Guild Wars 2

Okaishi.8320:

LordByron.8369:

1st thing thieves say is stealth is the only defensive mechanic…..

If you can choose 2 from 3 surviving mechanics that justs makes the point invalid…not even considering how some other professions have 1 or none.

you can build with evasion AND mobility….or with stealth and mobility

Being virtually immortal and the top burst is not a “perk”….

How useful is mobility, the ability to run away from a fight, for winning against your opponent?

Burst + mobility is everything…..

It means you can go full zerk and go all in on the burst and still be able to survive, it means you can jump in and out of combat when YOU want disrupting opponent tempo….etc etc etc.

When devs nerfed ele mobility the profession disappeared….there could be a reason.

godz raiden.2631:

You say thieves have 3 defensive mechanics as if that’s some sort of ridiculous number to possess.

You do realize other classes have access to those and more defensive mechanics as well, right? While having larger health pools in some cases.

Just for an example, look to warriors. They don’t have stealth. They just have almost every other defensive mechanic, including access to greater mobility than thieves (dependent on build obviously, but what isn’t) and every class access to evades (dodge rolling is a thing, and other classes can have perma-vigor, the thief cannot).

Your argument is innately flawed because it’s assuming that thieves are invincible because they possess the very same mechanics that other classes possess.

Warrior mobility infact is indeed OP….
Stealth+ mobility is just being invincible….unless you really make lot of mistakes….

If you can t kill a mesmer that has no mobility and short stealth, how you could be supposed to kill a decent thief?

My logic isn t flawed mostly because even anet admitted you can’t kill thieves in www.

Why do you think that troll thieves are everywhere alone in front of enemy spawns?
Why do you think that in the past when stealth didn t prevent to capture points they could contest alone camps against medium zergs with not so much effort?

thieves are so OP yet no wvw guild wants thieves and everyone and their mother plays warrior…mkayyyyyy

i will tell you how in generall fight as thief goes in wvw:
you engage enemy, put blackpowder down
they sit in it and spam 1 2 3 4 5 obviously missing
you go in stealth to get backstab off
ppl sit like frozen and wait nicely for you to get backstab off
rinse and repeat, they die, go on forums and complain about stealth

rarely, very rarerly would actually walk out of BP, rarely would anyone ever spam aoe on refuge/BP… almost nobody tries to dodge backstab

@LordByron: please tell me when did Anet say that you can’t kill thieves in wvw.

Cynz.9437:

thieves are so OP yet no wvw guild wants thieves and everyone and their mother plays warrior…mkayyyyyy

Non argument that has nothing to do with the topic. There are other classes that are in the same position in regards to WvW groups. Might as well say ….thieves are so OP yet it is raining today.

The facts are that some forward thinking people are using Thieves in their GvG groups and especially havoc groups. What a nightmare to fight a tight group with a Thief included.

Forzani.2584:

Cynz.9437:

thieves are so OP yet no wvw guild wants thieves and everyone and their mother plays warrior…mkayyyyyy

Non argument that has nothing to do with the topic. There are other classes that are in the same position in regards to WvW groups. Might as well say ….thieves are so OP yet it is raining today.

The facts are that some forward thinking people are using Thieves in their GvG groups and especially havoc groups. What a nightmare to fight a tight group with a Thief included.

no, it is actually relevant argument, if thieves were THAT broken as people claim then everyone would run thieves… that is what we see in pvp: it is flooded with warriors and necros due how strong they are

yes, there are some havoc groups that would take thieves but they would take about any class really

where actual wvw guilds, zerg guild, zerg busting guilds would rather have you run warrior, guard, necro, mesmer and ele

i see guild groups running hammer trains, i yet have to see thief train

WvW and PvP are two totally different games. Again, flawed argument….especially since this is a WvW forum.

Cynz.9437:

Forzani.2584:

Cynz.9437:

thieves are so OP yet no wvw guild wants thieves and everyone and their mother plays warrior…mkayyyyyy

Non argument that has nothing to do with the topic. There are other classes that are in the same position in regards to WvW groups. Might as well say ….thieves are so OP yet it is raining today.

