Guild Wars 2

Voilodion.3791:

If 40 vs 20 vs 20 is really what you want, take a server transfer to T8. We have exactly that (especially this past week), and it does periodically include coordinated attacks on multiple targets, locking down waypoints before major assaults, and so forth.

This.

I play on T8, and it sounds like what a lot of you are looking for.

Normal size groups range from 15 – 30, at max, and that feels rather massive to us. To even see 50 on any team is amazing.

The numbers do go down as you go down the tiers. And you’re right, I have not seen the Zergs of T1, but then again, the Zergs of T8 sound like what you want to be a part of.

So as opposed to asking Anet to mess over the system, consider moving to a tier that has what you are looking for in WvW.

unlike what OP had said, zerging is actually an dvanced tactic that didn’t really take place till WWII. In fact, it wasn’t even considered a legit tactic till the communist tactician Mao Tse Tung came to recognize it in the 40s.

In one of his early theorems on mobile warfare, he outlined the following principle:
avoid enemy concentration, lure it deep into my territory, concentrate superior forces, destroy it piece by piece.
Mao specifically defined “absolute superior force” as “6X, 5X or at least 4X the emey”. In practice, he used 10X the forces to encircle and destroy KMT’s elite 74th division during Chinese civilwar (led by this man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Lingfu).
What he proved was that you could ignore quality when having absolute superior number, and this is why we zerg, to achieve “quick and decisive” victories.

BL maps would had required some modifications to the principle to function, but it’s rather easy to see why EB is for zerging. Basically, it takes no more than 1/3 of a tick to get to any specific spot on EB, from any specific starting location. That means a big zerg can cover the entire map, as long as it can neutralize any obstacles swiftly.

There are only 2 general conditions in EB — have SM, or not have it.
When SM is in your hands, you can run radiant routes from SM and get to any target location in under 2 minutes.
When you don’t have SM, you can go from your keep to the end of either route (there are only 2 for each server, connecting keeps) in under 3 minutes, giving you time to cover both.
There’s even buffs on guild claims now to ensure all points CAN be covered by one single zerg, even if the zerg was moving slower than ideal.

Of course, it takes more than just the zerg for a zerg to function. There need to be scouts, and counterspys. Supplies need to be moved, sieges need to be built, and there are people that like doing those things, they put more roaming videos on youtube everyday.
For the majority though, zerging is the game, and only when the zergs on all sides are of maximum size that other tactics and strategies start to come into play. If one side had a 100 men zerg and other sides didn’t, then there is no game, it’s PVdoor.

Valid points; though point remains… it shouldn’t be a PVdoor game! GW2’s too awesome for that..

This is a conversation between A and B: C you later.

Again; this is to remind to you that this topic aims to address the general direction of which ANet would like to take GW2. Not just concrete solutions.

Convenant.7092:

Again; this is to remind to you that this topic aims to address the general direction of which ANet would like to take GW2. Not just concrete solutions.

They already said they view WvW as large forces fighting, not small scale teams.

What really needs to change?

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Convenant.7092:

Again; this is to remind to you that this topic aims to address the general direction of which ANet would like to take GW2. Not just concrete solutions.

They already said they view WvW as large forces fighting, not small scale teams.

What really needs to change?

I don’t think they ever meant this to be 100 people balling up into a 300 range radius. At least not according to their server capacity; the lag we’ve been getting.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Gates should absolutely go down quick to a zerg if you are not there to defend.

No one to not enought to use siege on the rams is your sides fault.

You can say this but the end result is going to be mindless zergs following each other around the map capping each other in rotation because there simply aren’t enough players willing to sit in a tower waiting for an attack to arrive, getting no rewards while everyone else is speeding towards realm rank 100 and getting a ton of loot in the circular zerg.

People WILL rush to the defense of a tower that’s under attack but when zergs break through reinforced doors in under 60 seconds, there’s no time.

“Small group play” in context of WvW really means “PvDoor”. Either there’s enough time for defense to show up or you are just avoiding PvP.

