Guild Wars 2

ykyk.2740:

BAITness.1083:

Lasica.5068:

renmei.3102:

Is the double team on BG due to wanting the (lol) rewards or due to bad blood, history and spite? As far as I can tell it is the latter, changing the swiss system isn’t going to change anything.

Definitely the later, the difference between 1st and 3rd doesn’t affect the rewards much.

1st gets 500pts so 1 weapon + 1 ascended accessory OR 2 ascended accessories + 100 spare points.
2nd gets 450 pts so 1 weapon + 150 spare pts OR 2 ascended accessories + 50 spare points.
3rd gets 400 pts so 1 weapon + 100 spare pts OR 2 ascended accessories

Yes the rewards are terrible but like I said if this was really some bad blood this would have been going on before the tournament started, not after JQ and TC managed to lose their first match in forever. This is a select few guild leaders on these servers dragging the rest of their servers through the mud to try and put some salve on their fragile egos.

Edit: Not that ANet doesn’t deserve their share of the blame for promoting it with their unbelievably awful tournament plans. People ask for WvW updates, so they give us this tournament to make it even worse.

What is wrong with you.

Speak for yourself, I am in JQ and an avid WvWvW player, and this season is personal for me against BG. Get the facts right, first week was purely 3-way fight between BG, TC and JQ, there might be a one or two off incidence but that might be beneficial for both sides but it was 3-way mainly. Once BG got arrogant and started posting like they have won the tourney after their first week victory. Well this is what they deserve hope they fall to fifth place behind SoS and MAG. I truly enjoy watching them burn each week till the 9th. Please don’t give the crap that certain few players talk smack on the forums and you guy’s don’t deserve it if you want pity don’t play WvWvW.

The general consensus in JQ is we don’t give a kitten who wins First or Second, we just wish the downfall of Blackgate.

FooKFiGhTeR …. u should take a break from this game…your general hate for pixels really is unhealthy. Also please stop spamming communist propaganda ^.^ this thread isn’t about your beaten up JQ ego..this thread is about a serious topic that may or may not effect wvw as a whole.

A 2v1 match alliance is something Anet expected to happen in WvW. However, losing to win and trading wins is going to bring about changes like Red Resign Day from GW1.

You might not like the changes Anet imposes after season 2.

Personally i don’t even like the changes compared to S1…..it was simple back then..u are good? u win…period. Best server wins a season like any normal competition on the planet.

It seems to me “we” (anet) are just looking for ideas to make lesser servers not feel so bad for their loss..which in reality is flawed. U have to work for your win. Not be carried there. If a server is in silver/bronze/bone league or whatever this shouldn’t effect the work and dedication put in, by the higher servers. Don’t bring everyone down because u can’t grow your server like others did.

But hey maybe i am old fashioned when it comes down to a true competition and the outcomes of it. It’s just a personal view of things.

For me this season and system is the “Ooooh let’s feel bad for the slacker servers” system. Nothing more….sry if u feel offended but that’s the truth. Why not just organize a season where everyone comes first place? Hold hands..share stories…sing about double rainbows and unicorns…

This new system only makes slacker servers slack even more..it doesn’t in any way entice them to get better. The message it sends is “let’s not do anything..we win anyway”

Rebound.3409:

Personally i don’t even like the changes compared to S1…..it was simple back then..u are good? u win…period. Best server wins a season like any normal competition on the planet.

ROFL, not hard to guess what server you’re from. I don’t think you understand that WvW matches are primarily won by a server’s coverage and not skill. I know its hard to believe but coverage imbalance actually exists, friend.

Winning has nothing to do with being good in Season 1 or the current League. Winning in Season 1 was a numbers game, not a skill game.

The winners of Season 1 didn’t “work for their win” they recruited their was to a win. Individually they aren’t more skilled than their opponents, they ounumbered their opponents. Dispel any illusion you have that winning the weekly PPT in WvW is primarily about anything other than coverage, skill is a small blip in what is ultimately decided by population and time zones. Once you’ve done that you might be open to the idea that rewarding anyone for the PPT of their server is unfair to people who’s only fault is to be on a less populated server. Individual rewards should be based on individual merit, not the server you transfer to. Anyone who completes the WvW meta should receive the same reward. Players on a T1 server who do the minimal amount of effort to complete the meta are no more deserving of rewards than players on a T2 or T5 server. To do it any other way rewards server selection and not WvW participation, skill or achievement.

The current League system isn’t any better. Implementing a system which can be easily manipulated to predict match ups and score outcomes is horribly flawed. JQ and TC might improve their individual placement at the end of the League but all three T1 servers lose when it comes to gameplay. I think a 2v1 is a fine thing to have in WvW but when it’s a League long prolonged effort to manipulate the score, it becomes unfun for JQ and TC who no longer have a challenging opponent and it’s unfun for BG who can’t possibly compete against two servers of similar strength to their own who are not fighting each other and primarily focusing BG. When the WvW team has designed a system that encourages this, they are designing a system which encourages or rewards players for making the game less competitive or fun. It’s even worse when you look at the position of SoS.

No system should encourage a server to “throw” a match or intentionally under-perform to manipulate their overall score and future match ups resulting in a higher final placement. The fact that the league’s scoring system allows and encoruages this is highly problematic. SoS simply shouldn’t have an incentive to throw a match to be rewarded with a higher placement.

Honestly I don’t think WvW should have real individual rewards for League/Season placement. It’s perfectly fine to give players a reward for completion of the meta achievement, but WvW isn’t a balanced competitive format and it never will be. The only rewards for placement in the league/season should be “prestige” and temporary finishers until the end of the next league/season. The current league system shouldn’t be used again due to how easy it is to manipulate outcomes (regardless of how players are rewarded) and T1 servers shouldn’t be in the same league as any other servers until the population gap is made smaller (if ever).

