Guild Wars 2

Sovereign.1093:

GuardianOMS.8067:

I’m not sure if you know this Sov (do you mind if I call you Sov?), or have been to one, but fight club stops if there is a big attack going on. Now, big attack can be defined differently. Like losing SE tower when you still have East keep is a minimal threat, but losing a northern tower is a bigger deal (unless the match is a blowout).

Anyway the point is like I said before, fight club is usually done when nothing is happening. Between defense and offense. Just being someone is not in the game at the gery moment and not going down with a sunken ship does not mean they do mot “server their server”.

Duelists take up space only if they duel when there is something at stake. This is not the circumstance you mentioned when the duel stops when necessary. It is like party A vs Party B. Garrison is under seige w/ 20 percent at outer wall. Party A and B are happily fighting irrespective of the circumstance. If any players from party A or B die, they don’t assist nor do they defend in the garrison battle, they return to their duel spot, and re-comense their hostilities. In this instance, they are not helping their server in WVW. The team of party A or B could have defended or taken that Garison as the case may be. And a person who sees them will certainly put the blame on them, even if having them there or not would have made a difference or not.

Now whether it is allowed, is well yes. You can sleep their for 24/7. Just making sure to do something when the timer starts to count, or auto cast a buff. but again, this is my opinion, you do what you want because you bought this game for your own reasons.

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I’m no longer supposed to reply to you because of my previous posts, where I’m supposed to drop this topic all together. And yes, people call me sov, so it is okay to call me that.

p.s. as we can’t read each other’s minds, the next best thing is via our action.

If you were my friend, and you asked for my help, and i helped you. You might think, I did it because i like you.

If you were my friend, and you asked for my help at a project, but i didn’t help you – by not contributing and by partying instead. You might think i did it because i didn’t care about you.

Let’s say on either case, I like you. You’d be suspicious of my like now in terms of circumstance number 2 as evidenced by my actions right?

Me personally? It wouldnt matter to me if you went out partying when I asked for your help, that’s your prerogative. Edit: Are you saying you want to be friends? I like friends! I don’t move to the assumption that someone doesn’t care about something or won’t server something just because in one moment in time, they chose to follow their own interests. I say this out of personal experience, not to spite you, because it actually has happened to me on several occasions.

And I did say it before, in my first post and to a reply to you I stated the circumstance were people who were “partying” during down time, not during “finals.” Another point should be made that not ever tower or supply camp is SO important at every given moment that you need to drop what you’re doing and go defend it.

Edit: to many errors. My phone thinks every time I say serve I mean server. Whatever, Samsung.

Fact is those people 90% of the time are probably among your most productive players so I wouldn’t hate on them for it. If you go for the points 24/7, you will burn yourself out on the game. PvP and GvG are a nice change of pace until viable alternatives are added in.

TheGreatA.4192:

Fact is those people 90% of the time are probably among your most productive players so I wouldn’t hate on them for it.

Also this. The people on my server that participate in fight clubs are hands down the majority of the regulars to WvW when kitten is goin’ down. That’s why I’m trying to wrap my head around this “defend or get out” or “play how I want you to play” talk.

So now people arent allowed to look for fair and fun PvP fights in a PvP zone. Everything has to be done the “most efficient way”. Zerg up and serve your server. Fun is which way ?
<—— ?
?——->

I don’t know why you guys are talking about zerging. Even the developers have stated that zerging isn’t the best way to win in world vs. world. The best groups I’ve been in were small and could take on huge numbers, which created openings for keep sieges that otherwise wouldn’t be possible. Other great groups I’ve been in were split into small forces that took multiple keeps at once, making objectives much more difficult to defend for a mindless zerg.

By the way, I love dueling and arena-style matches. I was a gladiator (top 0.5 percent of arenas) for multiple seasons in World of Warcraft, and I dueled a lot in that game. I just know it has no place in world vs. world because it detracts from the zone’s purpose.

