Guild Wars 2

ConnorO.8613:

So after a few good discussion with friends and guildmates, I’ve come to the conclusion that the outnumbered buff was a great idea stemming from good intentions

Anet always has good intentions and they always backfire in ways that could have been foreseen. Not just the outnumbered buff but the way we earn pips did not break up zergs but makes servers zerg harder just like all their other attempts to do this. They have no idea about developing for a RvR mode.

I am just perplexed we have to farm pips for the leg backpack. I mean, compare it to pve and pvp?
Fractals: complete fractals with challenging conditions.
PvP: X wins, 3 plays a day, X wins with professions, etc
WvW: betray all your loved ones as you look for the outnumbered buff.

Why doesnt WvW have this system? I mean, i get the minimum timegate, but theres no effort, only timegate. Maybe they should have had a collection as well.
-contribute to tier 3 upgrade
-claim 50 camps
-kill 150 people
-earn 50 pips on 5 different professions
Etc, etc

Yes, honestly, they really should have implemented “additional” pip grants via “active wvw participation” :
——[X number of kills] e.g. 1 pip for every 10 distinct player killed with an ICD of 3min
(so at least damaging the enemy upon kill and not whoever did the killing blow)
——-[Capture of keeps, camps, towers] e.g. 1 pip awarded for a tower plus a camp captured; 1 pip for each keep captured
——-[X amount of damage via siege weapon, x amount of damage to infrastructure, etc…] e.g. 1 pip for every 25k ‘siege damage’ using siege weapons; 1 pip for every 15k normal damage to infrastructure (a.ka. not on siege weapon)

That way people actually get a sense of reward from their active play

Another suggestion is to either:
A. Reduce the number of tier levels and effectively, the number of pips required (currently 1450) for the weekly 175 tickets

B. Increase the number of weekly tickets from 175 to say, 350 while maintaining the current tiers.

C. Change the interval of time per tick from the current 5 min to 2.5min
—-In my opinion the first option is better, by reducing the number of pips
needed there would be less complaints of needing 5 full days at 1 pip per
tick a.k.a, no life-ing it, to gain the weekly amount. After all, I doubt
needing Anet should be promoting health hazards such as work-like
gaming for several days straight anyways. Here’s the forum of time
required if you don’t believe me: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6g33ji/here_is_the_time_you_need_to_get_wvw_skirmish/

My last suggestion would be to increase baseline pip from 0 (without inclusion of any ranks, commander status, world placement etc..) to 3. So at the bare minimum, everyone will at least have 4 pips per tick even if you’re starting at rank 0.

Remember these changes are to help get people to try WvW and not turn them away at the doorstep. People should be able to get their weekly tickets, if they put in a ‘reasonable’ amount of time, while at the same time making them feel that their active play is actually rewarding. At the same time it will incentivize afkers to actually play WvW.

I have personally been able to finish diamond track in past few weeks, but because I now have a vacation = this more to play. I also have high rank and I am often playing outnumbered (Desolation doesn’t have a link, but we are facing a linked server every week). I checked and found that the vast majority of my PIPs come from the rank and outnumbered.

I can imagine that for players who don’t have high rank or aren’t often getting outnumbered it is really a full time job or even more to finish diamond track in time.

The ticket requirements for the armor and weapon skins are unreasonable. Even as a WvWvW veteran with 4000+ hours in the game mode, I am not going to bother. Why to play full time for minimum 2 years to get cool looking armor skin, which is NOT even legendary. And minimum 2 weeks to get one mistforged exotic weapon skin (350 tickets + 250 memoirs of battle) is way too much. Make at least the skins ascended or double the rate of tickets per week!

I feel the current PIP rate is too slow and makes the game feel like a chore. Combine this with the recent changes to the decay timer, which make scouting a pain, unless you have a wall to repair (and endless supply).

I feel Arenanet is making typical game designer mistake: listening to a small loud elite minority, which doesn’t mind the grind. But trust me, most of us have family, job(s) and/or studies, we don’t need yet another full-time job.

