Mist forming through doors is obviously skill and adds a level of strategy to the game. If you don’t want him to mist form in don’t kill him so close to a door
No you don’t understand VOLKON, unless you’re trolling which at this point I’m willing to accept.
We push, we kill 20 to 30 of them, we back off to heal up and rebuff, we don’t lose anybody, not even downed. We go for a second push, but everyone we downed is back on their feet throwing skills at us again. <—-repeat that and its every fight for us due to this mechanic.
Sylas
Second Law [Scnd] – Guild leader
Currently: Axiom – Necro
No you don’t understand VOLKON, unless you’re trolling which at this point I’m willing to accept.
We push, we kill 20 to 30 of them, we back off to heal up and rebuff, we don’t lose anybody, not even downed. We go for a second push, but everyone we downed is back on their feet throwing skills at us again. <—-repeat that and its every fight for us due to this mechanic.
I just get the feeling that many of the people in here poo-pooing this are part of the 20-30 that you just downed. It’s in their best interest to keep this as is.
What makes no sense is you. Here is some reality for you. If a larger group is winning because of the downed state mechanic then they are not “equally skilled” to the smaller group.
That should be obvious.
Get your logic out of this thread, does not belong here.
No you don’t understand VOLKON, unless you’re trolling which at this point I’m willing to accept.
We push, we kill 20 to 30 of them, we back off to heal up and rebuff, we don’t lose anybody, not even downed. We go for a second push, but everyone we downed is back on their feet throwing skills at us again. <—-repeat that and its every fight for us due to this mechanic.
Oh… wait a minute… you’re saying you hit a zerg of 60-80 with 20-30 and kill a quarter to a third of them without losing a person?
And you accuse me of trolling?
Let’s try a little reality then, shall we? First off, that zerg of 60-80 won’t be all “unskilled” as you like to call them. More often than not you have an organized guild group with a swarm of pugs joining them. In other words, varying degrees of skill (which included people as skilled or better than you). You’ll have a commander giving orders, stacking people for buffs, etc. So, I reiterate. It’s not the rezzing that’s the issue… it’s your expectations.
I would like to see more ways to inter-act dynamically with downed state. Something along the lines of a ground target combo field off utility or weapons skills that when placed on a downed enemy prevent them from rallying off anything and slow their health regeneration.
The duration, size, and cooldowns on such abilities would have to be carefully balanced. But done properly it would give small zergs the ability to take on larger zergs, with the proper coordination between burst dps and anti-rally fields.
Caliburn.1845, Monsters Inc.
Darkhaven>Dragonbrand>Blackgate>Maguuma>Yaks Bend>Stormbluff Isle>Yaks Bend
I would like to see more ways to inter-act dynamically with downed state. Something along the lines of a ground target combo field off utility or weapons skills that when placed on a downed enemy prevent them from rallying off anything and slow their health regeneration.
The duration, size, and cooldowns on such abilities would have to be carefully balanced. But done properly it would give small zergs the ability to take on larger zergs, with the proper coordination between burst dps and anti-rally fields.
GW1 had that… Frozen Soil I think? Now there’s an interesting idea that should work well.
Oh… wait a minute… you’re saying you hit a zerg of 60-80 with 20-30 and kill a quarter to a third of them without losing a person?
And you accuse me of trolling?
Let’s try a little reality then, shall we? First off, that zerg of 60-80 won’t be all “unskilled” as you like to call them. More often than not you have an organized guild group with a swarm of pugs joining them. In other words, varying degrees of skill (which included people as skilled or better than you). You’ll have a commander giving orders, stacking people for buffs, etc. So, I reiterate. It’s not the rezzing that’s the issue… it’s your expectations.
Here are videos showing us killing 40/50/60+ players, some of them with organised guilds at their core. All videos are with about 20-25 guild members. Posted to show that I’m not trolling
If we get beaten because of superior numbers AND skill, fairplay. If we get beaten by numbers due to a mechanic that lets them beat us, we have case to be annoyed.
Keep in mind this is all point of view, if you play on a server that is outmanned 90% of the time you WvW. The down state is the bane of your existance.
If you play on a server where its evenly matched, or you have more players. You’re not going to care as much.
Regardless I don’t think it would hurt anyone to implement the suggestions made in this forum like down players getting ressed on their own, or assisted but only out of combat. I think thats a brilliant idea, one that wouldn’t affect the larger more even servers, and let the little guys have a chance.
Great post, im with most of you 100% on this topic: Downstate is a big problem for outmanned servers.
[VLK] – No one ever complains about bad Thieves, they die.
One solution would be to drastically reduce downed state health in wvw. It’s annoying to have to basically kill people twice and often have enemies do as much or more damage while downed than they did while up. DPSing downed people to full dead takes way too long imo. Stomps take too long to channel and often require the use of stability/stealth/invuln cooldowns to succeed not to mention that certain classes have downed states that require several tries (thief/mesmer.)
Leave downed state as is. Instead, make the defeated state permanent while your corpse remains “in combat” (within 1,200 radius of other players still in combat themselves) or the player trying to rez you is still in combat. If your allies or you – as a defeated player – are still in combat, you can not be rezzed. Period.
Your only options at that point are to either:
1) Patiently wait until the combat concludes, hoping your side is victorious, they drop out of combat, and can then rez you.
2) Respawn at a waypoint and run back to join the fight.
At the very least I would like to be able to complete a finisher before another player can rez someone downed.
I like the idea of downed state, but I do not like the mechanics when I am heading to SM and some roamers try to jump me, I down 1 of them, and then its rezrace time for them. I get the whole “if you are outnumbered you should be at a disadvantage argument”, but really that should apply more to the realm of personal skill, rather than a game mechanic.
