Broken Mechanics When Roaming

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Posted by: Fat Disgrace.4275

Fat Disgrace.4275

Forums bug……….

Fat Disgrace (banned) Man Flu Survivor – war/The Cabbage -Thief (gunners hold / [TaG])

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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

Oh, I 100% did not expect to survive getting jumped by 2 more players. That was just a video I had that illustrates the difference between an avoidable CC and a non-avoidable one.

.. but suppose I had seen them coming and used my 2-second block in anticipation of the steal-burst combo. That should work, right? That’s just good play by expecting an attack and using my defense. Instead, unblockable instant cc.

The CC off the basi strikes is harder to avoid but easier to address once it happens (use stunbreak and a counter much more dangerous to a thief). It a fair tradeoff. My own warrior can get 2 sources of unblockable attacks that lasts for 6 seconds each on a 20 second cooldown meaning in 12 of 20 seconds ALL his attacks can be unblockable. Trust me you do not have enough dodges to deal with it and 12 seconds of unblockables every 20 is far more dangerous then 1 single attack every 40. My warrior can do this while immune to your blinds. Added to this warriors have much more access to stability which can counter many of the engies stuns. If I am on engie I fare better against thief then warrior.

On my thief I tend to favor RFI and or bandits defense to deal with this. RFI will stunbreak and take me out of range of followups , albeit I will take some damage while BD will stunbreak and give a 1.5 second block and I try and use as soon as I turn to stone. That turn to stone is a tell and there is time to react to it.

The issue you have with the basi is not the venom itself as much as it the thief being able to hit from stealth or range instantly. Thats just stealth and ports at work. A one point 5 second stun that is unblockable on an elite skill is NOT op given the 40 second cooldown.

(edited by babazhook.6805)

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Posted by: Caedmon.6798

Caedmon.6798

I can be more annoyed about downed mode and that being the factor of a win or lose when fighting vs more when trying to roam with 1 – 3 than the broken builds being used.

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Posted by: Choppy.4183

Choppy.4183

Warriors can build tanky as hell along with going mace sheild/gs. Met a warrior last night who was probably 3k armour in marurder gear mace sheild durabilty runes. I was s/d thief at the time and my aa’s critting at 1500 dmg and non crits were 740 per hit. He can regeneration that just by afking. Ofc after a few stance rotations I admitted defeat, went out of combat and went d/p and even that took a bit more time then it should.

This is the stats I was using – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAsYl0MhSnY5TwwJw/ELwEmXa4M0Gm7gnwWoWCIAsbA-TlSBQBJUtCsoMgI7PkRlY5TPQXUa8gHAwiUCSJVVAwJA4dwBwW1KAO7szO7szaAt26szOrUACq1C-w

The trick to beating that is not letting him land a burst. So either get in and get out before he can land a headbutt followed by a burst, or just range him with your shortbow.

I know it seems stupid, but if you keep him at range you’ll cut his healing by 2/3 because he won’t have Adrenal Health going. Adding poison to the mix will drop another 1/3 from his remaining healing for as long as it’s on him and resistance isn’t up.

When he’s reflecting your shortbow back at you, just focus on keeping distance until his block is up. Also, if you notice him getting a heal whenever he breaks a stun, stop cc’ing him altogether.

You can’t pull off the above in pvp, but you can in Wvw.

I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)

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Posted by: Fat Disgrace.4275

Fat Disgrace.4275

Warriors can build tanky as hell along with going mace sheild/gs. Met a warrior last night who was probably 3k armour in marurder gear mace sheild durabilty runes. I was s/d thief at the time and my aa’s critting at 1500 dmg and non crits were 740 per hit. He can regeneration that just by afking. Ofc after a few stance rotations I admitted defeat, went out of combat and went d/p and even that took a bit more time then it should.

This is the stats I was using – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAsYl0MhSnY5TwwJw/ELwEmXa4M0Gm7gnwWoWCIAsbA-TlSBQBJUtCsoMgI7PkRlY5TPQXUa8gHAwiUCSJVVAwJA4dwBwW1KAO7szO7szaAt26szOrUACq1C-w

The trick to beating that is not letting him land a burst. So either get in and get out before he can land a headbutt followed by a burst, or just range him with your shortbow.

I know it seems stupid, but if you keep him at range you’ll cut his healing by 2/3 because he won’t have Adrenal Health going. Adding poison to the mix will drop another 1/3 from his remaining healing for as long as it’s on him and resistance isn’t up.

When he’s reflecting your shortbow back at you, just focus on keeping distance until his block is up. Also, if you notice him getting a heal whenever he breaks a stun, stop cc’ing him altogether.

You can’t pull off the above in pvp, but you can in Wvw.

I am fully aware how to beat them but the regen was with out t3 heal because as s/d thief the build and play style relys on constant Presure with aa/flanking strike and postioning. Double endura pain/sheild and mace block was enough time to stop dmg to regen with out using a burst. Ofc it was a different story when I went and changed to d/p

Fat Disgrace (banned) Man Flu Survivor – war/The Cabbage -Thief (gunners hold / [TaG])

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Posted by: Choppy.4183

Choppy.4183

I am fully aware how to beat them but the regen was with out t3 heal because as s/d thief the build and play style relys on constant Presure with aa/flanking strike and postioning. Double endura pain/sheild and mace block was enough time to stop dmg to regen with out using a burst. Ofc it was a different story when I went and changed to d/p

But if he wasn’t landing his burst then his heal was only 460/s, minus poison uptime (if any). A thief should be able to put out far more damage pressure than that. In fact, I know they can because, before the boost to Adrenal Health, warriors (Berserkers included) were seen as too lacking in sustain to be competitive (especially in upper level pvp).

