Guild Wars 2

DevonCarver.5370:

There is definitely some amount of truth to that, but I’d hesitate to say that much of what is going on in the JP is griefing, it is more that people unused to WvW are coming into a much deadlier map than they are accustomed to. That is the risk you take.

The risk YOU take is that you’ve created an achievement that is part of at least 2 other meta achievements (one of which you must undertake this task, no exceptions) – you’ve baited the trap heavily and now a lot of people are drifting in and getting their first taste of WvW in a way that ensures they’ll never come back. This isn’t those first tentative steps out of the citadel where you can look around a wide open landscape a while and get your legs under you – and get your face smashed over and over till you master a WvW-appropriate build . This is sluicing fish directly into the barrel with a couple tight kill zones and saying “are you having a good time? please come again!”

When you say “a much deadlier map than they are accustomed to” what many people are hearing is “the absolute worst WvW has to offer – a single bottleneck with no alternatives.” If you’d put only a single outlet on the invader waypoints in borderlands rather than the three avenues of egress/attack they have now, you’d have (rightly) been called incompetent as a PvP designer. Now you’ve done exactly that – created a challenge where there is only a single path. Its falling far short of the bar you’ve set elsewhere in WvW. As an introduction to WvW it’s terrible.

(incidentally I got this deed last night. It was my first time in the Obsidian Sanctum. There was a murder squad set up in the entry area. I joined in the mayhem up front, got some licks in, died horribly as usual and was contemplating blowing the whole thing off. Fortunately enough people from my server showed up, rez’d me, and drove them off long enough to get into the actual puzzle and I could largely focus on an unfamiliar JP with help from practiced travelers and a friendly Mesmer. Once in the puzzle fighting died way off. There was even a person from the third server in there who maintained a strict truce – I got on map chat to let others know where they were and that they were being civil.)

I think if you want to draw new blood into trying out WvW you might want to set up tasks that showcase the open world nature of the majority of WvW rather than the jump puzzles that happen to be found on those maps. Make a requirement of visiting the krait-island in the middle of the lake of all three borderlands for example – new players can get a feel for the geography on their own borderland and then start slinking about hostile borderlands on a task that allows them to approach the target from multiple angles.

DevonCarver.5370:

It is absolutely intended that you can fight people in the JP. The fact that so many people are piling into the map to get the achievement is good for any and all of you who are capable of laying the smack down on them, and, if they manage to fight back is hopefully going to encourage some of them to stick around and play WvW. If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple. The achievement isn’t required for getting the meta-achievement on purpose.

It’s still required to get the smaller ‘kites’ meta-achievement.

Also, you realize that all the new PvE players are most likely running PvE-centric builds that will not have a chance of holding their own against experienced players running WvW/PvP-centric builds, right? There will be fighting, but it will be very one-sided.

And if you want people to ever return to WvW, you realize that the experience of getting killed many times by griefers might be doing the opposite and drive them away instead, right?

DevonCarver.5370:

It is absolutely intended that you can fight people in the JP. The fact that so many people are piling into the map to get the achievement is good for any and all of you who are capable of laying the smack down on them, and, if they manage to fight back is hopefully going to encourage some of them to stick around and play WvW. If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple. The achievement isn’t required for getting the meta-achievement on purpose.

Devon – this isn’t the smartest way of going about achieving any goal of getting players to stick around WvW.

The jumping puzzle doesn’t showcase any of the fun elements of WvW at all. That why there’s usually very few people in there (unless they know there are a bunch of PvE players coming through that is). It’s a really good jumping puzzle in and of itself, which is why people are asking for it to be turned into a PvE model, but it is a terrible representation of what WvW is all about.

If you are putting Living World achievements into the puzzle so that WvW players don’t have to leave WvW to do them, that’s reasonably fine (though, since the puzzle is separate from WvW now it’s actually not the best approach – putting something new into the existing (and stale) zones would be better).

If you are putting Living World achievements into the puzzle to try to get WvW to appeal to players that primarily do sPvP or PvE – then just stop. Suck back, rethink, and come back out with a different approach.

Put the achievements out in the true WvW zones, figure out a rewarding system for WvW vets that would encourage them to “bring a newbie” out to play, anything else other than the puzzle would work better frankly.

