Guild Wars 2

For real which dev allows such stupid builds? Nerv this nonsense crap !

Anet gonna Anet my friend.

/in b4 l2p

This is not l2p issue. Condi is overall to strong.

There was this really hilarious one on last night that would just spam dodges non-stop. 3 dodges, Signet of Agility, 2 more dodges, Channeled Vigor, 2 more dodges, then smoke cloud spam. Oh, and with Sigil’s of Energy on weapons for more dodges.

Like, I could stealth and take two steps back and just watch him go to town on nothing.

He was also wearing Dire or Trailblazer so he took forever to kill, but since he blew all his cooldowns on thin air it wasn’t a big deal. The kicker is that, if he got 2 stacks of bleed on me from one of those dodges, I’d die if I didn’t clear it. That means that if I had to clear condis once, getting hit a second time meant certain death. If the guy had any idea what he was doing, it would have been really annoying.

Ill call bs on 2 stacks of bleed downing you. Also confused why he was able to use smoke clouds on a weapon set that lacks smoke fields.

First D/P and now Condi…blasphemous. They should just delete the class and ban all players that abuse that broken OP class, right?

Condition builds are just broken, you can build to have nigh-invincibility while pumping out bursty condition stacks, while your target foolishly tries to clear the conditions on them, that are just reapplied moments later.

But I am sure someone will reply with a response that makes you think they know of a build that has unlimited cleanses/resistances to match up against any condition build.

Sviel.7493:

There was this really hilarious one on last night that would just spam dodges non-stop. 3 dodges, Signet of Agility, 2 more dodges, Channeled Vigor, 2 more dodges, then smoke cloud spam. Oh, and with Sigil’s of Energy on weapons for more dodges.

Like, I could stealth and take two steps back and just watch him go to town on nothing.

He was also wearing Dire or Trailblazer so he took forever to kill, but since he blew all his cooldowns on thin air it wasn’t a big deal. The kicker is that, if he got 2 stacks of bleed on me from one of those dodges, I’d die if I didn’t clear it. That means that if I had to clear condis once, getting hit a second time meant certain death. If the guy had any idea what he was doing, it would have been really annoying.

Did you mean two ticks? I’ve come against heavy two ticker bleeders but not two stackers.

Odokuro.5049:

Condition builds are just broken, you can build to have nigh-invincibility while pumping out bursty condition stacks, while your target foolishly tries to clear the conditions on them, that are just reapplied moments later.

But I am sure someone will reply with a response that makes you think they know of a build that has unlimited cleanses/resistances to match up against any condition build.

Also a big problem with condi in wvwvw comes from laggs. I die often because they are ticking but because of lag i can’t cleanse them.

Grebcol.5984:

Odokuro.5049:

Condition builds are just broken, you can build to have nigh-invincibility while pumping out bursty condition stacks, while your target foolishly tries to clear the conditions on them, that are just reapplied moments later.

But I am sure someone will reply with a response that makes you think they know of a build that has unlimited cleanses/resistances to match up against any condition build.

Also a big problem with condi in wvwvw comes from laggs. I die often because they are ticking but because of lag i can’t cleanse them.

I also have this suspicion that people with higher pings may also opt for the condi builds because little mistakes when you go power is insta death due to timing issues and skills not going off. Condi helps them survive a little bit longer while having the opportunity to dish out some damage before dying. Can’t say the same for people with good ping though. On the matter of condi though, I have to say I am chaotic neutral :x

DemonSeed.3528:

Sviel.7493:

There was this really hilarious one on last night that would just spam dodges non-stop. 3 dodges, Signet of Agility, 2 more dodges, Channeled Vigor, 2 more dodges, then smoke cloud spam. Oh, and with Sigil’s of Energy on weapons for more dodges.

Like, I could stealth and take two steps back and just watch him go to town on nothing.

He was also wearing Dire or Trailblazer so he took forever to kill, but since he blew all his cooldowns on thin air it wasn’t a big deal. The kicker is that, if he got 2 stacks of bleed on me from one of those dodges, I’d die if I didn’t clear it. That means that if I had to clear condis once, getting hit a second time meant certain death. If the guy had any idea what he was doing, it would have been really annoying.

Did you mean two ticks? I’ve come against heavy two ticker bleeders but not two stackers.

More than likely 2 ticks (and I can believe 2 is enough to down some builds). 2 stacks is nothing special.