Also, if you were using melee (and it sounds like you were), the mace block will only stop one attack. Which means it has practically no more sustain than all the other x+sh/gs builds out there, and a sword thief is more than capable of grinding those down, especially if you’re skilled enough to deny the burst.

I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
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Posted by: apharma.3741

apharma.3741

Warriors can build tanky as hell along with going mace sheild/gs. Met a warrior last night who was probably 3k armour in marurder gear mace sheild durabilty runes. I was s/d thief at the time and my aa’s critting at 1500 dmg and non crits were 740 per hit. He can regeneration that just by afking. Ofc after a few stance rotations I admitted defeat, went out of combat and went d/p and even that took a bit more time then it should.

This is the stats I was using – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAsYl0MhSnY5TwwJw/ELwEmXa4M0Gm7gnwWoWCIAsbA-TlSBQBJUtCsoMgI7PkRlY5TPQXUa8gHAwiUCSJVVAwJA4dwBwW1KAO7szO7szaAt26szOrUACq1C-w

The trick to beating that is not letting him land a burst. So either get in and get out before he can land a headbutt followed by a burst, or just range him with your shortbow.

I know it seems stupid, but if you keep him at range you’ll cut his healing by 2/3 because he won’t have Adrenal Health going. Adding poison to the mix will drop another 1/3 from his remaining healing for as long as it’s on him and resistance isn’t up.

When he’s reflecting your shortbow back at you, just focus on keeping distance until his block is up. Also, if you notice him getting a heal whenever he breaks a stun, stop cc’ing him altogether.

You can’t pull off the above in pvp, but you can in Wvw.

I am fully aware how to beat them but the regen was with out t3 heal because as s/d thief the build and play style relys on constant Presure with aa/flanking strike and postioning. Double endura pain/sheild and mace block was enough time to stop dmg to regen with out using a burst. Ofc it was a different story when I went and changed to d/p

Lets be honest though, you are comparing the best build a warrior can run vs a much less effective build a thief can run. Even staff thief would be a better pick than S/D as vault has inbuilt evades and does way more damage than flanking strike as well as having access to the all important blinds.

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Posted by: Famine.7915

Famine.7915

Majority of the time, you get the best results by having people in your guild play what they are best at.

Vee/Volk
Maguuma – Predatory Instinct [HUNT]
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Posted by: Fat Disgrace.4275

Fat Disgrace.4275

Warriors can build tanky as hell along with going mace sheild/gs. Met a warrior last night who was probably 3k armour in marurder gear mace sheild durabilty runes. I was s/d thief at the time and my aa’s critting at 1500 dmg and non crits were 740 per hit. He can regeneration that just by afking. Ofc after a few stance rotations I admitted defeat, went out of combat and went d/p and even that took a bit more time then it should.

This is the stats I was using – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAsYl0MhSnY5TwwJw/ELwEmXa4M0Gm7gnwWoWCIAsbA-TlSBQBJUtCsoMgI7PkRlY5TPQXUa8gHAwiUCSJVVAwJA4dwBwW1KAO7szO7szaAt26szOrUACq1C-w

The trick to beating that is not letting him land a burst. So either get in and get out before he can land a headbutt followed by a burst, or just range him with your shortbow.

I know it seems stupid, but if you keep him at range you’ll cut his healing by 2/3 because he won’t have Adrenal Health going. Adding poison to the mix will drop another 1/3 from his remaining healing for as long as it’s on him and resistance isn’t up.

When he’s reflecting your shortbow back at you, just focus on keeping distance until his block is up. Also, if you notice him getting a heal whenever he breaks a stun, stop cc’ing him altogether.

You can’t pull off the above in pvp, but you can in Wvw.

I am fully aware how to beat them but the regen was with out t3 heal because as s/d thief the build and play style relys on constant Presure with aa/flanking strike and postioning. Double endura pain/sheild and mace block was enough time to stop dmg to regen with out using a burst. Ofc it was a different story when I went and changed to d/p

Lets be honest though, you are comparing the best build a warrior can run vs a much less effective build a thief can run. Even staff thief would be a better pick than S/D as vault has inbuilt evades and does way more damage than flanking strike as well as having access to the all important blinds.

that is kinda my point. some builds are just inferior to others vs the same class and i think this is half the trouble, not so much broken mechanics but some builds just work and some do not work at all vs certain class’/builds.

Fat Disgrace (banned) Man Flu Survivor – war/The Cabbage -Thief (gunners hold / [TaG])

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(edited by Fat Disgrace.4275)

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

I never claimed to be able to dodge or block every stun. I try, but I’m certainly not perfect. I also have other tools at my disposal, like blind, immobilize, cripple, etc.

My complaint about basilisk venom is that I can’t ever dodge it and can’t ever block it. If I eat a shield bash. That’s on me. I should have seen it and defended. If I see a thief at 1200 range with venom up, no amount of skilled play on my part will prevent that damage – not even a stun break. I’m still going to take the initial interrupt + first attack before I can react. You can’t say that about too many skills in the game.

Is Basilisk Venom the only instant (by technicality, at least) stun in the game?

No. Interrupt power mesmer can chain-CC with zero tell at 1200 range, and SoM Gunflame warrior inflicts Daze on GF which is also unblockable. Scrapper CC’s from Gyro will keep you guessing just as much as a thief will. Terror Reaper with YSIM can shroud skill flicker for multiple no-tell unblockable AoE fears which lack casts.

All of these options have lower cooldowns.

BV is hardly overpowered if looking at this from just the perspective of the person complaining they can’t block the CC component with some kind of miraculously perfect play. Everyone needs a stunbreak in small-scale.

Still doesn’t change the fact that OP is right that most of the gameplay is now cheese. A lot of people, myself included, have gotten up and left for greener pastures if they wish to PvP.