The weirdest part about this thread is how objectively bad the arguments in support of this kind of behavior are so far. Every critical response in this thread has been some variation of a straw man, ad hominem, or appeal to authority.

In a Q&A released just now, Colin Johanson said, "For the jumping puzzle, I would prefer that it would not be in the WvW map and have it be a separate thing. I think it takes up the queue space and disconnects players trying to get in. How we answer that is going to be interesting, but in the long run it’s very likely it’s going to stay as it is.

…

I think for the jumping puzzle, I would prefer that it not be in the WvW map and it’s a separate thing that. Especially when there’s a queue like that and people are trying to get in. I think it disconnects players from the content they’re trying to play. How we answer that is going to be interesting. There’s a lot of different ways that we can separate them now, but I think in the long run it’s very unlikely that it will stay in the WvW map where it’s eating up population queue. It will go somewhere else. We’ll have to figure out the best way to do that."

Interesting twist. It seems I’m in the right with this thread.

I guess bad players should be against the tos too.

Lopez.7369:

Interesting twist. It seems I’m in the right with this thread.

You’re not really right, you’re talking about duels, not jumping puzzle, and they are not the same as each other. For one, obviously, one is PvE and the other is PvP. Players have been screaming to get the JPs out of WvW for months. The only reason people have been comparing it in this thread is because it’s a choice people can make in WvW.

But if you think people fighting across servers is the same in terms of taking up space as jumping to a chest on a daily basis, then you should really take off those foggy glasses you’re wearing.

Honestly i do not mind the dueling, it can be fun. You can pick up new tricks when fighting people you could never have fought before: (due to culling, or never being on the same map)

Also I am all sure on your tiers there are guilds that you have seen that have excelled at 1v1 or 1v numerous: So it can be a little nice to ask them to duel and pick up some new tricks from the fights. And in some of my servers set up duels, we have bantered back and forth on tricks on how to beat something that just killed us in a duel. It can be a nice learning experience.

Lopez.7369:

I saw this earlier. It was just a bunch of people dueling from two servers dueling each other.

From what I saw in map chat, it was directly hurting our efforts in the rest of the map. These were people who were essentially taking up a world vs. world slot while failing to contribute in any way to the group. It’s basically the equivalent to people AFK botting in a battleground in other games.

It’s due to the serious lack of PvP resources from Anet. No Dueling option and no GvG is why you see players using WvW areas. You complain as if this should be punished vs properly yelling at Anet to provide proper game play options.

Lopez.7369:

I’m not here to argue about it; I’m more interested in an official response.

Then you probably shoulda used official channels.

If there was a queue for you on the map, then I can understand your frustration.

If there wasn’t, then the point is moot.

In either case, no-one is obligated to play the way you want them to, and your server was not adversely impacted by this practice in any meaningful way.

The BG/Kaineng/TC match-up has been one marked by a high level of cross-server respect and sportsmanship (please note the 3 week long match-up thread with nearly 2k post and over 60k views).

That has a positive impact on WvW in general.

Lopez.7369:

I don’t know why you guys are talking about zerging. Even the developers have stated that zerging isn’t the best way to win in world vs. world. The best groups I’ve been in were small and could take on huge numbers, which created openings for keep sieges that otherwise wouldn’t be possible. Other great groups I’ve been in were split into small forces that took multiple keeps at once, making objectives much more difficult to defend for a mindless zerg.

By the way, I love dueling and arena-style matches. I was a gladiator (top 0.5 percent of arenas) for multiple seasons in World of Warcraft, and I dueled a lot in that game. I just know it has no place in world vs. world because it detracts from the zone’s purpose.

The weirdest part about this thread is how objectively bad the arguments in support of this kind of behavior are so far. Every critical response in this thread has been some variation of a straw man, ad hominem, or appeal to authority.

You must be new, duels happen all the time and on most servers. Until they add a system for duels or a arena that is NOT spvp, these get gatherings for duels will continue to happen. A lot of people like to test their builds or 5v5 groups against other guilds.