Kigera.9584:

Rebound.3409:

Personally i don’t even like the changes compared to S1…..it was simple back then..u are good? u win…period. Best server wins a season like any normal competition on the planet.

ROFL, not hard to guess what server you’re from. I don’t think you understand that WvW matches are primarily won by a server’s coverage and not skill. I know its hard to believe but coverage imbalance actually exists, friend.

I know it’s hard to believe friend…but coverage is part of the efforts of a server..both directly and indirectly. The more a server is known to be a good one the more ppl will come to that server and even settle. WvW is a game of coverage..yes…. but in many cases coverage hasn’t solved complete zerg wipes from a more skilled server/group/commander/tactics. The moment when u stop thinking of WvW as being only coverage related and start thinking that numerous things make WvW what it is..that’s when this game mod will progress.

“Zergs” in wvw is just the surface of what’s necessary to win games. U have to see past that or stop lying to yourself. With all honesty don’t read this as an insult.

Shiren.9532:

No system should encourage a server to “throw” a match or intentionally under-perform to manipulate their overall score and future match ups resulting in a higher final placement. The fact that the league’s scoring system allows and encoruages this is highly problematic. SoS simply shouldn’t have an incentive to throw a match to be rewarded with a higher placement.

Honestly I don’t think WvW should have real individual rewards for League/Season placement. It’s perfectly fine to give players a reward for completion of the meta achievement, but WvW isn’t a balanced competitive format and it never will be. The only rewards for placement in the league/season should be “prestige” and temporary finishers until the end of the next league/season. The current league system shouldn’t be used again due to how easy it is to manipulate outcomes (regardless of how players are rewarded) and T1 servers shouldn’t be in the same league as any other servers until the population gap is made smaller (if ever).

Completely agree with this.

Rebound.3409:

I know it’s hard to believe friend…but coverage is part of the efforts of a server..both directly and indirectly. The more a server is known to be a good one the more ppl will come to that server and even settle. WvW is a game of coverage..yes…. but in many cases coverage hasn’t solved complete zerg wipes from a more skilled server/group/commander/tactics. The moment when u stop thinking of WvW as being only coverage related and start thinking that numerous things make WvW what it is..that’s when this game mod will progress.

“Zergs” in wvw is just the surface of what’s necessary to win games. U have to see past that or stop lying to yourself. With all honesty don’t read this as an insult.

So let me ask you a question. If Server A has the best pugs and best guild groups and Server B is full of bads but they have more players across all timezones, who do you think win?

In my experience and my server’s experience it HONESTLY always was Server A….ALWAYS. I am 100% not trolling or trying to prove a point just by throwing an answer that suits me. But again this is my experience. Maybe u had a different outcome.

Rebound.3409:

In my experience and my server’s experience it HONESTLY always was Server A….ALWAYS. I am 100% not trolling or trying to prove a point just by throwing an answer that suits me. But again this is my experience. Maybe u had a different outcome.

I agree with you. That’s why Maguuma always wins against Blackgate. ALWAYS.

Rebound.3409:

In my experience and my server’s experience it HONESTLY always was Server A….ALWAYS. I am 100% not trolling or trying to prove a point just by throwing an answer that suits me. But again this is my experience. Maybe u had a different outcome.

I checked your post history and it seems like you’re from BG? Is that correct?

Yup correct. Does that matter?

@EmoDevo don’t make this into a server vs server thread pls. U want to talk about why u lose..open a separate thread somewhere else.

Again…what does this have to do with this discussion? Sry but will have to report your post for trolling.

lmperdigao.2567:

Ulion.5476:

Well the swiss tournament is better in the larger leagues. NA Gold has to few servers for the system to work.

Pretty much. Swiss style is not bad for itself, it just doesn’t work how its supposed to when you have few servers and the disparity between them is too big. It may work a bit for some leagues, but definitely not for Gold NA.

swiss style could work in EU, and only EU because EU ratings are extremely close, and can shift dramatically over time. On the contrary, NA tiers need server implosions for anything to change at all. This further shows that the two regions are waaaay too far apart.

Also, current setup is less prone to “planned strikes against X or Y” then the old one, as you can only plan 1 week ahead, unlike the other one where you could form alliances or deals 5-7 weeks ahead.

Still, swiss style should NEVER be introduced again, EVER. It is possibly the worst setup ever, and offer very little redeeming factors for the “average” servers that is strong enough to hold their but too weak to steamroll two enemies at once.

Swiss style matchups are great for determining who is top tier, but they are horrible for determining rankings.

My server, Borliss Pass, lost (3rd place) early and has been grinding out #2 finishes all tournament, beating up on lowly SoR while everybody else blows us out. If we get only one victory against the worst competition, which we could get this week, we could finish tied for 4th place. This is an awful result, realistically we are the #7 server.

One problem is that the leagues are too small and finishing second is rewarded too highly. Finishing second after getting blown out by thousands of points shouldn’t be worth more than half of a first place finish.

If this is to be done in the future, I propose:

1. Swiss style tournament
2. Scoring system changed so second place =2 points
3. No leagues, everybody in the same system
4. Free transfer to bronze pre tournament, expensive, no transfer to gold
5. Top 6 get gold reward, next 9 get silver, next 9 get bronze

If anet is insistent that only one server gets to win (IMHO, this is a bad idea, they need to cut back on incentizing players to over stack servers), then a one week playoff of the top 3 servers accomplishes this.