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Posted by: Hitman.5829

Hitman.5829

Again if the Thief Resets so does the player they are resetting from, and if the Player isn’t a total potatoe they will start moving in a direction instead of standing in the same spot, they have a few options, and all of them will force the Thief to burn more resources to try and disengage to reset or to re-engage that same target, it’s really not that hard, but most players I have ran into root up in the same spot just like a potato waiting for people to re-engage.

No, No, No, if the player has a condition then that player will remain in combat while the thief is out of combat and full health. The thief comes back full health and the other guy half health due to the conditions that kept him in combat.

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Posted by: Fat Disgrace.4275

Fat Disgrace.4275

Again if the Thief Resets so does the player they are resetting from, and if the Player isn’t a total potatoe they will start moving in a direction instead of standing in the same spot, they have a few options, and all of them will force the Thief to burn more resources to try and disengage to reset or to re-engage that same target, it’s really not that hard, but most players I have ran into root up in the same spot just like a potato waiting for people to re-engage.

No, No, No, if the player has a condition then that player will remain in combat while the thief is out of combat and full health. The thief comes back full health and the other guy half health due to the conditions that kept him in combat.

its perfctly fine for a chill mancer to to click 2 buttons and force a thief away though .

Fat Disgrace (banned) Man Flu Survivor – war/The Cabbage -Thief (gunners hold / [TaG])

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

Polymorph Moa on mez elite spec is the end all be all broken mechanics in small roaming groups. It is a free kill.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
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Posted by: Fat Disgrace.4275

Fat Disgrace.4275

Polymorph Moa on mez elite spec is the end all be all broken mechanics in small roaming groups. It is a free kill.

not 100% true. remember that the moa can leap but chasing tagets get obstructed due to poor pathing.

Fat Disgrace (banned) Man Flu Survivor – war/The Cabbage -Thief (gunners hold / [TaG])

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Posted by: Offair.2563

Offair.2563

Polymorph Moa on mez elite spec is the end all be all broken mechanics in small roaming groups. It is a free kill.

Only if you decide to stand still and not using a dodge/skill 2 and 5. Then yes you are right.

Big Babou, Ranger for life.
Madness Rises [Rise] – Banners Hold.
Don’t argue with idiots, they pull you down their level and own you with experience.

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Posted by: Choppy.4183

Choppy.4183

While getting double moa’d after a condi bomb is almost sure death, as a public service announcement, remember that water ends the moa prematurely.

So if you’re near water, take a bath and go back to killin’.

I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
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Posted by: SpellOfIniquity.1780

SpellOfIniquity.1780

While getting double moa’d after a condi bomb is almost sure death, as a public service announcement, remember that water ends the moa prematurely.

So if you’re near water, take a bath and go back to killin’.

Also turns you in to a Salmon if they get you while you’re already in the water.

Necromancer, Ranger, Warrior, Engineer
Champion: Phantom, Hunter, Legionnaire, Genius
WvW rank: Diamond Colonel | Maguuma

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Posted by: Choppy.4183

Choppy.4183

Also turns you in to a Salmon if they get you while you’re already in the water.

Then you have to watch out for bears? XD

I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
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Posted by: SpellOfIniquity.1780

SpellOfIniquity.1780

Also turns you in to a Salmon if they get you while you’re already in the water.

Then you have to watch out for bears? XD

Attachments:

Necromancer, Ranger, Warrior, Engineer
Champion: Phantom, Hunter, Legionnaire, Genius
WvW rank: Diamond Colonel | Maguuma

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Posted by: ArchonWing.9480

ArchonWing.9480

Broken mechanics….

How about just list the ones that aren’t? Would be faster.

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.

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Posted by: apharma.3741

apharma.3741

Warriors can build tanky as hell along with going mace sheild/gs. Met a warrior last night who was probably 3k armour in marurder gear mace sheild durabilty runes. I was s/d thief at the time and my aa’s critting at 1500 dmg and non crits were 740 per hit. He can regeneration that just by afking. Ofc after a few stance rotations I admitted defeat, went out of combat and went d/p and even that took a bit more time then it should.

This is the stats I was using – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAsYl0MhSnY5TwwJw/ELwEmXa4M0Gm7gnwWoWCIAsbA-TlSBQBJUtCsoMgI7PkRlY5TPQXUa8gHAwiUCSJVVAwJA4dwBwW1KAO7szO7szaAt26szOrUACq1C-w

The trick to beating that is not letting him land a burst. So either get in and get out before he can land a headbutt followed by a burst, or just range him with your shortbow.

I know it seems stupid, but if you keep him at range you’ll cut his healing by 2/3 because he won’t have Adrenal Health going. Adding poison to the mix will drop another 1/3 from his remaining healing for as long as it’s on him and resistance isn’t up.

When he’s reflecting your shortbow back at you, just focus on keeping distance until his block is up. Also, if you notice him getting a heal whenever he breaks a stun, stop cc’ing him altogether.

You can’t pull off the above in pvp, but you can in Wvw.

I am fully aware how to beat them but the regen was with out t3 heal because as s/d thief the build and play style relys on constant Presure with aa/flanking strike and postioning. Double endura pain/sheild and mace block was enough time to stop dmg to regen with out using a burst. Ofc it was a different story when I went and changed to d/p

Lets be honest though, you are comparing the best build a warrior can run vs a much less effective build a thief can run. Even staff thief would be a better pick than S/D as vault has inbuilt evades and does way more damage than flanking strike as well as having access to the all important blinds.

that is kinda my point. some builds are just inferior to others vs the same class and i think this is half the trouble, not so much broken mechanics but some builds just work and some do not work at all vs certain class’/builds.

Yeah that’s what HoT did, it dialed up that difference in builds and styles up to 11. One of the biggest issues imo is the presence of apex builds where nothing comes close to offering what they do in that mode or doing what they do, this is shown by guardians, warriors and a lesser extent thief because thief has no place in a zerg.

