Guild Wars 2

Hello Anet!

When you created WvWvW, you probably envisioned that the two weaker realms would join together to topple the strongest (i.e. the self balancing system you talked about prerelease). But this isn’t happening. There are several reasons for this, but they all boil down to people taking the path of least resistance. It’s just easier to pick on the red team in Eternal Battlegrounds. For those that don’t know, the red team is always given to the realm with the lowest points at matchup. Green is given to the realm with the most points, while blue goes to second place.

Now what’s interesting is that the green team’s home area is the most defensible, while the red’s is the least defensible, and blue is in the middle.
Mendon’s Gap is completely exposed, and it’s the only tower I know of that doesn’t have a third floor.

Anzalias is vulnerable to siege on the vista hill, or below it if the there’s lot of treb cover from the red keep.

To capture Ogrewatch cut, all you have to do is a build a treb up in the harpy nesting ground and guard the choke point from defenders.

Veloka is the only bright spot. Defenders can put siege up on the rise above Velokas and rain hell down on besiegers. Plus, the red team can cover it from the keep.

And as for the red keep, it’s biggest weakness is the underground entrance near the mystic portal. It doesn’t get a cannon, and I don’t remember ever seeing oil down there before. Worst of all, it offers extremely good cover to besiegers. All you gotta do is put a catapult in the tunnel and bye bye gate.

The Green area, in comparison, is pretty solid.

Jennifer’s Slough are Aldon’s are both rocks. They both allow siege up on hard/impossible to hit spots for attackers. Curiously, the eastern wall of Jennifer’s Slough was made invulnerable at some point between the last patch and release. I remember smashing it down with catapults before, but now it’s not even targetable. The western wall is breakable, however , allowing green to recapture it with trivial effort, but more on that in a bit.

Klovan’s Gully and Wildcreek run are not all that great in and of themselves. They’re pretty average as far as layout goes. The problem is that it’s too easy to cover them from Jennifer’s Slough and the green keep. Which means it’s hard to capture, but very easy for green to recapture.

The green keep. Two problems with this place:

One is that the backdoor entrance, which all keeps have, is underwater. This mean no siege, and it means you have to hit it with crappy underwater weapons and utility. All the while, the green defenders above are killing you with impunity. Very stupid design.

Second, there’s this little gem:

!http://i45.tinypic.com/vmszs3.png!

There’s no way to hit trebs up there, but they can cover the entire swamp at that altitude. Which means that even if you take a green keep, they can just take it right back and there’s nothing you can do to stop it. It’s like sieging 1/3rd of the map from the spawn.

So what does all this mean? It means that it’s just that much easier to attack the red team instead of the green team. So people double up on third place, instead of first place. That defeats the whole purpose of the three sided match. There’s no self balancing system. It’s just face roll red team.

Please, at the very least, put some walls up at Mendon’s Gap or give it a third floor.

I’m on the NSP server and that puts me in the third place for our server rotation. I’ve been on Eternal more than anything else right now in the new rotation and, even granted all your points, I simply don’t see it as a problem. We can treb the crap out of SM and they can’t really stop us. We never really lost our foot hold on the map, though it is exceedingly difficult to push past SM.

I don’t know if that’s because we’re doing that well as a server comparatively, but I will say it’s very, very competitive right now and if the red team naturally had the hardest position then we wouldn’t be doing as well as we are. As it is, eternal is perhaps our strongest foot hold in the whole of our WvWvW rotation this week.

As well, blue and green crash into each other from time to time outside SM. It’s not often, but it is enough to mean that you have to choose your target. They flank like crazy up the sides of SM on the map and it causes red team to choose who they will fight, blue or green. But at the same time, if red has SM then blue and green have the same decision because the center of the map belongs to red. You can’t really work around it at that point. You have to choose who you hit.

The “balancing” issue I see is that once red has SM it turns into a meat grinder where no team can really advance. Any team that pushes out gets flanked hardcore by the other team. It’s a vicious rock, paper, scissor cycle that means no one can really control all of Eternal without cheese or night capping.

