Guild Wars 2

Why would you create something so overly powerful in mass combat? You literally give one person the ability to kill 25 people in just a few casts with no option of counter play other than more Dragon Banners. Seriously, why would you put something like this into the game? What is the original intent? It completely ruins any fun you can have in mass WvW combat.

While I’m enjoying the hell out of all the banners, they are all way over powered. They need removed. It’s to the point now if your group isn’t running at least 1 banner you are not going to win, even with a much larger group. It will eventually be if you aren’t running all 3 banners at the same time, you will wipe.

Last night I was in sm, we saw the enemy Zerg getting ready to run thru north outer. I dropped dragon banner 5 on the portal and watched as the entire enemy Zerg explode as they came thru the portal. The Zerg was 60+, and we did hit the portal with a bomb, but no one made it thru the gate. That doesn’t happen with out the dragon banner. I gained an entire wvw level on that one wipe.

Dodge? Don’t have a banner of your own? Join a guild.

Hayzed.1507:

Dodge? Don’t have a banner of your own? Join a guild.

So you are agreeing with the op? He complains about main counter to a dragon banner is, get your own dragon banner. And your witty response is get your own banner?

At least we are all on the same page I suppose.

Wryscher.1432:

Hayzed.1507:

Dodge? Don’t have a banner of your own? Join a guild.

So you are agreeing with the op? He complains about main counter to a dragon banner is, get your own dragon banner. And your witty response is get your own banner?

At least we are all on the same page I suppose.

Is it OP? Sure but its not like you cant have one yourself, if dragon banner helps your 40man squad wreck a map blob then whats the harm in that?

I love the new expansion, WvW, and the game in general. So allow me to elaborate before there’s a misunderstanding:

While there are certainly some issues in WvW, these banners are simply an i-win button for a single person against (like Bearded said above) 50+ people. No single person should be granted that kind of power in a mass scale combat game. Isn’t the philosophy behind a fair WvW strategy supposed to be if, two opposing armies of equal sized players and power fought a battle, the team with better coordination and tactics would come out victorious? Not, who can dragon banner who first.

If I’m a commander and I rally my guild into a 30-man composition with specific classes and builds for each person (a massive amount of coordination), and I march my squad out there to EBG to take on an equally menacing looking army; only to be trollollolled wiped by a single person insta-casting a 25k ground based AoE that’s not even subject to the limits of traditional player cap. Why would I even bother to go back out there to fight them again? WvW would just turn into dragon banners dueling each other.

I mean, Bearded said it above, he single-handedly destroyed a 60+ man group by pressing 5. I’m sure it was fun for him though. So again I ask, what was the point of banners? Are you trying to kill the WvW population?

Hayzed.1507:

Wryscher.1432:

Hayzed.1507:

Dodge? Don’t have a banner of your own? Join a guild.

So you are agreeing with the op? He complains about main counter to a dragon banner is, get your own dragon banner. And your witty response is get your own banner?

At least we are all on the same page I suppose.

Is it OP? Sure but its not like you cant have one yourself, if dragon banner helps your 40man squad wreck a map blob then whats the harm in that?

Banner v Banner v Banner.

Sounds like a great game mode.

Mag was fighting DB last week. They like to “roam” with 20+ man groups each with at least one (if not 4-5 using an exploit) banners…. Remove from game or officially renounce support for WvW pls Anet…

We’re only seeing the beginning. Imagine when the amount of guilds having access to this increase a thousand fold and its use creep down to smaller groups.

Dawdler.8521:

We’re only seeing the beginning. Imagine when the amount of guilds having access to this increase a thousand fold and its use creep down to smaller groups.

Dragonbrand demonstrated to mag and sbi what it will be like, I’m pretty sure they put a banner in every tower they took.

How about just having a focus group of 2 guys to take down the banner?

Entenkommando.5208:

How about just having a focus group of 2 guys to take down the banner?

Imagine that

A focus group? Against a guy in the middle of the blob and a defiance bar? Anyone with half a brain will equip blinks, stealth and whatnot to prevent you focusing him with your imba 2 man focus group.

did i misssed something ? what this so called banner does actualy ???

These banners are redicilous and have no place in wvw. Put them down in the dragon stands map instead, one for each lane.

How much does a Dragon banner cost? If anyone knows the price for 1 banner, and the approximate price of the guild grind to be able to craft one. Is this P2W?

I think it’s more the fact that it’s another item that makes a strong group stronger.

Alloy.2839:

How much does a Dragon banner cost? If anyone knows the price for 1 banner, and the approximate price of the guild grind to be able to craft one. Is this P2W?