Anyway I think stealth and high mobility regardless of class is broken, one or the other is fine but both together especially when it can be used frequently is broken as shown by the original celestial shadow and 10s CA. I also think low investment sustain needs to have more risk, there’s far too many traits that require 0 investment in healing that are balanced on core but incredibly strong on elites because they remove the risk or trade off.

I dunno maybe what we really need is more elite specs so they can be balanced better as atm elite specs have no competition in trait lines, only inferior styles and lack a solid purpose slot of the time. An example of such would be why ele has a support elite spec but 2/3 of the overloads are offensive with high to decent damage, same with some of the warhorn skills generally not being very support orientated.

(edited by apharma.3741)

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

Roaming and GvG are always going to be meta or die type play. Only in large group play can non-meta builds be carried. We can gripe all day about how OP a specific build is but every meta build currently has a direct counter that is also meta. We are actually in a good spot in that sense. The gripe is that most of the meta in small scale is mostly bunker and condi with little variation.

BTW if you have 3+ players roaming, mix a Tempest and Guardian as anchor and you can pretty much run whatever setup you want.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

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Posted by: Ragnarox.9601

Ragnarox.9601

Recently came back to the game, met some new friends who started and started a new guild.
There is no structured group composition in this guild right now, the aim of the guild is to run about 5 people.
At the moment we are average 2-5 people depending on the timezone.

However for the past 3 weeks since coming back I have not been having fun when roaming in WvW. I will simply outline the reasons why I think Roaming in WvW is a piece of (insert the word you like).

1. Condi pressure: It feels like there is no variety in the fights when it comes to roaming, it is a constant cycle of condition based thieves, and condition based mesmers. Admittedly, there are occasional Power Warriors.

When fighting in small scale group fights (5 or less), it is a constant cycle of condition based classes and condition based group compositions, notably epidemic spam from necromancers.

As a new guild with players still learning the game as well, this is not very fun to fight, we literally walk up to find a fight of relatively even numbers and the whole group is suddenly dumbfounded with conditions which we do not have enough cleanses for. This continues to be the case even when running a shout guardian with trooper runes.

2. Blast finishers do not benefit roaming: There are not enough beneficial skills that also happen to be blast finishers for roaming builds, as such we cannot take advantage of the light field blast finisher combo.

3. Thieves have way too much mobility, when they have low health they are able to run all the way till they are out of combat and then run all the way back in the fight when many of us still have cooldowns, this just seems unfair.

They are possible to kill with conditions but it is a nightmare to deal with when running power builds for many classes.

4. Warriors have way too much everything, its not like they are impossible to kill but after cycling through their high burst, defensive stances and crowd control, then they finally start running as if they Usain Bolt.

5. Mesmers and Usain Bolt Comparision: Speaking of which mesmers have the same thing combine blink with continuum split and they become Usain Bolt.

6. Druids also play like Thieves: I feel like there is way too much stealth on a class that already has access to range and mobility.

These encounters become problematic, because they become irritating to deal with especially when trying to develop a new roaming guild for a server that constantly has to deal with being outnumbered by higher tier servers. It is hard to keep players motivated when you get into a fight and its not even fun, hell sometimes the fight either does not last 10seconds due to the amount of conditions or it lasts like 10minutes due to the amount of mobility and stealth.

Yes there is always the option of ignoring those players but as soon as the opponent notices a new or inexperienced player in the guild they relentlessly chase after that player forcing them into combat. It is very stressful exhaustive and quite frankly not very fun to play. It actually makes me want to zerg or quit playing instead.

I pretty much think same way.

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Posted by: PierPiero.9142

PierPiero.9142

Recently came back to the game, met some new friends who started and started a new guild.
There is no structured group composition in this guild right now, the aim of the guild is to run about 5 people.
At the moment we are average 2-5 people depending on the timezone.

However for the past 3 weeks since coming back I have not been having fun when roaming in WvW. I will simply outline the reasons why I think Roaming in WvW is a piece of (insert the word you like).

1. Condi pressure: It feels like there is no variety in the fights when it comes to roaming, it is a constant cycle of condition based thieves, and condition based mesmers. Admittedly, there are occasional Power Warriors.

When fighting in small scale group fights (5 or less), it is a constant cycle of condition based classes and condition based group compositions, notably epidemic spam from necromancers.

As a new guild with players still learning the game as well, this is not very fun to fight, we literally walk up to find a fight of relatively even numbers and the whole group is suddenly dumbfounded with conditions which we do not have enough cleanses for. This continues to be the case even when running a shout guardian with trooper runes.

2. Blast finishers do not benefit roaming: There are not enough beneficial skills that also happen to be blast finishers for roaming builds, as such we cannot take advantage of the light field blast finisher combo.

3. Thieves have way too much mobility, when they have low health they are able to run all the way till they are out of combat and then run all the way back in the fight when many of us still have cooldowns, this just seems unfair.

They are possible to kill with conditions but it is a nightmare to deal with when running power builds for many classes.

4. Warriors have way too much everything, its not like they are impossible to kill but after cycling through their high burst, defensive stances and crowd control, then they finally start running as if they Usain Bolt.

5. Mesmers and Usain Bolt Comparision: Speaking of which mesmers have the same thing combine blink with continuum split and they become Usain Bolt.

6. Druids also play like Thieves: I feel like there is way too much stealth on a class that already has access to range and mobility.

These encounters become problematic, because they become irritating to deal with especially when trying to develop a new roaming guild for a server that constantly has to deal with being outnumbered by higher tier servers. It is hard to keep players motivated when you get into a fight and its not even fun, hell sometimes the fight either does not last 10seconds due to the amount of conditions or it lasts like 10minutes due to the amount of mobility and stealth.