Oh and no one care about World of Warcrap. I myself was #1 player in that game for anything and everything.

I use wvw for harvesting and hunting wabbits. All those silly zergs are a nuisance

Krakah.3582:

It’s due to the serious lack of PvP resources from Anet. No Dueling option and no GvG is why you see players using WvW areas.

Probably, but it doesn’t justify the bad behavior from players.

Lopez.7369:

Krakah.3582:

It’s due to the serious lack of PvP resources from Anet. No Dueling option and no GvG is why you see players using WvW areas.

Probably, but it doesn’t justify the bad behavior from players.

Sorry, must have missed something. What “bad” behavior?

As far as I’m aware, every tier has this. A lot of players feel this is actually healthy for the community, as well as for the rivalrys. It’s organized, not random (usually), so what? How is this considered bad behavior? No cheating or exploiting is happening, so where’s the fault?

People can enjoy the game and play it how they choose. Telling them to stop is pretty rude. I know, I know, you’re going to tell me that them dueling and taking up spots is rude. The catch is there is no method for dueling in this game. I have seen only two player created methods for dueling: this, and going to 5vs5 sPvP matches.

Moral of the story? Players are working around game mechanics to create duels. Rather than complain about the players you should work on getting Arenanet to change the core problem. They need to include duels into the game. Clearly there is a part of the population that wants it.

Saying players enjoy it is hilariously fallacious. Players enjoy botting in games too, and others enjoy griefing. That doesn’t make it right.

The fact is this directly hurts WvW efforts. But don’t take my word for it. Colin Johanson is the one who complained about people taking queue spaces.

Fight clubs are not against the rules.

If you have a problem with it you can run a zerg into the fight club and ‘ruin’ it, which is also not against the rules.

Lopez.7369:

The fact is this directly hurts WvW efforts. But don’t take my word for it. Colin Johanson is the one who complained about people taking queue spaces.

Was there a wait in queue at the time?

Yes. It took me 15 minutes to get in. Not only that, but apparently our forces actually fighting were stretched so thin that Kaineng managed to take a bunch of points on the map.

Lopez.7369:

Saying players enjoy it is hilariously fallacious. Players enjoy botting in games too, and others enjoy griefing. That doesn’t make it right.

The fact is this directly hurts WvW efforts. But don’t take my word for it. Colin Johanson is the one who complained about people taking queue spaces.

Waitwait, you’re comparing dueling to botting and griefing? Now THAT’S funny.

Lopez.7369:

I saw this earlier. It was just a bunch of people dueling from two servers dueling each other.

From what I saw in map chat, it was directly hurting our efforts in the rest of the map. These were people who were essentially taking up a world vs. world slot while failing to contribute in any way to the group. It’s basically the equivalent to people AFK botting in a battleground in other games.

And yet there you are, doing a jumping puzzle in WvW.

Irony.

Pentzski.4620:

Waitwait, you’re comparing dueling to botting and griefing? Now THAT’S funny.

Yes. Botting in battlegrounds/warzones/warfronts is actually a perfect comparison. PvP botters are people who take up a slot and contribute little-to-nothing to a group and justify their actions with selfish reasons.

Auesis.7301:

Lopez.7369:

I saw this earlier. It was just a bunch of people dueling from two servers dueling each other.

From what I saw in map chat, it was directly hurting our efforts in the rest of the map. These were people who were essentially taking up a world vs. world slot while failing to contribute in any way to the group. It’s basically the equivalent to people AFK botting in a battleground in other games.

And yet there you are, doing a jumping puzzle in WvW.

Irony.

That’s not irony; it’s a coincidence. Your point also isn’t valid; it’s a straw man and ad hominem rolled into one.

Lopez.7369:

Auesis.7301:

Lopez.7369:

I saw this earlier. It was just a bunch of people dueling from two servers dueling each other.