Slamz.5376:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Gates should absolutely go down quick to a zerg if you are not there to defend.

No one to not enought to use siege on the rams is your sides fault.

You can say this but the end result is going to be mindless zergs following each other around the map capping each other in rotation because there simply aren’t enough players willing to sit in a tower waiting for an attack to arrive, getting no rewards while everyone else is speeding towards realm rank 100 and getting a ton of loot in the circular zerg.

People WILL rush to the defense of a tower that’s under attack but when zergs break through reinforced doors in under 60 seconds, there’s no time.

“Small group play” in context of WvW really means “PvDoor”. Either there’s enough time for defense to show up or you are just avoiding PvP.

If you people are not setting up scouts to defend a target, it is your fault.

We had perm scouts in SoR hills all weekend and I don’t think it flipped more than once.

Your server organization is the problem. You need to set up a schedule and have everyone rotate through that assignment. If your server doesn’t care to do that, your server doesn’t want to win.

This isn’t a ANet needs to fix problem, this is a player mentality problem.

If you want to argue that there should be rewards for scouting, yea, I can agree with that. That job is a bore and not very profitable but that is a different matter.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Slamz.5376:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Gates should absolutely go down quick to a zerg if you are not there to defend.

No one to not enought to use siege on the rams is your sides fault.

You can say this but the end result is going to be mindless zergs following each other around the map capping each other in rotation because there simply aren’t enough players willing to sit in a tower waiting for an attack to arrive, getting no rewards while everyone else is speeding towards realm rank 100 and getting a ton of loot in the circular zerg.

People WILL rush to the defense of a tower that’s under attack but when zergs break through reinforced doors in under 60 seconds, there’s no time.

“Small group play” in context of WvW really means “PvDoor”. Either there’s enough time for defense to show up or you are just avoiding PvP.

If you people are not setting up scouts to defend a target, it is your fault.

We had perm scouts in SoR hills all weekend and I don’t think it flipped more than once.

Your server organization is the problem. You need to set up a schedule and have everyone rotate through that assignment. If your server doesn’t care to do that, your server doesn’t want to win.

This isn’t a ANet needs to fix problem, this is a player mentality problem.

If you want to argue that there should be rewards for scouting, yea, I can agree with that. That job is a bore and not very profitable but that is a different matter.

Again.. you’re missing the point.

Convenant.7092:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Slamz.5376:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Gates should absolutely go down quick to a zerg if you are not there to defend.

No one to not enought to use siege on the rams is your sides fault.

You can say this but the end result is going to be mindless zergs following each other around the map capping each other in rotation because there simply aren’t enough players willing to sit in a tower waiting for an attack to arrive, getting no rewards while everyone else is speeding towards realm rank 100 and getting a ton of loot in the circular zerg.

People WILL rush to the defense of a tower that’s under attack but when zergs break through reinforced doors in under 60 seconds, there’s no time.

“Small group play” in context of WvW really means “PvDoor”. Either there’s enough time for defense to show up or you are just avoiding PvP.

If you people are not setting up scouts to defend a target, it is your fault.

We had perm scouts in SoR hills all weekend and I don’t think it flipped more than once.

Your server organization is the problem. You need to set up a schedule and have everyone rotate through that assignment. If your server doesn’t care to do that, your server doesn’t want to win.

This isn’t a ANet needs to fix problem, this is a player mentality problem.

If you want to argue that there should be rewards for scouting, yea, I can agree with that. That job is a bore and not very profitable but that is a different matter.

Again.. you’re missing the point.

Your point is you don’t like zergs.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Convenant.7092:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Slamz.5376:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Gates should absolutely go down quick to a zerg if you are not there to defend.

No one to not enought to use siege on the rams is your sides fault.

You can say this but the end result is going to be mindless zergs following each other around the map capping each other in rotation because there simply aren’t enough players willing to sit in a tower waiting for an attack to arrive, getting no rewards while everyone else is speeding towards realm rank 100 and getting a ton of loot in the circular zerg.