Rebound.3409:

Yup correct. Does that matter?

@EmoDevo don’t make this into a server vs server thread pls. U want to talk about why u lose..open a separate thread somewhere else.

It does matter. For some reason there is a very vocal group of people on BG who don’t believe that coverage imbalance exists. When you tell them that it does, they will tell you that they are outmanned in every timezone and try to use weeks where they are tanking as an example that they are facing superior coverage and need help (more guilds).

Rebound, I honestly think you should transfer to another server or tier and see what it’s like to be on a server facing superior coverage. It’s hard to take your stance on coverage seriously when you’re on the most stacked server in NA.

Actually i was..on DB, SOS then BG….moved back when transfers were free. Most of my moves were because most of the ppl were doing pve more then wvw….or in SOS’s case, at the time, the community was not that great. Don’t know how it’s now. So yes i know how much coverage does to a server…but honestly at T1 the coverage is pretty well balanced…a server is know for good SEA while the other is known for good NA and so on.

Personally i see atleast T1 being very balanced when it comes to population and the best example i could give u is to look at the last match JQ/BG/TC had just before the seasons started. There was like a 10k difference between them or even lower. U honestly can’t get closer then that even if u have the exact same number of ppl constantly on.

At lower leagues i am sure it’s not that different…but the major difference is the dedication and effort they put in wvw. They might put their majority of work in other areas of the game.

If you look at Season 2 in EU tournament, the only interesting thing going on is the untargetable underground naughty golem . The server rankings are pretty much set. This means they get the same old deal as in Season 1, except switching the name of the server coming in 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc.

In comparison, NA has a new meta : player initiated strategy got many people excited and many posts on it on forums, even player created caption humor flash.

Some BG players have also given feedback that they enjoy the increased competition and more bags from fights, making them rich. Since players now can affect the rankings of their servers apart from the usual biggest stacked coverage server wins, it has made more players interested and participate in WvW .

Sykper.6583:

All this means is that Pure Swiss tournament format for WvWvW is not the perfect means to balance rankings, although it is better than before.

Maybe a blended format using Swiss and later on, server rating and points proximity to determine match-ups might make for interesting competition. With population imbalances as it is, there is no shroud over why we are caught in a loop of same match-ups across all the leagues. The swiss style would have been more appropriate if the servers were more closely matched, thus able to have the same match-ups with different results thus more difficulty in determining who comes out on top.

My biggest fear is that only Coverage in the past, now, and in the future will determine real victors. Of course, unless you pull off a 2v1 which actually decimates this outstanding problem outright. If servers were fearful of being double-teamed by bringing too many people to their side, there would be a much more even spread of coverage, thus defeating the biggest incentive to double-team since everyone has an equal chance to win.

it should be coverage. Its a 24/7 contest. Those with coverage should have the advantage.

That is a big reason the 2v1 is working (points wise) against BG. TC and JQ are playing overtime on most maps.

This won’t break BG since those that are fighting on BG now are the hardcore WvWers and long time BGers mostly. We win most open field fights and even with all the hilarious siege we have been flipping T3 WPs (without having to ninja them).

The problem has been the way they have done the season/tournament. Both were bad but at least season 1 didn’t encourage lose/win strats and didn’t allow for 2v1s of the scale of TC/JQ for more than half the season.

Also with the SoS strat and the 2v1, the best WvW server has no chance to even come in 3rd. I would say thats a good thing, except it has nothing to do with actual play.

They should have made it for more points gained through t1 match ups.

Its like giving horrible team a way to game the system to be considered one of the best.

But as many of us on BG have continued the fight, we see it as a big challenge and fun. We laugh and joke around.

One of the best moments (funny wise) was yesterday. At that bridge in between Hills, the camp and Garrison on bgbl, a group of like 50 JQ and 20 TC were up against about 30-35 BG. They had to build 8 ACs as they inched forward and NEVER pushed.

These types of moments are what keep most of us coming back. Those and the awesome fights and last second saves.

The problem is for many even some in the main WvW guilds are burnt out on the season and or discouraged. Anet really hasn’t thought either season through at all. It doesn’t take a year to figure out a good system. It doesn’t even have to be perfect. It just has to make sense and combat the problem of this season.

@Sol: Competition yes..i am definitely up for that and agree with u…. Seeing someone (SoS) trying their absolute best to loose on purpose to come over someone who invests in that competition…definitely not. That’s something wrong in my view…..very wrong. That’s not the kind of competition ppl want to be part off. This effects more ppl in a negative way then it does in a positive way.

It’s the exact same thing as saying “hey u can learn however much u want in life….a slacker will still beat u at the end”. That’s not a good image to promote specially from a competitive point of view.

Rebound.3409:

Actually i was..on DB, SOS then BG….moved back when transfers were free. Most of my moves were because most of the ppl were doing pve more then wvw….or in SOS’s case, at the time, the community was not that great. Don’t know how it’s now. So yes i know how much coverage does to a server…but honestly at T1 the coverage is pretty well balanced…a server is know for good SEA while the other is known for good NA and so on.

Personally i see atleast T1 being very balanced when it comes to population and the best example i could give u is to look at the last match JQ/BG/TC had just before the seasons started. There was like a 10k difference between them or even lower. U honestly can’t get closer then that even if u have the exact same number of ppl constantly on.

At lower leagues i am sure it’s not that different…but the major difference is the dedication and effort they put in wvw. They might put their majority of work in other areas of the game.