It wouldn’t hurt to spend some actual development capital on the WvW zones either. Adding new skills of somewhat dubious character is nice, but actual additions to either the play area and/or the atmosphere of WvW would be far more likely to encourage new people to check out the system.

DevonCarver.5370:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

While I agree with the sentiment that this is WvW and if you don’t want to fight don’t come here, getting their rears handed to them by ‘griefers’ is in no way shape or form going to encourage anyone to stick around and play WvW. Just the opposite I think.

There is definitely some amount of truth to that, but I’d hesitate to say that much of what is going on in the JP is griefing, it is more that people unused to WvW are coming into a much deadlier map than they are accustomed to. That is the risk you take.

Just to make myself clear, I was not calling these people griefers. I was just trying to say that there are a lot of people that look at this behaviour as ‘griefing’.

And there is some truth to be had to that term to be fair. Camping a jumping puzzle or camping a spawn can certainly be considered griefing. Personally, I find it all part of the game and am OK with it.

My point was, herding PvE players into a ‘much deadlier map’ and having those players experience this type of play is not going to encourage many to stick around. It just leaves a bad taste in their mouth.

DevonCarver.5370:

If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple.

^ I lol’d when I read that. You don’t want to die, don’t play. lol… Plain. And. Simple.

Devon is right on the money with this one.

Part of PvP is organizing a group large enough to take on your enemy. If you’re outnumbered at your spawn point, get some friends.

The skill involved to be successful at PvP is often mistaken as being restricted to how well you can manipulate your character to kill another player. However, people that can rally a group, attract talented players, and find the right players can often dominate without having to know the first thing about landing an attack.

And a tip for anyone that feels outnumbered at the spawn point: Get a thief friend to stealth you with Shadow’s Refuge and/or blast finishers in a blinding powder combo field. After that, run directly to the stealth buff in the JP. If you don’t know where the stealth buffs in WvW are, do some google research.

DevonCarver.5370:

It is absolutely intended that you can fight people in the JP. The fact that so many people are piling into the map to get the achievement is good for any and all of you who are capable of laying the smack down on them, and, if they manage to fight back is hopefully going to encourage some of them to stick around and play WvW. If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple. The achievement isn’t required for getting the meta-achievement on purpose.

Can I frame your comment?

Visiroth.5914:

Vol.5241:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

While I agree with the sentiment that this is WvW and if you don’t want to fight don’t come here, getting their rears handed to them by ‘griefers’ is in no way shape or form going to encourage anyone to stick around and play WvW. Just the opposite I think.

Well for one, they’re not griefers.

Spawn camping is griefing. The spawn area doesn’t even give you invulnerability. There was even a thread with a pic showing another server’s players on their spawn platform!

Standing on the platform does gives you the invulnerability buff. You’ll lose the buff once you stand on the very, very edge of the platform, or jump down.

Now you have nothing to complain about. Good luck.

The only thing I like about the jumping puzzle are the fights you get in it. I think it’s great!

DevonCarver.5370:

It is absolutely intended that you can fight people in the JP. The fact that so many people are piling into the map to get the achievement is good for any and all of you who are capable of laying the smack down on them, and, if they manage to fight back is hopefully going to encourage some of them to stick around and play WvW. If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple. The achievement isn’t required for getting the meta-achievement on purpose.

Agree with Devon on this one.

Thrumdi.9216:

DevonCarver.5370:

It is absolutely intended that you can fight people in the JP. The fact that so many people are piling into the map to get the achievement is good for any and all of you who are capable of laying the smack down on them, and, if they manage to fight back is hopefully going to encourage some of them to stick around and play WvW. If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple. The achievement isn’t required for getting the meta-achievement on purpose.

Agree with Devon on this one.

I would agree. Except. Most players that come in from PvE without PvP/WvW experience have builds that are bad for the skirmishing style of play needed in WvW. So they are in a massively disadvantaged position. This, of course, posits that they are equally geared (more need for exotics in WvW than in PvE).

SynfulChaot.3169:

Thrumdi.9216:

DevonCarver.5370:

It is absolutely intended that you can fight people in the JP. The fact that so many people are piling into the map to get the achievement is good for any and all of you who are capable of laying the smack down on them, and, if they manage to fight back is hopefully going to encourage some of them to stick around and play WvW. If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple. The achievement isn’t required for getting the meta-achievement on purpose.

