Guild Wars 2

The WvW design is horribad and I’ll just point out one really obvious mechanic to illustrate.

Use a a thief with a shortbow.
Be on top of a wall.
Try to shoot people below with a poison AOE shot.
Poof …your shots on top of the wall because of direct LOS calculations.
You move closer to the edge.
Poof…still hitting the top….
Finally with your toes hanging over the edge you FINALLY can get a shot off.

Meanwhile…..
The enemy can hit the top of the wall no problem and needs no LOS as the AOE covers the wall.

The net effect…you are buffed for attacking and thwarted from defending.

Why as a WvW player would I care to buy the expansion when they leave stuff like this in the game? I can tell you now I won’t be purchasing any expansion until they fix glaring problems such as this.

Want another one. All NPC’s do not honor stealth except to not attack you…..as a backstab thief going stealth while the guard heals…he tracks and faces you the entire time.

Want another…chain NPC blinds being reset on stealth.

Want another? Insta NPC target acquistion. One reason mesmers are OP.

The short answer is because you have to take the risk of attacking otherwise it wouldn’t be an interesting interaction.

If you want to discuss a mechanic that’s fine but I humbly suggest not assuming you know so much about design that you can lecture professional designers about something. It’s poor form.

jump just before u shoot problem solved

get out of that keep and fight.

Skeletor.9360:

The WvW design is horribad and I’ll just point out one really obvious mechanic to illustrate.

Use a a thief with a shortbow.
Be on top of a wall.
Try to shoot people below with a poison AOE shot.
Poof …your shots on top of the wall because of direct LOS calculations.
You move closer to the edge.
Poof…still hitting the top….
Finally with your toes hanging over the edge you FINALLY can get a shot off.

Meanwhile…..
The enemy can hit the top of the wall no problem and needs no LOS as the AOE covers the wall.

The net effect…you are buffed for attacking and thwarted from defending.

Why as a WvW player would I care to buy the expansion when they leave stuff like this in the game? I can tell you now I won’t be purchasing any expansion until they fix glaring problems such as this.

Want another one. All NPC’s do not honor stealth except to not attack you…..as a backstab thief going stealth while the guard heals…he tracks and faces you the entire time.

Want another…chain NPC blinds being reset on stealth.

Want another? Insta NPC target acquistion. One reason mesmers are OP.

Doesn’t sound like a problem at all.

Your working under, what I feel, is a misconception that thieves are intended to defend walls.

Do we complain because WvW doesn’t allow warriors and guardians to be sneaky stealth erstwhile who are masters at roaming and stealthily away? No, well not reasonable people in my opinion.

If you want to be able to be a master wall caster, play a profession with a build suited to it. It isn’t reasonable to expect the game to be redesigned to make thieves a master of both.

Quells.2498:

The short answer is because you have to take the risk of attacking otherwise it wouldn’t be an interesting interaction.

If you want to discuss a mechanic that’s fine but I humbly suggest not assuming you know so much about design that you can lecture professional designers about something. It’s poor form.

Forgetting the OP’s post for a second…..

Not questioning professionals (authority in general) is bad form as well, unless you want to live under Stalin or Pol Pot and then just be killed. Now I know this isn’t what you were getting at, but he has a right to question things without snarky reproach. American society, and others for that matter, were built on questioning people and their actions.

Designers get things wrong and goof up all the time. Hence, bugs, bug reporting, hacks in game, bad code, bad implementations, OP skills, OP builds, weak builds, bad terrain, bad physics for skills, bad pet AI, bad LOS issues, getting stuck in walls, do I need to go on? Should we just take the game as it was put out and not question it? Games companies and individual developers ask for our feedback and make changes accordingly all the time when they have screwed up. They implement ideas from the general populace and I am sure the vast majority of us do not have programming degrees and 20 years experience in the field, should that stop too?

This just isn’t in the designing profession. Everyone makes mistakes, groups of people make mistakes, companies make mistakes, governments make mistakes. So asking why something seems screwed up isn’t a mistake.

They physics of fighting from a battlement are screwed up in this game. You don’t have to be a game design engineer to figure that out as experience in general throughout history has provided enough feedback. As far as just the game, the attacking force has many other advantages a defending force does not have so you can’t just use that as justification.

Quells.2498:

The short answer is because you have to take the risk of attacking otherwise it wouldn’t be an interesting interaction.

If you want to discuss a mechanic that’s fine but I humbly suggest not assuming you know so much about design that you can lecture professional designers about something. It’s poor form.

I disagree. If we look at the defensive fortifications of real life, e.g. an arrow slit or boiling oil (where it can’t be shot from outside) the whole point is to give the defender an advantage. The OP points out that the opposite is true in GW2. Most of the time people avoid manning cannons and oil because they are so easily attacked.