T1 is the closest tier to being balanced, that is true. But it is not completely balanced. When we can have a tier where no one is guaranteed 1st each week and each week people are left wondering "Whose going to win this week? BG, TC or JQ?’ then we can say its balanced. T1 hasn’t been like that since I’ve been in it. And one week is not a good example. You don’t know which server is going 100% or which server is tanking aka taking a break.

nekretaal.6485:

Swiss style matchups are great for determining who is top tier, but they are horrible for determining rankings.

My server, Borliss Pass, lost (3rd place) early and has been grinding out #2 finishes all tournament, beating up on lowly SoR while everybody else blows us out. If we get only one victory against the worst competition, which we could get this week, we could finish tied for 4th place. This is an awful result, realistically we are the #7 server.

One problem is that the leagues are too small and finishing second is rewarded too highly. Finishing second after getting blown out by thousands of points shouldn’t be worth more than half of a first place finish.

If this is to be done in the future, I propose:

1. Swiss style tournament
2. Scoring system changed so second place =2 points
3. No leagues, everybody in the same system
4. Free transfer to bronze pre tournament, expensive, no transfer to gold
5. Top 6 get gold reward, next 9 get silver, next 9 get bronze

If anet is insistent that only one server gets to win (IMHO, this is a bad idea, they need to cut back on incentizing players to over stack servers), then a one week playoff of the top 3 servers accomplishes this.

there should be a season then playoffs. The playoffs should be something special. such as TC vs BG on 2-3 private maps. The scores are combined. Or make a whole new couple maps so you can have a playoff where its literally winner is the best.

The only thing other than seasons should be reward tracks. This keeps the population up.

@Kigera: Well..the current condition of wvw season doesn’t help that cause also, does it?

Personally i think, if there was the same system which was in S1, with the current T1 balance..matches would have been much more fun and closer. ATLEAST much better then what it’s now….S1 wasn’t perfect…but from my opinion it was better then S2…and if that’s the case…that means ANet instead of improving they are regressing. That’s bad.

Rebound.3409:

Actually i was..on DB, SOS then BG….moved back when transfers were free. Most of my moves were because most of the ppl were doing pve more then wvw….or in SOS’s case, at the time, the community was not that great. Don’t know how it’s now. So yes i know how much coverage does to a server…but honestly at T1 the coverage is pretty well balanced…a server is know for good SEA while the other is known for good NA and so on.

Personally i see atleast T1 being very balanced when it comes to population and the best example i could give u is to look at the last match JQ/BG/TC had just before the seasons started. There was like a 10k difference between them or even lower. U honestly can’t get closer then that even if u have the exact same number of ppl constantly on.

At lower leagues i am sure it’s not that different…but the major difference is the dedication and effort they put in wvw. They might put their majority of work in other areas of the game.

T1 isn’t balanced. Its closer than most others but its not. BG can cover most time zones minus 1. Even then, we have enough on to hold and do some pushing. Thats why they have to stop transfers. While its a loss of money and loss for some to get to a real server, it stacks the top servers which pretty much eliminate the others.

As of right now the gap between BG and TC is big, the tc and jq is huge and jq to others gigantic. (arbitrary differences used). Point is BG is the top server, Tc is #2 and JQ is #3 (NA).

I am actually quite impressed JQ and TC have held on with the double team this much. Kudos for not sniping and backstabbing each other. :P

Rebound.3409:

@Kigera: Well..the current condition of wvw season doesn’t help that cause also, does it?

Personally i think, if there was the same system which was in S1, with the current T1 balance..matches would have been much more fun and closer. ATLEAST much better then what it’s now….S1 wasn’t perfect…but from my opinion it was better then S2…and if that’s the case…that means ANet instead of improving they are regressing. That’s bad.

They wouldn’t be close in T1. Other than the 2-3 times JQ and TC would face BG together, BG would crush them (as i suspect TC would crush JQ) separate. So yes the overall point system points would be close but the matches overall would not be.

Rebound.3409:

@Kigera: Well..the current condition of wvw season doesn’t help that cause also, does it?

Personally i think, if there was the same system which was in S1, with the current T1 balance..matches would have been much more fun and closer. ATLEAST much better then what it’s now….S1 wasn’t perfect…but from my opinion it was better then S2…and if that’s the case…that means ANet instead of improving they are regressing. That’s bad.

Both formats are bad. There really shouldn’t be any tournaments until we can have one where everyone in a particular league has a “legit” chance at first place. Don’t you think leagues would be more fun if Gold League servers like Mag or DB had just as much of chance at taking 1st as a T1 server? Things like that can’t happen unless coverage issues are addressed.

Edit- And S1 was nothing but blowouts. The only good matches where the ones involving 2v1s.

Rebound.3409:

@Sol: Competition yes..i am definitely up for that and agree with u…. Seeing someone (SoS) trying their absolute best to loose on purpose to come over someone who invests in that competition…definitely not. That’s something wrong in my view…..very wrong. That’s not the kind of competition ppl want to be part off. This effects more ppl in a negative way then it does in a positive way.

It’s the exact same thing as saying “hey u can learn however much u want in life….a slacker will still beat u at the end”. That’s not a good image to promote specially from a competitive point of view.

Let’s use sports competition as an analogy.

If we are in a 100m race, it’s bam and everyone bursts at max speed and it’s over in 10 seconds. If we are in a marathon race, pacing and strategy becomes important. You do not run a marathon by using max speed from the start and expect to last all the way to the finishing line. There are also teams whereby the main runner runs behind in the wake of his team mate to conserve energy before finally going max speed in the last few kilometres.

The 9 week tournament is more like a marathon race. Your view is that SoS will purposely lose which is against the spirit of competition but I view it as pacing. They still fight to the best of their abilities but conserve their strengths and not go for PPT.