The facts are that some forward thinking people are using Thieves in their GvG groups and especially havoc groups. What a nightmare to fight a tight group with a Thief included.

yes, there are some havoc groups that would take thieves but they would take about any class really

where actual wvw guilds, zerg guild, zerg busting guilds would rather have you run warrior, guard, necro, mesmer and ele

i see guild groups running hammer trains, i yet have to see thief train

Those groups take Thieves for specific reasons, so no, any other class wouldn’t do.

Some players just freak out when a Thief goes Stealth. Relax and play smart or you’ll continue to have a problem regardless of what, if anything, Anet changes.

Just a question…

Between the old ALT+F4 before the penalty was introduced and stealth…wich is more effective?

And you ask why people freak out when thieves and mez stealths?

LordByron.8369:

godz raiden.2631:

You say thieves have 3 defensive mechanics as if that’s some sort of ridiculous number to possess.

You do realize other classes have access to those and more defensive mechanics as well, right? While having larger health pools in some cases.

Just for an example, look to warriors. They don’t have stealth. They just have almost every other defensive mechanic, including access to greater mobility than thieves (dependent on build obviously, but what isn’t) and every class access to evades (dodge rolling is a thing, and other classes can have perma-vigor, the thief cannot).

Your argument is innately flawed because it’s assuming that thieves are invincible because they possess the very same mechanics that other classes possess.

Warrior mobility infact is indeed OP….
Stealth+ mobility is just being invincible….unless you really make lot of mistakes….

If you can t kill a mesmer that has no mobility and short stealth, how you could be supposed to kill a decent thief?

My logic isn t flawed mostly because even anet admitted you can’t kill thieves in www.

Why do you think that troll thieves are everywhere alone in front of enemy spawns?
Why do you think that in the past when stealth didn t prevent to capture points they could contest alone camps against medium zergs with not so much effort?

Stealth + Mobility isn’t invincible. It’s hard to react properly to and catch, but not invincible. I’m curious as to what class you’re playing since you’re having so much trouble with thieves.

You say you can’t kill mesmers either, and that they don’t have the mobility to get away, so I’m going to assume whatever class you’re playing you’re either 1) not very good, no offense, or 2) using 0 of that classes defensive/reactionary mechanics.

There are ways to catch thieves and kill them, and there are ways to dissuade them from fighting you. Both are victories. The sooner people complaining about thieves being able to escape fights realize that a thief who is running is a thief who is defeated, the sooner constructive discussion can be had. Besides, maybe thief mobility could take a hit if other classes in the game didn’t have twice as much as the supposedly most mobile class in the game.

And to address you final two questions:
1) “Troll” thieves are in front of your spawn because whoever is running out of your spawn has apparently proven they’re free bags who can barely managed to use basic movement keys in the game. They won’t stick around if you show them you can fight them.

2) A thief soloing a camp with a medium size zerg sitting on it? I’m guessing it was a zerg that didn’t have any aoes whatsoever… otherwise no thief could sit in the middle of a zerg that is aware of his presence.

Also source for Anet admitting you can’t kill thieves in WvW? I missed that post

You can t react to stealth by definition…..
Its the reason why many competitive games don t put any stealth skill at all.

1) yeah obviously all thieves are more skilled than any other player…
Tell me another profession that can stay in front of an enemy spawn for half an hour of a tier 1 www server….without being killed.

2) why do you question things that happened? you can t deny reality…it happened, youtube was full of vids to the point anet removed the ability to cap/contest in stealth.

For the source as i said elsewhere this forum search function is bad…any old player reading www and pvp forum will remember it was shortly before the 4s revealed debuff in www. (historically the FASTEST nerf reverted in this game ever seen……was few days opposed by months for any other….).

LordByron.8369:

You can t react to stealth by definition…..
Its the reason why many competitive games don t put any stealth skill at all.

