Guild Wars 2

DevonCarver.5370:

Oroibahazopi.9074:

Will be the only sizeable amount of achievement points I can get at them moment since the WvW ones give hardly any ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Srsly if you add PvE components to this WvW meta achievement it will be a joke.

I didn’t say PvE components, I said that they will function like the Living World achievements. They will be WvW specific and much like the achievements you see already, except actually reachable in 7 weeks. As to the total number of points, it will be hundreds, nothing like the achievements currently in place.

Can we get all achievement points without becoming first in the season? Otherwise I will have to transfer servers to being able to keep competing in the achievement point leaderboard.

I guess we’ll have to wait and see but I’m doubting the rewards for this league are going to be great enough that droves of people are going to throw down approximately 70ish gold for a transfer. Or even less likely, 140ish gold or approximately the retail price of the game itself for a transfer there and then back to the original server. I’m sure there will be some, but I bet it isn’t going to be the mass exodus some are predicting here on the forums.

bradderzh.2378:

How could that even be regulated? How can you define participation? Is logging in to do a daily sentry slayer achievement and then running off to 1spam a dragon wvw participation? Is using wvw as a means to get back to lions arch without paying waypoint costs wvw participation? Is jumping on your borderlands to get quick access to a craftingstation/bank/trading post wvw participation? Or how about karma training all the pve events?

It seems like it would be far to difficult to regulate or even calculate… If I am throwing gold into upgrading our keeps I don’t want ‘mr wvw for daily achievement’ to get the same rewards as me AND then go on to farm 10-20x the amount of gold us true wvw’s can make…

Sure wvw is fun, but I want cool shineys too…

The achievements will probably have more to do with taking/defending objectives (camps, towers, etc.) and killing enemies (players, dolyaks, etc.). Hopefully, the meta-achievement is designed so that even if someone just comes to WvW the bare minimum to get the final reward they’ll still have contributed enough to deserve it.

DevonCarver.5370:

Rieselle.5079:

3. The player must meet some form of minimum activity requirement or lose his registration for that season. (we can discuss what constitutes activity worthy of receiving the reward i guess.)

The season long reward will require you to complete the WvW season meta achievement. Which behaves much like the Living World achievements. The server for which you receive rewards will be the 1st server you log in on once the season starts. Any transfers after that will not change your rewards.

This is good and it works just fine. Although, I think an “Activity Score” would be better. Basically, based on the amount of WvW activities you participate in(killing people, taking camps, building siege, defending keeps, ect) and the time you spend WvWing you get some kind of score. That score would then be used to determine your reward.

DevonCarver.5370:

Walabone.6713:

I hope you take into consideration adding achievements that encourage zergs to disperse. Lets not have another WvExp situation.

Although, all in all, I’m not enthusiastic about this new system. I fail to understand the concept of “competition” that you hope to instill, when the playing field is inherently unbalanced. Numbers win everything. How is that a fair competition?

At no point did I, or would I have, said “Fair competition” WvW is not intended to be “fair”. There are servers with more people, there are servers with better organizations and that will always be the case. This competition will be about showing how your world can do over a defined period of time, against a variety of opponents. SPvP is the part of our game that aims for a completely level playing field. WvW would never be able to match that goal.

No, you haven’t ever said that, nor did I claim that you said that. And in fact, THAT’S THE POINT! WvW is not fair, as you have now admitted. On a server-by-server basis, WvW rewards population imbalance and off-hours coverage. YET, you have proposed introducing a competitive league, which would imply some sort level playing field where everyone has a shot of participating and winning. Thus this new league is a paradox.

My concern, and I think I can speak for a lot of players, is that the little guy is being left behind. Most of us greatly enjoy the servers we are currently on because we don’t enjoys Queue times and 100 man zergs – not to mention the community bonds we have formed. But you’ve essentially encouraged this behavior in your other posts by suggesting that if players want to win they should transfer – which smacks of a money grab, but that’s a different discussion. But what of those of us who don’t want to transfer? By all accounts it seems like we are getting left in the dust.

Now I understand there are probably a lot of things still left to be implemented and fleshed out as you approach the implementation date, but I urge you to consider ways for the lower ranked servers to still “win”. Not just as individuals on a server, but servers as a whole. Perhaps some sort of handicap? Something that gives us incentive to fight even if we’re matched against much bigger servers every week?

I greatly fear that this league will utterly gut many of the servers and rip apart communities. I’m not sure that’s the outcome you wish to accomplish. I look forward to hearing more about how my server can succeed in this league even though it doesn’t have the population or coverage to even begin to compete against the higher ranked servers.

DevonCarver.5370:

Moon.6371:

What do I have to do in order to get my question concerning obvious transfer abuse answered?

Will there be anything implemented (such as weighted league points, server (il-)loyalty debuffs, intraleague server locks or similar) that prevents people flooding the probable winner of the league during the first week, then transfering back to the home server (within the same league) and benefitting from abuse?

When I have an answer to give you, I will give it. That’s just the way it goes.

Before the game launched, it was said that transfers between servers would lock you out of WvW for 2 weeks. Is that still possible to do?

Theftwind.8976:

Just thinking here. The issue you are going to see with transfers will not be people moving up to a Gold tier server but people jumping to the top server in their tier to assure a first place win. Inter-league transfers will be the killer. For example using the bottom 6 servers now as one NA league:

SF
GoM
ET
FC
DR
AR

How will it help the lower ranked servers if large groups from those servers decide to jump to Sorrow’s Furnace prior to the start of a season? If that happens the lowest place server in that league will just get stomped while SF will be guaranteed a first place finish. They will not be able to hold onto a camp much less any major objective. We already see that when a server is up against another 4 or 5 steps up in the tiers.