Yes there is always the option of ignoring those players but as soon as the opponent notices a new or inexperienced player in the guild they relentlessly chase after that player forcing them into combat. It is very stressful exhaustive and quite frankly not very fun to play. It actually makes me want to zerg or quit playing instead.

I pretty much think same way.

The problem is not condition damage, it is damage overall . There are a lot of builds with high toughness and absurde damage , direct or condi . There are warriors and guardians bunker as hell that hits like a truck and there are condi bombers with toughenss and vitality . In spvp this situation has been changed removing a lot of amulet ( soldier, cleric, settler, celestial … ) but in wvw even if you remove some of them you could mix stat ( for example marauder and knight or rabid and carrion ) . So the problem is the power creep genereted after Hot release. Problem of small scale fighting in my opinion is the ability to disengage . In this warriors, thieves, druids are op. Mesmer are far from being Usain Bolt. Try to chase a warrior , a thief or a druid with mesmer… you will neve catch them. Mesmser has a great in fight mobility with staff ( and in littler measure ) with sword 3 . Mesmer is not fast but it has really goods repositioning skills which help you a lot to avoid damage. Blink is 32 secs cd and i’d not use continuum split for a double blink. It has access to stealth but not like some druids or thieves obvioulsy.

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Posted by: Sarika.3756

Sarika.3756

People want to see big damage numbers. They like chest thumping when they insta down someone. What they forget is that being on the other side of that isn’t fun if there’s little or no counter play.

If someone has enough time to react and they get outplayed, they’ll start trying to figure out how to counter.

If their experience is boom insta death too frequently, and they don’t believe they can do much about it, they will do something else.

(edited by Sarika.3756)

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

The game isn’t designed for roaming – it’s designed for large scale battles.

Considering the insane lag any blob causes, this assertion is at best doubtful.

Nevertheless, it is (or at least, should be) true. Roaming have always felt like a pretty bad PvP. It’s basically the same, except there are no clear goals and there’s no guarantee the team sizes are equal.

Large scale combat, on the other hand, is where WvW potential really shines.

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Posted by: Choppy.4183

Choppy.4183

Nevertheless, it is (or at least, should be) true. Roaming have always felt like a pretty bad PvP. It’s basically the same, except there are no clear goals and there’s no guarantee the team sizes are equal.

Large scale combat, on the other hand, is where WvW potential really shines.

That’s what makes roaming interesting, and why I personally prefer it to pvp. There’s a lot more variation and, yes, broken stuff that you can encounter

I’ve been playing wvw almost exclusively for several years, and I find the large scale combat boring as hell. It’s also not conducive to mastering a class.

Wvw is like a pvp sandbox with pve content in it. The large scale stuff came to dominate because it was effective, not because of preordained purpose.

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

Dunno, the combat mechanics work pretty well in a large scale combat, for a game designed around PvE. You might be right, it’s just my feeling.

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Posted by: PierPiero.9142

PierPiero.9142

Dunno, the combat mechanics work pretty well in a large scale combat, for a game designed around PvE. You might be right, it’s just my feeling.

In a large scale combat all can work. The only difference that is predominant in a zerg fight is “numbers” …. the bigger one usually wins. In a small scale fight it is completely another business … this is the reason becouse zerg is boring as hell …

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Posted by: shagwell.1349

shagwell.1349

Easy answer:
Thief in general. Best mobility in the game (with stun break), condition cleanse, self buffs, high damage and permanent access to stealth. In pvp only half as powerful because the stats are capped. Needs to happen in wvw too.

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Posted by: Feanor.2358

Feanor.2358

Dunno, the combat mechanics work pretty well in a large scale combat, for a game designed around PvE. You might be right, it’s just my feeling.

In a large scale combat all can work. The only difference that is predominant in a zerg fight is “numbers” …. the bigger one usually wins. In a small scale fight it is completely another business … this is the reason becouse zerg is boring as hell …

Small scale is exactly the same in regards to outcome. Numbers win except if there’s difference in skill level. However in large scale combat it’s not so much about your personal skills and mastery over your class/build. It’s about coordinating a group effort and outmaneuvering your opponents, which are entirely different skills.

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Posted by: Turk.5460

Turk.5460

Easy answer:
Thief in general. Best mobility in the game (with stun break), condition cleanse, self buffs, high damage and permanent access to stealth. In pvp only half as powerful because the stats are capped. Needs to happen in wvw too.

Doesn’t every other profession have (more) stun breaks, condi cleanse, (more) self boons, but can also survive being hit by 2 skills?


The answer is yes, please pick something actually broken.

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Posted by: Sirbeaumerdier.3740

Sirbeaumerdier.3740

Dunno, the combat mechanics work pretty well in a large scale combat, for a game designed around PvE. You might be right, it’s just my feeling.

In a large scale combat all can work. The only difference that is predominant in a zerg fight is “numbers” …. the bigger one usually wins. In a small scale fight it is completely another business … this is the reason becouse zerg is boring as hell …

This is a myth that there are no skill involved in larger scale combat. The difference is, the skills are different. Individual skills become less important than how well you can synergize and cooperate with others.

You can clearly see and predict a large fight outcome by looking at how the group play well together. This isn’t random luck when a group continue to win over and over against other groups of similar size or even larger.

Of course, number is always an incredibly important variable, but it is so for all fights period.

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Posted by: shagwell.1349

shagwell.1349

Easy answer:
Thief in general. Best mobility in the game (with stun break), condition cleanse, self buffs, high damage and permanent access to stealth. In pvp only half as powerful because the stats are capped. Needs to happen in wvw too.

Doesn’t every other profession have (more) stun breaks, condi cleanse, (more) self boons, but can also survive being hit by 2 skills?


The answer is yes, please pick something actually broken.

Is that the reason 90% of the roaming population are thieves these days? I mean, if every other class can do that better, why is everyone and their mother a thief?