From what I saw in map chat, it was directly hurting our efforts in the rest of the map. These were people who were essentially taking up a world vs. world slot while failing to contribute in any way to the group. It’s basically the equivalent to people AFK botting in a battleground in other games.

And yet there you are, doing a jumping puzzle in WvW.

Irony.

That’s not irony; it’s a coincidence. Your point also isn’t valid; it’s a straw man and ad hominem rolled into one.

It’s perfectly valid. You’re complaining that these people are not contributing to your server’s effort in the battlefield, yet you are doing precisely that by being in the jumping puzzle to begin with.

Fror.2163:

Where are these rules that the OP speaks about?

Rules?!

This is war, anything goes!

But it would be nice if ANet gave us a designated dueling area with a proper dueling system. I’ve been dying to duel my mate for ages.

Auesis.7301:

It’s perfectly valid. You’re complaining that these people are not contributing to your server’s effort in the battlefield, yet you are doing precisely that by being in the jumping puzzle to begin with.

I don’t think you know what a straw man or ad hominem is, so I’ll put it another way: Whether the jumping puzzle is good or bad has no relevance with whether dueling is good or bad. Maybe doing the jumping puzzle is bad, but that doesn’t justify dueling in any way.

Also, you’re making a big assumption by saying I was in the jumping puzzle to do it. Maybe I was there to duel. Maybe I was there to kill the duelers. Maybe I just wanted the screenshot. Who knows?

Lopez.7369:

Auesis.7301:

It’s perfectly valid. You’re complaining that these people are not contributing to your server’s effort in the battlefield, yet you are doing precisely that by being in the jumping puzzle to begin with.

I don’t think you know what a straw man or ad hominem is, so I’ll put it another way: Whether the jumping puzzle is good or bad has no relevance with whether dueling is good or bad. Maybe doing the jumping puzzle is bad, but that doesn’t justify dueling in any way.

Also, you’re making a big assumption by saying I was in the jumping puzzle to do it. Maybe I was there to duel. Maybe I was there to kill the duelers. Maybe I just wanted the screenshot. Who knows?

Your missing Auesis’ point. You’re complaining about dueling taking up valuable que space and those people not contributing to the server’s wvw. Yet, there you are, in the JP, taking up que space, and not contributing to your server’s wvw. Irony not missed on us.

Well Lopez doesn’t refute the validity of JPs or PvE dynamic events in WvW – his only argument is that WvW duelists hurt WvW scores and progress.

For all you JP+PvE users I’d like to add in that structured WvW dynamic events give WvW players and a world clear advantages – Badges and Blueprints (and Vet defense / attack mobs).

I think we need to clearly point out the pros and cons of dueling in a WvW zone and whether or not it actually hurts a server as Lopez is saying.

Dueling Pros:
A) helps improve morale
B) helps to refine 1v1 1v2 2v2 and small group synergy and tactics
C) is the only PvP option for cross world interaction other than WvW

Dueling Cons:
A) takes up space on the world without giving defense / offense to the world
B) generates no income for the world (supply running / badges / blueprints)

Those are the 5 pros and cons I can see – discuss now people

VoxShatterfall.5470:

Well Lopez doesn’t refute the validity of JPs or PvE dynamic events in WvW – his only argument is that WvW duelists hurt WvW scores and progress.

For all you JP+PvE users I’d like to add in that structured WvW dynamic events give WvW players and a world clear advantages – Badges and Blueprints (and Vet defense / attack mobs).

I think we need to clearly point out the pros and cons of dueling in a WvW zone and whether or not it actually hurts a server as Lopez is saying.

Dueling Pros:
A) helps improve morale
B) helps to refine 1v1 1v2 2v2 and small group synergy and tactics
C) is the only PvP option for cross world interaction other than WvW

Dueling Cons:
A) takes up space on the world without giving defense / offense to the world
B) generates no income for the world (supply running / badges / blueprints)

Those are the 5 pros and cons I can see – discuss now people

Good post.