I find this to be completely wrong.

1. The Red Keep is arguably the most defensive keep there is. That underwater area is a death trap if people place Arrow Carts on the ramps (which can hit but can’t be hit). There’s no where to run and they can hit anything in range. Even if they do manage to hit it taking that inner gate is near impossible because there’s no where to back out to/from because there’s a giant cliff face and that’s it. This means you’re usually out your trebs/siege you have setup on the outer walls but Red should never lose their keep if they are defending even semi intelligently.

2. The Red Keep can easily setup siege (trebs) on it’s walls and hit Stonemist. This gives a huge tactical advantage when attacking Stonemist. There’s virtually no way to defend against this short of try to work down their siege manually (which usually turns into a death trap) for people trying to AOE that wall on the thin ledge).

3. Ogrewatch and Anzalias are the only “inner” tower on the map that can’t be hit by a Treb in Stonemist on one of the fingers. Quentin, Durious, Wildcreek and Klovan can all be hit by Trebs up on the third floor at Stonemist that can’t be counter trebbed/mortared.

4. If the mortar is setup at Ogrewatch it can reach/hit that upper Harpy area where people build Trebs. In fact Ogrewatch/Pangloss is one of best/easiest choke points on the map (but certainly not the only one) because you can camp/siege that whole area from the tower itself.

5. Rogue’s Quarry (Green) is one of the most nightmarish spots to have an enemy take. I’ve seen enemies take RQ and setup a huge amount of siege there that can’t be dealt with at all. This includes Trebs that will hit Aldons and Wildcreek with ZERO ability for the Green to hit/take it from their keep.

6. Golanta/Klovan are wide open with virtually no choke points what so ever. Even Blue’s side of this you have to run past their tower.

7. That hill with the Vista overlooking Anzalias can be Trebbed/Mortared from the Red Keep.

Red is setup with the most tactical advantages, blue second, and Green the least. That doesn’t mean Green is wide open and can be taken easily at any time nor does it imply that Red should never lose. I mean just because something exists, doesn’t mean people will take advantage of it or they will use it intelligently.

Kodiak.3281:

1. The Red Keep is arguably the most defensive keep there is. That underwater area is a death trap if people place Arrow Carts on the ramps (which can hit but can’t be hit). There’s no where to run and they can hit anything in range. Even if they do manage to hit it taking that inner gate is near impossible because there’s no where to back out to/from because there’s a giant cliff face and that’s it. This means you’re usually out your trebs/siege you have setup on the outer walls but Red should never lose their keep if they are defending even semi intelligently.

All of the arrow carts on the walkway above the mystic portal can be AE’d by rangers and elementalists. But again, you don’t even have to do that. You can put up a catapult in the tunnel and none of that defensive siege can touch it. But what usually happens if people drop 3 rams and break the door down before anyone realizes it. Then, yes, they come and wipe everything but the inner siege. Then they set up catapults on the walkway or rams on the door. It’s not easy to take. None of the keeps are, but it’s still easier to backdoor than the green keep.

2. The Red Keep can easily setup siege (trebs) on it’s walls and hit Stonemist. This gives a huge tactical advantage when attacking Stonemist. There’s virtually no way to defend against this short of try to work down their siege manually (which usually turns into a death trap) for people trying to AOE that wall on the thin ledge).

Any trebs that hit Stonemist from the redkeep can also be hit by trebs at SM. It depends on who has theirs up first. Also, all of those trebs on that wall in the red keep can be killed by one stupid ballista on the Vista rise. Plop it down in front of the trebs and start shooting. Takes but seconds to wipe them all out. Sadly, the range on the ballista isn’t far enough to reach Stonemist from the same hill.

3. Ogrewatch and Anzalias are the only “inner” tower on the map that can’t be hit by a Treb in Stonemist on one of the fingers. Quentin, Durious, Wildcreek and Klovan can all be hit by Trebs up on the third floor at Stonemist that can’t be counter trebbed/mortared.