Right, all the classes don’t have that all at once and high mobility. They sacrifice either mobility, or condi cleanse, or tankiness, or dodge/evade or stealth.

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Posted by: apharma.3741

apharma.3741

Easy answer:
Thief in general. Best mobility in the game (with stun break), condition cleanse, self buffs, high damage and permanent access to stealth. In pvp only half as powerful because the stats are capped. Needs to happen in wvw too.

Doesn’t every other profession have (more) stun breaks, condi cleanse, (more) self boons, but can also survive being hit by 2 skills?


The answer is yes, please pick something actually broken.

Daredevil has I believe the 2nd lowest cool down stun break in the game (not counting revs due to energy/traiting) and certainly one of the lowest cool down blocks in the game. It also generally has the lowest cool down on their heals while also being nearly completely immune to chill, cripple and immobilise which are massive problems for other classes. They also enjoy some pretty decent condition cleansing since SoA was buffed to 3 conditions but the endurance regen wasn’t nerfed like it was in PvP.

There’s also very few classes that can survive 2 hits if they run zerk and obviously didn’t use any skills, that’s without mentioning most thieves use enough marauder to hit 16k health which most classes try to get for roaming. I think only warriors can really survive 2 hits from anything that would down a thief. Certainly everything that would down a thief in 2 hits would down an equally geared ele, guard, mesmer, ranger, engy and rev assuming no passive trait proc’d, which is possible if you go from above the health threshold to downed.

I agree though, they should pick things that are actually broken like stealth, like the excessive mobility some classes have and the excessive regen some classes have.

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Posted by: Fat Disgrace.4275

Fat Disgrace.4275

Easy answer:
Thief in general. Best mobility in the game (with stun break), condition cleanse, self buffs, high damage and permanent access to stealth. In pvp only half as powerful because the stats are capped. Needs to happen in wvw too.

Doesn’t every other profession have (more) stun breaks, condi cleanse, (more) self boons, but can also survive being hit by 2 skills?


The answer is yes, please pick something actually broken.

Is that the reason 90% of the roaming population are thieves these days? I mean, if every other class can do that better, why is everyone and their mother a thief?

Right, all the classes don’t have that all at once and high mobility. They sacrifice either mobility, or condi cleanse, or tankiness, or dodge/evade or stealth.

Actually no. At least in the last 4 mu I have been in, I have seen far more dh/warriors and tank druids in fact I rarly encounter them at all and this is defending home bl where there should be thives Ganking our camp/dollys.

Fat Disgrace (banned) Man Flu Survivor – war/The Cabbage -Thief (gunners hold / [TaG])

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Posted by: Fat Disgrace.4275

Fat Disgrace.4275

Easy answer:
Thief in general. Best mobility in the game (with stun break), condition cleanse, self buffs, high damage and permanent access to stealth. In pvp only half as powerful because the stats are capped. Needs to happen in wvw too.

Doesn’t every other profession have (more) stun breaks, condi cleanse, (more) self boons, but can also survive being hit by 2 skills?


The answer is yes, please pick something actually broken.

Daredevil has I believe the 2nd lowest cool down stun break in the game (not counting revs due to energy/traiting) and certainly one of the lowest cool down blocks in the game. It also generally has the lowest cool down on their heals while also being nearly completely immune to chill, cripple and immobilise which are massive problems for other classes. They also enjoy some pretty decent condition cleansing since SoA was buffed to 3 conditions but the endurance regen wasn’t nerfed like it was in PvP.

There’s also very few classes that can survive 2 hits if they run zerk and obviously didn’t use any skills, that’s without mentioning most thieves use enough marauder to hit 16k health which most classes try to get for roaming. I think only warriors can really survive 2 hits from anything that would down a thief. Certainly everything that would down a thief in 2 hits would down an equally geared ele, guard, mesmer, ranger, engy and rev assuming no passive trait proc’d, which is possible if you go from above the health threshold to downed.

I agree though, they should pick things that are actually broken like stealth, like the excessive mobility some classes have and the excessive regen some classes have.

It’s hard to even 2 hit a thief there’s days because of marurder gear as a thief unless you invest in utility skills you can pre cast from steal. Engies laugh at a thief open spike, so do druids, dh, ele too depending on build… If they are fresh air bust then yeah it will sting them a lot and a power shatter mesmer can suffer too. The fact is, every build I have come across if they are built for roaming can easily counter Presure a thief if they are compitent enough and have experienced playing s thief. But s lot of people don’t and instead rant on the forums about them. Been playing scrapper and tempest for a good month or so and I have yet to find a thief where they total shut me down, yeah I lost a few because I am Un experienced on the newer class’s but I sure wasn’t helpless at all.

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Posted by: apharma.3741

apharma.3741

Easy answer:
Thief in general. Best mobility in the game (with stun break), condition cleanse, self buffs, high damage and permanent access to stealth. In pvp only half as powerful because the stats are capped. Needs to happen in wvw too.

Doesn’t every other profession have (more) stun breaks, condi cleanse, (more) self boons, but can also survive being hit by 2 skills?


The answer is yes, please pick something actually broken.

Daredevil has I believe the 2nd lowest cool down stun break in the game (not counting revs due to energy/traiting) and certainly one of the lowest cool down blocks in the game. It also generally has the lowest cool down on their heals while also being nearly completely immune to chill, cripple and immobilise which are massive problems for other classes. They also enjoy some pretty decent condition cleansing since SoA was buffed to 3 conditions but the endurance regen wasn’t nerfed like it was in PvP.

There’s also very few classes that can survive 2 hits if they run zerk and obviously didn’t use any skills, that’s without mentioning most thieves use enough marauder to hit 16k health which most classes try to get for roaming. I think only warriors can really survive 2 hits from anything that would down a thief. Certainly everything that would down a thief in 2 hits would down an equally geared ele, guard, mesmer, ranger, engy and rev assuming no passive trait proc’d, which is possible if you go from above the health threshold to downed.