Then just prior to the start of the next season people will hedge their bets and again transfer to the predicted top server in their league. It is easy to go to sites such as mos millenium or gw2score to find out the predicted rankings.

Also I think that some servers don;t currently belong in their league. Some just had bad luck with their match ups and dropped down or went way up. And they could do serious stomping or get stomped. I hope Anet takes a serous look and determines where servers belong rather then just relying on how things are at the time.

Honestly Devon if this is how Anet thinks for GW2 WvW it will jsut kill the scene.. Try not to make more spvp kitten in wvw. And noone will stay in lower tiers this is how people mentality is. So you will ruin servers like SFR and it guild comunity with massive kitten transfers again… You did it 6 month ago with free transfers to medium now you do it again. If your point is to create lag blob wars and under siege hiding going for the ticks not the fun you are doing it mate honestly.
Last few updates are such a kitten,pve content ok but lag in wvw is getting worse from 60-70 fps we go down to 20-30? and you still promote blobing and say that if you blob 24/7 it is for the best of your server. Wake up get to top servers in eu speak with us the players and what the meta is. From your streams we can see that you as developers dont know anything for the meta and ect. I wonder where you play and test your updates? In your dreams or what…. honestly at first I was ok new guy maybe some good things and now.. From worse to worse…. if you lose the hardcore wvw players/pvp you will let wvw die casuals come for leeching if they cant leech they will go to world events live story dragons and kitten…

GG for killing wvw slowly give us gvg and guild halls so game live to its billing and then kill WvW. if not a lot of new names on the map with pvp systems which offer something ….

Some sort of handicap system will definitely be needed for this not to end up in a huge mess.

I’m betting on a huge mess!

I’d gladly take over the league system for PVP. We would have no issues taking it over from you guys…

But hey, we’re just an aftertought.

Walabone.6713:

DevonCarver.5370:

Walabone.6713:

I hope you take into consideration adding achievements that encourage zergs to disperse. Lets not have another WvExp situation.

Although, all in all, I’m not enthusiastic about this new system. I fail to understand the concept of “competition” that you hope to instill, when the playing field is inherently unbalanced. Numbers win everything. How is that a fair competition?

At no point did I, or would I have, said “Fair competition” WvW is not intended to be “fair”. There are servers with more people, there are servers with better organizations and that will always be the case. This competition will be about showing how your world can do over a defined period of time, against a variety of opponents. SPvP is the part of our game that aims for a completely level playing field. WvW would never be able to match that goal.

No, you haven’t ever said that, nor did I claim that you said that. And in fact, THAT’S THE POINT! WvW is not fair, as you have now admitted. On a server-by-server basis, WvW rewards population imbalance and off-hours coverage. YET, you have proposed introducing a competitive league, which would imply some sort level playing field where everyone has a shot of participating and winning. Thus this new league is a paradox.

My concern, and I think I can speak for a lot of players, is that the little guy is being left behind. Most of us greatly enjoy the servers we are currently on because we don’t enjoys Queue times and 100 man zergs – not to mention the community bonds we have formed. But you’ve essentially encouraged this behavior in your other posts by suggesting that if players want to win they should transfer – which smacks of a money grab, but that’s a different discussion. But what of those of us who don’t want to transfer? By all accounts it seems like we are getting left in the dust.

Now I understand there are probably a lot of things still left to be implemented and fleshed out as you approach the implementation date, but I urge you to consider ways for the lower ranked servers to still “win”. Not just as individuals on a server, but servers as a whole. Perhaps some sort of handicap? Something that gives us incentive to fight even if we’re matched against much bigger servers every week?

I greatly fear that this league will utterly gut many of the servers and rip apart communities. I’m not sure that’s the outcome you wish to accomplish. I look forward to hearing more about how my server can succeed in this league even though it doesn’t have the population or coverage to even begin to compete against the higher ranked servers.

To add to this. I think it speaks volumes when the first impression I get when I initially see the announcement is “… My server does not stand a chance.” Looking at LA and WvW map chats, there’s zero chatter about the feature. People either don’t know about it or don’t care about it. If this is not the definition of failure, I do not know what is. If it is supposed to drive excitement towards WvW and rile up potential new participants, it has utterly failed, and failed before it has even begun.

If they had made a competitive league for sPvP it would make sense and I think a lot of people, even people who do not intent to join, could find it an enjoyable experience to ride the hype train and spectate, or even to bet on the matches. WvW is different.

The outcome of WvW matches are determined before the matches start. It’s basically just telling server X “Hey, kudos to you for staying together, because your server comprised of the majority of WvWers, here’s a nice badge to show off to the other peasants.”

Guess what people are gonna do to stay with the “cool crowd?”

Well, I assume, the original idea was just to reintroduce brackets, because the randomness of the current matchmaking is causing lots of trouble.

Since going backwards is not going to sell very well (to both, boss and players), someone came up with the idea to tie these new brackets to something what they think every player wants. Give them shiny stuff and sense of accomplishment, they will love it! But it needs to have a fresh name, i mean, since we are inventing something new, let`s call it “league”!