People WILL rush to the defense of a tower that’s under attack but when zergs break through reinforced doors in under 60 seconds, there’s no time.

“Small group play” in context of WvW really means “PvDoor”. Either there’s enough time for defense to show up or you are just avoiding PvP.

If you people are not setting up scouts to defend a target, it is your fault.

We had perm scouts in SoR hills all weekend and I don’t think it flipped more than once.

Your server organization is the problem. You need to set up a schedule and have everyone rotate through that assignment. If your server doesn’t care to do that, your server doesn’t want to win.

This isn’t a ANet needs to fix problem, this is a player mentality problem.

If you want to argue that there should be rewards for scouting, yea, I can agree with that. That job is a bore and not very profitable but that is a different matter.

Again.. you’re missing the point.

Your point is you don’t like zergs.

No.. read the topic..

Convenant.7092:

No.. read the topic..

I did and now you are insulting my intelligence.

Shall I start on yours?

You cannot deny that you do not like zergs and if you try you are a liar. The OP reeks of it, hence the format you choose.

Try again.

I never really understand these threads. They make me wonder if T2 is the only tier that has both zergs and small groups. Generally, my guild runs both a zerg groups and numerous small groups(disruption – for taking camps and defense groups.)

Why can’t there be both? Sometimes there is a zerg of 60 but usually less. The other small groups run around and take smaller objectives and defend camps/towers. These groups sometimes run into a zerg and get rolled, but there are times when they have small skirmishes as well.

I think the point of WvW is you should have some of each, a big zerg to cap towers/keeps and smaller groups to take camps and sometimes a tower. Would it really make sense if you could just run around and cap keeps with like 5 people. It seems to me you would need an army to do this.

Ruprect.7260:

I never really understand these threads. They make me wonder if T2 is the only tier that has both zergs and small groups. Generally, my guild runs both a zerg groups and numerous small groups(disruption – for taking camps and defense groups.)

Why can’t there be both? Sometimes there is a zerg of 60 but usually less. The other small groups run around and take smaller objectives and defend camps/towers. These groups sometimes run into a zerg and get rolled, but there are times when they have small skirmishes as well.

I think the point of WvW is you should have some of each, a big zerg to cap towers/keeps and smaller groups to take camps and sometimes a tower. Would it really make sense if you could just run around and cap keeps with like 5 people. It seems to me you would need an army to do this.

I see it in T1 also so I don’t really understand why people claim that T1 is 24h zerg. That just doesn’t happen. We do ball up when it is needed but we do split to get something done.

Convenant.7092:

X – But zerging is not effective at all; using 80 people to capture a supply camp is not a sign of efficiency, rather the contrary.

Oh our realm wish for the day to see our enemy zergs r as small as only 80 man :*(

insanesu.3965:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTpVtI732WQ

Piken Square vs Riverside blob 27.03.2013

Riverside, our German enemy in T3 have taken blobbing to epic proportions… its normal for them to run 100+ zergs.

I have to say I agree with the OP. The benefits to drawback ratio for zerging is way out of whack. In the games current implementation with downed state and 5 aoe cap its way to hard for smaller numbers to beat larger numbers.

This is the first game of the kind that ive played that has a cap on aoe targets. If your stupid enough to stand in aoe you should be hit by it. If it means to nerf the suvivability of the elementalist to raise the cap or remove the cap I think it would be worth it. Face the reality a cloth wearing caster with insane dps shouldn’t have more survivability than a Warrior with heavy and twice as much hp.

The biggest problem for the whole zerg vs non zerg is the MAPS. The current maps are all pretty much one way in one way out. It is almost impossible to really flank a large zerg in any map. There is so little open field to actually get an ideal engagement against a zerg. The elevation changes are horrible for small groups. The amount of water in the center of the BL maps is WAAAY too much.. Lose the water make the whole center of the map be open and at least give smaller groups a chance to flank a zerg or give them a chance to get away if an engagement goes poorly.

