- this week if the score’s remain similar.

Our rating actually went up by about 14 points last week.

If the current trend continues, we should be winning by an even larger margin than last week since it was still fairly even this time last week. This week not so much.

I’m well aware that it went up last week. You are aware that 14 points is nothing in comparison to the 50+ rating Sorrow’s Furnace was gaining for near identical point leads in the past weeks? That’s right, its exactly as people have already explained to you in past threads. Glicko2 is making a projection of improvement for your server, and because it isn’t living up to the expectations, it is already punishing your ratings. Compare that to the previous weeks of 50+ rating and your weekly rating increase has dropped by well over 50% in a single week.

In other words, your weekly rating has already decreased in a sense. Depending on the trend, it could keep SF here for weeks-months more than it should be. Let’s face it, unless we and Eredon’s Terrace hand over victory to you on a platter or our numbers continue to drop from demoralizing victories, you will continue to ring in 350k-370k victories week in and out. And if that continues, Glicko2 is just going to keep chopping the weekly rating increases of Sorrow’s Furnace down, and possibly into then negatives before long.

I’m not blaming Sorrow’s Furnace for its numbers nor its massive victories, but the fact that it is no longer suited to this tier has long been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. So does it really come as a surprise/bother you when people like me make the occasional complaint about the system that shackles your server here for so many more weeks than necessary? I’ve gone to a lengths to remove any ill-feelings I might have towards your server from my posts. Am I also expected to start holding up the Glicko2 system to an altar of praise when a few manual adjustments could of provided much better match ups, much faster?

I wonder if you were a hardcore WvW player, a commander and officer of a hardcore WvW guild, and rolled on a server that’s been continually dominated for 3 months+ and tried to keep people’s morale up in a WvW situation where there is literally next to zero incentive/purpose to continuing (Whether we try or not at this point makes absolutely little difference to the overall score. And all efforts in the end amount to nothing more than a server-wide lackluster buff that doesn’t do anything to turn the tide in WvW, just like the outmanned buff.).. if after all that you’d be singing the same tune you have been?

Let’s face it, Eredon’s Terrace and Ferguson’s Crossing don’t have some massive nonparticipating PvE population that you seem to think we do. Even if we had, nobody’s gonna try to convince them to jump in on a one-sided, costly , boring match-up. Some of us already tried that with some folks however; many of them reported that they lost interest when the first time they ever tried WvW was walking into a situation in certain maps where all three spawn exits had multiple ballistas set up with squadrons of SF guarding them.

If our servers show up listed a having the same population, I daresay its likely from accounts of individuals who’ve long since quit the game keeping a phantom number count.

TBH, I’ve long lost the ability to understand where all these indignant responses come from, perhaps its from the fact that up until now we’ve always yielded a resistance in the face of adversity. That itself is a testament to the very fact that our servers are NOT “carebear” servers by any means. Lord forbid someone get’s angry over people who play the game for WvW stepping out and doing what they like to do, with a complaint about server imbalance here and there.

Detharos.3157:

Let’s face it, unless we and Eredon’s Terrace hand over victory to you on a platter or our numbers continue to drop from demoralizing victories, (…)

I’m counting on it.

This time last week the scores were much closer. There have been a couple posts made in this very thread as well about you guys taking a break from WvW. The people who actually posted to that effect cannot be alone in taking a step back from WvW, and I’m banking on that in predicting that we win by an even bigger margin this week.

If this prediction galvanizes people on your server to return out of spite then so be it. More badges for me to earn in that case. If not then cutting into that margin between T8 and T7 is just as good.

Either way, I win.

Detharos.3157:

TBH, I’ve long lost the ability to understand where all these indignant responses come from, perhaps its from the fact that up until now we’ve always yielded a resistance in the face of adversity. That itself is a testament to the very fact that our servers are NOT “carebear” servers by any means. Lord forbid someone get’s angry over people who play the game for WvW stepping out and doing what they like to do, with a complaint about server imbalance here and there.

QFT! :-)

Logged on last night and there were about six people from ET in WvW. Grabbed a couple of camps got rolled by a roaming Ferg group, squashed a couple of SF noobs and sat around for a bit to see if we might get enough people for a breakout. We didn’t. Got bored and left again to do PVE.

Too boring. At this rate by the end of the week there won’t be any ET in WvW at all.

No doubt SF (and you can take that abbreviation to mean the server or it’s self-appointed forum champion) will feel godlike, kicking goals on an empty field.

Does being the only halfway intelligent thing in an otherwise empty universe make you it’s de-facto deity? Some sort of prince of limbo, playing toy soldiers with the camp guards and pretending they’re real? Will you start dancing on the corpses of the tower lords, even as they vanish? Will you laugh at the breakout commanders because there is no one else to hear you?

Should change the title of the thread to ``many woes``.

So it seems Weird Al has just about thrown in the towel at this point. Meanwhile, Bean cruises around in his British Leyland Mini enjoying the free space while Sheenster makes his move for world domination.

PREPARE YOURSELVES.

Will Sheen’s dreams become reality? Stay tuned.

Oh come now, our dreams aren’t THAT ambitious!

Detharos.3157:

I’m well aware that it went up last week. You are aware that 14 points is nothing in comparison to the 50+ rating Sorrow’s Furnace was gaining for near identical point leads in the past weeks? That’s right, its exactly as people have already explained to you in past threads. Glicko2 is making a projection of improvement for your server, and because it isn’t living up to the expectations, it is already punishing your ratings. Compare that to the previous weeks of 50+ rating and your weekly rating increase has dropped by well over 50% in a single week.

Good catch, I just noticed that SF’s gains were down in the last week, and FC and ET went up.

I wonder if some of the more active WvW Guilds or individuals are moving away from SF because they don’t want to be stuck in aT8 world Which when you consider they need to make a 100+ point jump (and that is after gaining 110+ points the last 2 weeks) to even start begin to move into T7, and with only a 14 point gain this last week (really only giving them a 5 Point move towards T7, which would set them up to be in T8 for a very, very, long time), that very well could be the case, but because the transfers cost money now, the shifts would be smaller then in the past with Free Transfers.

We would be looking at Just a few players here and there, maybe a small guild, or a very rich one. And I’ll admit, had not really thought about that, but after 6 weeks in T8, with no end in sight, that could grate on their members as well even if they are getting the most points.