Job done: WvW department happy – new milestone created, solved matchmaking problem without being forced to just redo brackets; boss happy – new milestone created, big league announcement (it`s rolling) instead of just having to announce a reversal of the current matchmaking; players happy – newly tiered matchmaking with less randomness and shiny new stuff.

The rest is just…. finetuning!

A league solely based on population? Come on guys, it`s just a name for the new brackets to make them and you feel better and to give something to the crowds who cry since day 1 for not being rewarded sufficiently for their great achievement of playing on a highly populated server.

Best regards

DevonCarver.5370:

Oroibahazopi.9074:

Oh it’s gets better, so this “league” is actually a glorified achievement. I can’t wait to see what lovely objectives there will be on the checklist. Kill the grub 100 times, kill the centaurs 100 times etc etc.

We’ve actually just recently added the tech to add an achievement for complaining on the forums.

This comment almost made me spit out spaghetti….

On another note, if you look at the top 3 servers compared to those below, there is such a large population/coverage different between even rank 3 and 4. How will the leagues be formed such that one server doesn’t get massively stacked and reap all the great rewards, leaving the lower ranked servers in that league basically unable to do much? Since much of winning in WvW is population coverage, if you give people rewards for being on the top server and getting in a blob, is there anything being done to make it so that the same server continuously gets all the rewards mainly because they stacked population?

Rieselle.5079:

As a final point, if we want to balance the servers out more, then an additional feature:
4. All servers will receive rewards at the end of the season, proportional to their final rank. However, the rewards are divided evenly between registered players. A player on a low population server that comes 4th may get a much larger prize than someone on a high pop server that comes first. Servers that achieve success in spite of their low registered population will be the most rewarding, even if they don’t win.
Registered number of players is published for each server.

I think this is a really important idea as some way for this to not cause problems, worth the effort to implement for sure IMHO.

So, I am hearing that if I want to get some kind of reward at all I should leave Anvil Rock as we don’t, and won’t anytime soon, have the numbers to compete against even anyone. I guess that server will just die off of WvW…time to shop around for a lower-mid-tier server that has some life.

DevonCarver.5370:

Oren.1736:

Community concern is that incentives will be high enough to draw players to transfer up the tiers, killing even more low tier servers, over filling silver tiers with players and so forth for gold. Can you comment on any plans to address community size issues?

I can’t comment at this time as we haven’t finalized anything. In addition, you should look at it this way, if people flee lower league servers to get into the top leagues, it opens the opportunity for people to move to those lower leagues and finish 1st or 2nd, rather than being in the top league and finishing 6th or 7th. The rewards for finishing 2nd in the Bronze League will be markedly better than the rewards for finishing 6th in the Gold league.

1) that opportunity has always been open, and noone ever took advantage of it. practically noone is spending their hard earned money or their hard farmed gold->gems to go to lower tiers

2) absolutly noone is going to move to a server that has the slighest chance to end up 6th or 7th. everybody will go for the sure bets, e.x: Vizunah and SFR

stop with the nonsenses please. either you recognize the issue, or you dont, but dont take us for fools

obviously we wouldnt be discussing this, had ANet designed an interesting, challeging WvWvW from the start instead this utter zergfest skilllagfest, or failing that, had you simply stopped doing constant changes pushing further the gameplay in that moronic direction, making figthing zergs increasingly harder, and joining zergs increasingly benefitial.

just admit this is a pretty obvious plot to milk people’s money transferring to Vizunah/SFR and back again. because thats all it is, nothing else

what anet is depending on is the disincentive provided by queues to get large, organized guilds to transfer down to unpopulated servers.

it didnt work when transfers were free and the game was new and everyone wanted to play. why will it work now?

in other words, yes, you should probably leave low ranked servers and hope that the more organized guilds in high ranked servers stay put because betting that theyll transfer down has a history of being a wasted bet.

The rewards for finishing 2nd in the Bronze League will be markedly better than the rewards for finishing 6th in the Gold league.

I really like this.

Depending on how good the rewards are and what you need to do to get them, it will be an incentive to move some from higher to lower tiers.

Better rewards for being on SBI than on DB? If you are tired of DB this might be the reason to move.

More likely those higher tier people who are most focussed on WvW are the ones who are going to shift. Which will even out the match-ups for those on servers like Mag and SoS and Ebay etc who will never move and who will be facing upper tier people.

DevonCarver.5370:

Oren.1736:

Community concern is that incentives will be high enough to draw players to transfer up the tiers, killing even more low tier servers, over filling silver tiers with players and so forth for gold. Can you comment on any plans to address community size issues?

I can’t comment at this time as we haven’t finalized anything. In addition, you should look at it this way, if people flee lower league servers to get into the top leagues, it opens the opportunity for people to move to those lower leagues and finish 1st or 2nd, rather than being in the top league and finishing 6th or 7th. The rewards for finishing 2nd in the Bronze League will be markedly better than the rewards for finishing 6th in the Gold league.

ahah, in that case i would suspect servers from the top league would purposely lose weeks prior to the update, in a hope that they will get into the lower league, so that they can win in the lower league, rather than losing every weeks in the top league…

have your team thought about that ?

DevonCarver.5370:

At no point did I, or would I have, said “Fair competition” WvW is not intended to be “fair”. There are servers with more people.

So what is the point in pretending its competitive in the first place then? I fail to see the point of league play if the teams are known to be unbalanced from the start?

DevonCarver.5370:

Rieselle.5079:

3. The player must meet some form of minimum activity requirement or lose his registration for that season. (we can discuss what constitutes activity worthy of receiving the reward i guess.)