There needs to be an equalizer between the zerg and non zerg. Bombing/extension style tactics can work awesome against zergs. The smaller groups just need some options to help implement their tactics instead of being force to go head on vs 2-3 times there numbers all the time.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

If you people are not setting up scouts to defend a target, it is your fault.

This is like building a bank vault that’s open to the street with just a screen door and then saying “If people walk inside and steal everything, it’s their fault.”

Maybe, but it’s also an incredibly stupid design for a bank vault.

Similarly, if people don’t want to stand bored to death inside a tower, yeah, maybe that’s their fault. But it’s also an incredibly stupid design for a WvW game.

I guarantee most of your “scouts” are second accounts run on second monitors, which is not a realistic solution to expect the playerbase to adopt.

And more to the point, it’s not how things are playing out. How things are playing out is “zerg circle capping”. Do you want to deal with reality or just say “it’s the player’s fault” as the game slowly dies off?

Too much boon sharing, noob stacking. Increase AOE cap on offensive abilities or remove the cap. I’m tired of hitting pets and other garbage with my AOES. Low skill CAP in wvw and SPVP is broken Meta. Wake up Arenanet. This pve carebear updates with superbox minigame modes is getting old. Make the PVP in this game take skill and not revolve around broken builds/mechanics.

This game rewards zerging and only zerging..

It should of been obvious when Anet decided that WXP is given based on just hitting the person, meaning 100 people can hit a target 1 time and get the same WXP as a 1v1 Fight.

This game will never require remotely any skill in WvW to win the actual match, and it will always reward the most skill-less of play zerging…So its up to you as a player to decide if that bothers you.

Use the same approach to WvWvW and zergs as ArenaNet has used with other aspects of the game: cost versus benefit.

If the benefit of the zerg is safety in numbers and easy World Experience, then – as has been suggested in this thread and several others – make the cost a decreased amount of World Experience. Divide the WXP among all players tagging a defeated opponent or capturing an objective.

For example, if defeating a player rewards 50 WXP and five players participate in the tag, they each get 10 WXP. If fifty players participate in the tag, they each get 1 WXP. If one-hundred players participate in the tag, they each get 1 WXP, as well (values less than 1 would round up to 1). For any value that is not a whole number, it rounds down to the nearest whole number. Fourty players tagging that lone opponent would also only receive 1 WXP (50/40 = 1.25; rounds down to 1). This dividing of the WXP by the number of players involved would apply to any other source of WXP, as well; killing Dolyaks, capturing objectives, defending objectives, etc.

The above does not punish the zerg. If players want to blob up and run around the map as a single mass, there’s nothing stopping them from doing so. They still get WXP (just not as much as if they were to break into smaller groups) along with the benefits/sense of security that comes from running with greater numbers. Meanwhile, successful smaller groups are rewarded more for taking the greater risk of running with fewer numbers.

As it stands now, from a WXP perspective, there is no incentive for doing anything other than running with the largest blob possible. If you aren’t, then you’re doing it wrong (within the context of the current reward mechanics). It nets the most points, with the least effort or risk, in the shortest amount of time. Conversely, splitting WXP based on the number of players involved in the tag gives incentives to alternate forms of play. This isn’t an attempt to eliminate zergs; it’s an attempt to avoid zergs becoming the singular dominant tactic in WvWvW.

Secondly, make the defeated state a meaningful consequence in WvWvW. If sent to defeat, you can not be rezzed while either you or the players attempting to rez you are still in combat. Your only options are to waypoint and run back to catch up with your party, squad, zerg, or blob or wait for the battle to conclude (assuming your side is victorious/out of combat). Again, this goes back to cost:benefit. If a player wants the security that comes from running with greater numbers, that’s fine; that’s the benefit.

However, it shouldn’t confer de facto immunity from a defeat; secure in the knowledge you will always be rezzed due to being surrounded by an overwhelming number of allies. As it stands, there’s no cost to balance this benefit. Making defeat irreversible while still in combat becomes the cost. Don’t want to die? Don’t stand in the AoE. Don’t want to have to run all the way back from a waypoint? Dodge out of that arrow cart’s red circles.