Now, to be honest, I have no idea if there is any truth to such speculation, but it is food for thought.

so i spent the last 2 days doing exactly what i said i was going to do… despite our somewhat stronger showing that usual in WvW, i avoided it. i ran Maw, killed dragons, leveled an alt. made my way to Orr and loaded up on jewelry boxes, explored… a bunch of stuff i’d been neglecting. and then this morning… after a leisurely morning making the rounds… to check what events were up, and 2 quick blitzes of AC paths 2 and 3… the call appears in guild chat “we have nothing. 0. GUILD ASSEMBLE! RED ALERT!” i think the whole server had a “aw heck naw” moment. i know i sure did.

i’m not sure if i will be playing WvW tonight. i am still somewhat disgusted with, and need a brief break from, WvW, but for one glorious hour we rampaged across the lands, retaking our homelands from green and blue and sweeping the enemy from our borders. there was no snark in /map chat. there was very little disorganization, we just got it done.

we may be the severe underdogs in this fight, but dang… for one brief moment it was fun. Thank you Commanders and PK for this great experience.

Detharos.3157:

So it seems Weird Al has just about thrown in the towel at this point. Meanwhile, Bean cruises around in his British Leyland Mini enjoying the free space while Sheenster makes his move for world domination.

PREPARE YOURSELVES.

Will Sheen’s dreams become reality? Stay tuned.

Lol…we don’t come close to be in tier 1.

scooby treat.8420:

@ungood

I hear ya man its a great feeling when you see everyone working together. Not only does it help your server it puts everyone in a better mood and people want to pitch in. When FC works together I love it. People talking in map saying “i’m upgrading the supply camp” or “i’m going to grab the frogs/ogres” stuff like that. It just helps sooooo much.

IT IS!

Well this afternoon before work, I was messing around, doing my normal PvE thing, getting my daily and doing what I suppose anyone normally does, Dragons, Dungeons, Crafting, the run to Maw, now that it is working again! Kudos to the Devs for the Fix. You know, the normal stuff.

Anyway, see the bat signal in the guild channel and the call for the Avengers to Assemble, and I’ll be honest here, WvWvW has gotten largely drab for me, and I have been feeling a little burned out by it, last night I did not do it all, Albeit, I also went to bed early, but still the urge has been dwindling none the less.

So I look at my Daily, now down, monthly done as well, no Dragons up, so, I join the hunt.

Wow. Seeing, I would have to guess well over 20 people in a zerg ball, I might even go so far as to wager there may have been 30, we are stomping the entire map around our borderlands, bashing down walls, destroying everything in our path. Now I’ll admit. by the time I got my bottom moving the early jumpers had already reclaimed half the map, so I charged along for the other half.

It was quite fun, if fleeting, and I was running out of time fast, my biggest note of regregt for the day was that I killed 10 people and only netted a single badge, at that rate, it’s going to take me a thousand dead to get a single legendary. Not that I have any issues killing a thousand invaders mind you, but, geeze Louise, that is going to take a long time, especially with burnout hanging over my head.

Okay not here to troll, not here to complain about uneven matches. or to say “oh SF is bigger..blah blah blah”

All i am here to post is how bored the winning team seems to becoming. Though i don’t blame them when they can control EB easily :p

Though it is giving me adequate practice on stealthing to destroy siege so thank you

Many thanks to leeroy gankin and veteran sorcerer for the great defense at green briar 12 hrs ago. That was a great battle between us ( 3 defenders) and SF + FC ( 10-15)
Be looking forwards to more action later after work.

Awesome job defending the garrison last night ET. Before I finally had to log for sleep, I believe we had defended 4 different wall breaches and some other minor attacks on the water gate, etc. At one point it looked like the whole western wall had been knocked down. Me and ’ole Bessie (a cannon) got about 30 loot bags in a pretty small amount of time. Sadly, they only contained about 6 badges.

A pretty sizeable SF force managed to get in at one point and we managed to repair the walls which blocked them in as we methodically pushed them back into a corner (literally) and wiped them one by one. All in all, pretty epic. SF, I know you had no place to retreat to but you sure did put up a nice fight against impossible odds. Fought to the last man.

Edit: and how I soooooooo wished a large group would have attacked Cliffside. It was very well prepared/upgraded to defend against a huge siege. It would have been a pretty nice “last stand” for us if it had come to it.

For all wondering, the Tier 8 needs attention thread was moved to the Suggestion forum under the lovely command of C.C. Eva. Thank you!

Elementalist Owner.7802:

IT’S STORY TIME! (Should be interesting for all of you. — It’s about SF coordination)

My buddy and I decided we wanted to ninja Hills in FC borderlands from ET. I threw two catas down at west outer wall, and we both ran supply to get them up. It was time-consuming, but we really wanted to ninja this place because it was upgraded and seiged well, thus serving to be a difficult place to cap with a zerg.

We then began hitting outer wall, which was reinforced. It went down after several minutes, and then we started hitting the inner wall as well. Now, all this time, we had been updating /t chat with wall percentages and such, and we had warned them that we would need a bunch of them to help us kill lord room. So we get the inner wall down and tell everybody that we need reinforcements to help us cap the lord room.

One person showed up.

It was many, many minutes before ET showed up and destroyed our catas, killing us and repairing the walls in the process. It was baffling, considering all of that time I had been essentially spamming /t chat with “Please come help us at west Hills outer wall, we have inner wall down and just need to cap the lord room”

So yes, we failed. I brushed it off and thought that perhaps nobody showed up because there wasn’t many on this map. But then, just a few minutes after, I went to the 6 o’clock camp and saw our zerg capping it. I thought, where were all of these guys when I needed them?!

That is the people of Sorrow’s Furnace for you. You give them a golden platter full of experience, karma, and a shiny new keep that could really help us out, and nobody cares. It was so uncoordinated that it looked like bots, seeing red or blue on the map and savagely rushing toward it without any type of strategy.

Even as an SF I could realize that the real winners of this match are ET and FC. This is not treachery, this is simply a call to action. We seriously need to improve our coordination.