I think Arenanet made a fundamental mistake by using yet another time gated currency, the skirmish tickets, instead of using the badges of honor and proofs of heroics. People could accumulate badges and heroics at their own speed and even small increments would eventually matter and none would be wasted (now for example if you start diamond track, but don’t finish it in time, you are getting 40 tickets less).

Well its been awhile, and I think we’ve seen that most new players have been deterred by the new system of pips. The low amount of pips gained by players of low wvw rank, is leading to players getting almost no tickets, (since ticket gain is a linear curve, as in all the tickets are in the end chests and almost none are in the starting ones) and hitting the weekly ticket cap is brutal.

Everyone knows that even wvw vets would be complaining if they had to play for 20-50+ hours per week to hit ticket cap, but they don’t, they can easily cruise to max rewards and decent ticket gain in a mere 7 hours per week. Its ridiculous that to go from +1 pips to +2 requires you to go from rank 150-620. 1 pip gained for 470 ranks. Thats a little ridiculous, and its effectively making new players quit in trying to obtain the rewards before they even try, which in turn encourages players to be discouraged and deliberately not play wvw.

Instead of drawing players in with rewards, which is what the purpose of these rewards are (not necessarily to reward wvw vets despite anet claiming that). The rewards are designed to be a carrot on a stick & a reward for vets, and they fail to satisfy in both areas. If anet wanted to reward vets, they would just give vets something, since they have already been playing for so long and shouldn’t have to grind anymore for rewards they have already “earned” and “deserve.”

Vets have to grind for these rewards, just like everyone else (which means its not really a reward for them), though not as hard as new players. The rewards are a carrot on a stick, for everyone, and they severely limit new players ability to earn anything, while still making vets grind for rewards they have already earned.

Im not even going to touch the fact that 2/3rds of the wvw population are on servers that don’t get rank 1 in skirmishes, further limiting their ability to gain pips, which this argument is tied to population imbalances which is a whole other problem, yet still related to pip gain.

So any chance we can reduce the number of pips required to rank up, or maybe up the amount of pips we get, its kind of ridiculous, and I certainly hope there aren’t anymore rewards structured like this in PoF.

Oh you again. I do agree that the base pips should be increase. Still not everyone is suppose to hit the weekly cap. I never felt that the pip update was suppose to draw in players but more of something to keep wvwer playing until A-net can focus more attention on fixing some of the problems in wvw.

Yea someone suggested awhile ago that wvw should be allowed to transform badges of honor into tickets. This would give players another way of getting ticket. The biggest issues I saw with that is that are its giving zergs an advantage over roamers for rewards. The players that upgrade tactics would not have alot of badges and it would give all high rank wvwers free high end gear.

I did a estimate before and it takes 9-10month to finish the wvw legendary backslot if you just started wvw today and only play 20hrs of wvw a week. This was assuming you are always on the worst server, never got outmanned or maxed out your pip track. I know player really want the armor since the stat swap was announced. Still 9-10month for 2800 tickets asuming 3hrs of wvw a day.

The amount of time a new player has to spend to get their weekly tickets is insane.

I’ve been WvWing on and off since launch and I’m only rank 400-something. And I get one extra pip? Are you serious? Tying the amount of pips one gains to such utterly absurd ranks was a total mistake. I probably do WvW even less than I did before this system was released merely because the new reward system is so freaking discouraging.

There should be NO extra pips for high ranks, let alone SEVEN. A new player shouldn’t be penalized solely for being new. I’m not even a new player and I’m still being bent over by this stupid system.

High rank wvwer are reward more for playing wvw more, this is not a penalty to new players. Its just that the high end rewards for new players are low in wvw. Wvw did not have a good reward system for the first 3year or so. That was when all of this high ranked wvwer were gaining their rank, not for gear or rewards but because wvw was fun. Thinking that everyone should get the same amount rewards when some have not put in the same amount of time into a gamemode is unfair. The problems with the pip system are the base pips, wanting other options to gain pips(maybe add a guild hall buff or a booster) and the outmanned buff.