1) yeah obviously all thieves are more skilled than any other player…
Tell me another profession that can stay in front of an enemy spawn for half an hour of a tier 1 www server….without being killed.

2) why do you question things that happened? you can t deny reality…it happened, youtube was full of vids to the point anet removed the ability to cap/contest in stealth.

For the source as i said elsewhere this forum search function is bad…any old player reading www and pvp forum will remember it was shortly before the 4s revealed debuff in www. (historically the FASTEST nerf reverted in this game ever seen……was few days opposed by months for any other….).

You can react to stealth, by definition. Do you play in WvW as if you’re a clueless NPC? “Welp the thief went stealth, guess he disappeared for good.” If you think that at any point, you are a clueless NPC, sorry to say it. (Not trying to attack you personally or anything, just poking some fun). If a thief goes stealth, expect a backstab in the next 3 seconds, and react for that. Other classes have means of damage mitigation, crowd control, and aoes. Use. Them. Don’t just minimize GW2 and start writing a post on the forums while the thief backstabs you to death.

1) You’re playing on a tier 1 server and can’t get out of spawn because of 1 thief? Sounds to me like a significant portion of your WvW population is having a L2P issue lol. Seriously though, other classes can do it just fine, most notably warrior. Their high survivability and insane mobility on GS allow them to be just as deadly as a thief in this particular scenario.

2)I didn’t question whether or not they changed the way stealth worked so it couldn’t capture points. Learn to read. I questioned the logic behind a medium sized zerg standing around a supply camp while a thief stealth capped it. If that ever even happened it’s not the thief’s fault, it’s the zerg’s fault (for being oblivious).

Also, it’s quite convenient that you make a claim about anet saying thieves are unkillable, but are too lazy to find the source. Stop making that claim.

Forzani.2584:

WvW and PvP are two totally different games. Again, flawed argument….especially since this is a WvW forum.

Stop with mirror climbing.

Anyway 7 pages of hysterical complaints from blobmasters.
That’s what i see here.
None is able to say something about balance, just nerf thieves becouse nerf thieves.
Meanwhile, again, what everyone see in wvw is the blob.
Guess mirror climbing is the new profession mixed with the forum warrioring..

I’m not sure what mirror climbing is frankly but like 50% of the issues I see brought up in these forums could have been prevented if the author would just youtube videos before coming here. At least make an effort to understand the issue and what you can do to negate it before blindly complaining.

Even Russians did know how to balance stealth right way.

Hasty Disguise
Rank: 3
Cast time: instant
Cooldown: 3m.
Teaches you to blend into the scenery and become invisible during combat. This effect decreases your movement speed by 20% and will be canceled if you use any ability. Duration: 12 second.

Stealth already has a counter: Stealth trap. It’s not like we have Anti-Adrenaline traps and Anti-Lifeforce traps.

There is NO game which can balance the class with stealth ability, they are either OP or UP. It’s becoz of the mechanism of stealth, it just simply can’t be balanced, it’s a 0 or 1 game, there is no intermediate stage. However, for an over all balance , it can be balanced by introducing anti-stealth classes. For current situation, ranger should be best candidate since range has been the long-time-lasting underdog since launch.

You can not ever balance a game with different classes and different mechanics. The only way to balance is by giving everyone the exact same avatars.

Deviija.7869:

Stealth already has a counter: Stealth trap. It’s not like we have Anti-Adrenaline traps and Anti-Lifeforce traps.

Lol. Like prescience nodes in daoc, they are easily avoidable. Easy to see the enemy place them and people often don’t have supply.

Yeah balance is a myth anyways. It will never exist in any game. Besides, from a design perspective balance is rather boring because it insinuates a boolean logic style of play that lacks excitement.

Quells.2498:

Some players just freak out when a Thief goes Stealth. Relax and play smart or you’ll continue to have a problem regardless of what, if anything, Anet changes.

Players really freak out when a thief doesn’t go stealth!

Viking Jorun.5413:

Quells.2498:

Some players just freak out when a Thief goes Stealth. Relax and play smart or you’ll continue to have a problem regardless of what, if anything, Anet changes.