I have personally thought this on several occasions, if we ever do move up out of T8 there could be some rude awakenings….Standing at the enemy spawn with a fully green map isn’t making us better WvW’ers, nor is running the breakout every chance it’s up (and us backcapping it 5 minutes later) making ET or the Fergs better.

Now there is no way to tell this of course, I mean we might figure out that T7 and T6 even are all about as evenly matched, but I kind of doubt that.

Our (SF) WvW noobs are all being trained to zerg. I only see the same core groups that do the real work behind the zerg or around the zerg. Only those core groups of players actually upgrade places, repair walls/gates, cap camps/allies. Sure the zerg caps camps/allies but usually only when a capable commander is in charge (and even then I have seen commander change direction suddenly, call out the change of objective and half the zerg keeps running the old direction. It is a group mentality that needs to be managed well to keep it from running wild with no direction besides “Unggghh, red/blue, kill/capture, kill more.” The zerg has its place for mass assaults but it does not win the match. It helps but the real work is in the trenches. (and really, those core groups of players spend some serious coinage to upgrade places. Especially if we want waypoints in he keeps.)

Shademehr.1397:

Awesome job defending the garrison last night ET. Before I finally had to log for sleep, I believe we had defended 4 different wall breaches and some other minor attacks on the water gate, etc. At one point it looked like the whole western wall had been knocked down. Me and ’ole Bessie (a cannon) got about 30 loot bags in a pretty small amount of time. Sadly, they only contained about 6 badges.

A pretty sizeable SF force managed to get in at one point and we managed to repair the walls which blocked them in as we methodically pushed them back into a corner (literally) and wiped them one by one. All in all, pretty epic. SF, I know you had no place to retreat to but you sure did put up a nice fight against impossible odds. Fought to the last man.

Edit: and how I soooooooo wished a large group would have attacked Cliffside. It was very well prepared/upgraded to defend against a huge siege. It would have been a pretty nice “last stand” for us if it had come to it.

I have to agree, all those ballista kept the unorganized folks in the zerg from charging in. I ran in and got to that catapult on the wall a few times while everyone else sat outside the wall breach and basically did nothing. When our commander finally got everyone to rush in together is when the real fun began.

I was one of those in that last stand in that cubby trying to get a cata built (supply runs to Astral are horrible with no wall/gate down). Took a few down with me, it was a great fight! Can’t wait to get off work again today and get back to having some WvW fun.

Elementalist Owner.7802:

IT’S STORY TIME! (Should be interesting for all of you. — It’s about SF coordination)

My buddy and I decided we wanted to ninja Hills in FC borderlands from ET. I threw two catas down at west outer wall, and we both ran supply to get them up. It was time-consuming, but we really wanted to ninja this place because it was upgraded and seiged well, thus serving to be a difficult place to cap with a zerg.

We then began hitting outer wall, which was reinforced. It went down after several minutes, and then we started hitting the inner wall as well. Now, all this time, we had been updating /t chat with wall percentages and such, and we had warned them that we would need a bunch of them to help us kill lord room. So we get the inner wall down and tell everybody that we need reinforcements to help us cap the lord room.

One person showed up.

It was many, many minutes before ET showed up and destroyed our catas, killing us and repairing the walls in the process. It was baffling, considering all of that time I had been essentially spamming /t chat with “Please come help us at west Hills outer wall, we have inner wall down and just need to cap the lord room”

So yes, we failed. I brushed it off and thought that perhaps nobody showed up because there wasn’t many on this map. But then, just a few minutes after, I went to the 6 o’clock camp and saw our zerg capping it. I thought, where were all of these guys when I needed them?!

That is the people of Sorrow’s Furnace for you. You give them a golden platter full of experience, karma, and a shiny new keep that could really help us out, and nobody cares. It was so uncoordinated that it looked like bots, seeing red or blue on the map and savagely rushing toward it without any type of strategy.

Even as an SF I could realize that the real winners of this match are ET and FC. This is not treachery, this is simply a call to action. We seriously need to improve our coordination.

Please share this on our server forums so we can work on making things better.

Darek.1836:

For all wondering, the Tier 8 needs attention thread was moved to the Suggestion forum under the lovely command of C.C. Eva. Thank you!

-shrug-

I hate to say it, but, 6 of one, half dozen of the other. They are not going to change the system, or the numbers. They said they were going to start fresh with the end of free-transfers and they backed out of that decision.

I mean if you look at the numbers, and the scores, the issue is not just T8, there are larger gaps in power between people within a tier then there are between some of the words in adjacent tiers.

The Glicko system is a sound system, if you handed it the profile of every player in this game, in a short time it would be able to match us all up in ways that the outcome would be anyone’s game.

The main issue might be, that we only have 24 worlds, with such small numbers, it’s pretty easy that we won’t have perfectly divisible matches. Some days, you end up with maybe 4 worlds that are close, or only 2 worlds that are close, and you are trying to make three team match ups, in the end, blowouts will happen.

Even if they manually adjusted worlds, what would they do different with T8 at this point?

They would pretty much need to cause a massive upheaval to discover again where everyone belonged (Which was what they were planning to do) and as it stands, the majority of the population that plays WvW does not want that, hence why they have not done it.

So we might as well make the best of our situation as it is right now. We don’t have a choice really.

If that best is to focus on PvE then, that is what it is, if that best is to go out and try harder and do more, then they is what it is, if the best thing for you is to just run around with a zerg ball when the running is good and try to glean what fun you can as you can, then great. If you feel that the best thing to do is move to another world, then that is what you need to do. It’s a game, and meant to be fun.

At this point, there is no wrong thing we can do as long as we try to have the most fun with what we are handed.

I’m going to make a somewhat different post than most of what I’ve seen on here. As a casual WvW Player on SF, I have to say “Way to go Eredon Terrace! Stomp that Ferg Zerg!”. It’s honestly very refreshing to see you guys fighting back more the past week or so and this weekend was a great fight! I enjoyed the challenge and it started feeling more like you guys woke up and FC went back to rolling over and dying. But like I said, “casual wvw player”, I’m not nearly as hardcore as some others on here.