If you watch soccer or football, you will see that there are important matches and less important matches. Each team does not go bam from start of league season at max effort all the way to end. They conserve strength, rest their key players during less important matches to reduce injuries and red cards. The football manager also has strategy and the half-time talks in the locker room is not just : ok fellows, fight all the way to get max points. There are matches whereby teams play super defensive to gain advantage for next match.

When you see WvW evolve in this matter to reflect real life sports competitions, it is a good thing. If it is a bad thing, why are these sports competition worth billions of dollars with millions of fans watching them ?

Sol.8341:

Chris, you do not speak for the majority of SoS. The top 3 servers of Tier 1 have functional war councils that can decide and execute strategies. It is no small feat to coordinate many guilds to follow the same strategy.

The only server that is worried about SoS strategy these coming weeks is BG as this post’s analysis suggest a possibility of them ending up as 5th place in season 2 rather than the predicted 1st place. This is potentially a fatal blow that can cause mass exodus of their guilds to other servers. I am sure SoS understands very well how it is to fall from rank 1 , free-fall and struggle back up again. However, to pull off a grand strategy, it all depends on SoS war council ability.

Good historical link to read up on : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Red_Cliffs

First off, I offered an opinion, the “I think” part was the caveat.

Secondly, there is no war council on SoS; we don’t go in for that bullshrimp. People are even touchy about people who are official points of contact for our server because it almost seems too much like a council.

Our discussions about such matters are on our community site and we have open conversations about any strategies or tactics we may wish to employ in terms of WvW.
There has not been any grand strategy in place since our T1 exodus ended and hasn’t been since; nor would the server at large adhere to any such autocratic decrees.

As for what happens to BG; if the egos on that server are so fragile that the rankings in a system, widely accepted as incredibly flawed, are enough to cause an implosion…
Well maybe that needs to happen.

I wish those that remain the best of luck and that those special, fragile flowers who wilt in the face of adversity not come to SoS.

Sol.8341:

Rebound.3409:

@Sol: Competition yes..i am definitely up for that and agree with u…. Seeing someone (SoS) trying their absolute best to loose on purpose to come over someone who invests in that competition…definitely not. That’s something wrong in my view…..very wrong. That’s not the kind of competition ppl want to be part off. This effects more ppl in a negative way then it does in a positive way.

It’s the exact same thing as saying “hey u can learn however much u want in life….a slacker will still beat u at the end”. That’s not a good image to promote specially from a competitive point of view.

Let’s use sports competition as an analogy.

If we are in a 100m race, it’s bam and everyone bursts at max speed and it’s over in 10 seconds. If we are in a marathon race, pacing and strategy becomes important. You do not run a marathon by using max speed from the start and expect to last all the way to the finishing line. There are also teams whereby the main runner runs behind in the wake of his team mate to conserve energy before finally going max speed in the last few kilometres.

The 9 week tournament is more like a marathon race. Your view is that SoS will purposely lose which is against the spirit of competition but I view it as pacing. They still fight to the best of their abilities but conserve their strengths and not go for PPT.

If you watch soccer or football, you will see that there are important matches and less important matches. Each team does not go bam from start of league season at max effort all the way to end. They conserve strength, rest their key players during less important matches to reduce injuries and red cards. The football manager also has strategy and the half-time talks in the locker room is not just : ok fellows, fight all the way to get max points. There are matches whereby teams play super defensive to gain advantage for next match.

When you see WvW evolve in this matter to reflect real life sports competitions, it is a good thing. If it is a bad thing, why are these sports competition worth billions of dollars with millions of fans watching them ?

Teams still try to win every game regardless. Football never rests people outside of playoff seeding already set. Soccer is different but thats if they are playing multiple seasons (ex: BPL and EUFA which happen at the same time). Super Rugby is pretty much like football except some guys need more rest or have a tweak in their calf and the guy behind him is almost as good.

Not showing up is unacceptable imo. But there is nothing Anet can do to stop that overall which is why you need to have a season somewhat like season 1 with a playoff (if you want a season format). It makes every match mean something then the best move on.

This Swiss Hilarity is just horrible. I think it was Anet’s way of removing top servers from the top artificially (at least in the case of T1 NA). But the format alone reduces the competition to a kangaroo competition regardless if SoS was or wasn’t throwing T1 matches on purpose.

They could have also polled the community because i am sure if it was polled this format would have been overwhelmingly shot down.

As soon as Anet announced a swiss format and 6 servers in a series of 6 server setups and that there would be individual rewards tied to server position it was obvious what the outcome would be. Some servers got an influx of transfers even somehow when they were full and we are where we are. Blame Anet for the shambles we are in.

As Shiren says, giving player rewards tied to server position was so flawed. All the fairweather and achievement hunters types just flocked to the obvious choices and numbers and coverage trumps all in wvw. Personally I could not give two hoots for a stupid skin if it means wvw is broken like this.

We were having some great T1 NA match ups leading up to season 2, some really close fights but its all gone pearshaped.

Kudos to BG though, I might not like your forum persona but I see plenty of your core out there fighting hard. /Salute

As far as I can see its just your “newer” recruits who seem to be creating these endless threads.

Kreen.3925:

As soon as Anet announced a swiss format and 6 servers in a series of 6 server setups and that there would be individual rewards tied to server position it was obvious what the outcome would be. Some servers got an influx of transfers even somehow when they were full and we are where we are. Blame Anet for the shambles we are in.

As Shiren says, giving player rewards tied to server position was so flawed. All the fairweather and achievement hunters types just flocked to the obvious choices and numbers and coverage trumps all in wvw. Personally I could not give two hoots for a stupid skin if it means wvw is broken like this.