Agree with Devon on this one.

I would agree. Except. Most players that come in from PvE without PvP/WvW experience have builds that are bad for the skirmishing style of play needed in WvW. So they are in a massively disadvantaged position. This, of course, posits that they are equally geared (more need for exotics in WvW than in PvE).

DevonCarver.5370:

If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple.

Again this…If you are not prepared to PvP in a PvP zone then don’t go there and expect a free pass because you only PvE.

Another note I have no problem doing the JP in a build that is completely made for zerg play. Solo this build makes me a free kill, well at least should be…

Mad Rasputin.7809:

DevonCarver.5370:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

While I agree with the sentiment that this is WvW and if you don’t want to fight don’t come here, getting their rears handed to them by ‘griefers’ is in no way shape or form going to encourage anyone to stick around and play WvW. Just the opposite I think.

There is definitely some amount of truth to that, but I’d hesitate to say that much of what is going on in the JP is griefing, it is more that people unused to WvW are coming into a much deadlier map than they are accustomed to. That is the risk you take.

Just to make myself clear, I was not calling these people griefers. I was just trying to say that there are a lot of people that look at this behaviour as ‘griefing’.

And they are wrong.

DevonCarver.5370:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

While I agree with the sentiment that this is WvW and if you don’t want to fight don’t come here, getting their rears handed to them by ‘griefers’ is in no way shape or form going to encourage anyone to stick around and play WvW. Just the opposite I think.

There is definitely some amount of truth to that, but I’d hesitate to say that much of what is going on in the JP is griefing, it is more that people unused to WvW are coming into a much deadlier map than they are accustomed to. That is the risk you take.

My guild is small, but we do WvW. We know what WvW fights are like. What is going on in the jump puzzle is 100% griefing. Sure, there are some honest fights, but we’re talking about portal-supported forces camping out in a fortified position for the sole purpose of killing anyone that approaches. The time-efficiency of this endeavor is so low that the motivation is clearly not material gain, it is to inflict mental anguish on the opposing players. This is textbook griefing, and putting PvE achievements there is enabling it. Don’t forget to re-watch that manifesto for a refresher on the core philosophy on enabling griefing.

• Allowing portaling to fortify an entrenched force that prevents the progression of adversaries is a design flaw; it makes retaliation against the entrenched force futile since they can reinforce faster.
• Why does the stealth buff exist if there is a room dedicated to removing it and a room just past the dark room dedicated to ganking those that emerge?
• Decoupling the Obsidian Sanctum from the Eternal Battlegrounds means that people who choose to camp in the jump puzzle are not a detriment to their team, therefore there is no peer pressure to maintain a sparse presence like there is on the other jump puzzles. This is a disparity if not a flaw.

Edit: I went back and re-watched the manifesto. I was incorrect. I was unable to locate the exact tidbit I was after, but this post comes close:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success/

SynfulChaot.3169:

Also, you realize that all the new PvE players are most likely running PvE-centric builds that will not have a chance of holding their own against experienced players running WvW/PvP-centric builds, right? There will be fighting, but it will be very one-sided.

I found this comment to be really stupid. Of course if someone is running a PvE build, it won’t necessarily work for PvP.

Also through failure it will cause players to think why they failed. If they don’t think about why things went wrong, they simply aren’t people who would ever PvP in the first place.

SynfulChaot.3169:

And if you want people to ever return to WvW, you realize that the experience of getting killed many times by griefers might be doing the opposite and drive them away instead, right?

Same can be said for PvE, if people died constantly during the starter levels while playing through GW2 how are those people still playing? Shouldn’t they have ragequitted after their 5th death or so? “OMG THESE CENTAURS ARE SO OP!”

It’s no different. “Oh this monster hits hard and uses a powerful attack, I should dodge that.” “Oh this monster has knockdown attacks, I should use stability” the same can be applied to PvP. If those people are just constantly zerging mindlessly to the end and constantly getting killed without thinking of ways to prevent it, they can’t be helped. I bet if you asked one of those people “Why don’t you change some of your traits or carry some different utilities?”, they’d probably ask “Why?”, such a player would never be able to stand in WvW or PvP.