Players really freak out when a thief doesn’t go stealth!

Agreed, especially when we evade and evade.

Sanduskel.1850:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Quells.2498:

Some players just freak out when a Thief goes Stealth. Relax and play smart or you’ll continue to have a problem regardless of what, if anything, Anet changes.

Players really freak out when a thief doesn’t go stealth!

Agreed, especially when we evade and evade.

Our evading ability got nerfed to the point where it takes 30 trait points to maintain pseudo perma vigor. It’s not as bad as people make it out to be, and evade thieves sacrifice the utility of stealth in order to gain said survivability out of it.

Has any MMO actually done the invisibility mechanic right?

NornBearPig.9814:

Has any MMO actually done the invisibility mechanic right?

No. Never. They’re always OP or UP. Honestly though, I think from a PvP standpoint, thieves are the most balanced class right now. Warriors, necros, mesmers, and guardians are all a bit too powerful and need more build variety. The only weapon set that thieves don’t really use in PvP is P/P, and even that sees action in high ranked tPvP fights on occasion, with success. Think of it like a S/D ele. Kind of gimmicky, but it’s an option that doesn’t weigh your team down.

The stealth ‘question’ has long since transcended issues of balance or class – it’s just plain bad gameplay design – since day one it’s been firmly on the list of ‘I can’t believe they actually went live with this nonsense’ things – such as Quickness (took me about five seconds of play to figure-out that needed a nerf… ), Infiltrator’s Return, or vanilla Dancing Dagger (to use some Thief examples, being the class I’ve trolled most with).

Between stealth and ‘AoE-soup’, you’ll find the reasons why GW2 earned itself a vehement ‘close-but-no-cigar’ vote from the fantasy RPG community at-large, and why future games will be practically falling over themselves to demonstrate they will not make the same errors.

godz raiden.2631:

You can react to stealth, by definition. Do you play in WvW as if you’re a clueless NPC? “Welp the thief went stealth, guess he disappeared for good.”

Maybe you should start to learn what is prediction and what is reaction…
Without those basic concepts you lack the knowledge required for a balancing discussion…..

Even with any good idea you could possibly have you will still miss part of the picture…

NornBearPig.9814:

Has any MMO actually done the invisibility mechanic right?

Eve-o. You can’t cloak anymore once someone locked you. Meaning you die if you uncloak, giving stealth a very good utility in scouting and surprise attacks, but other than that, it’s kitten.

Other than that, I have no idea. Probably not.

That said, we could use the same mechanic in this game? Can’t stealth if a hostile player has them targeted. It makes sense really, you can only hide in plain sight as long as people aren’t paying attention. :P

HIPS? That’s another rule-set and it only needed some shadow, any shadow, nearby to enable you to Hide-In-Plain-Sight. And why else would it be called Hide-In-Plain-Sight?

Hiding in plain sight as in hiding in plain sight, not the name of the D&D ability.

We will be given new utility skills for every class in the future, so expect some of these to inflict Revealed. In addition I think some of our current utilities will be buffed or changed to counter stealth more effectively in the manner that ArenaNet previously changed “Sic ’Em”.

LordByron.8369:

godz raiden.2631:

You can react to stealth, by definition. Do you play in WvW as if you’re a clueless NPC? “Welp the thief went stealth, guess he disappeared for good.”

Maybe you should start to learn what is prediction and what is reaction…
Without those basic concepts you lack the knowledge required for a balancing discussion…..

Even with any good idea you could possibly have you will still miss part of the picture…

You’re having that much difficulty “predicting” that stealth thieves are going to backstab you? Are you aware of where your back is located on your characters? If yes, then I am correct, and your issue is not being able to “react.” Stop acting like you’re above the rest of the community and shouldn’t have to play against thieves simply because you don’t want to turn around when a thief enters stealth. You’re making the assumption that you can’t react to stealth only because you don’t WANT to react to it. Try to better your play instead of complaining about it on the forum.