Last night on FC BL you guys steamrolled our attack on the western keep by rolling over the camp behind our offensive and then destroying our assault. This highlights two things. Firstly, Sorrow’s Furnace players need to pay attention to chat and coordinate and respond to immediate threats….. Secondly, ET is gettin tactical! :P

As much as I’d love to move out of T8 and go have some fresh blood to spill, I’m very content with ET and FC stepping up a bit and giving our mindless zerg a thrashing. Just because we outnumber you, doesn’t mean you can’t still do a bit of tricky maneuvering and put us in our place.

SF’s ego is about as inflated as it’s score against FC and ET and we could all benefit from a more challenging fight.

yawg.4172:

I’m going to make a somewhat different post than most of what I’ve seen on here. As a casual WvW Player on SF, I have to say “Way to go Eredon Terrace! Stomp that Ferg Zerg!”. It’s honestly very refreshing to see you guys fighting back more the past week or so and this weekend was a great fight! I enjoyed the challenge and it started feeling more like you guys woke up and FC went back to rolling over and dying. But like I said, “casual wvw player”, I’m not nearly as hardcore as some others on here.

Last night on FC BL you guys steamrolled our attack on the western keep by rolling over the camp behind our offensive and then destroying our assault. This highlights two things. Firstly, Sorrow’s Furnace players need to pay attention to chat and coordinate and respond to immediate threats….. Secondly, ET is gettin tactical! :P

As much as I’d love to move out of T8 and go have some fresh blood to spill, I’m very content with ET and FC stepping up a bit and giving our mindless zerg a thrashing. Just because we outnumber you, doesn’t mean you can’t still do a bit of tricky maneuvering and put us in our place.

SF’s ego is about as inflated as it’s score against FC and ET and we could all benefit from a more challenging fight.

No offense but if you weren’t as casual you’d know that we had been doing that the past month, we’re just very tired of it at this point.

Elementalist Owner.7802:

IT’S STORY TIME! (Should be interesting for all of you. — It’s about SF coordination)

My buddy and I decided we wanted to ninja Hills in FC borderlands from ET. I threw two catas down at west outer wall, and we both ran supply to get them up. It was time-consuming, but we really wanted to ninja this place because it was upgraded and seiged well, thus serving to be a difficult place to cap with a zerg.

We then began hitting outer wall, which was reinforced. It went down after several minutes, and then we started hitting the inner wall as well. Now, all this time, we had been updating /t chat with wall percentages and such, and we had warned them that we would need a bunch of them to help us kill lord room. So we get the inner wall down and tell everybody that we need reinforcements to help us cap the lord room.

One person showed up.

It was many, many minutes before ET showed up and destroyed our catas, killing us and repairing the walls in the process. It was baffling, considering all of that time I had been essentially spamming /t chat with “Please come help us at west Hills outer wall, we have inner wall down and just need to cap the lord room”

So yes, we failed. I brushed it off and thought that perhaps nobody showed up because there wasn’t many on this map. But then, just a few minutes after, I went to the 6 o’clock camp and saw our zerg capping it. I thought, where were all of these guys when I needed them?!

That is the people of Sorrow’s Furnace for you. You give them a golden platter full of experience, karma, and a shiny new keep that could really help us out, and nobody cares. It was so uncoordinated that it looked like bots, seeing red or blue on the map and savagely rushing toward it without any type of strategy.

Even as an SF I could realize that the real winners of this match are ET and FC. This is not treachery, this is simply a call to action. We seriously need to improve our coordination.

I had a practically typed up a booklet in response to this, but unfortunately lost it somehow between copy pastes when I got the message about exceeding 5001 characters. I’ll try again, and try to keep things more brief this time. Anyways, if you’re looking to improve your server’s WvW competency the best places to start first are probably:

1) Build relationships. Unfortunately, people rarely listen to you when they haven’t first built up a respect for you. That applies on all levels, individual, guild or entire server-wide. To build respect, you must build relationships. (Ie. good communication and becoming friends.) Apply this as much on the individual relationship level as well as the group one. Major guilds that have disagreements/arguments/constant bickering and mocking/bashing in map chat should apologize to each other, put the past behind them and agree to work together for the better of the server. Continue to aggressively pursue WvW-strengthening utilities such as multiple-guild alliances and joint multi-guild voice chat channels, promote information sharing and co-operative attack and defense both in strategy and in practical application. On the individual level, just keep talking with people, keep things positive, and always keep your eyes on the goals you or your server community set in place. Often times, its the small things that make a difference. Do your best to inspire/and teach those individuals in WvW who haven’t yet grasped the basics, don’t give up on them and hopefully they in turn won’t give up on you.

2) Resist the urge to slander, call-out and bash on ALL FRONTS in WvW. Be you the commander trying to convince your zerg that the ram rush they so instinctively desire is simply not gonna work when your enemy has 5+ unreachable superior arrow carts, full supply and a formidable amount of defenders in a tower, or having more personal disagreements with someone, or as a member of the zerg following your commander. The moment things like: “XYZ ruined this”, “You guys are idiots. Don’t listen to the commander at all, don’t understand basic tactics, don’t listen on any level. What a waste.”, “Everybody call XYZ player an ***hole because he grabbed supply from the camp we wanted to upgrade to double supply!” is almost always the precursor to every single good attack or defense effort failing due to getting lost in a needless crap storm.

3) SUPPORT YOUR COMMANDERS. Leading is not an easy thing. And granted, there are some out there who just buy the tag to play popularity contest. But when your commanders are actually trying (And you will usually be able to tell this quite easily) to make a difference for your server and positively influence the flow of its scores/battles, try not to mock, flame and belittle them on map chat when an attack they were leading fails once, multiple times or in any such situation really. Support them, encourage them and help them to become the leader they are trying to be, because it really isn’t easy. Too often someone will barrage map chat with a comment like this: “All the commanders here are so incompetent, if it were me or XYZ guy I know leading our position would be far better, too bad we can’t afford a commander tag!”. These messages really do no good for anyone, and don’t even invoke any sympathy for the one dropping the message. Being a leader, even in an online game is often times a costly (Most active commanders LOSE money in WvW due to purchasing more siege/producing superior siege than standard players), time demanding, and almost always emotionally stressful.