I think the cons outweigh the pros, considering WvW was never meant to do B and C. Dueling hurts within the established framework of WvW.

Well I say if ANET rules against it they will implement a “coexist disabling” rule where multiple worlds players all in a spot will be highlighted in a dynamic event – that would be ANETs way of saying dueling isn’t allowed.

I do disagree with you saying B is unnecessary: there is no way to do build and tactics training on a small group scale other than to be thrown into a fire in current WvW objective seeking.

I say C is rather unnecessary as it is indicative of an outside problem not a WvW problem (I don’t say it shouldn’t be done, I’m just saying that this pro does not help a world whatsoever).

I do also think we need to really clear up how much damage a dueler actually does to a server via points A and B, how much does 20 slots really take up? How much is 1 badge worth for combat effectiveness keep defense and siege offence.

get over it OP, not everyone in the game wants to run around in a group of 20+ spamming 1 in hopes to hit the invisible enemy or gives two kittens about the wvw score that glorifies a servers ability to zerg.

if you don’t like it, don’t take part in it. simple. i don’t take part in, calling out /tower/keeps/camps being attacked, rezing randoms (unless its for the daily), repairing walls, manning/placing siege,, following/rallying at a commander like mindless zombie ect the list goes on…. why? because i don’t like it.

Lopez.7369:

VoxShatterfall.5470:

Well Lopez doesn’t refute the validity of JPs or PvE dynamic events in WvW – his only argument is that WvW duelists hurt WvW scores and progress.

For all you JP+PvE users I’d like to add in that structured WvW dynamic events give WvW players and a world clear advantages – Badges and Blueprints (and Vet defense / attack mobs).

I think we need to clearly point out the pros and cons of dueling in a WvW zone and whether or not it actually hurts a server as Lopez is saying.

Dueling Pros:
A) helps improve morale
B) helps to refine 1v1 1v2 2v2 and small group synergy and tactics
C) is the only PvP option for cross world interaction other than WvW

Dueling Cons:
A) takes up space on the world without giving defense / offense to the world
B) generates no income for the world (supply running / badges / blueprints)

Those are the 5 pros and cons I can see – discuss now people

Good post.

I think the cons outweigh the pros, considering WvW was never meant to do B and C. Dueling hurts within the established framework of WvW.

So you’re saying that WvW was and is only meant for zerg vs zerg? There will never be 1v1 or 1v2 fights when running solo for supply or getting to a tower/keep for defense? Also when scouting ahead with only 2-3 people to take a camp before the zerg shows up or just for yak slapping. How about 2-3 poeple just flipping camps to take pressure off places. These people will never run into same size numbers and have to fight them?

Dueling lets you learn you class better than in PvE or Spvp where things are different. A NPC cannot change tactics on you, they cannot ambush you without you being ready. Spvp…. well that place is just dumb, I enjoy it for awhile but not the same in any way as WvW. Dueling makes you aware of what your class can and cannot do. If you think dueling has no place in WvW, come out to a duel and see how you do, you’ll learn fast on how you need to change from just spamming #1 within a zerg.

Nope, I never said that. Straw man.

Lopez.7369:

Nope, I never said that. Straw man.

Well I’m going to take that as you understanding that dueling has it’s places in WvW and can end this thread, or you could try to defend your point of view and have a discussion like adults.

Oh and for your straw man remark, you did say “considering WvW was never meant to do B and C” so learn to use the term.

I used the term correctly. You just added a layer to my post, which plainly said world vs. world is not there to let you refine your skills through dueling. That’s what made your post a straw man.

Also, adults aren’t supposed to argue from fallacies or acknowledge them as real arguments. (In theory, anyway. This thread is a good example of how susceptible the masses are to emotional appeals.)