Unless he was running a super glass thief with 11k hp and the combination of power damage and condi damage was enough to down him over time…

But really I’d be impressed if he was running a build that glassy and still managed to get killed by two stacks of bleed. That is something special.

saerni.2584:

Unless he was running a super glass thief with 11k hp and the combination of power damage and condi damage was enough to down him over time…

But really I’d be impressed if he was running a build that glassy and still managed to get killed by two stacks of bleed. That is something special.

Yeah I call BS on 2 stacks killing him as thief doesn’t generally have super long lasting bleed like necros. I’ve come across a SFR permanent stealth thief though and the damage from poison is insane. Such a disgusting build, can’t kill 1v1 (mostly because the guy sucks so much I killed him as power shatter) but he spends so much time lurking to +1 fights and stay invisible the whole time it’s just as annoying as ghost thief ever was.

I was referring to the SB #4 poison cloud. Calling it smoke was pretty unclear, so sorry about that.

It was 2 stacks of bleed with a very long duration. I had about 15k hp max but was probably at about half since he showed up while I was in combat. I stealthed out but was hit by one of his dodges and just kind of watched it to see how much damage it would do. It was enough that I had to blow my heal to keep watching and still almost went down. It took a long time, but not so long that any condi clear would come off cooldown. Thus, when I went back to fight him, I made sure to stand back while he ran himself out of dodges before engaging.

this probably what you guys are refering to

Condi thieves are the lowest of the low and should be stripped of any human right.

I dont meet many of em tho, it’s nice to see there are still people with some dignity out there.

Assuming a thief has 2200 condition damage. This is about the highest they can achieve and most are lower.

Bleed gives 22 damage per second base.
The added 2200 will tick 132 per second.

That is 154 per stack per second meaning 2 gets about 308. If we get a 25 percent bonus from both lead attacks and the Impaling we get roughly 70 more meaning total tick per second less then 400. It pretty hard to bleed out even if one waited to full duration without doing anything. I assure you in that 10 seconds the bleed might have lastet a aingle attack from a power build can do more damage. If the poster at 7.5k health as suggested One p/p unload or one backstab can take you out and it would not take 10 seconds.

Grebcol.5984:

Odokuro.5049:

Condition builds are just broken, you can build to have nigh-invincibility while pumping out bursty condition stacks, while your target foolishly tries to clear the conditions on them, that are just reapplied moments later.

But I am sure someone will reply with a response that makes you think they know of a build that has unlimited cleanses/resistances to match up against any condition build.

Also a big problem with condi in wvwvw comes from laggs. I die often because they are ticking but because of lag i can’t cleanse them.

I die faster to power builds due to lag. They can generate more damage quicker.

I mean it is possible, though it’d be pretty brainless play from the other guy and would require no cleanses at all.

Improvisation + Tooth Stab would get you there.

The trick is to make them chase you and land your condi burst on them then cease attacking when they least expect it since they rely on traited condi removal of evade spam.

That or pray to god you can time your power bursts/CC them when their evade frame ends but standing still LETTING them vomit their condi’s on you is obviously gonna get you killed…

wow where to get such leet build, anyone?

Most broken class ever. That’s for sure.

The issue for me. is that condi removal skills across the board should grant at least 1 second of immune to condition reapplication. — whats the point of cleansing if they just reapply them instantly.

More cleanse immunity means more burst required. Just so everyone here is clear about that.

Death Blossom bleeds are high duration but 450/tick (tell me if I’m wrong about the damage rate) for 10 seconds is 4.5k, if it somehow reached 20 seconds, 9k. One heal will be at least 4-5k hp if not more. How did you almost go down AFTER healing? And if you were running withdraw that would cleanse the bleed if traited for it.

And the comparison to power is laughable. A single auto attack or other ability can hit for 4-5k. His odds of outright killing you if he was on a D/P or even D/D build seems extremely high. You let it tick and didn’t hit your heal until you felt you “had too” which also seems like a strange decision to make.

At half hp, jumped by a competent thief, you will die (as a thief at least). That you survived with a scratch you felt comfortable letting continue to fester speaks more to your opponents lack of skill than anything.

Condi overall on every class is just ridiculous.

0 risk high reward require no skills to play

mostly noobs play condi and think they are special and pro and yet they get destroyed in less than 10 sec on power build

another month and another thread crying about condition thieves. You all do not know when to collect your chips and leave the table after you got thief traps to apply small direct damage to reveal. Now it’s evasion condition builds, next it will be D/P poison burst interrupt builds…

Roxanne.6140:

wow where to get such leet build, anyone?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZUQNAoYVn8lCFNhNNBGmC8PhFqiaO77+w37C+gtrLBCgDA-TVyHQBXUJ4BVGYgTpQ403AgnUwH2fIeqqEQleKStiMDDADhIIiIu7u7aEREhUALqsC-w

This is what I used to use on my Thief/DD to roam in WvW with.