ANYONE who arrogantly or pretentiously takes leading lightly and thinks to themselves “Hey how hard can it be to lead a couple of people, lol?” should try playing The Walking Dead video game(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Walking_Dead_%282012_video_game%29). That game accurately reflects the tough reality that when leading, you make both friends and enemies even when you try to do the right thing. The situations here in may not be as extreme as that, but the fact is leaders and commanders WILL have to make decisions that may please some of their fellow server mates, but WILL also make them enemies/cause receiving of mocking, map chat and private chat harassment from others. Sometimes you can be hated for doing the right thing, and the majority isn’t always right either, and vice versa. Making calls on behalf of your server is no easy task, so people should do their best not to be drama queens or mockers and make things any more difficult for those making major decisions in WvW. Always remember coupled with this, you win some and you lose some. Sometimes you win a lot consecutively and sometimes you lose a lot consecutively, and that isn’t always the fault of the commander/commanders contrary to popular belief.

4) Encourage good sportsmanship. Let’s be honest, for all server communities, it doesn’t matter if you’re Sorrow’s Furnace, Eredon’s Terrace, Ferguson’s Crossing or any server in any other tier; The very same people who t-bag, dance and laugh on your opponent’s corpses are far too often the exact same individuals who bail out on you when you’re outnumbered or outplayed and desperately need all the manpower you can get. There’s no point defending these people, because let’s be honest, they won’t defend you when it matters. All server communities that desire a higher level of play should actively discourage such behavior. Doing these things is poor sportsmanship. We all know it takes a hell of a lot of good sportsmanship to survive multiple losses to a server/servers one-sidedly dominating in WvW, and let’s be honest if your not already in tier 1 level chances are you will experience that at some point in your WvW time. Encouraging good sportsmanship goes hand in hand with encouraging people to tough it out when the times are rough, so from the perspective of the sheer net benefit it should be carried out. Note that not everyone doing such things are “bad apples” though. Sometimes people do these things just because they witnessed others and thought it was the norm, as strange as that can sound. Privately message them, and explain to them why mocking your opponents(and/or teammates if that should somehow come to pass though I’ve never seen one of my allies t-bag a friendly corpse) is poor sportsmanship and unproductive to healthy WvW behavior. You might just successfully convert someone from being a corpse sitter/dance to someone who bows in the face of adversity and simply shrugs it off when a 10 person gank squad kills them off and attempts to humiliate them with laugh spam. Such people can stick it out through some of the toughest of situations in WvW, and individuals with that mentality/dedication are useful for any server.

5) Have fun. WvW shouldn’t feel like a job. Even the most hardcore players need breaks sometimes, so we should all cut the commanders/major guilds some slack when they take some time off from WvW.

Elementalist Owner.7802:

IT’S STORY TIME! (Should be interesting for all of you. — It’s about SF coordination)

My buddy and I decided we wanted to ninja Hills in FC borderlands from ET. I threw two catas down at west outer wall, and we both ran supply to get them up. It was time-consuming, but we really wanted to ninja this place because it was upgraded and seiged well, thus serving to be a difficult place to cap with a zerg.

We then began hitting outer wall, which was reinforced. It went down after several minutes, and then we started hitting the inner wall as well. Now, all this time, we had been updating /t chat with wall percentages and such, and we had warned them that we would need a bunch of them to help us kill lord room. So we get the inner wall down and tell everybody that we need reinforcements to help us cap the lord room.

One person showed up.

It was many, many minutes before ET showed up and destroyed our catas, killing us and repairing the walls in the process. It was baffling, considering all of that time I had been essentially spamming /t chat with “Please come help us at west Hills outer wall, we have inner wall down and just need to cap the lord room”

So yes, we failed. I brushed it off and thought that perhaps nobody showed up because there wasn’t many on this map. But then, just a few minutes after, I went to the 6 o’clock camp and saw our zerg capping it. I thought, where were all of these guys when I needed them?!

That is the people of Sorrow’s Furnace for you. You give them a golden platter full of experience, karma, and a shiny new keep that could really help us out, and nobody cares. It was so uncoordinated that it looked like bots, seeing red or blue on the map and savagely rushing toward it without any type of strategy.

Even as an SF I could realize that the real winners of this match are ET and FC. This is not treachery, this is simply a call to action. We seriously need to improve our coordination.

I love when we are trying take points and calls constantly go out for people to run supply and there is like 3-4 people running (and one of them is a good commander) and 20 people auto-attacking a gate-and sometimes a wall.

6) As a final add-on: TROLL POLICY. Simply put, don’t feed the trolls. There are gonna be people who bash commanders, players, guilds, servers, thread creators for the simple purpose of seeking to incite strife, frustration and anger for their own personal entertainment. At times they may even go so far as to construct huge comprehensive multi-paragraph posts backing a mentality or way of thinking that they may not even subscribe to personally, simply to incite a hasty negative/inflammatory response from their target/victim. Excessive socratic questioning and ad hominem use can sometimes hint to such people’s true intentions. Best thing you can do is, ignore them or taking it even further, be humble. When someone is constantly spamming “Wow, you’re terrible.” on map chat or whatever, a response like “You’re right, I definitely have a lot of room for improvement” can often times diffuse things before they spark. And keep in mind, 90% of trolls be they forum trolls, in-game server community trolls, or what have you lack the long-term dedication to haunt a community for more than a couple of days consecutively when nobody takes their bait. A few back to back days of nobody getting upset from their comments will often cause trolls to opt out and self-destruct.

Darek.1836:

No offense but if you weren’t as casual you’d know that we had been doing that the past month, we’re just very tired of it at this point.

What rolling over and dying? Because that’s been apparent even to the members of my guild who don’t WvW at all. I’m not trying to bash on you guys whatsoever and I can very much sympathize with you, I’m tired of having the same fight, I’m tired of barely seeing any enemy invaders except in “huge” zegballs. Huge being relative because let’s face it, our tier has nothing huge except everyone’s imaginary genitalia. Other WvW tiers, 20-30 people is small to medium sized zerg.