If they do not implement/like the “out of combat” solution, (and I would not personally, because breaking combat is ridiculously hard at moments when it should not be); possibly speeding up the finish would be better IMO, than slowing down the rez speed. Plus there are mechanics/traits in place I believe to rez faster anyway. At the very least, I would like to be able to get off a finisher faster than 1(one) player can rez another player.
As others have stated. The solution is to make it so you can only bring someone back when you are out of combat.
If they were to add any unfortunate restrictions like that, it should be no worse than only rezzing defeated players out of combat with no restrictions reviving downed players.
As others have stated. The solution is to make it so you can only bring someone back when you are out of combat.
If they were to add any unfortunate restrictions like that, it should be no worse than only rezzing defeated players out of combat with no restrictions reviving downed players.
That’s maybe a good first step to see how the meta changes with it. I’d be ok with that.
Just remove the silly attacks and knockbacks and such in WvW. If you’re downed, you should provide a buff to allies or a debuff to enemies and nothing else. PvE is arguably fine.
“OMG! They killed Kenny!” == All friendly players within 10 yards of Kenny gain swiftness for 5 seconds as they rush to his aid. All enemy players within 10 yards of Kenny move 10% slower for 5 seconds as they try to avoid Kenny’s body parts and pool of blood.
I don’t even know what could be a valid reason for being pro ressing dead (not downed) when in combat in WvW. It promotes blobbing which I think is something nobody likes, unless you’re a ‘karmatrainer’. At the very least ressing dead should be something with a certain limit, or something that requires a certain utility skill.
I just get the feeling that many of the people in here poo-pooing this are part of the 20-30 that you just downed. It’s in their best interest to keep this as is.
This. 100%. I’ve heard arguments to be against the mechanic. What would be valid arguments in favor? ‘I don’t want to run back all the way because I got outplayed’?
It’s not simple at all. If opponents can’t revive downed allies, then you can’t have ten allies hit a downed player either. Honestly, it’s a learning issue. Once you run with a group of players that know to focus fire, it’s not a problem at all. Most of the time, your allies just need a little guidance in chat.
A problem that I would like see fixed, is players getting into towers once they are downed. Elementalists especially have a very easy time doing this, thanks to Vapor Form.
80 Ranger | 80 Mesmer | 80 Thief | 80 Guardian | 40 Engineer
“The learned is happy, nature to explore. The fool is happy, that he knows no more.”
-Alexander Pope
There is little to no problem with downed. It forces one side to ‘push’ if they want to decisively win a battle and kill people. I’d say if anything the downed state should be buffed…you should take less damage from ranged attacks while downed.
What’s the real issue? The real problem is the classes that have downed abilities that allow you to escape and stall being spiked. Remove all/most the teleports, stealths, knockbacks and other nonsense and then you will see nobody complaining about it in WvW..because the only way to get up is if the other side is chased off or allies work to get you back up.
A problem that I would like see fixed, is players getting into towers once they are downed. Elementalists especially have a very easy time doing this, thanks to Vapor Form.
I see that happen once in awhile… rarely enough that I’m surprised someone is even bothering to whine about it in the forums. Eles can mist away. That’s nice. More power to ’em.
You want to fix a real travesty? Give the mesmer greatsword “5” skill some lift instead of pushing people across the ground where even a pebble stops the push back. Get a little air under them! Instead of trying to knock people off walls or ledges only to have them get hung up on a lip or a twig, get a little arch, see those writhing, twisting bodies flying in the air… oh yeah… I’ll be in my bunk.
I’ll also add my view as I saw many roamers did too. As the leader of a small-scale deathsquad (5-10 people) I strongly oppose the downed state in general. Having played many other MMO’s and doing the same roaming style play in every one of them I can honestly tell you there’s probably not another game that rewards blobbing up and zerging this much. While in RvR this may not be that much of an issue, I’d like to suggest maybe remove the “Guild” from the game’s name as there’s clearly no benefits of roaming in WvW with your guild. Whereas having builds that make the whole group really hard to catch and do tons of damage on spot, in 90% of the cases we find enemy groups of up to 30 just scatter around straight after being attacked, switch to their rifles and shortbows and start the pewpew circle. With our numbers there is just no way for us to counter this besides moving around constantly dropping our damage at different people all the time making them “go down”.
It’s just really sad pushing my mirror button looking at those 2 guys we missed with our burst quickly heal that 3rd one up and then proceed to heal the other 15 behind us to then spread around again and restart the pewpew all over again. By the time we regroup, heal and turn back around to fight them again all we see is the whole zerg back up again at full health like nothing happened before. In most cases we end the fight by most of the enemies reaching the end of their death penalty or we need to run due to the swords showing up on the map, inviting the randoms around to come join in the hunt for badges, making it harder and harder for us over time.
My suggestions:
Half or 1/3 downed health and toughness
Players only be able to heal downed allies at 50% effectiveness which turns into 33% when 2 people revive and 25% when 3…etc
When players rally they should get 2 debuffs: weakness and poison which they can’t remove. Maybe it could be merged and called downed sickness, which would reduce healing effectiveness and and power.
Players should also be allowed to rally off players and someone dying should only rally 1 person.
If you rally from below 50% downed health you also get crippled for 5 seconds.
I know this may be too much for casual players but you need to understand that WvW is played by some people who enjoy fighting against the odds and like to “show off” their skill. Maybe only include some of these ideas in a patch and make them WvW-only.