We were having some great T1 NA match ups leading up to season 2, some really close fights but its all gone pearshaped.

Kudos to BG though, I might not like your forum persona but I see plenty of your core out there fighting hard. /Salute

As far as I can see its just your “newer” recruits who seem to be creating these endless threads.

i am loving the fights (not the capping because 15 ACs is just … lols). The open field or semi open field are great.

The rewards should just be based on finishing the meta. Aka finish the meta, get 1 skin of your choice and the 15 greens.

Honestly for the server placement (along with season 1) should have had PERMANENT finishers. Season 1 would have been the Dolyak. Season 2 maybe an Ettin. Just continue with animals or something like that. A exclusive finisher to the 1-3 places.

But Anet screwed that up as well. The finisher alone would have been reward enough (well until the llama, because thats just the best content ever).

mallas.9836:

The rewards should just be based on finishing the meta. Aka finish the meta, get 1 skin of your choice and the 15 greens.

Honestly for the server placement (along with season 1) should have had PERMANENT finishers. Season 1 would have been the Dolyak. Season 2 maybe an Ettin. Just continue with animals or something like that. A exclusive finisher to the 1-3 places.

But Anet screwed that up as well. The finisher alone would have been reward enough (well until the llama, because thats just the best content ever).

Yes agreed with this. Finishers I am not bothered about either but I can see the attraction

There is not really an issue here regarding whether it would be better or worse for “SoS” to lose 2 matches to enhance finish position. It will not happen.

Like many non T1 servers, SoS is made up of a mix of playstyles who, from my limited 4000 odd play hrs spent mostly in WvW, appear to do whatever they wish.

IMHO, even if we had a war council decision to try and tank, the normal diehards would still be out flipping camps, taking twrs and trying to scout/defend.

I certainly would be doing so as it is how I gain enjoyment from the game.

It may be best to leave matchup score manipulation theories to our Glicko betters..

Dubain/Elkirin/Elkaen/5 more….

elkirin.8534:

There is not really an issue here regarding whether it would be better or worse for “SoS” to lose 2 matches to enhance finish position. It will not happen.

Like many non T1 servers, SoS is made up of a mix of playstyles who, from my limited 4000 odd play hrs spent mostly in WvW, appear to do whatever they wish.

For myself, IMHO, even if we had a war council decision to try and tank, the normal diehards would be out flipping camps, taking twrs and trying to scout/defend.

It is how we enjoy the game. It may be best to leave matchup score manipulation theories to our Glicko betters..

Dubain/Elkirin/Elkaen/5 more….

pretty much if you don’t play to win, its a manipulation of the system. Its just how it is. If you lose playing to win, then whatever. But no one showing up for 4-5 days ina week its just bad for WvW.

mallas.9836:

elkirin.8534:

There is not really an issue here regarding whether it would be better or worse for “SoS” to lose 2 matches to enhance finish position. It will not happen.

Like many non T1 servers, SoS is made up of a mix of playstyles who, from my limited 4000 odd play hrs spent mostly in WvW, appear to do whatever they wish.

For myself, IMHO, even if we had a war council decision to try and tank, the normal diehards would be out flipping camps, taking twrs and trying to scout/defend.

It is how we enjoy the game. It may be best to leave matchup score manipulation theories to our Glicko betters..

Dubain/Elkirin/Elkaen/5 more….

pretty much if you don’t play to win, its a manipulation of the system. Its just how it is. If you lose playing to win, then whatever. But no one showing up for 4-5 days ina week its just bad for WvW.

Not necessarily. What SoS did in the JQ/BG/SoS matchup was to find open field fights and let their structures get capped by whoever. With the way PPT is calculated, it’s very easy to tank a match even if you’re queuing 4 maps 24/7

BG’s council btw, is just that, a council. Guilds coming together to discuss stuff that’s relevant to the server, and to vote on stuff. It’s not this dictatorship style parliament thing. What SoS has there is basically how BG’s council works. Guilds can choose whether or not to follow the majority vote anyway.

Release a tournament with glaring population imbalances and straight up bad game design and this is what you get.. A lesson for the developers, not that they give a flying kitten, this is not sPvp remember…..

Reverence.6915:

mallas.9836:

elkirin.8534:

There is not really an issue here regarding whether it would be better or worse for “SoS” to lose 2 matches to enhance finish position. It will not happen.

Like many non T1 servers, SoS is made up of a mix of playstyles who, from my limited 4000 odd play hrs spent mostly in WvW, appear to do whatever they wish.

For myself, IMHO, even if we had a war council decision to try and tank, the normal diehards would be out flipping camps, taking twrs and trying to scout/defend.

It is how we enjoy the game. It may be best to leave matchup score manipulation theories to our Glicko betters..

Dubain/Elkirin/Elkaen/5 more….

pretty much if you don’t play to win, its a manipulation of the system. Its just how it is. If you lose playing to win, then whatever. But no one showing up for 4-5 days ina week its just bad for WvW.

Not necessarily. What SoS did in the JQ/BG/SoS matchup was to find open field fights and let their structures get capped by whoever. With the way PPT is calculated, it’s very easy to tank a match even if you’re queuing 4 maps 24/7

BG’s council btw, is just that, a council. Guilds coming together to discuss stuff that’s relevant to the server, and to vote on stuff. It’s not this dictatorship style parliament thing. What SoS has there is basically how BG’s council works. Guilds can choose whether or not to follow the majority vote anyway.