Ulion.5476:

High rank wvwer are reward more for playing wvw more, this is not a penalty to new players. Its just that the high end rewards for new players are low in wvw. Wvw did not have a good reward system for the first 3year or so. That was when all of this high ranked wvwer were gaining their rank, not for gear or rewards but because wvw was fun. Thinking that everyone should get the same amount rewards when some have not put in the same amount of time into a gamemode is unfair. The problems with the pip system are the base pips, wanting other options to gain pips(maybe add a guild hall buff or a booster) and the outmanned buff.

Bull. A high rank plays for 10 hours and maxes their pips. A new player plays for 10 hours and doesn’t even get half way.

Veteran players should NOT earn more pips per hour simply because they played back when pips were not a thing. They should just be grateful they already meet the rank requirements to purchase any gear or items.

This kind of shortsighted favoritism isn’t going to encourage ANY new players to stay in the game mode.

Trakarg.2095:

Bull. A high rank plays for 10 hours and maxes their pips. A new player plays for 10 hours and doesn’t even get half way.

Veteran players should NOT earn more pips per hour simply because they played back when pips were not a thing. They should just be grateful they already meet the rank requirements to purchase any gear or items.

This kind of shortsighted favoritism isn’t going to encourage ANY new players to stay in the game mode.

There is nothing preventing you from reaching the pip rate of a veteran player than the amount of time that you invest in the mode.

God forbid the players who kept the game mode alive get some kind of reward for it. And it’s not even an exclusive reward- you can rank up as well.

Trakarg.2095:

~snip

If I can not have it no one should :P. After you play a game long enough you get burnout or bored of it. How long have those high rank wvw been playing wvw? How many players are high rank? I am one of the high rank wvw(top ~2%) and it takes ~20hrs to finish the reward track. Hell I even stopped play wvw for a year but I am still in the top wvw ranks. That amount of player that can finish the reward track is 10hr is very small.

The player that are only playing wvw for the rewards and do not like it should just quit and do something they consider fun. I do not believe the pip system was meant to draw in more players but reward the dedicated players. It will keep them here for awhile hopefully long enough for A-net change/fix some of the issue with wvw.

Wvw needs more players but if the players are not enjoying themselves why continue to play? I know alot of player really want those wvw rewards but they are just skins. Their are other ways to get ascended gear.

Ulion.5476:

Trakarg.2095:

~snip

If I can not have it no one should :P. After you play a game long enough you get burnout or bored of it. How long have those high rank wvw been playing wvw? How many players are high rank? I am one of the high rank wvw(top ~2%) and it takes ~20hrs to finish the reward track. Hell I even stopped play wvw for a year but I am still in the top wvw ranks. That amount of player that can finish the reward track is 10hr is very small.

The player that are only playing wvw for the rewards and do not like it should just quit and do something they consider fun. I do not believe the pip system was meant to draw in more players but reward the dedicated players. It will keep them here for awhile hopefully long enough for A-net change/fix some of the issue with wvw.

Wvw needs more players but if the players are not enjoying themselves why continue to play? I know alot of player really want those wvw rewards but they are just skins. Their are other ways to get ascended gear.

I’m doing it just for rewards, and 90% of the time it’s not fun, since most wvw is fairly inactive. The low pip gain makes getting the rewards even more boring and something I do not look forward too.

Too many currencies….
Every new update comes with more kitten currencies, and renders previous currencies useless. All this kitten about time based pips, could have been avoided by using old currencies.
We should only ever need 2 to 4.
Its beyond ridiculous

Idk, I agree it’s gotten a little silly, but I don’t really like the idea of stockpiling one or two currencies and insta-buying everything on release day either. Another simple problem without a simple solution . . .

I understand and agree with your point however, if there was a controlled release of new content rather than the famine that comes with rewarding players in wvw, there would be no issue, as your rewarding for retrospective commitment on a regular basis.
All other games I’ve played do this. Seasoned rewards for eg.
ANET have made a rod for their own back and it’s only getting worse as they introduce new currency.

