- Yawn* Better off playing pokemon than spending 6 hours mindlessly wasting time playing siege vs siege. Actually turning on the stove and touching it over and over again would be more entertaining than that…
Complain about ACs doing too much damage so it is difficult to cap defended objectives then proceed to gripe about PPT not being fun and grumble about PvD.
If you don’t like ACs or defenders, go to EotM. Yeah can’t do that because only scrubs play there. If you want pure group on group fights without the pesky objectives, you can go to Sanctum. Oh yeah almost nobody goes there.
Please stop showing up to a baseball game then complaining that it isn’t football. Oh and this thread was started by one of the biggest PvD commanders in the game. Nothing wrong with PvD but don’t try and twist a request for more PvD into something else.
(edited by Straegen.2938)
- Yawn* Better off playing pokemon than spending 6 hours mindlessly wasting time playing siege vs siege. Actually turning on the stove and touching it over and over again would be more entertaining than that…
Complain about ACs doing too much damage so it is difficult to cap defended objectives then proceed to gripe about PPT not being fun and grumble about PvD.
If you don’t like ACs or defenders, go to EotM. Yeah can’t do that because only scrubs play there. If you want pure group on group fights without the pesky objectives, you can go to Sanctum. Oh yeah nobody goes there.
Please stop showing up to a baseball game then complaining that it isn’t football.
What? It has NEVER been too hard to defend. Defending has always been the easiest thing to do in WvW. There is just no reason to do so. Why defend when you can keep having fun fights in the field w/o ACS and get all the bags you want or PvD , kill some NPCs and get a chest? You dont get reward for defending anything. And Let’s be honest here, to actually win means you avoided fights, PvD and siege humped better than the other team.. Do you really WANT Bragging rights for that? Hell that makes you want to put a bag over your head.
EotM is just killing uplevels, talk about boring.. Players want to fight ACTUAL players that can fight, not people would die when you blow on them. Players want to figth other players not players vs siege, players vs nubs, players vs NPC.. No TY. There are games with better AI than that if I get that bored.
I don’t think you get why players are hanging out in the field brawling instead…
Have you ever played Eve online or Darkfall? THAT is what PvP is about.
Best fights in WvW are when all your walls and doors are down on your keep, all servers have the map queued and are up in the LORDS brawling it out for hours without siege. That way, if you win you felt like you earned it and if you lose, it was a great fight.
THAT is what made wvw fun, not siege humping zergs lol. If you are a worthy opponent, you do not need a crutch.
(edited by lil devils x.6071)
YB isn’t a T1 server. You can be happy you got rid of them. In T1, before YB, there was better wvw going on.
The kitten started with the gigantic ego of one specific player from BG, not with “T1”.
Attacking a defended objective is supposed to be difficult and require tactics. Showing up and beating their heads against a gate or wall while under ACs doesn’t mean ACs are OP.
No Dear YB Siegecreeper, Your ACS can’t be cleared even with Ele metors, Hump more
Kalkz you just made my point. Next time build a ballista, counter ac or a treb first and clear the siege. Having followed you for a long time on BP and fighting against your zerg on YB, I know exactly what you do. Show up and if it is easy flip it otherwise move on or come back with a half dozen golems (something you don’t do much anymore). YB is taking advantage of enemy server’s laziness.
Stop being siege meat bags and put a little thought into a flip when it has defenders.
I don’t think you get it… You are not fighting a couple of ACs here… you are fighting a zerg on siege with ACs, balis, cats, generators and trebs vs a smaller group outside, siege all placed to counter/ cover existing siege . Welcome to the new garbage player WvW post HoT siege humping zergs now equipped with airships and fog.. LOL
This IS the current state of WvW. So much for the fun days of knocking on the door just trying to get the kids to come out and play to have fun.. They just want to sit their lazy rears on siege and never step outside anymore. The players who actually wanted to have fun left already. * Yawn* Better off playing pokemon than spending 6 hours mindlessly wasting time playing siege vs siege. Actually turning on the stove and touching it over and over again would be more entertaining than that…
That is the current state of WvW in T1 apparently but not everywhere.
Your right, MOST servers do not have zergs anymore as it is, so many do not realize that if it can be done by the individual, it can be done by the zerg TO the individual.
T1 problems are problems that you all created yourself to the detriment of the servers below you so I have no sympathy for you. Why don’t you manipulate things again so YB drops(causing chaos below you again)?