I just saw lots of looking for SoS and them not being around except in little havok squads for the most part. Now i know there are the weekend warriors and all that. But i didn’t see them much. There was also plenty of talk from the commanders from BG that they couldn’t find them either and asked earlier on.. are they tanking the week. Apparently that was the word from SoS.

Whether or not its true, SoS doesn’t belong on the same map as any of the current t1 match up servers. Its a overall broken system.

Transferring right before seasons alone makes it broken. ZDs with BG, all the SoR guilds now on TC. Its probably their best way to make money in downtime from living story and all that but yea.

The greatest joy for an SoS player, is the killing of Maguuma. Not any WvW reward.

I’ve said for a long time that Swiss method doesn’t work as a way to determine a winner. Better to have it determine a group of servers qualifying for a playoff match. (perhaps top 6, with 1,3 & 5 playing off etc, then the winners of each playoff and the 2nd team with highest points qualifying for the final. During finals fortnight non-qualifying servers can enjoy random matchups as seen in non-tournament weeks.)

Why are people only now getting an understanding of the point system? Last week Far Shiverpeaks realized they could actually lose and not get penalized points-wise just to skip a match with Gandara. Most other servers that are tied for second place knew of this from the beginning and didn’t withstand unfair PPT wars every second week ^^

Kreen.3925:

As soon as Anet announced a swiss format and 6 servers in a series of 6 server setups and that there would be individual rewards tied to server position it was obvious what the outcome would be. Some servers got an influx of transfers even somehow when they were full and we are where we are. Blame Anet for the shambles we are in.

As Shiren says, giving player rewards tied to server position was so flawed. All the fairweather and achievement hunters types just flocked to the obvious choices and numbers and coverage trumps all in wvw. Personally I could not give two hoots for a stupid skin if it means wvw is broken like this.

We were having some great T1 NA match ups leading up to season 2, some really close fights but its all gone pearshaped.

Kudos to BG though, I might not like your forum persona but I see plenty of your core out there fighting hard. /Salute

As far as I can see its just your “newer” recruits who seem to be creating these endless threads.

Back atcha. /salute

The combination of transfers, ANet’s implementation of a swiss style system, and rewards just fubar’d WvW altogether. I’m sure this was another attempt to get more players into WvW to boost revenue; it just continues an on-going pattern since release of not red team testing concepts, nor understanding how players will react that leads to what could have been avoidable problems.

Of course all the drama, the threads, the slinging back and forth will only encourage ANet to believe that the season is an exciting one.

The play is reward enough for those of us who truly love it.

The finishers are an extra goody, but not necessary, and the skins are just ugly and will probably be seen in abundance more within the PvE population than elsewhere.

ANet might have been better off financially putting them directly onto the gem store.

-As ever, looking down the road and concerned about WvW in the future

iFruit.6190:

Why are people only now getting an understanding of the point system? Last week Far Shiverpeaks realized they could actually lose and not get penalized points-wise just to skip a match with Gandara. Most other servers that are tied for second place knew of this from the beginning and didn’t withstand unfair PPT wars every second week ^^

So was there a concerted effort to lose? And if so, was there any controversy within the server because of that? This kind of thing can really damage a server — which is why no one should be put into a situation where the incentive is to lose.

Lord Kuru.3685:

iFruit.6190:

Why are people only now getting an understanding of the point system? Last week Far Shiverpeaks realized they could actually lose and not get penalized points-wise just to skip a match with Gandara. Most other servers that are tied for second place knew of this from the beginning and didn’t withstand unfair PPT wars every second week ^^

So was there a concerted effort to lose? And if so, was there any controversy within the server because of that? This kind of thing can really damage a server — which is why no one should be put into a situation where the incentive is to lose.

Tanking scores is incredibly easy and doesn’t have to be at the expense of casuals. All you need to do is to allow some structure to be capped by the enemy servers for tick, and karma train them. You aren’t getting points, your casuals get loot, open field fights still go on and everyone is happy

Very true Reverence. For the WvWers, like me and you, the current situation is an annoyance but not a big drama.

We can still do what we like to do. Fight in open field, capture objectives, and if we have the numbers try and hold an objective as long as we can against a large serf. It’s fun in itself even if we are behind in PPT due to a 2v1. EvAdes fight for the sake of the fight no matter what server we are on.

Well…honestly this thread continues to be constructive..i appreciate the ppl posting here…JQ/TC/SOS/BG …whatever “color” u guys might be. Nice to see we can leave aside the tipical server trash talk created by noobs to have a solid conversation about something

Thumbs up, hope this continues.

Think back to the scramble before the season to get into Gold league.

The top 3 were set, SoS, I believe was not too far behind. After that you had Mag, DB, FA, SoR (by ranking but not really), and SBI competing for two spots. In terms of pure server strength, Yak’s (a PvE server that only shows for seasons), and HoD (a formerly dead server with insane coverage from transfers) are in the discussion. (There’s another mutant transfer server on top of bronze league as well).

This is far more interesting and dramatic than the coverage > all discussion where winners always win unless collusion happens.

Anet should encourage rather than punish what is interesting and dramatic.

Change gold rewards to top 6, put everybody into Swiss and watch 6-8 servers scramble for two spots (and structure the points so that the really lopsided matches against bronze leaguers don’t happen after week 2). End the collusion, end the preseason tanking, end the predetermined outcomes for everybody.

Open it up.

No one tanked out of Gold. DB made it on the strength of farming SoR’s ranking for almost 3 straight weeks and by showing some backbone in their T2 matchup; while FA had their off-hours coverage poached by other servers (transfers at least partially paid for).