I guess it’s fair for you to say that I’m missing part of the picture. It’s the part where somehow you’re above the rest of us and shouldn’t have to learn how to play against thieves. Get over yourself.

godz raiden.2631:

LordByron.8369:

godz raiden.2631:

You can react to stealth, by definition. Do you play in WvW as if you’re a clueless NPC? “Welp the thief went stealth, guess he disappeared for good.”

Maybe you should start to learn what is prediction and what is reaction…
Without those basic concepts you lack the knowledge required for a balancing discussion…..

Even with any good idea you could possibly have you will still miss part of the picture…

You’re having that much difficulty “predicting” that stealth thieves are going to backstab you? Are you aware of where your back is located on your characters? If yes, then I am correct, and your issue is not being able to “react.” Stop acting like you’re above the rest of the community and shouldn’t have to play against thieves simply because you don’t want to turn around when a thief enters stealth. You’re making the assumption that you can’t react to stealth only because you don’t WANT to react to it. Try to better your play instead of complaining about it on the forum.

I guess it’s fair for you to say that I’m missing part of the picture. It’s the part where somehow you’re above the rest of us and shouldn’t have to learn how to play against thieves. Get over yourself.

This is just wrong. Despite the text description of backstab, it doesn’t need to hit the back of its targets to do double damage. It works on the side of the target too. So to land it you use it any where but the front of the target. Its not hard to land and impossible to counter play.

Aza.2105:

godz raiden.2631:

LordByron.8369:

godz raiden.2631:

You can react to stealth, by definition. Do you play in WvW as if you’re a clueless NPC? “Welp the thief went stealth, guess he disappeared for good.”

Maybe you should start to learn what is prediction and what is reaction…
Without those basic concepts you lack the knowledge required for a balancing discussion…..

Even with any good idea you could possibly have you will still miss part of the picture…

You’re having that much difficulty “predicting” that stealth thieves are going to backstab you? Are you aware of where your back is located on your characters? If yes, then I am correct, and your issue is not being able to “react.” Stop acting like you’re above the rest of the community and shouldn’t have to play against thieves simply because you don’t want to turn around when a thief enters stealth. You’re making the assumption that you can’t react to stealth only because you don’t WANT to react to it. Try to better your play instead of complaining about it on the forum.

I guess it’s fair for you to say that I’m missing part of the picture. It’s the part where somehow you’re above the rest of us and shouldn’t have to learn how to play against thieves. Get over yourself.

This is just wrong. Despite the text description of backstab, it doesn’t need to hit the back of its targets to do double damage. It works on the side of the target too. So to land it you use it any where but the front of the target. Its not hard to land and impossible to counter play.

Aegis, blocks, retaliation, protection, invulnerabilities, and evades/dodges all mitigate/negate the damage from backstab.

“Crud! That thief just went stealth and is going to backstab me. Guess I’ll die because I didn’t pack any of those handy defensive mechanics Anet was so generous to include in every single classes skill sets and utilities!”

It might not be hard to land a backstab, but it’s a whole lot easier to block or dodge one. It’s easy to tell when I’m playing against someone who isn’t kitten y on my thief. They don’t just smash all of their defensive skills at the same time and then wonder why they died. They space out their abilities and REACT to me being in stealth. The sooner you guys get this sort of stuff through your heads, the sooner you can make it back to your precious zerg that you can’t survive without.

Also, there are plenty of things that don’t work exactly how the tool tip states. Look at the mistlock instability on fractal level 33 :P (off-topic, but actually relevant to the things not acting properly when hitting from behind and the side actually. I think it’s just difficult to properly code that sort of stuff, so don’t take that out on the players. We didn’t design the skill.)

godz raiden.2631:

Aza.2105:

godz raiden.2631:

LordByron.8369:

godz raiden.2631:

You can react to stealth, by definition. Do you play in WvW as if you’re a clueless NPC? “Welp the thief went stealth, guess he disappeared for good.”

Maybe you should start to learn what is prediction and what is reaction…
Without those basic concepts you lack the knowledge required for a balancing discussion…..