There’s already precedent for this in how rezzing was changed in dungeons. If it can be implemented there, it can be implemented in WvWvW. The only difference would be, unlike dungeons, players sent to defeat in WvWvW can still waypoint.

This change alone avoids any need to change the AoE cap; something ArenaNet isn’t likely to do anyway. Nor would it even be necessary. With players no longer permitted to rez from defeat, a skillful group could whittle away a much larger mob even with the current AoE cap.

If anything, this would lead to even more epic battles. With AoE limits still in place, the smaller group is going to have work harder and play more skillfully to take apart a larger force piece-by-piece. Their victory will be all the more sweet and well-deserved. Contrast this with a situation in which there are no AoE caps; insta-wipe the zerglings who don’t know how to move, dodge, block, reflect, retaliate, or defend. Will be good for LULZ the first couple times, but then would quickly become repetitive and boring shortly thereafter.

What’s more, if they can trial something as major as a culling change like they did back in December, it should be relatively easy by comparison to trial this suggestion for one week, as well. Especially in light of the fact that the coding for it already exists in the dungeons.

The Down system in general is something else that rewards zerging.

Previous games were limited resses in combat by the amount of healers that were available to res, You could always kill a healer to prevent ressing period.

Anet decided in their Wisdom to change that rule and let every Tom, kitten and Harry to do it..Thus breaking balance across the entire game and making encounters require 1 shotting cause of how silly their “Remove the Trinity” system has become.

I like zerging and I like not-zerging. They key is finding a group of people who can you have fun with doing either. It’s often not hard to take towers with a group of 10-15. You can do it with THREE if two are a thieves. xD

I don’t mind zergs if they stay in the 30-40 people range, 70-90 man armies make my computer choke a little and that’s when the game starts to get un-fun. Being a part of a super zerg isn’t fun either…even when we are absolutely crushing everything, hitting an enemy once before it dies is really really boring.

It really is a supply chain issue. 5 peeps can’t carry enough supply to take down a reinforced door or wall. Unless they ninja an unguarded keep or tower and run supply.

Zergs are the most efficient supply chain. Large zergs can put down multiple rams n’ catas over for inner and outer doors/walls withou ever making a supply run. Large zergs can fortify a keep or tower in just a couple of supply runs. Blitzkreig in a nutshell.

Its the nature of WvW. A better fix for those wanting smaller groups would be for ANet to redo spvp in some fashion. Or for those so inclined to just be satisfied with popping camps and yaks. Or, as mentioned before, ninja-ing keeps or towers.

As long as supply is such a critical factor in this game. Large zergs are the equivalent of a fleet of 18 wheelers compared the horse and wagon small groups.

Most of us roamers don’t enjoy sPVP. We don’t like arenas.. what we really love is roaming the WvW maps.

Great idea OP and before tonight I would have agreed.
Except, for the last 2 days, all 3 sides in WvW have been operating huge zergs.
Tonight was different, we all decided to break up the zergs and go as much smaller groups – to experience the worst lag I have ever experienced in game, in areas far away from major activity. This was T4 on Gandara.

Back to the drawing board, it’s obvious the server load is too high and their architecture can’t support the number of players right now, regardless of location.

Jacklo.4230:

Great idea OP and before tonight I would have agreed.
Except, for the last 2 days, all 3 sides in WvW have been operating huge zergs.
Tonight was different, we all decided to break up the zergs and go as much smaller groups – to experience the worst lag I have ever experienced in game, in areas far away from major activity. This was T4 on Gandara.

Back to the drawing board, it’s obvious the server load is too high and their architecture can’t support the number of players right now, regardless of location.

I’ve had the contrary experience actually… even more so than actually breaking the zerg down, spreading the action throughout the zones is very viable tactical wise, and is also healthy for lag.