I just hope they give things time to settle before proposing Season 3. The long-term stability of FA and HoD are in question; along with the question of how GoM will perform once they move into T5-T4 and see increased difficulty in their matches. NS and CD are losing their pre-season lustre but should offer increased level of combat for them and no one really likes their chances between IoJ and YB (YB interest will drop post season so I suspect SBI will get the #9 spot).

Reverence.6915:

Lord Kuru.3685:

iFruit.6190:

Why are people only now getting an understanding of the point system? Last week Far Shiverpeaks realized they could actually lose and not get penalized points-wise just to skip a match with Gandara. Most other servers that are tied for second place knew of this from the beginning and didn’t withstand unfair PPT wars every second week ^^

So was there a concerted effort to lose? And if so, was there any controversy within the server because of that? This kind of thing can really damage a server — which is why no one should be put into a situation where the incentive is to lose.

Tanking scores is incredibly easy and doesn’t have to be at the expense of casuals. All you need to do is to allow some structure to be capped by the enemy servers for tick, and karma train them. You aren’t getting points, your casuals get loot, open field fights still go on and everyone is happy

Almost inevitably, people will discuss the tanking in mapchat and that’ll lead to fights between those who want to tank and those who feel you should never tank.

And then you have people who get overzealous and start griefing their own server (waste supplies, build useless siege, the usual) to make sure they lose.

This all happened on NSP before Season 1. It damaged the server and it took quite a while to recover from that.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Reverence.6915:

Lord Kuru.3685:

iFruit.6190:

Why are people only now getting an understanding of the point system? Last week Far Shiverpeaks realized they could actually lose and not get penalized points-wise just to skip a match with Gandara. Most other servers that are tied for second place knew of this from the beginning and didn’t withstand unfair PPT wars every second week ^^

So was there a concerted effort to lose? And if so, was there any controversy within the server because of that? This kind of thing can really damage a server — which is why no one should be put into a situation where the incentive is to lose.

Tanking scores is incredibly easy and doesn’t have to be at the expense of casuals. All you need to do is to allow some structure to be capped by the enemy servers for tick, and karma train them. You aren’t getting points, your casuals get loot, open field fights still go on and everyone is happy

Almost inevitably, people will discuss the tanking in mapchat and that’ll lead to fights between those who want to tank and those who feel you should never tank.

And then you have people who get overzealous and start griefing their own server (waste supplies, build useless siege, the usual) to make sure they lose.

This all happened on NSP before Season 1. It damaged the server and it took quite a while to recover from that.

I am personally one of those people that think you should never tank. And that both ways. SOS tanked on the downfall from tier 1 to t4 on purpose while a few of us literally tried to run against windmills stopping this. Result: boring t4 matches for weeks on end and lost lots of good people that would have prefered t3 at least instead of the easy wins. It was for me one of the most upsetting moments and every since this time my connection to whatever goes and “speaks for sos” turns out very controversal.
Now SOS tanks in the other direction, by indirectly or directly stacking once again making t2 matches boring. In some way I feel sorry for mag and db cause i know how it is to sit on the other side of such a match just as well but nevertheless both server handle this way better than ours would likely do.

Now if we look at leagues – no matter my opinion- I think there are very few exceptions where you can actually pull of tanking on purpose if you got a solid community. Tanking in most cases includes the opportunistic development of getting somewhere where there is an easy win. As a result that server will attract opportunists an as a follow-up it becomes instable which is where i am for example very worried that sos might be there already. People that enjoy a challenge are not gonna like being in a match where the result is pre-definded or where the challenge is countered not by sportmanship but by stacking (a difference i noticed often na people cant make) and as a result once a difficult match turns up everyone but the few vanish.

The only real opportunity where a loose is better than a win is if you dont do it for points but for another “goal” that is overriding points. In my experience what quite often seems to work is some sort of revenge on a moral basis.
Otherwise it will indeed damage the server on a long time basis in which you not only use the solid people that play for the server but also the opportunists which leave once a better offer turns up.

Distaste.4801:

FooKFiGhTeR.8153:

Speak for yourself, I am in JQ and an avid WvWvW player, and this season is personal for me against BG. Get the facts right, first week was purely 3-way fight between BG, TC and JQ, there might be a one or two off incidence but that might be beneficial for both sides but it was 3-way mainly. Once BG got arrogant and started posting like they have won the tourney after their first week victory. Well this is what they deserve hope they fall to fifth place behind SoS and MAG. I truly enjoy watching them burn each week till the 9th. Please don’t give the crap that certain few players talk smack on the forums and you guy’s don’t deserve it if you want pity don’t play WvWvW.

The general consensus in JQ is we don’t give a kitten who wins First or Second, we just wish the downfall of Blackgate.

So you guys lost, decided to troll a fair matchup, and then brag about it and continue to troll them? You guys are only making your servers look like a bunch of pathetic sore loser trolls. The best part of this is you’re only making BG look better since “it took 2 T1 servers to keep us from winning”. TC or JQ might win the season, but you’ve gotten destroyed on the PR side.

<s>Remember everyone! We don’t want to bring megaservers to WvW because communities like JQ and TC are important!</s>

more like destroyed in the open field.

Pretty much the attempt to troll BG has made both TC and JQ look worse only because of their tactics within the week.

15 ACs in SMC.. 40 man zerg. still lose it

60+ man zerg in EB today taking all day to cap veloka and not sure BG keep has fallen .. all this with token D.

not including tag watching and planning assaults on that instead of real fights.

70-80 TC/JQ combined in open field building 8 ACs for 28 man BG zerg.

ALl you guys are doing are making BG look like world beaters. Nothing more, nothing less.