Even with any good idea you could possibly have you will still miss part of the picture…

You’re having that much difficulty “predicting” that stealth thieves are going to backstab you? Are you aware of where your back is located on your characters? If yes, then I am correct, and your issue is not being able to “react.” Stop acting like you’re above the rest of the community and shouldn’t have to play against thieves simply because you don’t want to turn around when a thief enters stealth. You’re making the assumption that you can’t react to stealth only because you don’t WANT to react to it. Try to better your play instead of complaining about it on the forum.

I guess it’s fair for you to say that I’m missing part of the picture. It’s the part where somehow you’re above the rest of us and shouldn’t have to learn how to play against thieves. Get over yourself.

This is just wrong. Despite the text description of backstab, it doesn’t need to hit the back of its targets to do double damage. It works on the side of the target too. So to land it you use it any where but the front of the target. Its not hard to land and impossible to counter play.

Aegis, blocks, retaliation, protection, invulnerabilities, and evades/dodges all mitigate/negate the damage from backstab.

“Crud! That thief just went stealth and is going to backstab me. Guess I’ll die because I didn’t pack any of those handy defensive mechanics Anet was so generous to include in every single classes skill sets and utilities!”

It might not be hard to land a backstab, but it’s a whole lot easier to block or dodge one. It’s easy to tell when I’m playing against someone who isn’t kitten y on my thief. They don’t just smash all of their defensive skills at the same time and then wonder why they died. They space out their abilities and REACT to me being in stealth. The sooner you guys get this sort of stuff through your heads, the sooner you can make it back to your precious zerg that you can’t survive without.

Also, there are plenty of things that don’t work exactly how the tool tip states. Look at the mistlock instability on fractal level 33 :P (off-topic, but actually relevant to the things not acting properly when hitting from behind and the side actually. I think it’s just difficult to properly code that sort of stuff, so don’t take that out on the players. We didn’t design the skill.)

The problem with your reasoning is your under the assumption that defensive skills negate backstab. This would very well be true if a missed/block/evaded backstab caused the thief to come out of stealth. But this does not happen. So they just do backstab again and again until they land it. The thief player receives no punishment for failing his/her backstab, but the player receives punishment even though they may have intelligently utilized their defensive skills to counter the attack.

One common problem I observe with people in games is they begin to identify themselves as the class itself, as if the class is a extension of themselves. Suggestions and problems with faulty aspects of the class become like personal attacks to them.

You blamed people for not reacting to you in stealth. But this is a oxymoron, how do you react to something you can’t see? Part of the advantage of stealth is they can see everything you do and make choices that reflect upon their observation, but the person who isn’t stealth does not have the same advantage. They can only guess or react based on instinct.

For a healthy pvp game counterplay is absolutely necessary. Stealth is in desperate need for it and it was a mistake of Anet not to include counterplay options for all classes.

Aza.2105:

The problem with your reasoning is your under the assumption that defensive skills negate backstab. This would very well be true if a missed/block/evaded backstab caused the thief to come out of stealth. But this does not happen. So they just do backstab again and again until they land it. The thief player receives no punishment for failing his/her backstab, but the player receives punishment even though they may have intelligently utilized their defensive skills to counter the attack.

One common problem I observe with people in games is they begin to identify themselves as the class itself, as if the class is a extension of themselves. Suggestions and problems with faulty aspects of the class become like personal attacks to them.

You blamed people for not reacting to you in stealth. But this is a oxymoron, how do you react to something you can’t see? Part of the advantage of stealth is they can see everything you do and make choices that reflect upon their observation, but the person who isn’t stealth does not have the same advantage. They can only guess or react based on instinct.

For a healthy pvp game counterplay is absolutely necessary. Stealth is in desperate need for it and it was a mistake of Anet not to include counterplay options for all classes.