Obsidian Sanctum is a really fun JP that’s ruining by the possibility of PvP. I don’t care that it’s in WvW. I hate running it when there are campers inside. And I even really enjoy WvW — but the last thing I want to be worried about when I’m trying to make one of the tricky jumps in the OS is whether some griefer is a few steps above me making it impossible for me to move forward. Because it isn’t just that there’s PvP, but that griefers have an incredible advantage being further through the puzzle so you can’t even take them on without overwhelming numbers, and that’s hardly much fun either.

Most of the time, I won’t even bother going to it unless it’s really early in the morning and everyone’s asleep.

Groonz.7825:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Also, you realize that all the new PvE players are most likely running PvE-centric builds that will not have a chance of holding their own against experienced players running WvW/PvP-centric builds, right? There will be fighting, but it will be very one-sided.

I found this comment to be really stupid. Of course if someone is running a PvE build, it won’t necessarily work for PvP.

Also through failure it will cause players to think why they failed. If they don’t think about why things went wrong, they simply aren’t people who would ever PvP in the first place.

Of course they wouldn’t ever PvP in the first place. Unfortunately, they are funneled there by attempting to complete the Living Story content, which does send them there if they want to do all of it.

And if they’ve never done PvP or WvW before, would they know what’s better in one is not necessarily better in another? No. They wouldn’t. And they get thrown straight into an area known to house the worst WvW can offer in terms of community.

Groonz.7825:

SynfulChaot.3169:

And if you want people to ever return to WvW, you realize that the experience of getting killed many times by griefers might be doing the opposite and drive them away instead, right?

Same can be said for PvE, if people died constantly during the starter levels while playing through GW2 how are those people still playing? Shouldn’t they have ragequitted after their 5th death or so? “OMG THESE CENTAURS ARE SO OP!”

It’s no different. “Oh this monster hits hard and uses a powerful attack, I should dodge that.” “Oh this monster has knockdown attacks, I should use stability” the same can be applied to PvP. If those people are just constantly zerging mindlessly to the end and constantly getting killed without thinking of ways to prevent it, they can’t be helped. I bet if you asked one of those people “Why don’t you change some of your traits or carry some different utilities?”, they’d probably ask “Why?”, such a player would never be able to stand in WvW or PvP.

One-on-one straight combat? Fair enough. For that you make a fair argument. Trying to climb the colosseum, even in a group of 3-4 with a couple campers on top? Yeah. They have little chance, even if they are experienced. Or how about even a larger group of 6 or so against a large group camping anywhere.

All those that are trying and failing are not all idiots. They are just up against superior skilled opponents (for the play-mode, that is) in unfamiliar territory, and usually they are outnumbered. Yes, that comes with WvW. Those of us that know WvW know that. But players drawn there by the Living Story don’t.

Devon hit the nail on the head with his comment. Also, don’t forget that this is an MMO and therefore full of people who also want to help you. If you’re not used to PvP or holding your own against other players, ask for some help in EB (or Lion’s Arch) before you venture on. I, like many others, enjoy ruining a ganky badge farmer’s day with some swift smackdowns ;-)

Groonz.7825:

It’s no different. “Oh this monster hits hard and uses a powerful attack, I should dodge that.” “Oh this monster has knockdown attacks, I should use stability” the same can be applied to PvP. If those people are just constantly zerging mindlessly to the end and constantly getting killed without thinking of ways to prevent it, they can’t be helped. I bet if you asked one of those people “Why don’t you change some of your traits or carry some different utilities?”, they’d probably ask “Why?”, such a player would never be able to stand in WvW or PvP.

It is different. We’re not talking about participating in a fight that is designed to be won by the player, we’re talking about fights where the adversary has stacked the odds against the player.

• These are not simple avoid-the-red-circle fights, these are a dozen rangers cycling through barrages at key points in the JP where it is difficult to establish LoS to the player—impossible to do so without leaving yourself prone to the rest of their allies.
• These are fights where, by virtue of map design, the entrenched defender has an easier time reinforcing their position than the attacker. This is different than all other WvW combat where the attacker has the advantage.
• These are fights where the grief-ees are often outnumbered (formerly outmanned) by very significant margins.
• This map offers no strategic advantage to anyone participating in WvW. It clearly has no place in regular PvE; it exists for the sole purpose of facilitating griefing.