The season long reward will require you to complete the WvW season meta achievement. Which behaves much like the Living World achievements. The server for which you receive rewards will be the 1st server you log in on once the season starts. Any transfers after that will not change your rewards.

When does the season start and when can we see what servers are in each league?

azizul.8469:

ahah, in that case i would suspect servers from the top league would purposely lose weeks prior to the update, in a hope that they will get into the lower league, so that they can win in the lower league, rather than losing every weeks in the top league…

have your team thought about that ?

Have they thought of anything?

Without balanced servers, its impossible for WvW to be competetive. Its really quite simple:

- The most populated servers will win because of PvErs when the other servers are low on population. Just cap everything in sight without ever engaging players. This is the only argument from ANET I understand – give all PvE players the reward as well, its fair.

- Then comes the sandwiched servers which stand no chance against the coverage of high pop servers, yet faceroll the tiers lower than them. Where are they going to go? They can never win. They can never loose and drop in the league. They’re stuck unless everyone just abandon the server.

- The server on the bottom of the top tier will easily move to the top of the lower tier, thus getting the reward. Because after all, why loose when you can win? They dont stand a chance in the top league.

- Thus, the lower tier stand no chance of actually winning anything because the middle ranked servers will keep bouncing up and down.

- People will transfer just to grief the opposition, since they still get the loot and can do real spy work now. Players just observing the opposing server on different accounts? Lawl. Introduce the Saboteur as a real class instead. It might even be fun.

In short, the WvW league is going to feel pointless except for 2 servers which will /laugh at everyone. Its quite obvious that ANET wants to take a stick and shove it into a bee hive just for fun. Its going to be hell for decently stabilized servers.

Besides, dont we already have a “league” in place? 3 servers meet each week! Winner gets some free loot! End of story, everyone is happy and it is as it should have been from the bloody start of the game! What where you thinking?!

Just wait to see how it will work. WvW needs fresh blood. Fighting for pride is just not good enough. Surly it will break some servers, but others may rise. This mode will never be fair, but ANet should make it more fun, and league is good start.

Top tiers have heavy coverage during day (lags, queues), it is question of only night to improve their ranks, and this can be break only by other time zones. So basically, no way for all to transfer for profits.

DevonCarver.5370:

We’ve actually just recently added the tech to add an achievement for complaining on the forums.

can you implement an achivement for infractions too… I want to max that one

Sin.4130:

Just wait to see how it will work. WvW needs fresh blood. Fighting for pride is just not good enough. Surly it will break some servers, but others may rise. This mode will never be fair, but ANet should make it more fun, and league is good start.

Top tiers have heavy coverage during day (lags, queues), it is question of only night to improve their ranks, and this can be break only by other time zones. So basically, no way for all to transfer for profits.

I can tell you this. a lot of americans night capping morning force from na want to come to eu when this league starts problem is.

TOO MANY. a lot of NA pugs from lower tiers will come to top 3 servers in EU because they want to win this.

we are talking massive massive heavy ques all hours 4h all times around 24/7

Wemil.7052:

Sin.4130:

Just wait to see how it will work. WvW needs fresh blood. Fighting for pride is just not good enough. Surly it will break some servers, but others may rise. This mode will never be fair, but ANet should make it more fun, and league is good start.

Top tiers have heavy coverage during day (lags, queues), it is question of only night to improve their ranks, and this can be break only by other time zones. So basically, no way for all to transfer for profits.

I can tell you this. a lot of americans night capping morning force from na want to come to eu when this league starts problem is.

TOO MANY. a lot of NA pugs from lower tiers will come to top 3 servers in EU because they want to win this.

we are talking massive massive heavy ques all hours 4h all times around 24/7

Glory for the winners! I thought You Americans have it in veins. It’s a competitive World. (and fun with no lags and queues for rest)

DevonCarver.5370:

Rieselle.5079:

3. The player must meet some form of minimum activity requirement or lose his registration for that season. (we can discuss what constitutes activity worthy of receiving the reward i guess.)

The season long reward will require you to complete the WvW season meta achievement. Which behaves much like the Living World achievements. The server for which you receive rewards will be the 1st server you log in on once the season starts. Any transfers after that will not change your rewards.

This sounds great. Perhaps make it so that it requires you to complete all of the achievements on the same server to avoid hoppers who go on SFR for the first day of the season then go back home and wait for their prize.

DevonCarver.5370:

…it opens the opportunity for people to move to those lower leagues and finish 1st or 2nd, rather than being in the top league and finishing 6th or 7th. The rewards for finishing 2nd in the Bronze League will be markedly better than the rewards for finishing 6th in the Gold league.

You’re F-ing kidding me right? What the hell does “markedly better” mean. When was the last time you sat down and looked at the title of your game?

Guild Wars

Where in this game do you see Guild wars? Ohh right.. behind the windmill at the unsanctioned GvG.

I just wanted to congratulate Blackgate, Tarnished Coast, Fort Aspenwood, Dragonbrand and everyone else who puts in hard work and dedication every week in WvW but doesn’t finish first… Kaineng is going to get better rewards than you because.. Well I have no idea why.

GG

DevonCarver.5370:

Walabone.6713:

I hope you take into consideration adding achievements that encourage zergs to disperse. Lets not have another WvExp situation.

Although, all in all, I’m not enthusiastic about this new system. I fail to understand the concept of “competition” that you hope to instill, when the playing field is inherently unbalanced. Numbers win everything. How is that a fair competition?