I agree though, they should pick things that are actually broken like stealth, like the excessive mobility some classes have and the excessive regen some classes have.

It’s hard to even 2 hit a thief there’s days because of marurder gear as a thief unless you invest in utility skills you can pre cast from steal. Engies laugh at a thief open spike, so do druids, dh, ele too depending on build… If they are fresh air bust then yeah it will sting them a lot and a power shatter mesmer can suffer too. The fact is, every build I have come across if they are built for roaming can easily counter Presure a thief if they are compitent enough and have experienced playing s thief. But s lot of people don’t and instead rant on the forums about them. Been playing scrapper and tempest for a good month or so and I have yet to find a thief where they total shut me down, yeah I lost a few because I am Un experienced on the newer class’s but I sure wasn’t helpless at all.

I was just rely pointing out that everything that the guy is saying thieves don’t have they actually have plenty of with the exception of boons. It’s kinda like the thieves that champion the class and say it has no passives but conveniently forget about acro, panic strikes and a fair number of other very passive traits.

Yeah a scrapper should never really get burst down by a thief as they usually have protection on CC which reduces the burst substantially. Ele it can be tricky as they have low base health and instead rely more on regening health than completely avoid being hit. A thief should never lose to FA ele, at all, ever and is the only instance I would say that thief player should gitgud. A DD ele built like Sevens can go down very fast if caught unaware but a quick shocking aura or ring of fire into fire grab can knock off over half a thieves health.

Power shatter I tend to find depends on if you can CC the thief long enough to get a burst off, if you can’t then it will usually be GG. Given I see bandits defence a lot with thieves it means they usually have a stunbreak ready and proceed to dodge away 3 times, stealth for a while till mesmer wastes its cool downs then BS, auto till dead.

Anyway what are you playing for tempest, a variant on Sevens builds or the meta?

(edited by apharma.3741)

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Posted by: Fat Disgrace.4275

Fat Disgrace.4275

Yeah pretty much 7s set up just minus some ascended gear. I lost to a few fresh airs in the past but that’s as d/d or s/d dueling.

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Posted by: Turk.5460

Turk.5460

I was just rely pointing out that everything that the guy is saying thieves don’t have they actually have plenty of with the exception of boons. It’s kinda like the thieves that champion the class and say it has no passives but conveniently forget about acro, panic strikes and a fair number of other very passive traits.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break
Thieves have 2. Shadow return doesn’t really constitute a third, considering the likelyhood of a thief not-using it AND getting stunned again within the 10 seconds makes this 2nd half of the skill irrelevant to our conversation.

The builds that people incessantly whine about mostly do not incorporate Acro. You conveniently forgot that these “thief champions” talk about passive defenses, not offenses, so…lose the panic strikes. Please elaborate on these “fair number of other very passive traits” – please keep in mind that the imaginary defender of your pre-rebuttle would 100% be specifying passive defenses.

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Posted by: apharma.3741

apharma.3741

I was just rely pointing out that everything that the guy is saying thieves don’t have they actually have plenty of with the exception of boons. It’s kinda like the thieves that champion the class and say it has no passives but conveniently forget about acro, panic strikes and a fair number of other very passive traits.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break
Thieves have 2. Shadow return doesn’t really constitute a third, considering the likelyhood of a thief not-using it AND getting stunned again within the 10 seconds makes this 2nd half of the skill irrelevant to our conversation.

The builds that people incessantly whine about mostly do not incorporate Acro. You conveniently forgot that these “thief champions” talk about passive defenses, not offenses, so…lose the panic strikes. Please elaborate on these “fair number of other very passive traits” – please keep in mind that the imaginary defender of your pre-rebuttle would 100% be specifying passive defenses.

Yes but bandits defence is on such a low cool down that it makes it much stronger than most classes stunbreaks especially when traited. You don’t need 3 stun breaks (especially if on 30-40s) if you have one on a 12s CD which also blocks, shadowstep is just an exceptionally good skill no thief would be without, however it is still a stunbreak and so you can’t simply discount it because the use of its 2nd break likely won’t be used.

Actually these champions of the class say no passives, they do not distinguish between offensive, defensive or build and all types are bad for the game in large amounts. Heck most thieves don’t even realise how the minors in DA force cleanses out if the opponent wants to counter attack or heal as the minors make sure sure the target is poisoned and weakened, the weakness being a passive trait for when you inflict poison.

As for not taking acro, that’s the player choice but we saw what it could do with daredevil, there’s plenty of videos around of troll daredevils. That DD condi daredevil, the vault spam with a 250ms window to interrupt all used acro making it as resilient as other classes that took thier equivalent trait line. The point is thief has just as many of these passive defences and some passive offences as every other class with the former in acro and most of the latter in DA and trickery.

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Posted by: Dangus.6572

Dangus.6572

Thief is formula 1 in WvW but not all tracks in WvW are made of asphalt. Thief has 2 options how to defend him. 1 – stealth, dodge. both gives him advantage. Bandit’s defence is useless skill IMHO.

Thieves are not OP. People who are good at playing thief and rolled other class can kill them. It’s very difficult or impossible to kill thief if you are not good at playing thief. Sometimes it happens if you use broken builds or thief is making lots of mistakes. Also do not expect to kill thief if you are using Zerg squishy builds. Your class build must be prepared for thief.

How to kill the thief. CC and spike. If you burst thief has plenty time to escape. Never chase thief, never. Never stand still. move slightly and always attack with weapon. Sometimes conditions can kill unprepared thieves. But smart thieves knows how to fight them. Do not forget that there are plenty of different thief builds. So without knowing who you are fighting there is no chance to win.