Nozdormu.4352:

Nobody in this thread agrees with OP except me it seems I’m sure it’s not against the rules, but that doesn’t mean it’s a nice thing to do. The other day I was losing a keep in home border, and couldn’t call in reinforcements because the border was already full. Turns out a 20 man guild zerg was busy doing a JP instead of helping us, so we lost the keep.

If OP’s border was full at the time they were dueling, they should have found an empty border to do it. If there was no queue, however, let them duel all they want

What next? Complaining that people don’t follow the zerg and go on doing what they think is best instead?

Lopez.7369

If not in World vs World, where then shall people refine their skills, and learn to play their class for small scale fights? Spvp, as i said, is completely different. You cannot make the same build with the same stats.

learning to fight (or refining) your skills in WvW is necessary to be the best you can be at your class. Duels are the best way to do this.

Also I did add onto your post, because you can assume that the reason people duel is to improve their abilities to fight for small scale, but then I proceeded to explain way “B) helps to refine 1v1 1v2 2v2 and small group synergy and tactics” is needed in WvW

Hence my argument was not a straw man, guess I’m not an adult.

Just sounds like someone who lacks the ability to compete on this level getting upset at those who can; trying to make it so no one can, to lessen the evidence of their own inadequacies.

So…..i guess you had nothing better to do then? Like, go get a whole bunch of your guys and go wipe them while they are dueling. No problem with doing that is there? Thats the risk you take doing the dueling in WvW and they know that. Or you could gather a bunch more of your friends and instead of complaining about dueling, take it to your advantage and go take some towers, garrisons and keeps. End of story.

Tricare.2946:

Lopez.7369

If not in World vs World, where then shall people refine their skills, and learn to play their class for small scale fights? Spvp, as i said, is completely different. You cannot make the same build with the same stats.

learning to fight (or refining) your skills in WvW is necessary to be the best you can be at your class. Duels are the best way to do this.

I never said people shouldn’t refine their skills in small-scale fights. I said they shouldn’t do it through dueling.

And dueling is not the best way to learn how to play; dueling actually makes a lot of people fairly predictable. That’s why so many people who are good at duels in other games ended up being terrible at the competitive PvP that matters, such as arenas and rated battlegrounds.

Either way, keeping the framework of world vs. world stable is much more important to world vs. world as a gameplay mode than allowing players to improve individual skill.

Lopez.7369

I will have to disagree that dueling makes people predictable. I hope you’re not comparing GW2 to WoW. Duel improves and adds onto ones abilities and makes them think about their class. I’m sure if we did some sweet study to see how well duelers did while roaming and how people who never dueled once did. I’m sure we would see that the duelers know how to fight much better.

Keeping the framework of world vs. world is important, being better at your class and winning fights will help in the long run, I could post videos on how I have killed 1v3 while taking a camp or of a 5v15 and winning because we know how to work well together because of dueling and training in WvW. Being able to win and take that camp even with defenders will add more points to the board for their server in the long run.

Dueling is not necessary for improvement, and it hurts the server as a whole. Other ways of improvement can actually help a server. That’s the point.

Besides, you’re just showing an example of sample bias. Those same people who became good through dueling would become good through other means if dueling wasn’t an option. That’s how good players work.

Good players would be good without dueling. The best players in the game will find every possible way to improve themselves.

Dueling does not hurt the server as a whole. As I said camp taking, yak slapping, and stopping/stalling reinforcements will be easier the better the player is. Most duels take place after Friday/Saturday when there are no ques for borderlands, in turn does nothing to the server as a whole.