Evades/Regen/Healing/Vigor/Endurance out the butt. The only time I would Stealth was for the stomp, and after the initial burst, to see the targets reaction. (Burst consisted of, 2x venoms, basilisk, dodge into a steal, 2x death blossom, dodge, CnD) Then I would wait two seconds after that to see their reaction, I’de throw a dagger at them to cripple, then block their attack with Bandit’s Defense (Gaining endurance.) then Dodge, 2x death blossom. Then make sure to keep up my venoms, and make sure to dodge every three to four seconds to keep the +10% condi damage buff from the DD dodge trait.

It was VERY easy to evade most things, if played smart.

saerni.2584:

More cleanse immunity means more burst required. Just so everyone here is clear about that.

Death Blossom bleeds are high duration but 450/tick (tell me if I’m wrong about the damage rate) for 10 seconds is 4.5k, if it somehow reached 20 seconds, 9k. One heal will be at least 4-5k hp if not more. How did you almost go down AFTER healing? And if you were running withdraw that would cleanse the bleed if traited for it.

And the comparison to power is laughable. A single auto attack or other ability can hit for 4-5k. His odds of outright killing you if he was on a D/P or even D/D build seems extremely high. You let it tick and didn’t hit your heal until you felt you “had too” which also seems like a strange decision to make.

At half hp, jumped by a competent thief, you will die (as a thief at least). That you survived with a scratch you felt comfortable letting continue to fester speaks more to your opponents lack of skill than anything.

Know what else is laughable? Your comparison to power builds.

I know very few power builds that will hit you for 4k on auto attack (excluding the rediculousness of hammer rev) without it being preceeded by 2 weaker hits which need to be landed. Some skills will do 4k and over but even my zerk warrior only has maybe 3 skills that will hit for 4k (excluding burst skills that is but +2 if you want to include them), 4 skills if you count headbutt though that got a sizable telegraph to it recently. It gets even worse when you really look at other classes too.

The DD evasion thief though, what’s the down time on its 4-6k hitting attacks? 30% sounds about right and then you add lotus training on for about 3k in between. All this while being in evade frames for long periods of time. Yes, a full dire thief with krait runes and caltrops will do about 3k damage from the dodge alone and that’s assuming we’re using the stationary value of torment and only 1 bleed stack from caltrops.

The uptime of evades, condition application as well as how frequently it is applied (every 1-2s) makes it do a lot more than power builds ever could do and they’re a lot easier kill most of the time as they generally won’t have 3k armour and 21k health with silly high evade frames.

You are mainly pointing to the evade frames. But the issue was his damage output not the build as a whole.

I personally think the evade spam is overtuned (along with the block spam etc).

As to 4K attacks…I see a lot of very close to 4k attacks if not in one hit then on the follow up hit half a second later. Power thief builds will erase 10k hp in 1.5 seconds if they are well built. The point stands that if he had been struck by a competent thief he would have died.

And you keep comparing instant damage to over time damage without any cleanse. The better comparison is damage over 10 seconds from both power and conditions with cleanse, the same over 30 seconds, and then over 1 minute. Each would probably be different outcomes in terms of which is better.

And here I thought they all died in between evade frames.

Condi in wvw is quite over the top right now with TB and Dire stats. Condi builds in pvp are way squishier and don’t do anywhere nearly as much damage.

yeah when i tried it its so dumb. you can permanantly dodge pretty much, and the times you can you can go invisible… the condition damage is ridiculous, luckily it gets boring after an hour or so, so this is the only reason not to play it. it really needs nerfing… this and condition necro spamming unblockable conditions are ruining wvw.,

Lakie.4510:

Condi in wvw is quite over the top right now with TB and Dire stats. Condi builds in pvp are way squishier and don’t do anywhere nearly as much damage.

Yeah I’m guilty of running trailblazer Necro and Mesmer when solo or small group roaming.

However I’ll agree that condition builds are much more forgiving, and offers way less counter-play then power builds. To the point in order to solo successful in a Thief/Condi Mesmer environment. You really need that fire and forget damage with that huge survival buffer. Or you will die, if at the same skill level or lower then that condi user.

Sure people are successful on power builds as well. However atm condi builds are so broken. That those players would fair 3 to 4 times as better swapping over to condi.