Detharos.3157:

6) As a final add-on: TROLL POLICY. Simply put, don’t feed the trolls. There are gonna be people who bash commanders, players, guilds, servers, thread creators for the simple purpose of seeking to incite strife, frustration and anger for their own personal entertainment. At times they may even go so far as to construct huge comprehensive multi-paragraph posts backing a mentality or way of thinking that they may not even subscribe to personally, simply to incite a hasty negative/inflammatory response from their target/victim. Excessive socratic questioning and ad hominem use can sometimes hint to such people’s true intentions. Best thing you can do is, ignore them or taking it even further, be humble. When someone is constantly spamming “Wow, you’re terrible.” on map chat or whatever, a response like “You’re right, I definitely have a lot of room for improvement” can often times diffuse things before they spark. And keep in mind, 90% of trolls be they forum trolls, in-game server community trolls, or what have you lack the long-term dedication to haunt a community for more than a couple of days consecutively when nobody takes their bait. A few back to back days of nobody getting upset from their comments will often cause trolls to opt out and self-destruct.

Detharos, I have to agree with you on every point you made and ESPECIALLY this and the good sportmanship one. We need to iron out the in-fighting before we can move forward and the in-fighting really hurts everyone playing.

Detharos.3157:

5) Have fun. WvW shouldn’t feel like a job. Even the most hardcore players need breaks sometimes, so we should all cut the commanders/major guilds some slack when they take some time off from WvW.

this is the single most important point, and the reason i tend not to turn on my commander tag. the majority of the time, it becomes unfun because i just dont like the stress and expectations.

insanemaniac.2456:

Detharos.3157:

5) Have fun. WvW shouldn’t feel like a job. Even the most hardcore players need breaks sometimes, so we should all cut the commanders/major guilds some slack when they take some time off from WvW.

this is the single most important point, and the reason i tend not to turn on my commander tag. the majority of the time, it becomes unfun because i just dont like the stress and expectations.

I find myself doing this more often lately also, the tag itself is full of burdens. And often times, its a coordinated group of just 4 people ninja’ing walls and gates that can drastically shift the tide of a server’s battles. Not that the zerg isn’t great or of infinite value all its own, but 30 + zergs and 4-man saboteur/covert-op/camp skirmisher teams are like hammers and wrenches. They both have their place of importance in the scheme of things.

But for me, lately I find a small group is just so much more mobile, harder for the enemy to scout/read with more easily maintained morale levels and generally consistent levels of competency, and is thus to me preferable at this time than leading zergs.

Also, taking several breaks the past week from leading/co-leading major strikes has relieved a lot of WvW stress. I still think the rating system is horribly broken, but even if ArenaNet takes no action there should be some way to level the playing field, be it the dedicated WvW communities of FC and ET merging into one of the servers, transfers to elsewhere, finding some magical group of large PvE guilds I never knew existed and convincing them to help out, or waiting on the natural growth of the server from new players creating characters here to balance out numbers more. Something has gotta go right, sooner or later.

The only worry I have at this moment is whether or not we’ve lost too many players/guilds during this phase to maintain a fight at the level we did during the first two weeks of Sorrow’s Furnace presence in our tier. If we have a showing again like that when SF finally does move up, we might just find ourselves in a healthy balanced match-up considering the score history between pre-week 3 Sorrow’s Furnace and HoD.

I’ve only had the game a short time, only lvl 55 on SF but since we’re kind of talking about getting better as a server let me just post my thoughts after playing WvW for about 3 days(haven’t played pve since):

Communication: Stepping into our BL for the first time was a little overwhelming. No one was talking at all, I had no idea where to go or what do do. I had to google a bunch of WvW guides to get the basics down. I’ve seen other servers talk about using a server based TS so everyone could communicate. Does SF have this as well?

Another thing I’ve seen is a lot of players will see an enemy group or get rolled by one, but don’t call out any troop numbers or location.

Tactics: We don’t seem to employ specific strategies, mostly I see us just build one or two siege and zerg the gate until it pops or we get pushed out. Now I’m assuming a lot of that has to do with the fact that A) I haven’t played with a Guild yet and it works almost everytime due to overwhelming numbers and I don’t mean to troll or anyting but a lot of the defenders have been pushovers.

I’d love to group up with some more experienced SF on teamspeak so I could learn a bit more. I’ve had equal fun rolling with the zerg as well as roaming/taking SCs. I don’t require a guild inviteor anything, but it would be fun to be a part of some more organized teams.

All in all its hard for me to complain since I haven’t really had experience with a guild and I’ve only played it a few days. Hit me up in game or a PM if you wouldn’t mind me running with you.

There are some options for VC in game but that info shouldn’t be posted in the forums. There are a lot of people that will call out troop movements and we are always looking for people to participate more in this practice. Other communication tips are to jump to other maps to call for help, Call way point timers for Keeps under siege, and if there are white swords at location head there and inform teammates or ask if anyone has eyes there so we can decide if it is a credible threat.

We do have specific tactics but it is hard to notice cause they are usually smaller groups that run around and capture and defend supply camps or attack to throw enemy off. Unfortunately these players don’t receive as much in the way of rewards as groups that take keeps and towers, so you see less than you should.

Linkisdead.9647:

I’ve only had the game a short time, only lvl 55 on SF but since we’re kind of talking about getting better as a server let me just post my thoughts after playing WvW for about 3 days(haven’t played pve since):

Communication: Stepping into our BL for the first time was a little overwhelming. No one was talking at all, I had no idea where to go or what do do. I had to google a bunch of WvW guides to get the basics down. I’ve seen other servers talk about using a server based TS so everyone could communicate. Does SF have this as well?

Another thing I’ve seen is a lot of players will see an enemy group or get rolled by one, but don’t call out any troop numbers or location.

Tactics: We don’t seem to employ specific strategies, mostly I see us just build one or two siege and zerg the gate until it pops or we get pushed out. Now I’m assuming a lot of that has to do with the fact that A) I haven’t played with a Guild yet and it works almost everytime due to overwhelming numbers and I don’t mean to troll or anyting but a lot of the defenders have been pushovers.

I’d love to group up with some more experienced SF on teamspeak so I could learn a bit more. I’ve had equal fun rolling with the zerg as well as roaming/taking SCs. I don’t require a guild inviteor anything, but it would be fun to be a part of some more organized teams.

All in all its hard for me to complain since I haven’t really had experience with a guild and I’ve only played it a few days. Hit me up in game or a PM if you wouldn’t mind me running with you.