I just want Anet to admit openly that they either screwed the pooch on these last two pushes by putting PvE objectives in there or fess up that they want to support the griefing community. There is no other explanation for what has happened.

Simonoly.4352:

Devon hit the nail on the head with his comment. Also, don’t forget that this is an MMO and therefore full of people who also want to help you. If you’re not used to PvP or holding your own against other players, ask for some help in EB (or Lion’s Arch) before you venture on. I, like many others, enjoy ruining a ganky badge farmer’s day with some swift smackdowns ;-)

The queue time on my server during my play times tends to be several hours. Just getting to the JP alone is an accomplishment, let alone finding 40 volunteers willing to wait through that. While the helpful people exist and the overall goal is attainable, the game design is such that it is not plausible.

If I wasn’t unemployed right now, I would have given up hope on these altogether. When I had a job, there was no way I could even fathom attempting these.

Monsoon.2589:

You guys are borderline sadists with this system and the fact that you support it with a smile is mind blowing. You are taking a huge risk…alienating players is why I left wow. Don t make the same mistake

I think that it is more that the WvW folks, of which Devon is, don’t seem to understand that some people reeeeeeally don’t care for PvP. And that by forcing them to in the confines of the WvW JP, which is known for people camping it, will only push them further away from it, not draw them in.

Monsoon.2589:

Don t get me wrong I love wvw because I can be in control of what is happening. In the EB JP we have JQ camping…and they camp for one purpose only: To block PVE players from completing their meta.

You want to make people do JPs for the metas? Fine…just don t force them into a pvp jp being a loot bag cow.Just like why you would not force wvw players to watch hours of cut scenes and dialogues to do pvp

It is also worth noting that, in WvW, you can die and say “I helped tip the scales” or “That objective is out of our league, lets hit something else.” The jump puzzle is linear and objectiveless. It lacks the defining characteristics of WvW combat.

Put the puzzle in heart of the mists or something. Even though people in the puzzle don’t count towards EB map limit, they still wait in the same queue.

DevonCarver.5370:

It is absolutely intended that you can fight people in the JP. The fact that so many people are piling into the map to get the achievement is good for any and all of you who are capable of laying the smack down on them, and, if they manage to fight back is hopefully going to encourage some of them to stick around and play WvW. If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple. The achievement isn’t required for getting the meta-achievement on purpose.

I don’t think the Obsidium Sanctum was the best place to encourage PvE players to get into WvW. It probably was the worst place to try and encourage PvE players to get into WvW. I applaud the effort but you really missed the mark.

This is a hearding sheep to a wolf pack kind of thing.

If you want your experience in Obsidian Sanctum to have less PvP, get out there and help your commanders take control of all three keeps in Eternal Battlegrounds. By holding three keeps, you deny the other servers entry to the Obsidian Sanctum, then all you need to do is flush out the guys camping inside with a superior force and the whole puzzle is your playground until they take back a keep.

There is no such thing as griefing in a PvP zone, you are only griefing yourself by not taking the appropriate measures to ensure your safety.

Fildydarie.1496:

Why does the stealth buff exist if there is a room dedicated to removing it and a room just past the dark room dedicated to ganking those that emerge?

Ummm, my Mesmer has done the Dark Room with that invisibility buff, sneaked past the Coliseum campers and dropped a portal behind for reinforcements for sneaky flank charge more times than I can recall. What more can I say than L2P?

Edit:

The only actual griefers here are the people that take this normal PvP scenario into an official forum whine thread.

dunnberry.2964:

You PVE babies just don’t give up do you? Devon said its how it’s meant to be so either buck up or shut up!

You better be fine with ACs, blobbing and coverage wars with that attitude. rofl.

Surbrus.6942:

Ummm, my Mesmer has done the Dark Room with that invisibility buff, sneaked past the Coliseum campers and dropped a portal behind for reinforcements for sneaky flank charge more times than I can recall. What more can I say than L2P?

Edit:

The only actual griefers here are the people that take this normal PvP scenario into an official forum whine thread.

Now that is a creative use of the term griefing.