Arenanet have more or less acknowledged that this is an issue in their implementation of the mastery system. Sadly, these masteries don’t go nearly far enough to remedy the situation and the devs seem to have forgotten about the system entirely.

You need to read up on war. It works out that if you hold land to your advantages your numbers tend to be double in effectiveness vs the side that dose not hold the land to there advantages. WvW not an level open field to just run head long into the other side and whom ever hits there buttons faster wins its a war simulator and not made to be fair.

Well first of all this isn’t oppression or a communist state so you can tone it down a bit. Secondly, WvW isn’t modeled after real war it’s modeled to provide interesting decisions as often as possible.

Quells.2498:

Well first of all this isn’t oppression or a communist state so you can tone it down a bit. Secondly, WvW isn’t modeled after real war it’s modeled to provide interesting decisions as often as possible.

It is just in a different world with a set of rules of its own. You would find most things that work in real life’s wars should apply to wvw well realty all RvR types of games. The reason why is that humans are still playing and they will still act like humans in any world or set of rules. War as far as we know is mostly a human thing with some other species too but that it (i think its other primates and ants).
You not going to kill ppl on walls or out of reach unless the person on the wall messes up badly. When you fighting a person on a wall or something you cant hit them on well your not just fighting the person but your fighting the land it self.

Quells.2498:

Secondly, WvW isn’t modeled after real war it’s modeled to provide interesting decisions as often as possible.

Well, if you realize what real era GW2 basicly get 90% of its combat style from – whether intended or not – you will also realize that a Thief complaining about defense is pointless. Its not the medieval fortress era, with archers tossing arrows from high places. Its actually earlier than that. We are fighing exactly like the vikings did (no really, look up viking tactics if you want). Back then, fortresses where mostly just palisades for protection and funneling. Treat them as such and you will see why this Thief fail at his work. The Thief wasnt a berserker Warrior with fall damage traited and dual axe flailing. If he was, he wouldnt have had LoS issues.

Jski.6180:

Quells.2498:

Well first of all this isn’t oppression or a communist state so you can tone it down a bit. Secondly, WvW isn’t modeled after real war it’s modeled to provide interesting decisions as often as possible.

It is just in a different world with a set of rules of its own. You would find most things that work in real life’s wars should apply to wvw well realty all RvR types of games. The reason why is that humans are still playing and they will still act like humans in any world or set of rules. War as far as we know is mostly a human thing with some other species too but that it (i think its other primates and ants).
You not going to kill ppl on walls or out of reach unless the person on the wall messes up badly. When you fighting a person on a wall or something you cant hit them on well your not just fighting the person but your fighting the land it self.

The fallacy here is discussing this in terms of real world war. Last I checked, real fighter cannot literally go invisible right in front of you, stop bleeding from blowing a warhorn, or shoot earth, water, wind, or fire out of a stick in their hands.

You literally get hit by a volcano when on a wall, and the biggest complaint in a reality comparison, was the fact that someone touched you? Not that they created a volcano at will?

Wow this thread got Godwin’d, derailed, and plenty of irrelevant posts in no time at all.

To the OP’s point: actually the attacker and defender are following the same LoS rules. It’s just that the area of effect can be “folded” over the edge, while the LoS in the oppisite direction can’t break that edge.

Quells.2498:

The short answer is because you have to take the risk of attacking otherwise it wouldn’t be an interesting interaction.

wut? What’s the point of having defensive structures with WALLS instead of a closed building that forces you to come out? Absurd reasoning.

Daendur.2357:

get out of that keep and fight.

Because 1 v zerg makes so much sense.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Your working under, what I feel, is a misconception that thieves are intended to defend walls.

I don’t see “top of wall mastery” on any profession’s description of traits. Is there some particular reason why they SHOULDN’T be able to fire down from a wall? Other than the obvious one at the beginning of this post.

Quells.2498:

WvW isn’t modeled after real war it’s modeled to provide interesting decisions as often as possible.

Yes. Running in circles and performing the same actions repeatedly for years on end are “interesting decisions.” Please. Who are you kidding?

Yet, I know for a fact that you can shoot down from the wall on said profession. So do not imply I said you cannot. But it sure is reasonable in my opinion, that it shouldn’t be a thief strong suit, and other professions are better at it.

As long as you can approach other players unseen and stab them in the back, or run away quicker then other professions, unseen, when a fight goes south for you, I have no sypathy for you. Nor do I feel the wall mechanics should be changed to favor you.

OP isn’t arguing about how effective his thief is, he’s arguing about targeting mechanics concerning walls……

Change “thief” to “ele” if that’ll help you understand him more.

The new HoT maps are apparently trying to resolve some of these issues though, so give it a month and we’ll see if it’s any different.