At no point did I, or would I have, said “Fair competition” WvW is not intended to be “fair”. There are servers with more people, there are servers with better organizations and that will always be the case. This competition will be about showing how your world can do over a defined period of time, against a variety of opponents. SPvP is the part of our game that aims for a completely level playing field. WvW would never be able to match that goal.

So if some servers have no hope of winning, whats the point of them even trying then?

Easiest solution for transfers is no more transfers to a higher ranked server. All you can do is transfer to a lower server which will help their population out.
Ow and of course closing the highest ranked servers for any new players.

Besides i dont understand what the fun is on being on a server who beats everyone all the time. Gaming used to be about challenges instead of what is the easiest way to win.

Dopamine.7502:

Easiest solution for transfers is no more transfers to a higher ranked server. All you can do is transfer to a lower server which will help their population out.
Ow and of course closing the highest ranked servers for any new players.

Besides i dont understand what the fun is on being on a server who beats everyone all the time. Gaming used to be about challenges instead of what is the easiest way to win.

Kids these days are soft and don’t like a challenge. Other wise we would have a great system where crafted items were the best in game when you died it was full loot time. Ahh UO the good old days.

DevonCarver.5370:

Oren.1736:

Community concern is that incentives will be high enough to draw players to transfer up the tiers, killing even more low tier servers, over filling silver tiers with players and so forth for gold. Can you comment on any plans to address community size issues?

I can’t comment at this time as we haven’t finalized anything. In addition, you should look at it this way, if people flee lower league servers to get into the top leagues, it opens the opportunity for people to move to those lower leagues and finish 1st or 2nd, rather than being in the top league and finishing 6th or 7th. The rewards for finishing 2nd in the Bronze League will be markedly better than the rewards for finishing 6th in the Gold league.

Why would anyone leave a top two (or three) server (that is almost guaranteed to be in the running for top placement in future leagues) to move to a lower ranked server, which will be unstable and possibly not even win a silver or bronze league, or if they do, could move up a league the next match up and thus place last in the tougher league getting poor rewards? This gives incentive to players on middle-low ranked servers in a future league to move either up or down (any server currently ranked between 4 and 10 in NA is very unlikely to get a first place finish in either of the NA leagues and the players on them would do better to move to another server).

So you are punished for being the 7th best server in the gold league (a server which would be rated higher than the 1st place server in the bronze league) and rewarded for being conveniently placed in the bronze league despite having a weaker server?

Why would you do this? Why would you create arbitrary rewards for an arena you said yourself is not balanced? Why would you give greater rewards to a server that is weaker than another server but because they were weak enough, they get placed in a low league (and thus a higher placement in that league) but a stronger server “isn’t weak enough” and falls into the bottom placements for a tougher league “earning” them inferior rewards? None of this makes sense. You are randomly giving rewards to servers. Some servers will get them because they have the best coverage. Some servers will get them because they are better placed in the ratings. Some servers won’t get them because none of your arbitrary criteria favours them.

How is any of this helping?

I fully expect Anet to go through with this 2 tier league structure, even though the majority of the post’s are against such a limited and utterly unbalanced system. Its not about giving you’re paying customer what they want guys!! Also, seeing as really only a small portion of the player base reads and responds in these threads, we do not speak for the majority, therefore we should not expect anything.

Can’t wait till we get that next mastery skill line that will allow golems to fly.

Just ran some numbers from the past 7 weeks.

Going from a delta Glicko as determining order we have:

  Sorrow’s Furnace 161.695
  Isle of Janthir 151.329
  Borlis Pass 151.145
  Eredon Terrace 134.356
  Northern Shiverpeaks 92.52
  Henge of Denravi 79.392
  Ferguson’s Crossing 54.793
  Jade Quarry 28.675
  Tarnished Coast 12.464
  Crystal Desert 11.039
  Fort Aspenwood 7.774
  Gate of Madness -6.265
  Maguuma -11.976
  Darkhaven -15.426
  Stormbluff Isle -25.236
  Sanctum of Rall -26.434
  Blackgate -39.534
  Devona’s Rest -41.072
  Dragonbrand -63.938
  Sea of Sorrows -65.767
  Yak’s Bend -72.468
  Anvil Rock -124.256
  Ehmry Bay -167.616
  Kaineng -221.087

Using 25pts/first, 15/second, 5/third you get:

  Borlis Pass 145
  Isle of Janthir 145
  Sorrow’s Furnace 145
  Stormbluff Isle 125
  Eredon Terrace 125
  Tarnished Coast 115
  Sea of Sorrows 115
  Yak’s Bend 115
  Henge of Denravi 115
  Devona’s Rest 115
  Gate of Madness 115
  Sanctum of Rall 105
  Blackgate 105
  Dragonbrand 105
  Crystal Desert 105
  Darkhaven 105
  Northern Shiverpeaks 95
  Ferguson’s Crossing 95
  Fort Aspenwood 85
  Kaineng 85
  Jade Quarry 75
  Maguuma 75
  Ehmry Bay 55
  Anvil Rock 55

Which goes along with Devon saying that the best server in the lower league could get more than the 5th or 6th in the upper league.

Now which server do you want to transfer to????

Option 4 makes the most sense. Divide the spoils among the numbers of people who completed the achievement.