Looks like the idiots don’t only come from one side.

DevonCarver.5370:

It is absolutely intended that you can fight people in the JP. The fact that so many people are piling into the map to get the achievement is good for any and all of you who are capable of laying the smack down on them, and, if they manage to fight back is hopefully going to encourage some of them to stick around and play WvW. If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple. The achievement isn’t required for getting the meta-achievement on purpose.

Awesome post!

World vs Kite is NOT a pve achievement. If you are not prepared to come to a pvp map and do this with pvp in mind (this means not running with your pve build and zerker gear) you are not worthy of this achievement. These people you encounter are not griefing. They are participating in pvp.

Devon is 100% correct.

Let me just comment on one simple thing to all the “this is wvw, if you don’t like it, get out.”

This JP is DEAD when there is no achievement attached to it. No body is in here. Why? Because WvWers are doing what they are SUPPOSE to be doing, gaining territory in the ACTUAL WvW objectives, and bettering there server. Your not bettering your server but sitting in a JP preventing PvEers from getting an achievement, your just getting your kicks and giggles. So stop with the BS excuse that this is how it’s suppose to be.

Admit it, the only reason you kitten bags are here is to prevent PvEers from getting the achievement. That’s it. This isn’t rocket science. Your here to greif, otherwise, you’d be out in the actual WvW map helping your server gain territory.

DevonCarver.5370:

It is absolutely intended that you can fight people in the JP. The fact that so many people are piling into the map to get the achievement is good for any and all of you who are capable of laying the smack down on them, and, if they manage to fight back is hopefully going to encourage some of them to stick around and play WvW. If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple. The achievement isn’t required for getting the meta-achievement on purpose.

Played since release, 90% of my time was spent in WvW.
Never once felt the need to run the JP. For me it sounds like a thing that is close to the “farming” mentality, some king of PvE grind crap. Always looking for more stuff, more gold, more badges, whatever. I don`t have any legenday weapons, fancy skins and my total gold is around 80 coins.

If I will ever run the JPs I`ll do it with my own space bar, not stepping in the kitten pink gate. Until that time comes, I`ll hunt red guys with legendary weapons, and I`ll feel good.

SingTheDeadSong.8957:

This JP is DEAD when there is no achievement attached to it.

That’s not true unless you’re on some PvE or low WvW population server. Yes, the JP has been seeing more action, but it was never “DEAD”. There are guilds that have spent the majority of their time in the JP, killing dudes and looking for fights, this is not something new.

You want an achievement but either you, your server, or your guild don’t have the means to get it. I guess you don’t deserve it after all.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

ITT: People who have no idea what griefing is, versus PvP mechanics.

ITT: People that do not understand that PvPers can be griefers too.

DevonCarver.5370:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

While I agree with the sentiment that this is WvW and if you don’t want to fight don’t come here, getting their rears handed to them by ‘griefers’ is in no way shape or form going to encourage anyone to stick around and play WvW. Just the opposite I think.

There is definitely some amount of truth to that, but I’d hesitate to say that much of what is going on in the JP is griefing, it is more that people unused to WvW are coming into a much deadlier map than they are accustomed to. That is the risk you take.

Do not hesistate to state that. Much of what’s going on there now is griefing, pure and simple. Most of the campers aren’t there with intention to PvP, but only to feed off PvErs.

If it wasn’t a honest mistake in trying to advertise WvW to the wider masses, but Anet actively supports this kind of behaviour, then i have lost a lot of respect for you guys.

The only problem I really had in Obsidian Sanctum is that the guilds that do intend on killing players go for the stragglers, and while I understand that a kill is a kill, I don’t see the fun in steamrolling a single player that’s just trying to jump, rather than trying to kill a bigger group that also want to kill. I would think that a proper fight where you have both the chance of winning or losing would be more fun to fight. But that’s just me.

DevonCarver.5370:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

While I agree with the sentiment that this is WvW and if you don’t want to fight don’t come here, getting their rears handed to them by ‘griefers’ is in no way shape or form going to encourage anyone to stick around and play WvW. Just the opposite I think.

There is definitely some amount of truth to that, but I’d hesitate to say that much of*what is going on in the JP is griefing*, it is more that people unused to WvW are coming into a much deadlier map than they are accustomed to. That is the risk you take.