Convenant.7092:

Jacklo.4230:

Great idea OP and before tonight I would have agreed.
Except, for the last 2 days, all 3 sides in WvW have been operating huge zergs.
Tonight was different, we all decided to break up the zergs and go as much smaller groups – to experience the worst lag I have ever experienced in game, in areas far away from major activity. This was T4 on Gandara.

Back to the drawing board, it’s obvious the server load is too high and their architecture can’t support the number of players right now, regardless of location.

I’ve had the contrary experience actually… even more so than actually breaking the zerg down, spreading the action throughout the zones is very viable tactical wise, and is also healthy for lag.

Well it wasn’t just me, everyone on TS spoke of it from different parts of Europe and even USA.
I hope that it was some coincidence that our server was suffering severe lag and it wasn’t an overall experience.

Making siege cost more (post on page 1) only makes more purpose to run more numbers consolidated.

You really think that a team of 6 would go ninja style capping if they have to do a supply run twice at each gate at keeps? or supply twice on an gate of a tower?

I don’t know … the math behind why people are together is more based on supply. I think capping quantity is hands down more enjoyable, but at the same time … I like to have some good open field collisions (but the skill lag is gross)

Maybe if we had a GvG style offering, it would change the way players play WvW. Open the way of thinking, so people have to use like split strategies, and such. Get players thinking more about something better than all unite on dorito, we having a smash the 1 race.

I’m not a dev, but there is things I bet they have thought about. Things to open new strats. I bet they laugh at us, seeing our WvW … like first year kids soccer. Everyone following the soccer ball, even out of bounds.

Part of the problem is the lack of tools and support to create anything BUT a zerg. Having only two options in WvW to group and coordinate is silly. You either run as a five man or zerg it.

If they have a way for multiple groups to group/coordinate privately to stay under the 25 person limit… we’d actually get more medium size forces running around. The Commander and Squad system needs a huge overhaul to allow people to create private squads and show locations of squad members better.

A big problem is AOE, everything has an AOE, GS, Hammer, Axe; the current mechanics allow everyone to just ball up run into an opposing gathered enemy and hit multiple people without having to specifically target one person; this removes a lot of coordination you would otherwise needs to take down enemies one by one individually; I really hope A-Net goes back and looks at AOE damage again; the amount of AOE in this game is ridiculous and only adds to the zerg mentality.

Large scale zerg fights are the best part of this game. Just last night, there were about 60 invaders trying to capture bay. We had a slightly smaller number defending. Participating in that battle was some of the most fun I’ve ever had in WvW.

I’ve always said before though… there needs to be both zergs and non-zergs. Some people have a preference for one or the other. My hope is that at some point ANET releases a smaller scale map. Let the people who enjoy 5v5 or 10v10 fight there. Its a game and people should have the opportunity to play it the way they want.

I say remove all training wheels from WvW. It’s getting extremely stale in WvW with the new WXP promoting structure flipping versus defending. We need to incentivize defense and punish the big bad zerg. Introduce Nukes and Zerg mines into the game.

Seriously, I love the idea of spreading the WxP out based on how many players you in your group. As far as Zergs there needs to be some sort of dimishing return on mass rezzing or only allow rezzing (unless you are out of combat) people in a downed state and not dead yet. My small group can normally disrupt and surprise a zerg of twice our size and beat them or at least run them off. However, if the group understands the game mechanics and balls up to mass rez we get screwed b/c we can’t hurt the guy that’s getting rezzed b/c he is dead and our AoE only hits 5 people max so we can’t even kill all the rezzers while they are getting up their dead allies.

Summary
1. Remove notification swords and greatly increase rewards for upgrades and defending
2. Introduce Nukes and Zerg Mines – Kidding
3. Spread WxP based on people that participated in the event.
4. Remove rezzing during combat while a person is dead. Leave downed state the way it is though.
5. Increase AoE cap or remove it. – AoE classes aren’t as effective if the groups are smaller. If you want zergs to split up then you have to make it more attractive/rewarding to do something else.