Many defensive skills do negate backstab… not all. You’re right that missed/blocked/evaded backstabs don’t cause a thief to reveal, however they do let you know when something’s trying to hit you. The simplest example of this is when you lose aegis on a guardian when fighting a thief who is in stealth. Guess where he is? Behind you. You now know his location, stealthed or not. For all intents and purposes he is as visible now as ever once he pops that aegis, whether or not you can actually see him. Turn and fight him, or better yet, evade backwards and put yourself behind him. It’s not like thieves stay in stealth until they attack after they enter it, they have a set amount of time to get a successful backstab off, and if you’ve ever played a stealth thief before (especially D/D), you would know it’s not always that simple. Sometimes it’s even better to forgo attacking out of stealth at all and wait for a better time to strike entirely. When fighting a thief you need to pay just as much attention to yourself as you do to him. Keep an eye on your boons and time your blocks in synchronization with his attempted backstabs. It’s not a perfect solution, but there shouldn’t be hard counters anyway, so that’s a good thing.

I admit I’m biased towards thief. I’ve played it since launch, but since then I’ve leveled other classes and I enjoy playing my engineer and guardian as well, and I can tell you, I’ve only died a handful of times against thieves on those classes, and in most cases I just happened to have most of my abilities on cooldown after a previous fight, so the fights weren’t even close to being in my favor. I’m not taking your criticisms as personal attacks either, don’t worry yourself. You’re entitled to your opinions! This is a discussion after all.

You CAN react to something you can’t see in this game. If you stand still against a thief then of course it’s hard to react. You’re not even playing. Just moving in and of itself, is a reactionary style of play against a thief who is in stealth. There are a few classes who also have the ability to trait for perma-vigor, making it even easier to avoid backstabs on top of their access to aegis and protection and other blocks/invulns/evades (guardians and mesmers primarily). Many classes have blinds, some even aoe, such as those of the engineer (who can also pack blocks, knockbacks, launches, and immobilizes into their builds while keeping the blinds).

You have to realize that thieves don’t have access to all of the protective boons and skills that other classes have. Depending on build, thieves has stealth, or a plethora of evades/dodges. Both of which are active styles of defense. Stealth doesn’t mitigate damage in any way (other than being impossible to see, but you are still very able to be hit, and aoes will tear a thief apart while he’s stealthed if he’s fighting a good players). Thieves that rely on evades will eventually run out of initiative and be open for attack, and they are open for attacks between their evades as well. Other classes have mixed defensive options, thieves do not. There isn’t a single thief ability that applies aegis or invulnerability. Not a one.

Aza.2105:

The problem with your reasoning is your under the assumption that defensive skills negate backstab. This would very well be true if a missed/block/evaded backstab caused the thief to come out of stealth. But this does not happen. So they just do backstab again and again until they land it. The thief player receives no punishment for failing his/her backstab, but the player receives punishment even though they may have intelligently utilized their defensive skills to counter the attack.

One common problem I observe with people in games is they begin to identify themselves as the class itself, as if the class is a extension of themselves. Suggestions and problems with faulty aspects of the class become like personal attacks to them.

You blamed people for not reacting to you in stealth. But this is a oxymoron, how do you react to something you can’t see? Part of the advantage of stealth is they can see everything you do and make choices that reflect upon their observation, but the person who isn’t stealth does not have the same advantage. They can only guess or react based on instinct.

For a healthy pvp game counterplay is absolutely necessary. Stealth is in desperate need for it and it was a mistake of Anet not to include counterplay options for all classes.

Most of the counterplay in the pvp elements in this game, particularly WvW (and in this case roaming, since thieves aren’t all that wonderful in zerg blobs) comes from player skill. I can fight a horrendous mesmer who I can kill in 2-3 hits and who just stood around and whiffed all of his skills, and then in the next minute fight another, better mesmer, same exact build, who downs me in a matter of seconds just because he played the fight much better. You shouldn’t be winning every fight against a thief, and you shouldn’t be losing each one either. If you lose every time against a thief, then you’re doing something wrong. For every great thief, there are a handful of equally awful ones that nobody should be losing (especially if you’re playing on your “main”).