Quells.2498:

The short answer is because you have to take the risk of attacking otherwise it wouldn’t be an interesting interaction.

If you want to discuss a mechanic that’s fine but I humbly suggest not assuming you know so much about design that you can lecture professional designers about something. It’s poor form.

This completely reasonable response utterly fails once the number of attackers blankets the wall in an unending mass of intersecting red circles, unrestrained by coolddowns or anything else. The combination of precise positioning and 2 second casts (staff ele) means I get to sit out the assault in the center of the tower until they rush in.

tldr I’m really tired of being focused down or falling off the fricking wall while trying to find a casting position for my first attack.

The OP has a completely valid point.

Quells.2498:

Well first of all this isn’t oppression or a communist state so you can tone it down a bit. Secondly, WvW isn’t modeled after real war it’s modeled to provide interesting decisions as often as possible.

(A bit offtopic but…)
WVW isnt modeled after real war.. who in is mind build towers on valleys and with several higher hills, and a ton of gates that where some will not get covered, to make the job very easy to the enemy?
WvW map design was really awfull with the cap and leave shrine system.

WvW is modeled to be fast, repetitive, and very easy, like Alliance Battles were.

Ven Zehn.6573:

OP isn’t arguing about how effective his thief is, he’s arguing about targeting mechanics concerning walls……

Change “thief” to “ele” if that’ll help you understand him more.

The new HoT maps are apparently trying to resolve some of these issues though, so give it a month and we’ll see if it’s any different.

Finally, someone who understood the inital point, which I thought the OP made clear just by the title of this thread…..one apparently quite a few didn’t bother to read.

It IS bad design, ANET is even trying to correct it, so they acknowledge it is bad design. Imagine that someone without a developers background apparently can talk about stuff like this and have a valid point. <rolls eyes>

wyther.8372:

Ven Zehn.6573:

OP isn’t arguing about how effective his thief is, he’s arguing about targeting mechanics concerning walls……

Change “thief” to “ele” if that’ll help you understand him more.

The new HoT maps are apparently trying to resolve some of these issues though, so give it a month and we’ll see if it’s any different.

Finally, someone who understood the inital point, which I thought the OP made clear just by the title of this thread…..one apparently quite a few didn’t bother to read.

It IS bad design, ANET is even trying to correct it, so they acknowledge it is bad design. Imagine that someone without a developers background apparently can talk about stuff like this and have a valid point. <rolls eyes>

I don’t know why you’re stating “Finally” when others (myself included) have agreed already. You do make a point I failed to state earlier in the thread in that the walls are intended to be too high to effectively pepper with circles, though I’ve not had the opportunity to see this for myself – is there a player here who can test/confirm this please?

dancingmonkey.4902:

Jski.6180:

Quells.2498:

Well first of all this isn’t oppression or a communist state so you can tone it down a bit. Secondly, WvW isn’t modeled after real war it’s modeled to provide interesting decisions as often as possible.

It is just in a different world with a set of rules of its own. You would find most things that work in real life’s wars should apply to wvw well realty all RvR types of games. The reason why is that humans are still playing and they will still act like humans in any world or set of rules. War as far as we know is mostly a human thing with some other species too but that it (i think its other primates and ants).
You not going to kill ppl on walls or out of reach unless the person on the wall messes up badly. When you fighting a person on a wall or something you cant hit them on well your not just fighting the person but your fighting the land it self.

The fallacy here is discussing this in terms of real world war. Last I checked, real fighter cannot literally go invisible right in front of you, stop bleeding from blowing a warhorn, or shoot earth, water, wind, or fire out of a stick in their hands.

You literally get hit by a volcano when on a wall, and the biggest complaint in a reality comparison, was the fact that someone touched you? Not that they created a volcano at will?

They can by making you unable to see them with things like flash bangs. There a lot more to combat then what you can do to your self there a lot of what you can do to the other person.

I’m still waiting for OP to provide the illustration.

The OP is right. The same is true on an ele, has nothing to do with thief. A very bad design (most likely wasn’t made for WvW like most other things). The projectiles should originate where they are visually depicted, not under your foot.

Sometimes im jealous on the archers on top. They dont have to stand on the outter lip of a wall to shoot people down like players have to. Completely valid point of OP.

Offair.2563:

Sometimes im jealous on the archers on top. They dont have to stand on the outter lip of a wall to shoot people down like players have to. Completely valid point of OP.

You know what? That actually put it in a good perspective. I can get on board with how the lip of the wall, being an issue.

There’s no interesting decision made when you can attack without the threat of retaliation. It’s just basic design. I don’t know how else to say it. The only thing I could say to back up your argument is that if the player feels it’s unfair, even if it’s not, then the interaction needs to be changed in some way that better communicates the intent.