Anything less is just a blatant insult to less populated servers. Otherwise a totally stacked server gets rewards for simply being stacked…

DevonCarver.5370:

Walabone.6713:

I hope you take into consideration adding achievements that encourage zergs to disperse. Lets not have another WvExp situation.

Although, all in all, I’m not enthusiastic about this new system. I fail to understand the concept of “competition” that you hope to instill, when the playing field is inherently unbalanced. Numbers win everything. How is that a fair competition?

At no point did I, or would I have, said “Fair competition” WvW is not intended to be “fair”. There are servers with more people, there are servers with better organizations and that will always be the case. This competition will be about showing how your world can do over a defined period of time, against a variety of opponents. SPvP is the part of our game that aims for a completely level playing field. WvW would never be able to match that goal.

Understood, but the rewards should match the actual achievement being accomplished. SoR, for instance, doesn’t even have to work to land in top-3. TC could work harder than they’ve ever worked and probably not break top-3.

I think this is very fascinating the way they are dealing with it.

So far it seems most of the active WvW players, guilds & community are completely against the format. All top servers in EU are worried what will become of our servers. It really seems that no arenanet employee is active in any of the server communities otherwise they would know how hard the community is working. Seafarer’s Rest, being #1 EU server is already getting transfers, and what we do is find a way to train them, bring them on teamspeak and teach them basics. I know our french nemesis vizunah square is also dealing with transfers that aren’t getting into the community.

So what you decide to do at arenanet, is instead to make the problem even bigger. If you had studied in any way the past of the servers you’d know transfers has already destroyed several servers. And this only encourages further transfering alienating all the guilds and players that has worked hard for their server only to grant them 4 hours queue.

This problem is obvious to every active WvW player, but why is it not obvious to arenanet?

Maybe arenanet should get some employees involved in the WvW communities for a few months, then see how fragile they are and how hard people work for them.

All I can do is hope that arenanet see that the wvw system is not optimized yet for rewards. 6+ months you’ve been able to solo jump into jerrifers slough, and there’s so many other things you can glitch into.
If you really care about the WvW players, it’s time to fix all the tower and keep bugs. That way it wont be whoever is the most shady wins.
And if you really care, you’d realize WvW players don’t play for rewards. They play for the siege, fight, scout etc. We’ve had a year without rewards and we don’t need them know.

In short; maybe take a break from your plan and think about why so many WvW players/guilds/communities are against your idea. Maybe it’s time to listen to the community and less listening to transfer money.

If you don’t transfer to tier 1 and are in the middle tiers, its gonna be interesting to see which servers tank the hardest in WvW to keep from facing SoR, BG, JQ. As one of my server mates said, it will be a race to the bottom to not have to deal with constant map zerg. GG

Honestly, transferring wouldn’t be nearly as much of a concern if it actually blocked the player from WvW for a week like it was originally supposed to.

It doesn’t, and therefore, transferring is abused.

Shiren.9532:

DevonCarver.5370:

Oren.1736:

Community concern is that incentives will be high enough to draw players to transfer up the tiers, killing even more low tier servers, over filling silver tiers with players and so forth for gold. Can you comment on any plans to address community size issues?

I can’t comment at this time as we haven’t finalized anything. In addition, you should look at it this way, if people flee lower league servers to get into the top leagues, it opens the opportunity for people to move to those lower leagues and finish 1st or 2nd, rather than being in the top league and finishing 6th or 7th. The rewards for finishing 2nd in the Bronze League will be markedly better than the rewards for finishing 6th in the Gold league.

Why would anyone leave a top two (or three) server (that is almost guaranteed to be in the running for top placement in future leagues) to move to a lower ranked server, which will be unstable and possibly not even win a silver or bronze league, or if they do, could move up a league the next match up and thus place last in the tougher league getting poor rewards? This gives incentive to players on middle-low ranked servers in a future league to move either up or down (any server currently ranked between 4 and 10 in NA is very unlikely to get a first place finish in either of the NA leagues and the players on them would do better to move to another server).

So you are punished for being the 7th best server in the gold league (a server which would be rated higher than the 1st place server in the bronze league) and rewarded for being conveniently placed in the bronze league despite having a weaker server?

Why would you do this? Why would you create arbitrary rewards for an arena you said yourself is not balanced? Why would you give greater rewards to a server that is weaker than another server but because they were weak enough, they get placed in a low league (and thus a higher placement in that league) but a stronger server “isn’t weak enough” and falls into the bottom placements for a tougher league “earning” them inferior rewards? None of this makes sense. You are randomly giving rewards to servers. Some servers will get them because they have the best coverage. Some servers will get them because they are better placed in the ratings. Some servers won’t get them because none of your arbitrary criteria favours them.

How is any of this helping?

As someone on the Borlis Pass server, I couldn’t agree with you more. Its a huge issue right now for our WvW community. We know we are straddling the low end of the Gold Tier and the idea of facing Tier 1 and Tier 2 servers is horrendous. It would completely ruin any fun that comes from WvW for many of us. What happens in Tier 1 is a completely different gaming experience than what we currently experience.

Knowing that not only will we have our WvW experience all but ruined by facing servers with far greater number and far greater coverage BUT that we will also get the shaft when it comes to rewards for it? Talk about kicking someone when they are down.

This whole thing will only serve to polarize the servers more as people flee to the highest ranking servers in the two leagues. Its already a discussion and its already creating rifts within the WvW community.

Everything Stone said. Do we really need a two month roflstomp of everything below tier 1 to know tier 1 is gonna win this? Assuming there’s not gonna be a modified scoring system for this, at least I’ll have a few weeks to play GTA V without missing much.