I see both points. I’m not an expert on the game’s economics.
That being said though, a thought that crossed my mind is the the idea to add an actual ‘bank’ to the game.
That is to say a place where one can exchange currencies at a reduced rate (say 4->1, maybe 3->1 if you have a specific mastery), perhaps only if they’ve unlocked a completion achievement associated with the map of that particular currency’s origin. You know. Settlers of Catan style.
That way you’re still required to do the content involved with the currency, but on the flipside assuming you’ve done the content there’s some flexibility for utilizing other currencies that’ve just sat in your bank collecting dust for years.

Wait. This is a thread about wvw pips. Probably not the best place to post that sort of idea.

~ Kovu

welp I think I’ll throw some stuff from myself – as a little bit more casual of WvW Players I do not mind people who have invested more time in wvw in the past to get more stuffs.

however it is not right when I am required to have perfect server performance and somehow manage to get outnumbered bonus and overally rip my veins off in effort to get just about same thing as someone who have spend a “liitle” bit more time in a mode gains… by default for just being there and making sure his participation bar does not get too low.

EDIT: I do not mind not hitting the cap as well – although seeing the guy hitting the cap with exacly same amount of effort that for you does not even gets you to the half of is a little bit… disheartening when you think about it.

at the moment it takes me almost all week of active play to finish the wooden chest. I get 1 pip per 5 minutes, and another pip if I finished wood last week.
sometimes when I’m extremely lucky I can finish the second chest, but thats almost a snowy christmas in the netherlands kind of rare.

It’ll be almost a year before I hit rank 150 when I start earning another +1 pip, given I get 1 rank a day, if I follow a commander for 2-3 hours

The bar for newer players should be set lower. I definitely agree with the above poster. The differential shouldn’t be so great. My average tick is about 7 pips — that seems fair for the current system. People shouldn’t be getting 10+ every tick regardless of their rank and people who participate shouldn’t be getting <4.

~ Kovu

also I think it is kind of shame that commitment bonus caps out at +1 on wood.
could be a nice thing to promote active participation over longer periods of time with additional pips for reaching completing higher tiers – so the commitment bonus from previous week could for example allow one to reach higher in next week giving one better bonus for the next week allowing to get higher etc. not sure what the numbers and cap should be to balance it out properly thou

Hum I calculated it before, if you play 2-3hour a day it will take 9-10months to get 2800 tickets. This is assuming you are new 0 wxp, on the worst server, never get outmanned, never finish the diamond chest and averaging 1.5 wxp levels an hr. By the time you finish you should be close to gold invader. 1.5 wxp per hour is what most players I talked to normally get in wvw.

Playing ~20hrs of wvw a week. After one week gain the loyalty pip. 6 weeks of play to hit bronze, 5months to hit silver, so 9-10month to get 2800 tickets (you will be close to gold rank). If you are maxing the reward track weekly, it takes 4months to get 2800. It take awhile to figure out but the formula easy enough to calculate once you know the amount of pips needed per chest and the weekly gain of pips.

That is kind of why I want the base pips to increase and some cosmic seige/tactic items for tickets. The casual player does not spend alot of time in gw2 maybe 90min a day. The high end reward for wvw are really focused on the older wvwers. Still wvw has 4 sets of rewards now: pip system, wxp level up, dungeon tracks, and enemy loot.

Trejgon that is a very good idea. a steadily increase loyalty bonus. Increasing the loyalty pip by 1 if you increase chest you got the previous week. This kind of loyal bonus should be capped at 4-5. It would encourage playing for that bonus.

Ulion.5476:

1.5 wxp levels an hr. By the time you finish you should be close to gold invader. 1.5 wxp per hour is what most players I talked to normally get in wvw.

and here I am, being happy when I manage to average 1.5 WXP levels a day xD

I mostly roam and that is what I normally get. If you are the dominate zerg or on a K-train map you can get more. Also, their is the 10% wxp guild buff it seems like a small buff but over the week it adds up.