To get the upgrade your guild needs a fair bit of gold work;

• your aetherium capacity must be 10000 (mine level 2, with level 4 capacity upgrade)
• you need war room level 2
• you need camp, tower and keep claiming upgrades
• your guild needs to be level at least level 27 (so you probably need other unrelated upgrades as well)

The upgrade itself is pretty expensive as well, but compared to other upgrades it’s nothing special.

Once you have the upgrade, you need a level 300+ scribe however, which probably sets one back 500g+.

According to https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator making 1 dragon banner schematic costs ~3.5g at current prices, so once you have all the stuff above done, it’s pretty cheap to make.

sephiroth.4217:

Hayzed.1507:

Wryscher.1432:

Hayzed.1507:

Dodge? Don’t have a banner of your own? Join a guild.

So you are agreeing with the op? He complains about main counter to a dragon banner is, get your own dragon banner. And your witty response is get your own banner?

At least we are all on the same page I suppose.

Is it OP? Sure but its not like you cant have one yourself, if dragon banner helps your 40man squad wreck a map blob then whats the harm in that?

Banner v Banner v Banner.

Sounds like a great game mode.

Yep, couple guys with banners and the rest of us cannon fodder.
Then there’s the situations like your quote claims, where the reality is they spend a lot of time being used in small skirmishes to play a bit of god mode.

People complaining about banners, banners, and banners. Where it can be no problem if you theory crafted a counter where some have. But blob and ppt guilds to lazy at this day of age of WvW and complain about everything, already have people countering the banners, where wvw now its more skill base then your normal crappy staff 1 spam for loot mentality.

3x chronomancer + nat keep + 2 natural towers = dragon banner 5 every 10 seconds.

It’s pretty hard to lose fights since nobody can get within 2000 range of you without dying.

You can counter it without having it yourself in EB but the chokes are too long in DBLs and the windup time is way too short.

I mean, ok, sure, you can theorycraft a counter, but at the end of the day if a server is going to drop 3-5 banners then you’d better do the same.

I suggest a new upgrade.

“Instant kill all button”. (10 second cooldown). Activating the skill kills all powers and captures all enemy structures.

Guilds can make it by using 30 legenadries. (per use) This is perfectly fine, because it’s still dodgable with the orange mark. So as long as everyone adapts by dodging every 10 seconds, this will be fine. Failing that they can join a guild that can afford it.; This is also very expensive, so that should balance it out. Otherwise, stop being salty that you can’t join a rich guild.

While we’re at it, let’s put a guild upgrade that lets the game mode play itself and disallow non guild associated members from entering WvW.

I’m sorry, but the logic seen thus far to defend this can be used to pretty much justify anything. Which is of course what happens when you try to use a thing to justify itself.

None of these banners belong in WvW, they belong in PvE where players happily receive overpowered, ridiculous damage buffs. Give these banners to PvE players, you’ll make both PvE & WvW players happy. Win/win, imagine that…making both modes happy. Would Anet get it? Likely not, balance is completely whack at the moment in both WvW & PvP leagues.

They are mobile siege that you must use in the open field its a hell of a lot better then having AC spam behind walls maybe we can get ppl who do nothing but bunker out of hiding with these.
Any way its not hard to snip drivers it should be easier to snip ppl with banner i am not sure why ppl have not started to do this but i must say some classes do make banner “op” such as chron being able to stealth doable blink cdr on the skills and doable big shot. If you gurd or war has it it should be easy to take them down.

Jski.6180:

They are mobile siege that you must use in the open field its a hell of a lot better then having AC spam behind walls maybe we can get ppl who do nothing but bunker out of hiding with these.
Any way its not hard to snip drivers it should be easier to snip ppl with banner i am not sure why ppl have not started to do this but i must say some classes do make banner “op” such as chron being able to stealth doable blink cdr on the skills and doable big shot. If you gurd or war has it it should be easy to take them down.

Just a quick question, do you think this belong into WvW? There is already enough imbalance by class/population/coverage and in my opinion this banner idea is one of the most idiotic one ive seen being released. Unsure why you white knight this, or you love having cheesy things?

Synora.8974:

Why would you create something so overly powerful in mass combat? You literally give one person the ability to kill 25 people in just a few casts with no option of counter play other than more Dragon Banners. Seriously, why would you put something like this into the game? What is the original intent? It completely ruins any fun you can have in mass WvW combat.

Short answer…they have no clue thats why. They basically came up with a list of things they wanted to implement, decided not to properly test them, or balance them, or take player feedback into account, or consider the effect/consequences. Essentially throwing caution to the wind and mixing together all the garbage they added together into the current godawful mess wvw is now.