Maybe you should stop living in your own short sighted bubble and realize that there are other players in tiers that don’t have your problems and it’s not because of a lack of zergs.No sympathy
No, T1 problems are what happens if the game had population on all servers. You see, T1 just shows what happens where you have the most players. If the game mode was healthy, EVERY server would be like T1. It is a warning of what is to come when they mush together all the dead servers and still have the same PPT valued scoring system rewarding siege humping and ignoring PvP player skill. In the end you only get siege wars with zergs. PvP players leave the game bored and that is all that gets left in it.
I was actually stupid enough to contemplate transferring to T1 so I did some research. The reason I didn’t transfer was because of a completely different culture than what I wanted. Your problems are your problems not because of T1 having the highest population but because of your culture.
Attacking a defended objective is supposed to be difficult and require tactics. Showing up and beating their heads against a gate or wall while under ACs doesn’t mean ACs are OP.
No Dear YB Siegecreeper, Your ACS can’t be cleared even with Ele metors, Hump more
Kalkz you just made my point. Next time build a ballista, counter ac or a treb first and clear the siege. Having followed you for a long time on BP and fighting against your zerg on YB, I know exactly what you do. Show up and if it is easy flip it otherwise move on or come back with a half dozen golems (something you don’t do much anymore). YB is taking advantage of enemy server’s laziness.
Stop being siege meat bags and put a little thought into a flip when it has defenders.
I don’t think you get it… You are not fighting a couple of ACs here… you are fighting a zerg on siege with ACs, balis, cats, generators and trebs vs a smaller group outside, siege all placed to counter/ cover existing siege . Welcome to the new garbage player WvW post HoT siege humping zergs now equipped with airships and fog.. LOL
This IS the current state of WvW. So much for the fun days of knocking on the door just trying to get the kids to come out and play to have fun.. They just want to sit their lazy rears on siege and never step outside anymore. The players who actually wanted to have fun left already. * Yawn* Better off playing pokemon than spending 6 hours mindlessly wasting time playing siege vs siege. Actually turning on the stove and touching it over and over again would be more entertaining than that…
That is the current state of WvW in T1 apparently but not everywhere.
Your right, MOST servers do not have zergs anymore as it is, so many do not realize that if it can be done by the individual, it can be done by the zerg TO the individual.
T1 problems are problems that you all created yourself to the detriment of the servers below you so I have no sympathy for you. Why don’t you manipulate things again so YB drops(causing chaos below you again)?
Maybe you should stop living in your own short sighted bubble and realize that there are other players in tiers that don’t have your problems and it’s not because of a lack of zergs.No sympathy
No, T1 problems are what happens if the game had population on all servers. You see, T1 just shows what happens where you have the most players. If the game mode was healthy, EVERY server would be like T1. It is a warning of what is to come when they mush together all the dead servers and still have the same PPT valued scoring system rewarding siege humping and ignoring PvP player skill. In the end you only get siege wars with zergs. PvP players leave the game bored and that is all that gets left in it.
I was actually stupid enough to contemplate transferring to T1 so I did some research. The reason I didn’t transfer was because of a completely different culture than what I wanted. Your problems are your problems not because of T1 having the highest population but because of your culture.
Very mixed culture on T1, I think you misunderstand. The 3 T1 Na servers are actually not very much alike. BG was always most well organized, had good fighters and could muster an " omniblob " to be feared like no other. JQ always ran many smaller groups, sometimes couldn’t agree on the color of poo and had BG telling us we keep promising to bring a blob but could not crap one out if we tried. Commanders worked together but mostly ran separate. rarely could we muster one large group that actually functioned. TC were mostly defensive, not as good fighters as BG and bunkered on Siege much of the time, but no where near as bad as YB. YB like dies as fast as they can if they see you just so they can run back to PvD an empty tower and make sure the ACS are countered by their cats, balis and Trebs lol.
The days of scrapping it out in lords for fun letting the winner take the spoils for hours died with the introduction of zerg siege humping..
What? It has NEVER been too hard to defend. Defending has always been the easiest thing to do in WvW. There is just no reason to do so. Why defend when you can keep having fun fights in the field w/o ACS and get all the bags you want or PvD , kill some NPCs and get a chest? You dont get reward for defending anything. And Let’s be honest here, to actually win means you avoided fights, PvD and siege humped better than the other team.. Do you really WANT Bragging rights for that? Hell that makes you want to put a bag over your head.
WvW is a game with a scoring system. Do I want to win the game I am playing, yes. Do I want to create arbitrary rules to justify losing, no. Do I feel the need to brag when I do well, no. What is fun to YOU or ME may not be fun to others.