SF does have a mumble server and I routinely offer up my Teamspeak/Vent/Mumble server for events (I seriously got kitten off and tired of people going “X VoIP is good, but I only use Y so… sorry”). I have tried and tried and tried over and over again to encourage people on our server to use VC but it doesn’t work, I’ve managed to get 2-3 people on the SF mumble before but that’s about it, nothing that could help our server-wide coordination whatsoever. I’ve been laughed at and talked down to because no one wants to take 5 minutes to install a client and hop on a server to effectively communicate and this more than anything has killed my efforts in trying to help coordinate our server, when I’m trying to be helpful and post suggestions to get people together just to have people throw it in my face and spit on it…. It’s frustrating and is hard to not take personally. A few weeks ago I tried to organize a server-wide meet up on mumble and that flopped horribly, only 3-4 people showed up.

I would LOVE to have a VoIP server that everyone in SF logs into for WvW and coordinates, even if it’s a group of people that use it routinely for coordinating will help gather people and further generate interest/awareness to it’s existence. Ideally a person with no experience or friends in WvW would be able to get the VoIP info, connect and be able to listen in on what to do, what’s going on when and where, etc. But as it stands now, we barely have that in /map/team/say, so I don’t see how having everyone on a VoIP server is going to help if this continues.

Send me an invite yawg, I’ll hop on in a heartbeat. Map chat is ok enough for me to know where I should be, but I’d love to be able to start using comms more.

Filthy,

Those are all good suggestions, I do pretty much all of those except for going to other BL to ask for help which is a good idea.

I think a lot of my problem is a lack of networking.

FilthyRat.4652:

Unfortunately these players don’t receive as much in the way of rewards as groups that take keeps and towers, so you see less than you should.

You’d be surprised, actually.

When I’m running back-line stuff while the zerg hits a keep, I usually have enough to take 6 or 7 minor objectives till I get a call that we have enough momentum to link back up with the zerg.

In those pushes, I’m getting the same keep capture credit that the zerg gets on top of all the XP and badges that come as part of the territory for small group objectives.

Another good thing is when you see that we have mesmers in jp doing ports, is to bring all your toons there. One person that has five toons can get 10 siege for our side every day and multiply that by the hundreds we get up there every day is just a huge boost for our server.

Another thing is use of supply and strategic upgrades…to many times players will order upgrades when supply camps can’t be held from the enemies and just causes towers and Keeps to be much harder to defend. Defending SM and seeing people just repair a wall until you are left with a few hundred supply (while being trebbed) is the most frustrating thing for me. The supply needs to be saved for inner defense while the treb is still up and once the danger is removed then work on outer wall….this is only if there is no plan to take treb out or we are outnumbered and cant counter.

The second thread in red at the top of the wvw list is a real good guide to help people that may have questions, and they also have some good links inside the thread also.

See these are some things you don’t learn from guides.

I’ve never tried the JP as its a JP which just sounds awful to begin with and all you hear about it is people getting ganked there.

I’ve read all of those guides which are a fantastic intro, but they don’t delve quite as deep into the details like your previous post about SM defense.

It’s a great intro, but in order to learn more I think you have to get in a decent WvW guild.

We have a good port system in place on most nights to get people in and out of the jp really fast and to get them back on the field.

Guides, will not teach you to be better.

Being on the battlefield gaining the experience of everything teaches you everything and betters you as a player.

Instead of reading guides, teach yourself out in the open, learn from past experiences and most of all, come closer together as a server.

A guide will never accomplish such things.

roostapro.9827:

Guides, will not teach you to be better.

Being on the battlefield gaining the experience of everything teaches you everything and betters you as a player.

Instead of reading guides, teach yourself out in the open, learn from past experiences and most of all, come closer together as a server.

A guide will never accomplish such things.

The guides are just to teach the people the basics of WvW and gives them a breakdown of the system and supply routes.

@ Detharos

That was amazing. I mean that, and I personally feel that you really homed in on the spirit of World vs World, when dealing with it on a personal level. And I want to say that I feel that what you have written deserves more then to be a post on page 2 of a spat fight between bottom tier worlds.

I hope you finish off what you started, and put it up under it’s own topic, and we can hope that it becomes a sticky.

Personally for me, their were three major points you hit home with me.

Point 6: Trolls. I personally have one of those personality that I let people quickly get under my skin which makes me an easy target for trolls, and normally they can bait me along for much longer then I should let them, and someone will send me a /tell /whisper informing me that I am getting played by a troll. Typically at this point, I’ll re-read what transpired, and realize I had been duped and played by a troller, and then quickly /squelch them, honestly, I fall for trolls all the time, which is a bad personalty flaw on my part, no doubt, So, when I hit a troll in game, I use /squelch and move on because dealing with them is draining and pulls from playing the game.

Since you mentioned forums as well, I have to agree, these forums would benefit from a squlech/ingore option, like the game has. I think it would be a good feature overall.

Point 3 was a huge one for me as well. It is no doubt that people like the feeling of being in command, in charge, having power and authority, at the same time, it seems very few want to accept responsibility or accountability, and that Commander tag tends to drop both on the person, and we all know, when things go wrong, people start to point fingers, looking for someone to blame, and that commander tag is a prime target. In that front, my fault has been not standing up for the commanders, I realize I should not coddle them, but at the same time I should not stand idly by while they get ripped on either, and I have in most cases just remained quiet, but I should speak up, they take a huge burden, a greater burden the most.

I mean it’s a cliche of how many people try to deny they were speeding when the cop pulls them over, but a Commander is the guy who looks the cop in the eye and says “Yup, That was me doing 65 in the 30” while that maybe why we crashed into the tree, the kids screaming the back seat throwing a hissy fit were a part of it too, ya know.

So yah. Good point, and I will try to do more in that regard in the future.

5 – play for fun. This tends to be the hardest part of it, a lot of wvw fun it taken away when you are always facing against larger forces, and while in those times, I try to fsall back on the thrill of the kill, it’s still discouraging that at the end of the day, all you did was undone before you even log off.

I guess this is the hardest hurdle to jump.

None the less, Detharos, you put up an amazing post, and it really should be seen by more then just us. Such is my humble feelings on the matter.