Vyn.7026:

Everything Stone said. Do we really need a two month roflstomp of everything below tier 1 to know tier 1 is gonna win this? Assuming there’s not gonna be a modified scoring system for this, at least I’ll have a few weeks to play GTA V without missing much.

Exactly. I dont think devon realizes that T6,7 and 8 servers already know they are going to get stomped.

I’m sure when AR has 1 WvW player left he/she will put up one hell of a fight. I’m betting its going to be a he and his name will be leeeeeroy.

I remember when Kain stormed through the ranks, it was not fun for any server facing them until they hit their wall. If I remember correctly even Kain was saying that they too were not enjoying steam rolling because after 1-2 days they had no one to fight. So not only will Leagues destroy the fun for ranks that cannot compete with higher ranks, it will also cause a snowball for the higher ranks because its just not going to be worth waiting in Que for maps that are already completely capped. This is just a kitten poor idea.

Wemil.7052:

I can tell you this. a lot of americans night capping morning force from na want to come to eu when this league starts problem is.

TOO MANY. a lot of NA pugs from lower tiers will come to top 3 servers in EU because they want to win this.

we are talking massive massive heavy ques all hours 4h all times around 24/7

Well, not happening here… yet.

This is just my personal opinion: I think SFR deserves this. You wanted to win (again) by stacking and now you will become super stacked. SFR forum warriors have been telling in every thread how they win with their “superior skills” and how bad the enemy is, but everybody else knows it is numbers. Morning capping everything with 100 man blob + golems, while enemy still sleeps.

Desolation is still EU rank 3. http://gw2.millenium.org/eu

But we are dropping to rank 6, because glicko punishes us for not totally face rolling rank 11 and 14 opponents. No queue. EVen at prime time I can just click a map where I want to go instantly.

Amazingly EU top tiers can still offer small scale fun and allow fruitful solo roaming even at busy prime time without playing a thief or mesmer (or any other profession with easy escape). I hope this won’t change too much.

Like I wrote in other threads, the possible server migrations from NA to EU might make ANY top 6 server win.

SFR is a more a guild based server. Piken Square is even more guild based. You will have huge trouble when you are so full that guilds need to wait 2-3 hours in queue to get to same borderland map. Desolation and Vizunah Square are more PuG lands or militia. I predict we will survive the queues better.

DevonCarver.5370:

I can’t comment at this time as we haven’t finalized anything. In addition, you should look at it this way, if people flee lower league servers to get into the top leagues, it opens the opportunity for people to move to those lower leagues and finish 1st or 2nd, rather than being in the top league and finishing 6th or 7th. The rewards for finishing 2nd in the Bronze League will be markedly better than the rewards for finishing 6th in the Gold league.

So, what have the people in servers finishing 6th~12th done wrong to be denied the chance of equal rewards as opposed to the server in 13th that just won the Bronze League?

I thought the approach of the developers have always been about giving equal chance to everyone for everything? Why are we going against that? We are not talking about winning or losing here, since I believe its not possible to level the playing field for wvw. But we are talking about rewards here, and people being denied a chance of a reward just because they stayed in their server?

All I can see happening is people transfering to the top 3 servers, or the 3 servers that are likely to win the Bronze league. Screw all those in between

In any major sports league the lowest placed teams at the end of the season get to look forward to picking first in the draft. It is done that way so that eventually all teams have the chance at reaching the pinnacle of the game.

Here is GW2 the lowest placed teams do not have that luxury, in fact the only chance any player has is to go the free agent route and join the highest place teams to at least have a sporting chance at getting their “name on a cup”. That would be like the Yankees getting all the Cy Young, gold glove and batting champions.

If you want to make a sport out of it then for all that is holy put some sport into it!

Shiren.9532:

DevonCarver.5370:

Oren.1736:

Community concern is that incentives will be high enough to draw players to transfer up the tiers, killing even more low tier servers, over filling silver tiers with players and so forth for gold. Can you comment on any plans to address community size issues?

I can’t comment at this time as we haven’t finalized anything. In addition, you should look at it this way, if people flee lower league servers to get into the top leagues, it opens the opportunity for people to move to those lower leagues and finish 1st or 2nd, rather than being in the top league and finishing 6th or 7th. The rewards for finishing 2nd in the Bronze League will be markedly better than the rewards for finishing 6th in the Gold league.

Why would anyone leave a top two (or three) server (that is almost guaranteed to be in the running for top placement in future leagues) to move to a lower ranked server, which will be unstable and possibly not even win a silver or bronze league, or if they do, could move up a league the next match up and thus place last in the tougher league getting poor rewards? This gives incentive to players on middle-low ranked servers in a future league to move either up or down (any server currently ranked between 4 and 10 in NA is very unlikely to get a first place finish in either of the NA leagues and the players on them would do better to move to another server).

So you are punished for being the 7th best server in the gold league (a server which would be rated higher than the 1st place server in the bronze league) and rewarded for being conveniently placed in the bronze league despite having a weaker server?

Why would you do this? Why would you create arbitrary rewards for an arena you said yourself is not balanced? Why would you give greater rewards to a server that is weaker than another server but because they were weak enough, they get placed in a low league (and thus a higher placement in that league) but a stronger server “isn’t weak enough” and falls into the bottom placements for a tougher league “earning” them inferior rewards? None of this makes sense. You are randomly giving rewards to servers. Some servers will get them because they have the best coverage. Some servers will get them because they are better placed in the ratings. Some servers won’t get them because none of your arbitrary criteria favours them.