As for defending, defense is one of the most difficult aspects of this game. It has no short term rewards, there are entire structures that are effectively defenseless against well placed siege, requires servers to do unrewarding periodic maintenance, requires players willing to constantly scout, servers with less population logged on are at a tremendous disadvantage and any significantly larger force without an idiot commander can take any objective with a minimal amount of persistence. Defense is difficult which is why so few servers do it well or even attempt it. If it were “easy” everyone would do it.
What? It has NEVER been too hard to defend. Defending has always been the easiest thing to do in WvW. There is just no reason to do so. Why defend when you can keep having fun fights in the field w/o ACS and get all the bags you want or PvD , kill some NPCs and get a chest? You dont get reward for defending anything. And Let’s be honest here, to actually win means you avoided fights, PvD and siege humped better than the other team.. Do you really WANT Bragging rights for that? Hell that makes you want to put a bag over your head.
WvW is a game with a scoring system. Do I want to win the game I am playing, yes. Do I want to create arbitrary rules to justify losing, no. Do I feel the need to brag when I do well, no. What is fun to YOU or ME may not be fun to others.
As for defending, defense is one of the most difficult aspects of this game. It has no short term rewards, there are entire structures that are effectively defenseless against well placed siege, requires servers to do unrewarding periodic maintenance, requires players willing to constantly scout, servers with less population logged on are at a tremendous disadvantage and any significantly larger force without an idiot commander can take any objective with a minimal amount of persistence. Defense is difficult which is why so few servers do it well or even attempt it. If it were “easy” everyone would do it.
Yes, it is a game with a defective scoring system that punishes PvP in favor of PvD. That is what they are going to be resolving to keep it from dying.
You are SO far off on defense… If you think it is hard, you are not doing it right. It is simple really, You have a scout. The scout calls for the zerg when the other two servers start trebbing your keep from both sides… Your zerg fights the other zergs. If you are worthy to keep it, you will fight and win, if you are not, the winner takes the spoils and it was a good fight and everyone had fun in the end. No need for an asinine amount of siege. LOL
The only reason everyone ISN’T doing it is because you do not get the fun fight if you do, doesn’t feel like a win. You win and are bored. Boring game play is not why people play games, they play to have fun, if winning is boring it isn’t worth it. Everyone CAN do it, we all know how, there is a HUGE difference between capable and not wanting to do so because it spoils the fun.
(edited by lil devils x.6071)
You are SO far off on defense… If you think it is hard, you are not doing it right. It is simple really, You have a scout. The scout calls for the zerg when the other two servers start trebbing your keep from both sides… Your zerg fights the other zergs. If you are worthy to keep it, you will fight and win, if you are not, the winner takes the spoils and it was a good fight and everyone had fun in the end. No need for an asinine amount of siege. LOL
Defense is difficult when the numbers aren’t relatively even which is most of the day. Defending when a large force attacks and a friendly force is nowhere to be found is very difficult.
If a server wants to hold their objectives through the hours when the outmanned buff has been up for so long it feels permanent, hours of scouting, refreshing and planning are key to holding them. Even then if the enemy has a commander that knows how to siege and has a small amount or persistence, they will take everything a side owns.
WvW is often as much about tactics as it as about brute force and I derive a significant amount of enjoyment holding off a substantially larger force with a smaller one because the opposing commander isn’t as tactically adept.
You are SO far off on defense… If you think it is hard, you are not doing it right. It is simple really, You have a scout. The scout calls for the zerg when the other two servers start trebbing your keep from both sides… Your zerg fights the other zergs. If you are worthy to keep it, you will fight and win, if you are not, the winner takes the spoils and it was a good fight and everyone had fun in the end. No need for an asinine amount of siege. LOL
Defense is difficult when the numbers aren’t relatively even which is most of the day. Defending when a large force attacks and a friendly force is nowhere to be found is very difficult.
If a server wants to hold their objectives through the hours when the outmanned buff has been up for so long it feels permanent, hours of scouting, refreshing and planning are key to holding them. Even then if the enemy has a commander that knows how to siege and has a small amount or persistence, they will take everything a side owns.
WvW is often as much about tactics as it as about brute force and I derive a significant amount of enjoyment holding off a substantially larger force with a smaller one because the opposing commander isn’t as tactically adept.