Imagine that like King of the hill mod or the hunger games, WvW Jp are to be dirty places for some reason.

it is griefing as any other pvp zone goood griefing

A laughing riot when you put in PVE achievements (kites.) into the jumping puzzle.

I suggest changing the chest at the end to a control point that actually counts for your WvW score tick, that should get people in there, and using the JP as it seems intended to stop people from getting through.
Or even leave the chest, just make it really part of WvW by tying it to the scoring system.

Then you also don’t need to lure us care bears in…

You keep using that word, I do not think it means, what you think it means.

A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.

PvP inside PvP area is very much intended.

LostInSmoke.2590:

A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game.

You can stop right there. Griefing does not always imply exploiting.

About the kite achievements, do be aware that one of them is inside a bloody Fractal aswell.

I need to get a group to do that PvE kite and you need a group to do the WvW kite. And even then “need” is a loose term, because it is still very much possible to do solo. And if you have a mesmer in there, it takes mere minutes. Unlike the fractals kite…

JP is a pvp zone. Enter at your own risk. I went for a cruise earlier tonight. Made it darn near the top when some FA jumped me. One particular thief from [NOPE] met the business end of the warrior mace. Killed a bunch. Died a bunch. In the end I couldnt even remember why I was there. Just enjoyed the fights.

It isnt griefing. You want those badges? Fight for them against real people. People who dodge etc. This ain’t pve. Also not for the faint of heart.

GuardianOMS.8067:

SingTheDeadSong.8957:

This JP is DEAD when there is no achievement attached to it.

That’s not true unless you’re on some PvE or low WvW population server. Yes, the JP has been seeing more action, but it was never “DEAD”. There are guilds that have spent the majority of their time in the JP, killing dudes and looking for fights, this is not something new.

You want an achievement but either you, your server, or your guild don’t have the means to get it. I guess you don’t deserve it after all.

I completely disagree with you. To me, the amount of people just sitting around purposely preventing people from completing this achievement proves that they are not just simply playing WvW, they have an agenda. And I also disagree with you that this place is not dead when there is no achievement attached to it, considering I’ve seen it. If you want to try and prove a point that these people are not simply being kitten bags, preventing other people for getting an achievement, that’s your deal, but I’m a firm believer that actions speak louder then words. And actions are speaking mighty loudly right now, in game, and in these forums.

I also hate to kitten in your cornflakes this morning, but I have already completed this achievement. I made a form post in here last night rallying my server, which seemed quite effective and we squashed Jade Query out of there, and I was able to complete it.

So my advice to anyone having issues is this. Make a post right here on these very forums trying to rally your server together, to take over the jumping puzzle. It seemed to have worked for me.

SmoothHussler.6387:

JP is a pvp zone. Enter at your own risk.

Yes, i know. That’s the problem, isn’t it?

SmoothHussler.6387:

Just enjoyed the fights.

I didn’t. I wasn’t there for the fights after all.

SmoothHussler.6387:

It isnt griefing.

What i have seen there? Most definitely is.

SmoothHussler.6387:

You want those badges?

Nope, have a truckload of them already, from the normal WvW activity i do from time to time.

ESKan.6782:

I always Banish my people off the edge of the final platform, but I do let them get the chest.

/wave
/cheer
4

I kind of think this is dirty play. Hence my my shame when I actually laughed out loud when I read it. Dirty, but really funny.

SingTheDeadSong.8957:

GuardianOMS.8067:

SingTheDeadSong.8957:

This JP is DEAD when there is no achievement attached to it.

That’s not true unless you’re on some PvE or low WvW population server. Yes, the JP has been seeing more action, but it was never “DEAD”. There are guilds that have spent the majority of their time in the JP, killing dudes and looking for fights, this is not something new.

You want an achievement but either you, your server, or your guild don’t have the means to get it. I guess you don’t deserve it after all.

I completely disagree with you. To me, the amount of people just sitting around purposely preventing people from completing this achievement proves that they are not just simply playing WvW, they have an agenda. And I also disagree with you that this place is not dead when there is no achievement attached to it, considering I’ve seen it. If you want to try and prove a point that these people are not simply being kitten bags, preventing other people for getting an achievement, that’s your deal, but I’m a firm believer that actions speak louder then words. And actions are speaking mighty loudly right now, in game, and in these forums.