I don’t think we are having an objective discussion here – as neither side wants to really value each of the valid points made earlier… (pro C is taken out due to it not really being a plus for WvW)

Dueling Pros:
A) helps improve morale
Morale is a very important factor in WvW especially for smaller servers with heavily used guilds and teams. Downtime formed in WvW allows cross server relaxation with adequate difficulty to “decompress” from stressful situations. Stress as reported by a University’s students ranked higher as an impediment than sleep difficulties to students (it may be safe to say a correlation between sleep ineffectiveness can be made to stress ineffectiveness). Without effective sleep one gets around a 80% effectiveness and has the possibility of making a major mistake once an hour or catastrophic mistake once every 8 hours. With unmanaged stress the same could apply. Catastrophic = player out of commission on a critical duty assignment – this can lead to a camp being taken or a few other players getting wiped (cost 5 players or 10 ppt). Quantified we call unmanaged stress per player up to 10 ppt for up to 10 important duty posts (camps, towers, keeps, and armies) leading to a 100 ppt deficit. Dueling can (not does) help manage stress and increases outcomes on important duty posts for participants. With Dueling I estimate that up to 50 ppt can be recovered for stressed out players who have important duty posts (if all 10 duty posted people participate in dueling).

B) helps to refine 1v1 1v2 2v2 and small group synergy and tactics
Team efficiency is VERY important for small party raids and objective seeking. Each small party can easily maintain 5 ppt by capping camps before a tick, this is up to a maximum of 15 ppt (3 camps captured before tick). Small party training can help a small group score victory over defenders of camps on an equal number basis – improving ones combat efficiency by 50% (personal view) leading to a 50% more damage, or 50% mitigated damage by foes. This in turn decreases fight time of Small v Small battles to around 1-2 mins instead of 4-5 minutes for random teams making a single strike team more effective at flipping camps by around 33%. This would lead to a 5 ppt gain overall.

Dueling Cons:
A) takes up space on the world without giving defense / offense to the world
WvW can accomodate around 600 players per the 4 maps meaning around 50 players per team per map. 10 duelers for each side would cut effective numbers to 75% strength lessening the ppt gain or defending their ppt gain. Attacking armies effectivness will be around 75% strength where as defenders may suffer as much as a 35% strength equivalent (when a world army is spread out to cover all of its assets). This will directly hamper large ppt by important posts by up to 5 ppt per post (same as pro A, there are 10 important posts). This is up to a 50 ppt deficit.

B) generates no income for the world (supply running / badges / blueprints)
Damage and efficiency from sieges is very helpful for siege and defense, simply put you can’t just throw bodies at a solution which requires siege. Siege allow 1 person to be as effective as a party of players (5x strength efficiency). Note that with this said a player who participates in wvw resource runs / contributes badges to the cause can generate up to 1 siege an hour upping their effectiveness of a single person by 400% for a 30 minute duration (for defense at least). This leads to an effective strength increase of around 4% for a server of 50 players or more for a lower population server. Inherently shaves minutes off a siege or can contribute to stopping a siege. Considering that a siege can net around 10 ppt and having 5 more minutes lets you attack more targets (most good sieges take around 15 minutes to do with enough sieges or 20 minutes without) thats an effective gain of 3 ppt or 3 ppt deficit to the other team. This requires at least 10 players to contribute 10 sieges per hour.

Anywho – the bottom line there are costs associated with doing dueling.

Not all stressed out duty post players will participate in dueling, in fact I think only 20% may conduct dueling – this does not bode well for recovery of points with a 10 ppt recovery of deficit combine with a 5 ptt of capping efficiency for a +15 ppt (up to).

Conversely not all duty post players will abandon their posts to go duel, the deficit for this alone is around 10 ppt, and enough seiges are donated for the war effort per hour for the 40 left over players that the 10 players are not missed much.

So in my book:
Dueling contributes up to 15 ppt where as diminishes 10 ppt for an assumed dueling population of 10 per server.

forgot to add- argue about my math and methods for quantifying certain ppt effects.

I directly quantify server effectiveness to PPT – if there is another metric in this we can discuss it here as well.

Yeah…… what VoxShatterfall.5470 said….

Fror.2163:

Where are these rules that the OP speaks about?

The first rule of Dueling Club is you never speak about Dueling Club.

Personally, I do not do this, but if anyone wants to duel, let them. It is a game. Go have fun.

If you are upset that people are doing it on your current server, go someplace else.