You are supposed to be outnumbered when they attack. If both servers you are fighting don’t have their maps queued and everyone all up in your keep, you are not doing it right. THAT is what is fun about it. You have to make hard choices and enjoy the challenge of the fight. You have the advantage being close to spawn. That is why you should be expected to fight two teams at once to make it a fair fight. You should expect ALL the commanders in the fight to be seasoned fighters very well capable of commanding the fight. That way when you win you actually felt like you won something. You earned it. Otherwise why even bother to show up?
If the game was set up properly, there would be activity 24/7 on all servers in the match, not just part of them.
(edited by lil devils x.6071)
AC are fine…. You need 2 or 3 sups ac to really kill ennemy players….
1 AC alone do just nothing, it’s just good to kill proxy cata, and useless against ram. Even 2 ACs are not enough against ram. Basic AC are just useless.I’m for limiting the max siege on the same spot at 3, for every siege. This should be fine.
I think at least lowering the damage and target limit would at bring them in line, I dont have a problem with them getting a small buff in damage against siege. But In its current form, its ridiculously unbalanced especially considering how many can be used at once in an area.
Why would you want to lower the target limit?
One of the reasons for this is because of the current siege cap. When you can have multiple ac’s spamming ranged skills that can each hit 50 players at a time. Nothing should have a target limit of 50, especially when its spammable by multiple people. This is just part of the imbalance.
Yeah…. I understand how ac’s work… that wasn’t the question.
Why do you think 50 people that don’t have the common sense to move out of ac fire (or to destroy the ac) shouldn’t be hit by it?
This is how aoe is supposed to work. The only reason the aoe limit is so small on other skills is because supposedly if they removed the limit the calculations would lag the game, and instead of coming up with a proper solution the devs chose this lazy way to patch it.
The essential problem with this lies with the siege cap, which is ineffective and outdated. When you can have 5 acs built right next to each other, spamming skills at range, why the heck should each of those skills be able to hit 50 people at a time.
Tell me, where are you going to move, or push when 5 acs are firing on you, and you are trying to take down a gate with the hardended buff with rams, which dont move btw so ya know you actually have to stay there and defend them while people can spam ac fire from unhittable positions.
I am fed up with the current mechanics giving the most rewards for the least amount of effort or skill. WvW is supposed to be about players fighting players, not godkitten ed siege vs siege.
No you can counter them with ballista’s. They are not OP! Actually they balance a bit for a smaller defensive zerg. Out in the open it makes hardly a difference against most massive blobs
Tell me, where are you going to move, or push when 5 acs are firing on you, and you are trying to take down a gate with the hardended buff with rams, which dont move btw so ya know you actually have to stay there and defend them while people can spam ac fire from unhittable positions.
Don’t build rams under 5 acs without clearing the acs first. This can be done as simple as building a counter ac before the enemy gets on their acs, using a ballista which has a range greater than an ac, building a counter treb before the attack, sieging completely from a distance or if the enemy has factored all this in…. build two shield gens and siege the objective from a distance or counter siege it before moving in.
Use tactics and don’t mindlessly expect to take an objective by brute force simply because of numbers. Taking a defended objective is supposed to be difficult. It is supposed to take some tactical thinking. The defenders are supposed to have the advantage. Otherwise everything would be PvD to the largest force.
Tell me, where are you going to move, or push when 5 acs are firing on you, and you are trying to take down a gate with the hardended buff with rams, which dont move btw so ya know you actually have to stay there and defend them while people can spam ac fire from unhittable positions.
Don’t build rams under 5 acs without clearing the acs first. This can be done as simple as building a counter ac before the enemy gets on their acs, using a ballista which has a range greater than an ac, building a counter treb before the attack, sieging completely from a distance or if the enemy has factored all this in…. build two shield gens and siege the objective from a distance or counter siege it before moving in.
Use tactics and don’t mindlessly expect to take an objective by brute force simply because of numbers. Taking a defended objective is supposed to be difficult. It is supposed to take some tactical thinking. The defenders are supposed to have the advantage. Otherwise everything would be PvD to the largest force.
When you have current mechanics in wvw that encourage players to run into the nearest structure build as much siege as possible and pull levers instead of actually trying to fight people there is a serious problem with the direction wvw is heading.
I dont care about pvd and ktraining, I am fed up with seeing larger/equal sized enemy groups bunkering up as soon as they see anyone so they can build and rebuild a ton of ac’s everywhere, pull levers, and avoid fighting as much as possible.
Nothing wrong with AC damage or people limits- learn to counter.
Open field siege is fun- all you need to counter it is a suicidal ele or two.
In fact, almost all cata spots can be attacked by suicidal eles.