WvW is basically an ecosystem, everything works off each other. What anet did was introduce a bunch of new species into a fragile ecosystem and the result is chaos, same as it would be in any organic ecosystem.

Offair.2563:

Jski.6180:

They are mobile siege that you must use in the open field its a hell of a lot better then having AC spam behind walls maybe we can get ppl who do nothing but bunker out of hiding with these.
Any way its not hard to snip drivers it should be easier to snip ppl with banner i am not sure why ppl have not started to do this but i must say some classes do make banner “op” such as chron being able to stealth doable blink cdr on the skills and doable big shot. If you gurd or war has it it should be easy to take them down.

Just a quick question, do you think this belong into WvW? There is already enough imbalance by class/population/coverage and in my opinion this banner idea is one of the most idiotic one ive seen being released. Unsure why you white knight this, or you love having cheesy things?

There a hard number that a group can have only so many of these items so over all size of the group dose not changes the effectiveness of the banners. This means smaller groups and more of them should get more use out of banners then say super zerg guilds. To make it work you need team work between guilds and not just simply have every one in the same guild. Its a lot like the argument of removing aoe caps on dmg effects that is what dragon banners and most of the banners (i think) do for there effects.

All you brilliant people; what counter for this do you suggest for the 5-man havoc group that just finished building their catas only to have the siege 1-shot wiped out by that 1 guy with the dragon banner?

I’ve had plenty of people try to focus me. With the break bar, good luck trying to focus me down in a Zerg. Group heals plus my own heals I walk out of way more fights than I should. Especially with turtle banner and centaur banner. Delete them, or make them only useable in pve. Just get them out of wvw!

Anet should replace their current WvW team. They clearly have no clue about this game mode. Can hardly lift a finger to fix the lag issue + bugs, and adds on a ton of silly gimmicks instead. Nice going Anet. This game mode is so horrible now.

As I mentioned in another thread, add them to dragon’s stand, PVE, one in each lane. A player picks it up and uses it against the mobs.

No dev resources wasted Well, except the desert borderlands of course.

Alloy.2839:

How much does a Dragon banner cost? If anyone knows the price for 1 banner, and the approximate price of the guild grind to be able to craft one. Is this P2W?

It’s more than 5gold per banner atm.

Timelord.8190:

Anet should replace their current WvW team. They clearly have no clue about this game mode. Can hardly lift a finger to fix the lag issue + bugs, and adds on a ton of silly gimmicks instead. Nice going Anet. This game mode is so horrible now.

I vote we fire them entirely and they make me head of WvW design… I would start by reverting it back to 2013…

Stuff like this is why everyone snarks whenever Anet tells us that something good is coming for wvw.

Dragon banners are super fun! You can spawncamp a whole server with about 15 guys + dragonbanner while your main zerg goes wild on EB. You can win every three-way blob fight as long as you are the only one with access to dragon banner – and probably the other nasty stuff.

BTW the most awesome stuff I’ve ever seen with dragon banner: 5 guys with a dragon banner roaming around, chasing single players! <3

illenos.5134:

BTW the most awesome stuff I’ve ever seen with dragon banner: 5 guys with a dragon banner roaming around, chasing single players! <3

I’d like to see that with 3 banners though. It would be way more awesome.

Dawdler.8521:

illenos.5134:

BTW the most awesome stuff I’ve ever seen with dragon banner: 5 guys with a dragon banner roaming around, chasing single players! <3

I’d like to see that with 3 banners though. It would be way more awesome.

This would be the day when I smash my first keyboard, monitor whatever because of a game! xD

Having played around with all three banners… Dragon banner is op and needs to go. I don’t know if a nerf would even fix it, the concept of a high dps aoe banner is stupid and should never have been implemented. Turtle banner needs a nerf, but is conceptionally sound. Maybe if it could be adjusted so it’s less effective the more targets it’s used on to discourage blobbing then it could be really good. Centaur banner is just… Anyone crying over that is a fool, it’s gimicky with one decent skill that isn’t worth losing access to your weapon set for.

Entenkommando.5208:

How about just having a focus group of 2 guys to take down the banner?

I have a minstrels guardian that would really love to see you snipe his turtle banner with anything less than 8-10 players.

I’ve gone against a Dragon Banner group on multiple occasions, some we win some we lose but we don’t get ‘wiped out’ as you guys are putting it. I hate to give such a “generic” response but the fact is it is avoidable and it is beatable. You down the guy with the banner and he loses it, flip the structure with the tactic and they lose it, you see a long trail of rectangles get the hell out lol.

ArchonWing.9480:

I suggest a new upgrade.