Detharos.3157:

6) As a final add-on: TROLL POLICY. Simply put, don’t feed the trolls. There are gonna be people who bash commanders, players, guilds, servers, thread creators for the simple purpose of seeking to incite strife, frustration and anger for their own personal entertainment. At times they may even go so far as to construct huge comprehensive multi-paragraph posts backing a mentality or way of thinking that they may not even subscribe to personally, simply to incite a hasty negative/inflammatory response from their target/victim. Excessive socratic questioning and ad hominem use can sometimes hint to such people’s true intentions. Best thing you can do is, ignore them or taking it even further, be humble. When someone is constantly spamming “Wow, you’re terrible.” on map chat or whatever, a response like “You’re right, I definitely have a lot of room for improvement” can often times diffuse things before they spark. And keep in mind, 90% of trolls be they forum trolls, in-game server community trolls, or what have you lack the long-term dedication to haunt a community for more than a couple of days consecutively when nobody takes their bait. A few back to back days of nobody getting upset from their comments will often cause trolls to opt out and self-destruct.

Just way too many out there on all sides…Our server has it’s spats and just want to thank them all for keeping the trash talking of commanders to a minimum.

Got nice and comfy with the COSA crew for a while this morning. Persistent bunch.

Linkisdead.9647:

Communication: Stepping into our BL for the first time was a little overwhelming. No one was talking at all, I had no idea where to go or what do do….Another thing I’ve seen is a lot of players will see an enemy group or get rolled by one, but don’t call out any troop numbers or location.

I talk so much I figure at some point everyone is going to tell me to STFU in map chat. I’m always calling out stuff. “White swords at Gods”. “Orange swords at Cliff”. “2 FC just ran towards Arah”. “Zerg of 25 heading towards you Commander!”. “60 SF heading your way guys, GET IN TEH GARRISON!!!11!11on”.

I’m a hardcore gamer but my skill with GW2 is really only average (at best) so I try to find other ways to stay useful. Calling out stuff when I see it and doing some of the more “mundane” things like renewing siege, taking out sentry’s and veterans, yakstomping, teaming up with another 1 or 2 to grab an undefended camp, etc. One on one? I’ll probably go down every time; I just had to find my niche. (I’m improving though!)

Linkisdead.9647:

Tactics: We don’t seem to employ specific strategies, mostly I see us just build one or two siege and zerg the gate until it pops or we get pushed out. Now I’m assuming a lot of that has to do with the fact that A) I haven’t played with a Guild yet and it works almost everytime due to overwhelming numbers and I don’t mean to troll or anyting but a lot of the defenders have been pushovers.

I saw some fantastic stuff going down yesterday in ET. I could barely pry myself away from WvW to get some sleep. We had some great Commanders on the field and even a brand new one that is already making a nice impact. (You know who you are! Awesome job at Cliffside! )

Linkisdead.9647:

I’d love to group up with some more experienced SF on teamspeak so I could learn a bit more. I’ve had equal fun rolling with the zerg as well as roaming/taking SCs. I don’t require a guild invite or anything, but it would be fun to be a part of some more organized teams.

This helps a TON. I’ve been really fortunate to be allowed to hang with a pretty groovy guild while still being able to keep my own guild allegiance. They’re a fun bunch and really know how to get the job done. (Thanks guys and gals!) I am also able to join them on Vent so that’s really helpful too. Occasionally, they’ll also have “training sessions” where they talk about siege placement, tactics, etc.

Welcome to WvWvW! I think you’re on the right track and I look forward to you killing me on the field.

Linkisdead.9647:

Communication: Stepping into our BL for the first time was a little overwhelming. No one was talking at all, I had no idea where to go or what do do. I had to google a bunch of WvW guides to get the basics down. I’ve seen other servers talk about using a server based TS so everyone could communicate. Does SF have this as well?

There are some on SF who use voice chat software, but it seems to me that the majority of our communication does tend to be in map chat (since not everyone uses voice chat). If you enter a WvW zone and the map chat is silent, try checking the other maps. A silent map chat usually means most of the action is on another map.

Anyone who knows me or has spent even a little time in ET knows I AM NOT QUIET. The one major thing I have seen in all the servers I have been on is lack of proper communication from commanders. This goes from tier 1 to tier 8 and at least 4 other tiers i’ve seen in between.

People get blinders on in WvW, in this game especially. Few actually look at map chat or pay attention to it when red names are anywhere in the vicinity. Few people are on voice chat, even if the server has a TS channel set up.

This is partly Anet’s fault. I have said since beta they needed in game voice chat for squads. That would have improved this game’s PvP 10 fold and many more players would be out in the borderlands.

Commanders if you don’t think you have the time to spell it all out, you do. Now in the upper tiers not so much, but you designate a guildie to do it for you. However, down here in the lower tiers you have to map chat it and say chat it. You have to be up front, leading, so the troops can see what to do and when to do it.

You also need to make good decisions, if you are on the less populated servers, since the margin for error is so slim. Yes, people will end up putting on ignore. Yes, people will call you out in chat. People will not always follow commands either. That is part of the job.

That begs: what do people like? They like to get exp and they like to win. These wins don’t have to be super huge battles. Get some wins going, paint your map a bit and they will come.

Now Lets forget the obvious numbers issues with the non winning servers for a moment and talk about command issues on the servers:

SF: Has it’s problems due to server transfers and the quality of those transfers. It brought the whole tactical playing field of your server down tremendously. Zergles for the loss. You all should not lose a good portion of the battles you end up losing.

FC: I really don’t like to say this, but did a lot of your commanders leave or take a break? There doesn’t appear to be much cohesion at all, except for once in a great while.

ET: We are too busy bickering with each other. Certain commanders/guilds dont get along and I’ve been a part of that to some extent. Some times we click just right; other times there is just too much fighting. THat holds us back tremendously.

Anyway, that’s my take on it.

wyther.8372:

FC: I really don’t like to say this, but did a lot of your commanders leave or take a break? There doesn’t appear to be much cohesion at all, except for once in a great while.

I would say that’s pretty close to the reality of the situation over in FC. Ferg is, in my opinion, pretty much scraping the bottom of the barrel for moral. Peak time last night there was barely anybody running around in our BL, let alone commanders. I think it bottomed out when we had ET running up one side of our BL and SF on the other and we didn’t have enough bodies to really put a stake in either zerg. Lot of ‘kitten it, I quit’, in that few hours.