What’s most annoying is watching people wave at catas from behind walls (as the wall gets killed) or wave at them in the field without making any attempt to damage them and then moaning about ‘OP siege’. It’s like they are scared if their toon takes damage they will be injured in real life….
What needs removing is guild/built banners and tactics, as they just favour rich guilds and the team currently dominating anyway.
Tell me, where are you going to move, or push when 5 acs are firing on you, and you are trying to take down a gate with the hardended buff with rams, which dont move btw so ya know you actually have to stay there and defend them while people can spam ac fire from unhittable positions.
Don’t build rams under 5 acs without clearing the acs first. This can be done as simple as building a counter ac before the enemy gets on their acs, using a ballista which has a range greater than an ac, building a counter treb before the attack, sieging completely from a distance or if the enemy has factored all this in…. build two shield gens and siege the objective from a distance or counter siege it before moving in.
Use tactics and don’t mindlessly expect to take an objective by brute force simply because of numbers. Taking a defended objective is supposed to be difficult. It is supposed to take some tactical thinking. The defenders are supposed to have the advantage. Otherwise everything would be PvD to the largest force.
When you have current mechanics in wvw that encourage players to run into the nearest structure build as much siege as possible and pull levers instead of actually trying to fight people there is a serious problem with the direction wvw is heading.
I dont care about pvd and ktraining, I am fed up with seeing larger/equal sized enemy groups bunkering up as soon as they see anyone so they can build and rebuild a ton of ac’s everywhere, pull levers, and avoid fighting as much as possible.
Game will not move away from that, they made the game almost into a press button to be efective in game trough “gimmick design” will be always about it, gimmick VS gimmick.
It’s not this in T1 on EU… I don’t see this…
We don’t have too much siege inside our keep, we don’t have any scout anymore…
Thats because its only 1 server in particular in T1 NA, or maybe 1-2 others in lower tiers.
I was actually stupid enough to contemplate transferring to T1 so I did some research. The reason I didn’t transfer was because of a completely different culture than what I wanted. Your problems are your problems not because of T1 having the highest population but because of your culture.
As others have said the culture being criticized in this thread is not a T1 culture its the culture of 1 server in particular who wouldn’t have come up to T1 without the ego and stupidity of a couple of commanders.
Just move out of the red circles and things will be ok.
AC can hit way too many targets at once, and keep that up continuously. Can do a lot of damage, both direct and condi, in a very short time, to a very large amount of enemies – from complete safety. When multiple players are doing that, it’s simply a dead zone, no way to cross it. If that’s not enough, the players using it have builds optimized for AC: condi bunkers, wxp maxed. AC damage is sky-high in such situations. Risk is inexistent on AC, while the reward is maxed. Then they run or waypoint away… (maybe this is server specific though)
Siege bunker should allow surving under siege for while. Currently does not. 10% less damage from hits that are higher than your HP (always multiple AC’s) means nothing.
But the point would be to balance attackers vs. defenders in a siege situation. Give them tools, to both sides, make it FUN.
It’s not about AC alone. Devs need to take time and test it, not the AC, but the siege situation. Extreme unbalance is the norm in WvW, and not always was like that. The damage from all sources should be lowered, including players, not just AC’s. It’s far too high. If there’s no time to react, how to counterplay? Except trebs, those still take ages of waiting and are extemely boring to use… should be 5x higher maybe idk
Depends on what you want the AC to do. In its current design I’d vote to get rid of it entirely.
But what if the AC didn’t do actual damage but added various impeding conditions like cripple, poison etc. And specifically didn’t give actually tag for lootbags. Perhaps have one attack with a something that messes with people on siege (Don’t know, slow on siege engines, or daze on anyone using siege or something). Make it a pure support device.
No. As somebody who plays condition builds in World vs. World I don’t want a piece of siege making me irrelevant. It’s bad enough there are plenty of power builders who want to wipe away condition builds completely and hate the thought of us being around.
The example suggestion (from top of my head) there was more about making the AC deal no actual damage, not tag loot bags, but be a support piece to give specific negative effects on a large amount of players at the same time. The poison for example (with low damage) was mostly to hot downed, and reduce healing effects. Cripple mostly just to slow down the entire group perhaps while your own groups makes an attack etc. Not to actually deal condition damage, nor to be a main source of condition effects.
Some of the existing AC skills already work like this, just tacked onto some damage as well. Especially fan of the reveal shot.
But hey, it was just a “off the top of my head” idea, probably a bunch of things wrong with it. Was just trying to say that it depends on what they design it to do, it could actually do a lot of things depending upon what ANet decides.
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