“Instant kill all button”. (10 second cooldown). Activating the skill kills all powers and captures all enemy structures.

Guilds can make it by using 30 legenadries. (per use) This is perfectly fine, because it’s still dodgable with the orange mark. So as long as everyone adapts by dodging every 10 seconds, this will be fine. Failing that they can join a guild that can afford it.; This is also very expensive, so that should balance it out. Otherwise, stop being salty that you can’t join a rich guild.

While we’re at it, let’s put a guild upgrade that lets the game mode play itself and disallow non guild associated members from entering WvW.

I’m sorry, but the logic seen thus far to defend this can be used to pretty much justify anything. Which is of course what happens when you try to use a thing to justify itself.

Exactly! You can always justify anything if you want to but that you need to do so at all speak for itself. The arguments used so far to defend this BS are just sad if not surprising.

Gimmick Wars.

It’s clear they only want one pvp mode in GW2, and that’s their ‘e-sports’ spvp. Hence at every turn they throw in more gimmicks and pve (when not bringing in pve maps) in to wvw to drive the pvp players towards spvp.

But it doesn’t work, many are just heading for the exit instead.

These banners are a terrible idea for a pvp mode.

Thanks for the prices Crucifier and Sadrien.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ArchonWing.9480:

I suggest a new upgrade.

“Instant kill all button”. (10 second cooldown). Activating the skill kills all powers and captures all enemy structures.

Guilds can make it by using 30 legenadries. (per use) This is perfectly fine, because it’s still dodgable with the orange mark. So as long as everyone adapts by dodging every 10 seconds, this will be fine. Failing that they can join a guild that can afford it.; This is also very expensive, so that should balance it out. Otherwise, stop being salty that you can’t join a rich guild.

While we’re at it, let’s put a guild upgrade that lets the game mode play itself and disallow non guild associated members from entering WvW.

I’m sorry, but the logic seen thus far to defend this can be used to pretty much justify anything. Which is of course what happens when you try to use a thing to justify itself.

Exactly! You can always justify anything if you want to but that you need to do so at all speak for itself. The arguments used so far to defend this BS are just sad if not surprising.

Yea, it’s sort of a red herring.

For example.

“Why did you take my $5?”
“It’s okay, you can live without $5”
“But you shouldn’t take my money”
“What, are you too lazy to work? You can earn $5 in less than 20 minutes at your average job. Besides, you can deal with it.”

Another example is with heroics

“Heroics aren’t very time efficient!”
“You can farm them in pve!”

This is also disingenuous, because we already know you can farm them in pve. That’s not the point of the argument. If a road is broken, and a detour works, it doesn’t mean that road isn’t broken.

The problem is that we never even agreed with the initial premise in the first place.

It is irrelevant that there are counters to Dragon Banners or they cost a lot. There are many other elements about it that could be distasteful. If one is willing to ignore the context, then logically speaking, anything that is restricted by cost and has any form of counter is acceptable. An argument where everything is permissible isn’t really saying anything at all.

Which is seemingly how it’s going atm…

Simple solution: Banners are only usable when you have the outmanned buff.

Daddar.5971:

Simple solution: Banners are only usable when you have the outmanned buff.

You would think so, but Anet seems to love their blob guilds and the blobs would absolutely HATE that.
Of course, at this point most of their remaining customers are bloblings so there’s that.

Banners in general are a bad idea. Seriously, whoever is in charge of WvW at this point is completely clueless. At least they won’t be able to hide from the decline in players. Someone with a brain at ANET will notice at some point.

Esprit Dumort.3109:

I think it’s more the fact that it’s another item that makes a strong group stronger.

Quite the opposite, it makes fighting large groups easier. That doesn’t stop large groups from using it, but would you rather be 30 v 60 with no banners on each side, or 30 v 60 with 2 banners on each side? I’d say my chances are better with banners on each side.

Sadrien.3470:

Alloy.2839:

How much does a Dragon banner cost? If anyone knows the price for 1 banner, and the approximate price of the guild grind to be able to craft one. Is this P2W?

It’s more than 5gold per banner atm.

Quite a bit less than 5g actually. They’re very cheap. The money argument makes no sense to me, as people are willing to pay thousands of gold to upgrade their guild hall, but not a few gold to get an “op” banner?

Seriously, we are about to get our own vial of salt. Dragon banner issues ? Dodge left i guess? Aoe of 2 and 5 skill is really slow.

I’ve never had a problem with the dragon banner. Just dodge or move out of the fire, cleanse. No big deal. The centaur banner is much worse with the constant immobilizations. One uses up all your cleanses trying to move, in the meantime, you getting caught in the enemy “bomb.”