My feedback on pips:

• I’m OK with high ranked players earning more pips – they’ve put in the time already and deserve the rewards faster OR you can remove the permanent buff and give them a one time bonus of say 2 or 3 tickets per rank as a reward for all the years they’ve gone (relatively) unrewarded.
• Making later chests (Mithril, Diamond) reward significantly more pips than early chests (Wood) is a bad idea. It makes everyone stressed about getting Diamond completed. Distribution of tickets should be even at each level to avoid encouraging binge gaming.
• Time gating pips is demotivating if you have finished Diamond, diminishing returns is a better solution – you should allow dedicated players to keep earning tickets even if the amounts are diminished. I feel robbed when I level up 6 extra diamond chests and get zero.
• Pip tick rates are too low. Players should be able to Diamond with 2 hours per day. Right now it is more like 4 hours per day. I’m sure Arenanet doesn’t want to encourage unhealthy hours of game play and promote MMO addiction but the current reward structure seems to encourage this. I think 2 hours per day to get the main block of tickets — plus diminishing return tickets for everyone else that plays longer than this. I admit I probably play a bit too much and will always get my Diamond but I feel sorry for the more casual players not being able to get their tickets.
• The outnumbered mechanic is very over powered. It is now common for people to whisper me with “[Outnumbered]” and then I hop over and collect 12 pip ticks. I don’t go there to help out anyone, I simply go there to collect pips. The delay in rewarding outnumbered pips doesn’t matter. We just rotate between whatever camps are available to keep our participation up. Basically you’ll find 5 people standing around at a camp with 3 minutes RI waiting to cap it for participation rather than “playing properly” (taking objectives).

For me overall, the rewards (skins) are a great idea but the reward system needs some tweaking. At the moment, the tickets have changed WvW to make everyone primarily interested in gathering tickets rather than playing WvW. I’d prefer to see the tickets come early and easily so people don’t have to be so stressed/focused on gaming the system. Removing the time gating and adding a diminishing return of tickets would encourage further motivation play for those that have collected all the chests. In order to discourage gaming the system the outnumbered buff should not be so strong.

TL;DR – high rank rewards good, outnumbered too strong, time gating bad, back ending rewards bad. Minor tweaks could transform the system for the better.

Pips and chests were introduced for the same exact reason that there are so many clickable chests within chests within chests that ultimately just give you a green and some account-bound mats; taking advantage of the way the brain perceives reward.

WvW was not being correctly marketed as a mode with a sufficient number of things for players to click on/numbers getting bigger.

Now we are supposed to feel like we are getting lots and lots of rewards (many pip much excite) when ultimately the chest rewards themselves are not particularly exciting. The sensations of numbers getting bigger, stakes getting higher, and lots of chests being clicked is what they are going for.

The high number of pips to ‘reward’ the vets is really just to give vets who are already playing some tickets faster so they feel more prestigious than the new players. Keeping new players’ pips low is part of the strategy. It encourages new players to put in crazy hours to chase the extra rank pip and/or grind out those tickets to get to where the vet players are.

This has all been carefully engineered, not to make anyone feel special or rewarded, but to keep players playing.

Mind you, I don’t care; I think WvW is fun, and I’ll keep playing as long as I think it is fun. The rewards keep me from feeling that I am ‘wasting’ lootmaking time, which is great.

But the current pip reward system is definitely made to take advantage of the brain mechanics that keep humans addicted, as opposed to the good of the game mode, whatever that is.

I don’t care, as long as there are also features designed to make the strategy part fun, as opposed to just encouraging us to grind because we can’t help ourselves. Take advantage of our brains to keep the game running, but please also make this more than a slow drip of false reward (i.e. please keep adding legitimate tactics-based updates), or people will just pick something else to do that doesn’t feel as shallow.

EDIT – Note I am not saying chests should have better reward drops, necessarily. I understand the problem of inflation and the need to keep a balance between rewarding players for their time and crashing the economy. But adding ‘achievement’ measures like pips are a way to do this. Don’t take the pips too seriously. Just have fun.

the only thing i dislike is the timegated aspect of it. if anything, just give us a diminishing return after diamond or something.