I also hate to kitten in your cornflakes this morning, but I have already completed this achievement. I made a form post in here last night rallying my server, which seemed quite effective and we squashed Jade Query out of there, and I was able to complete it.

So my advice to anyone having issues is this. Make a post right here on these very forums trying to rally your server together, to take over the jumping puzzle. It seemed to have worked for me.

Dude, what is your problem? Chill out, it’s a video game.

GuardianOMS.8067:

SingTheDeadSong.8957:

GuardianOMS.8067:

SingTheDeadSong.8957:

This JP is DEAD when there is no achievement attached to it.

That’s not true unless you’re on some PvE or low WvW population server. Yes, the JP has been seeing more action, but it was never “DEAD”. There are guilds that have spent the majority of their time in the JP, killing dudes and looking for fights, this is not something new.

You want an achievement but either you, your server, or your guild don’t have the means to get it. I guess you don’t deserve it after all.

I completely disagree with you. To me, the amount of people just sitting around purposely preventing people from completing this achievement proves that they are not just simply playing WvW, they have an agenda. And I also disagree with you that this place is not dead when there is no achievement attached to it, considering I’ve seen it. If you want to try and prove a point that these people are not simply being kitten bags, preventing other people for getting an achievement, that’s your deal, but I’m a firm believer that actions speak louder then words. And actions are speaking mighty loudly right now, in game, and in these forums.

I also hate to kitten in your cornflakes this morning, but I have already completed this achievement. I made a form post in here last night rallying my server, which seemed quite effective and we squashed Jade Query out of there, and I was able to complete it.

So my advice to anyone having issues is this. Make a post right here on these very forums trying to rally your server together, to take over the jumping puzzle. It seemed to have worked for me.

Dude, what is your problem? Chill out, it’s a video game.

Dude, it’s a debate. I get passionate when I debate. Doesn’t matter the subject. Debating is probably my favorite thing to do.

How many points does the JP contribute to the total WvW points of your server? You can buy siege off the laurel vendor in LA, does that mean LA is WvW?

As far as I can tell, the only benefit it gives is free siege from the chest. Other than that it just messes up the queue into EB when people want to get to it for a PvE achievement.

I like the suggestion to move the entrance to heart of the mists. Then make every one your enemy, including your own server. Maximum PvP for people in the puzzle.

No I’m not serious, except about moving the entrance.

However, I really don’t see how the JP is contributing to WvW. Where does it show in the points?

Astralporing.1957:

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

ITT: People who have no idea what griefing is, versus PvP mechanics.

ITT: People that do not understand that PvPers can be griefers too.

No. There is no such thing as griefing enemies in any modern pvp game. You can grief allies, but that’s not the case here. Here’s a basic rule of thumb for determining if something is griefing in pvp:

Is there a pvp solution to the problem?

If yes, it’s not griefing. The only way it can be “no” is if the offending party is your allies so you cannot kill them since friendly fire is unfortunately not enabled (in that case griefing allies would also be impossible).
What is this pvp solution to your problem you may ask? It’s very simple, kill them. If you can’t, that just means you’re not good enough or don’t have enough people, it doesn’t mean the solution doesn’t exist.

I believe the above rule was used by devs on this forum in the past (or maybe it was Rift, can’t remember).

SingTheDeadSong.8957:

GuardianOMS.8067:

Dude, what is your problem? Chill out, it’s a video game.

Dude, it’s a debate. I get passionate when I debate. Doesn’t matter the subject. Debating is probably my favorite thing to do.

SingTheDeadSong.8957:

I also hate to kitten in your cornflakes this morning,

SingTheDeadSong.8957:

If you want to try and prove a point that these people are not simply being kitten bags,

SingTheDeadSong.8957:

And actions are speaking mighty loudly right now, in game, and in these forums.

You’re saying you will completely disregard someone who may bring new information and evidence. You’re not debating, you just think you’re right and are being completely ignorant and oblivious.

You sound like you’re going to have an aneurism on a video game form. Lord DevonCarter has absolved us of all sin, today is a good day, take it down a notch.