I can’t really say much for thief it self. As I rarely touch my Warrior and Thief. So that’s not my place. However condition damage in 1v1 to 4v4 even 5v5 on Mesmer, Ranger, Necromancer, and even Guardian. Are vastly easier and more skill less to play then their power equivalents, to have the same success rate, at the same skill level.

There is really barely in argument to be had here.

- Condi skills have short CDs compared to cleanses.

-Condi builds can spike people from 100 to 0 in mere seconds, if not instantly. While at the same time being DoT base.

-Condi Builds mostly just use 2 stats to be successful in burst damage, Condition damage, and Condition duration. Power mostly needs 3 stats to even hope to come close to the same damage. Thus allowing condition builds to stack in Dire and Trialblazer have the burst of a Berserker set of gear, yet be nearly as tanky as soliders gear.

- Cleanses are too few and have long CDs compared to Condi application.

All and all it’s ANet’s way of pretty much killing off the roamers in this game. Condition damage is way too forgiving to not play it if you want to go toe to toe with other condition builds in solo to small group play.

Condition damage META is even making it’s way to end game PvE and starting to push Power builds out of the META.

TL/DR : Condition builds in open world solo to small group unregulated PvP is outperforming power as a whole on all levels. Thus it is much much easier and safer to run then a full zerk build but does the same damage and nearly having the same survivability as Solders gear. In some case like condi mesmer have few superior survivability compared to power builds altogether.

Condi thief where? Zerk is everywhere

Mal.1670:

Condi thief where? Zerk is everywhere

Lots of condi theives in my matchup (I find there are lots in JQ as opposed to SBI but there are still a few there too).

i ran to 2 p/p thief i was suprized lol

I am still seeing more power thiefs. Been playing a few hours since I got home. Saw a few condition builds but none of them thiefs. Thiefs were all power.

I am not doubting the others observations. It interesting to speculate as to why these differences there. My opinion is that as the population climbs the more people use Conditions so as to allow them to better survive outnumbered situations.

saerni.2584:

You are mainly pointing to the evade frames. But the issue was his damage output not the build as a whole.

I personally think the evade spam is overtuned (along with the block spam etc).

As to 4K attacks…I see a lot of very close to 4k attacks if not in one hit then on the follow up hit half a second later. Power thief builds will erase 10k hp in 1.5 seconds if they are well built. The point stands that if he had been struck by a competent thief he would have died.

And you keep comparing instant damage to over time damage without any cleanse. The better comparison is damage over 10 seconds from both power and conditions with cleanse, the same over 30 seconds, and then over 1 minute. Each would probably be different outcomes in terms of which is better.

It’s all related though, most power builds can’t throw out attacks while in evade frames constantly like thief can in both power and condi builds. The outlier is thief, specifically daredevil.

4k auto attacks I rarely see on anything that isn’t full zerk with a considerable amount of might. I might see it as the final hit of the chain but it’s closer to 3k on crit. This is another crucial point, they generally have to crit to hit that high. I won’t lie and say power builds can’t instantly spike for a ton of damage, they can of 10-20k depending on how glassy they are and circumstances but the output of those builds drops to barely anything after that for 5-12s usually and need an opening for such damage which can be lowered in many ways.

Comparing damage over 30s is biased to power builds as the condition builds will keep ticking long after. Let’s say you get hit by 2 death blossoms, that’s 14k damage you will take from a dire/krait/agony sigil daredevil. Condition cleansing works on first in last out, you’re likely to also have cripple and possibly torment on you with the heels having occured first. So a 2 condition cleanse won’t work, you need a 3 or some mixture of cleansing.

Some build can just keep cleansing like warriors, eles, guards and some mesmer builds. Other builds might not be able to keep up with the cleansing and be forced to space them out every 5s or so or even worse rely on transfering back which brings us back to the evade frames. Put simply you’re unable to pressure the DD due to evade frames consistently (god help if you have a three way causing map wide lag) but there’s also many builds that will have to take various amounts of damage as they try to get rid of that bleed stack that is last to be cleansed.

Finally if you run out of cleanses you have to wait till the next one is up, some classes might have to wait 10-20s before this happens. It’s hard to make a comparison with power as you say it’s straight up damage but condition is DoT but you can’t simply say any damage you might take after 30s on DoTs is ignored. If you don’t have a cleanse for it then that damage matters and will kill you.

Permastealth thief, Condi thief, This thief, That thief.

It seems there is a theme running through all these OP builds. Can you spot the common element?

Svarty.8019:

Permastealth thief, Condi thief, This thief, That thief.

It seems there is a theme running through all these OP builds. Can you spot the common element?

yea, people whining because they die to them when they have little experience fighting them.