I don’t know what you mean by fingers. The third level, up by the mystic forge? That sounds right. But you can still place a treb ontop any of the SM supply depots and hit the closet tower without fear of retaliation. But Stonemist is Stonemist. Any side that owns it is going to have an advantage. I’m comparing the ‘home lands’ of red and green, not Stonemist.

4. If the mortar is setup at Ogrewatch it can reach/hit that upper Harpy area where people build Trebs. In fact Ogrewatch/Pangloss is one of best/easiest choke points on the map (but certainly not the only one) because you can camp/siege that whole area from the tower itself.

Oh, no it can’t. I’ve tried, so, so many times. The mortar can fire a bit beyond the entryway/chokepoint, but it doesn’t go up into the nests, and it won’t hit the trebs up there unless people build them right at the edge. Which is stupid because those can be AE’d easily. And Pangloss is also the only siege camp in EB that can’t be covered by external siege. You can hit the mine entrances but not the people within. Not that it matters because supply camps are easy to flip.

5. Rogue’s Quarry (Green) is one of the most nightmarish spots to have an enemy take. I’ve seen enemies take RQ and setup a huge amount of siege there that can’t be dealt with at all. This includes Trebs that will hit Aldons and Wildcreek with ZERO ability for the Green to hit/take it from their keep.

You can cover RQ pretty well from wildcreek. A mortar or treb from the top floor will take care of any of that siege. Or, build a stupid treb in the green keep lighthouse. Those will hit RQ.

6. Golanta/Klovan are wide open with virtually no choke points what so ever. Even Blue’s side of this you have to run past their tower.

Throw stuff at them from Jennifer’s Slough. Problem solved.

7. That hill with the Vista overlooking Anzalias can be Trebbed/Mortared from the Red Keep.

Partially, yes. In that case, you can wipe out the trebs and mortars with a ballista, or simply place a catapult on the ground by the bridge and use the vista hill as a shield.

Red is setup with the most tactical advantages, blue second, and Green the least. That doesn’t mean Green is wide open and can be taken easily at any time nor does it imply that Red should never lose. I mean just because something exists, doesn’t mean people will take advantage of it or they will use it intelligently.

Green is definitely not wide open, the west half of the red is.

This is what EB looks like for me from every Monday to Friday afternoon:

1. Arrow carts can be set up on the stairs behind the door. They are hard to hit unless the enemy has a ballista, and an arrow cart should take out the ballista before that happens. And any arrow cart can make any ele or ranger trying to get close second guess their decision to stand in the AoE. If they have enough time to AoE down the cart, you are doing something wrong. So if you don’t notice the cross swords on your keep and do not think to look at the less obvious entrance, that is your fault for not defending correctly. Once you discover the enemies, they are easily dispersed with a single arrow cart, with a 30 sec time from spawn to the backdoor, to surround the enemy. (Yes, green keep has the best hidden attack point. I agree, and I hope Anet fixes this very soon. But if you have to use the secret point to even consider breaking in, chances are you are not going to take the keep anyways.) Blue keep also has a hidden backdoor that is set up in an even worse position than the redkeep. Try sneaking into red’s backdoor, and then try blue’s. Red def has the advantage.

2. No. You have people that are bad at placing. There are plenty of places that you can stick the trebs that are impossible to hit from SM. Trust me, we are being hit for hours at SM by red trebs up there. Any treb being set up in range can easily be trebbed by the redkeep trebs. Any siege setup on the vista side can also easily be taken out. Don’t blame your map for bad defense and scouting. If I never look to my left at the ranger shooting me, is it bad cameras because I didn’t look? And some trebs can even be placed out of range of a ballista at the vista. It can happen.