I think people are disappointed not with thief class but because people use it without honour.

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Posted by: Turk.5460

Turk.5460

I was just rely pointing out that everything that the guy is saying thieves don’t have they actually have plenty of with the exception of boons. It’s kinda like the thieves that champion the class and say it has no passives but conveniently forget about acro, panic strikes and a fair number of other very passive traits.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break
Thieves have 2. Shadow return doesn’t really constitute a third, considering the likelyhood of a thief not-using it AND getting stunned again within the 10 seconds makes this 2nd half of the skill irrelevant to our conversation.

The builds that people incessantly whine about mostly do not incorporate Acro. You conveniently forgot that these “thief champions” talk about passive defenses, not offenses, so…lose the panic strikes. Please elaborate on these “fair number of other very passive traits” – please keep in mind that the imaginary defender of your pre-rebuttle would 100% be specifying passive defenses.

Yes but bandits defence is on such a low cool down that it makes it much stronger than most classes stunbreaks especially when traited. You don’t need 3 stun breaks (especially if on 30-40s) if you have one on a 12s CD which also blocks, shadowstep is just an exceptionally good skill no thief would be without, however it is still a stunbreak and so you can’t simply discount it because the use of its 2nd break likely won’t be used.

Actually these champions of the class say no passives, they do not distinguish between offensive, defensive or build and all types are bad for the game in large amounts. Heck most thieves don’t even realise how the minors in DA force cleanses out if the opponent wants to counter attack or heal as the minors make sure sure the target is poisoned and weakened, the weakness being a passive trait for when you inflict poison.

As for not taking acro, that’s the player choice but we saw what it could do with daredevil, there’s plenty of videos around of troll daredevils. That DD condi daredevil, the vault spam with a 250ms window to interrupt all used acro making it as resilient as other classes that took thier equivalent trait line. The point is thief has just as many of these passive defences and some passive offences as every other class with the former in acro and most of the latter in DA and trickery.

You’re really, really, reeeeeeeaaaaally stretching for validation to your incredibly generalized claims. As for these minor passives you’re trying real hard to press for – you might as well incorporate every profession into your argument, because by your logic, “10% greatsword damage and shorter cooldowns forces people to press their heal sooner” falls into the same realm of logic as “forcing people to cleanse due to DA poison trait”…

I’ll reiterate, “The builds that people incessantly whine about mostly do not incorporate Acro.” At first you didn’t seem the type of person who thinks Thieves can trait 4 lines at once, but…its sounding more and more like that’s your mindset. :\

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Posted by: apharma.3741

apharma.3741

I was just rely pointing out that everything that the guy is saying thieves don’t have they actually have plenty of with the exception of boons. It’s kinda like the thieves that champion the class and say it has no passives but conveniently forget about acro, panic strikes and a fair number of other very passive traits.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break
Thieves have 2. Shadow return doesn’t really constitute a third, considering the likelyhood of a thief not-using it AND getting stunned again within the 10 seconds makes this 2nd half of the skill irrelevant to our conversation.

The builds that people incessantly whine about mostly do not incorporate Acro. You conveniently forgot that these “thief champions” talk about passive defenses, not offenses, so…lose the panic strikes. Please elaborate on these “fair number of other very passive traits” – please keep in mind that the imaginary defender of your pre-rebuttle would 100% be specifying passive defenses.

Yes but bandits defence is on such a low cool down that it makes it much stronger than most classes stunbreaks especially when traited. You don’t need 3 stun breaks (especially if on 30-40s) if you have one on a 12s CD which also blocks, shadowstep is just an exceptionally good skill no thief would be without, however it is still a stunbreak and so you can’t simply discount it because the use of its 2nd break likely won’t be used.

Actually these champions of the class say no passives, they do not distinguish between offensive, defensive or build and all types are bad for the game in large amounts. Heck most thieves don’t even realise how the minors in DA force cleanses out if the opponent wants to counter attack or heal as the minors make sure sure the target is poisoned and weakened, the weakness being a passive trait for when you inflict poison.

As for not taking acro, that’s the player choice but we saw what it could do with daredevil, there’s plenty of videos around of troll daredevils. That DD condi daredevil, the vault spam with a 250ms window to interrupt all used acro making it as resilient as other classes that took thier equivalent trait line. The point is thief has just as many of these passive defences and some passive offences as every other class with the former in acro and most of the latter in DA and trickery.

You’re really, really, reeeeeeeaaaaally stretching for validation to your incredibly generalized claims. As for these minor passives you’re trying real hard to press for – you might as well incorporate every profession into your argument, because by your logic, “10% greatsword damage and shorter cooldowns forces people to press their heal sooner” falls into the same realm of logic as “forcing people to cleanse due to DA poison trait”…

I’ll reiterate, “The builds that people incessantly whine about mostly do not incorporate Acro.” At first you didn’t seem the type of person who thinks Thieves can trait 4 lines at once, but…its sounding more and more like that’s your mindset. :\

Still doesn’t change that acro has tons of passive defences, pretty much the same as most classes and yet you hear thieves complaining so much about passives. I also didn’t say anything or imply that thieves pack all of this into one super build, I was only pointing out that thief has a similar number of passives as every other class.

I notice you jump on one sentence and make your entire post about it instead of all the rest, you made a claim that thieves have less stun breaks, boons and condition clears. The reality is they have the absolute best control condition clearing in the game atm and some exceptional stunbreaks, the change to SoA means they aren’t extraordinarily weak vs condi. I agreed they don’t have access to a wide variety of boons (obviously we don’t count consume plasma) but I also pointed out most classes except maybe war and necro will be 2 hit in equal gear.

Anyway let’s move the topic back on track. What do you find are broken mechanics in WvW roaming? I think good contenders are boon spam and how much sustain some specs have without investing in healing power.