How is any of this helping?

Do you really think they consider all those things through before they make all this crap? I gave up on that idea a long time ago. The are clueless and have absolutely no idea how things go and what is actually happening in WvW. Playing on their private servers testing trebs and kitten. Its all bullkitten. Basically they are all laughing and shouting “Look at us guys! We are doing something!” None of them though realizes and even tries to consider the consequences of their actions.
Our server has already began to suffer from this. The amount of inflow of random ppl who have no idea how WvW is played on the top of the ladder is enormous. Now its only free transfers left to happen before implementing those leagues and its all gone…
And the sheer stupidity and incompetency of ever considering to implement leagues and rewards and competitiveness in something that is nowhere near the basics of a balanced game, where everything is decided by simple coverage and there is no skill involved whatsoever, is really not understandable by me. But kitten that, I couldn’t care less about those rewards, but what I do care is my guild, my friends, my community and my server, and ofc the ability to play with them. So ye, kitten me right, not exactly the things ANet cares about… And I cant even begin to describe how disappointed I am of ANet so desperately trying to destroy the self-organised GvGs…

If I’m to summarize the situation in a fashion it would be like: “Brace yourselves! The destruction of guilds, communities and servers is coming!”

DevonCarver.5370:

Walabone.6713:

I hope you take into consideration adding achievements that encourage zergs to disperse. Lets not have another WvExp situation.

Although, all in all, I’m not enthusiastic about this new system. I fail to understand the concept of “competition” that you hope to instill, when the playing field is inherently unbalanced. Numbers win everything. How is that a fair competition?

At no point did I, or would I have, said “Fair competition” WvW is not intended to be “fair”. There are servers with more people, there are servers with better organizations and that will always be the case. This competition will be about showing how your world can do over a defined period of time, against a variety of opponents. SPvP is the part of our game that aims for a completely level playing field. WvW would never be able to match that goal.

This type of attitude sinks online games. Most of us have seen it happen dozens of times. I hope you’re aware of how fast communities can turn in this genre. You aren’t the only game in town. Stop and think about the real issues with your game since launch that you are refusing to address because they are difficult.

Of course the massive population imbalances are never going to change as long as you do nothing about it. Of course the gameplay of zerg > anything is going to continue as long you do nothing about it. Throwing up your hands and saying these things are set in stone when you are the one who can fix them makes no sense.

Of course populations are never going to be exactly the same. Coverage is never going to be exactly the same. Nobody is asking for that. What people want is semi-competitive matches, and some reason to do something other than zerg. Is that too much to ask?

You don’t need to run leagues to find out how each server will do against a variety of opponents. The way the system is right now, the outcomes are already assured. Anyone on these forums can tell you, within a small margin of error, exactly how every server is going to place. Why? Because the populations are massively imbalanced and zergs rule the day.

Until you fix those problems, there’s no reason to even play the games…because a certain level of “fairness” is REQUIRED for a game to be worth playing. You don’t seem to get that. There’s a big difference between the inherent uneven nature of open-world battle and what we’re seeing between T1 and T8 servers. This isn’t “natural” or inherent to the game type. It’s a result of poor decisions and design, months of free transfers, and incentivizing the wrong things. It needs to be fixed.

You can rearrange the boxes as many ways as you want, eventually you are going to realize that a 5000 pound box will ALWAYS crush a 1 pound box. It’s preschool education, but I guess we all have to get it sometime. Keep moving those boxes around… you’ll get it.

I’ve given multiple suggestions in the past on ways to provide incentives to better balance participating populations, and ways to reward skill, strategy, and tactics over sheer numbers. I’ve even provided ways to make defense more personally rewarding so more people would play the game in a way that benefits their server. You don’t even have to come up with the ideas to solve your major problems…your community has provided you with dozens of great ones. You just have to listen to your customers a little bit…maybe in a slightly more humble way.

Stop and think. Please. Roll this idea back and work on fixing the real problems first. Your flip responses in this thread really scare me…I’m forced to wonder if you recognize the gravity of the situation.

DevonCarver.5370:

At no point did I, or would I have, said “Fair competition” WvW is not intended to be “fair”. There are servers with more people, there are servers with better organizations and that will always be the case. This competition will be about showing how your world can do over a defined period of time, against a variety of opponents. SPvP is the part of our game that aims for a completely level playing field. WvW would never be able to match that goal.

With all due respect, SPvp is nothing but unfair as well, it’s not a completely level playing field since class balance is worth more about anything else in that game mode and classes are definitely not balanced. But I guess it might work to to point a finger in another direction towards something else while covering up unwanted issues with the other hand. I am sorry, but that argument will not work.

Unless other dramatic changes are coming to the WvW point system together with this, the best WvW servers will be those that PvDoor all objectives while others sleep and play Sim(Siege)Wars 2 upgrading all their objectives to t3 and siegeing them with dozens of arrowcarts and few trebs inside. This is how the wvw point system always worked. Only this time, the servers will get rewarded with epic lootz and achievements for their heroic PvP (not) effort. I guess they will deserve them for all those sleepless nights spent defeating doors and the boils on their bottoms from all the sitting on arrow carts and trebuchets.

I think I prefer the current system where the ‘reward’ for such activities on the EU ladder is a higher probability of facing Vizunah Square.