4. I have set up many a treb in that area. And there are plenty of ways to break the siege. First, any organized group can hold pangloss and run enough supplies from there to keep the tower up indefinitely. The hill to the right of the choke can be used to gain access into the camp, with the correctly placed jump. You can easily circle around and take out the siege from behind. (Happened many times) Most defenders do not expect an attack from behind, and can be easily cleared. And Pangloss is easily the easiest defended supply camp ever. If you lose it, shame on you. A dedicated 5-10 man team can hold off 30-40 people easily.
5. Well-placed defensive weapons are a lot harder to hit, unless they planned poorly and laid it all in one spot.
6. Same could be said for you. Any of your towers under attack, throw stuff at them from Keep. Problem Solved. Almost every red tower taken will instantly have trebs firing on them, preparing to take them back.
7. Back to poor defense. If you have no one at anzalias watching enemies file up to that ledge, sucks for you, you may lose some siege. if you can’t be bothered to watch key areas, then you can’t be bothered to think you will win.

Lastly, the western half of red is open mainly because of the mole NPC camp. I have ran through there and hit your camps countless times, never running into anyone. Us being green, we have people watching our supply camps. We report when we see people running past our towers. Time and time again, entire zergs run past Anzalias and meet no resistance. We run past a tower. And you are mad that you don’t see us? Once again, bad playing.

The biggest advantage green has is that we are very close together. That is pretty much it. But the minute we lose a tower, we are in huge trouble, because those towers can treb other towers and all our keeps. So our biggest advantage is also a weak point. Stop QQing and play the game.

I can we have a lot of green replies.

Tell me, why aren’t placements randomized instead of set. Why does red always go to the team with the least points and green with the most? If it’s not because they expected green to be on the defensive, rather than red, most of the time, tell me why. I’m very much interested in your reasoning that green does not have a terrain advantage, but that red does.

Just took these screen in my EB, what does your matchup look like?

http://i45.tinypic.com/2gxqn3l.png

http://i50.tinypic.com/909gqu.png

edit:

Yerffejy.6538:

Blue keep also has a hidden backdoor that is set up in an even worse position than the redkeep. Try sneaking into red’s backdoor, and then try blue’s. Red def has the advantage.

Say whaaat?

I risked my life to take some screens showing how untrue this is!

Behold, red keep backdoor:

http://i49.tinypic.com/10n6r87.png

http://i45.tinypic.com/2pq4bbq.png

http://i46.tinypic.com/29bfr6b.png

Blue Keep:

http://i47.tinypic.com/2i1oww6.png

http://i47.tinypic.com/2008aix.png

It could be that both JQ and ET are just terrible worlds with terrible players, and we’re just terrible at placing our stuff, and only rank 2 and 3 gamewide, or it could be that there are some serious disadvantages in reds layout compared to blue and green.

Yes, that may be what is happening in EB. But that’s maybe just because you had two servers hitting you at the same time, and both those servers are ranked higher than you.

Do not equate other servers being better to you having a disadvantage. The blue and green servers are ranked higher than you, and it is expected they will do better.

Redkeep screens:
1. Placing the catapult there can yes, cover you from above attacks. But guess what? That also puts you in a very vulnerable position from behind, and it is very close to red’s spawn point. AKA, you may get cover from the one arrow cart up there, but the enemy zerg is most likely going to take out said catapult within 2 seconds.
2. Maybe you were there are the wrong time. I believe it should have all the upgrades like other gates. Either you looked at the wrong time, or there is a bug, which should be fixed, obviously.
3. The carts can actually be placed even further back, and like I said earlier, if you let them get in range of your cart, shame on you. Any arrow cart can keep many foes at bay and punish any trying to get close.

Lastly, I was mainly discussing the sneakability of these 2 backdoors. Redkeep is extremely hard to sneak into back there, while blue keep has multiple ways in and better chances of successful sneaking. And that was my main point.

No, those are both good servers. And I have seen them make some good placements. There are times when the Red keep has trebs that are virtually impossible to take out unless you sneak very well and have luck, or you break down the first set of walls. And these trebs can hit the entirety of your map, with little to no chance of retaliation. Seems like a huge advantage to me.

Also, I have been in the top-tier matchup very often, and I see blue keep fall more often than red. Actually, I almost never see the red keep under invader hands. That should show you how defensive it really is.