Guild Wars 2

WvW encourages 2v1s. This is intended, and you guys need to get over the fact that it’s intended. However, what 2,1,1 aims to address is 2v1ing the right target and not the weakest opponent which is the case now.

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MaLeVoLenT.8129:

WvW encourages 2v1s. This is intended, and you guys need to get over the fact that it’s intended. However, what 2,1,1 aims to address is 2v1ing the right target and not the weakest opponent which is the case now.

So how would this work?

Say the 2nd and 3rd servers 2v1 the top in a skirmish. When does this 2 vs 1 alliance breakup, 30 min to the end of a skirmish? 15 min? Because one of the 2 in the alliance will get nothing, why would the weaker one join a 2v1 against the top anyway, it mostly likely gets nothing either way. In 3-2-1, the weakest still has a chance for a 2nd place finish because the 2nd place ranked server could face most of the pressure.

A possible adaptation to the 2-1-1 scoring for a server trying to maintain its ranking is to recruit and stack the strongest skirmish time slots currently it has and just forget about the rest.

MaLeVoLenT.8129:

Jski.6180:

Lord of Rings.5371:

MaLeVoLenT.8129:

@Tiny, I’m simply referring to scoring. Let’s use this week in T1 and last week.
In Tier 1 BG and MAG and JQ’s positions are already decided. The match isn’t going to change position wise. The score right now on MOS says:

BG 130
MAG 113
JQ 81

If the scoring system was 2, 1, 1 the scores would read,
BG 80
MAG 76
JQ 60

Would it be easier to have to scores be the number of wins,

BG 26
MAG 22
JQ 6

for

BG 26 = 80 – 54
MAG 22 = 76 – 54
JQ 6 = 60 – 54

by taking away 54, the number of skirmishes, where the winner gets 1 and the others 0, instead of 2-1-1?

Then JQ should not be in that grouping?
Just getting by in 2ed places every now and then should not keep you in that group of wvw. Keep in mind that the problem with being at the top you can only go down but if your not at the time then ppl can go up. So this new point system may not work well for the top worlds but it will work for all the lower worlds very well.
(Wvw is far more then just the T1 group and T1 is very different from all the others so only using it as the example is a very flawed argument.)

You can use the very same argument no matter what tier you’re in. Even in Tier 2 where it’s a blow out and the sense to care about PPT isnt that great.

So you can have over stack worlds move up out of the tier in 2 and down so you do not get blow out weeks every week. In T1 you cant have a world who is blowing out the other 2 move out you can only have one of the lower worlds move down. The new point system will lend it self to making worlds move up more so then move down in all tiers but T1. (No one likes to move down but ppl may not love moving up but they will not out right hate it.)

People need to understand that this system punishes both the first and second strongest servers.
The strongest server gets 2v1’d. DIRECTLY encouraged by the new system, even more than the 321 system.

The second strongest server will get the same amount of points as the weakest server regardless of how they perfrom. Meaning the weakest server can finish all skirmishes in a day at 1k points and still be tied for second place in the overall matchup with a server that finishes all the skirmishes at 4k points…

So what’s a good reason to have weaker server focused over stronger servers?

No good reasons for the weaker server to join 2v1 against the top.

In fact no good reasons to be too involved.

With nothing to gain, might as well transfer away or play defense or do something else and come back at a different time slot.

Looks like a lot of people here like to fight for second… No wonder the same servers always win. “Why 2v1 the strongest server when you can just 2v1 the weakest and get consolation prize of 2nd place?” Amirite?

Lord of Rings.5371:

No good reasons for the weaker server to join 2v1 against the top.

In fact no good reasons to be too involved.

With nothing to gain, might as well transfer away or play defense or do something else and come back at a different time slot.

You make it sound like that doesn’t already happen, regardless of system in place. When a weak server is being farmed by overwhelming numbers, their keeps k-trained, spawn camped, they will “try” to defend whatever they have in their time zone, if not they take the week off or if the situation has been going on for weeks they will transfer.

No good reason to be involved, all that has already been happening since day one. There is a good reason to be involved, to try and screw over 1 or 2, you weren’t going to win the match in either system.

Still no reason as to why weaker servers should be focused over stronger servers, which is how the system has operated as for 4 years.

In 3-2-1, the weakest server could still fight for a middle place finish, improving its score, when the 2nd place ranked server is facing most of the pressure.

Vova.2640:

People need to understand that this system punishes both the first and second strongest servers.
The strongest server gets 2v1’d. DIRECTLY encouraged by the new system, even more than the 321 system.

The second strongest server will get the same amount of points as the weakest server regardless of how they perfrom. Meaning the weakest server can finish all skirmishes in a day at 1k points and still be tied for second place in the overall matchup with a server that finishes all the skirmishes at 4k points…

People perfectly understand that. On your first point players by and large would think a 2v1 should be on the stronger server, certainly more than on the 2nd server which happened under the 3,2,1 system.

On your 2nd point ultimately 2nd and 3rd place mean nothing to players and if the 2nd server is strong enough they will be ahead of the 3rd server anyway. It actually provides them more impetus to do as well as possible if they care about it.

WvW is a 3 way fight game mode. R v R v R. It is the essence of what makes this game mode in GW2 so special. At it’s core is competition and that means there is going to be server who places 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

Skirmishes have been a great addition to the game in order to curb run away night capping / day capping, whatever, and overpowered servers from running away with the match.

But this 211 system feels like the mentality of everyone gets a trophy. Eventually, the 2v1 grind is going to be tedious and people are just going to stop playing. If people on strong servers stop playing, then there will be less population and others will stop playing. Participation begets participation. The adverse is true. Apathy is infectious.

I think this might be the death of WvW for me.

Vova.2640:

The strongest server gets 2v1’d. DIRECTLY encouraged by the new system, even more than the 321 system.

Why?

Quite the contrary, the strongest server is probably always so far ahead the other two cant compete. This only lead to the strongest deciding whos the second strongest (ie the one not getting focused). Weakest server wont focus strongest because it probably cant.

Pointwise, the system will only work if hitting stronger targets is rewarded more than hitting weaker ones.

So lets say that 3 get 20% more score for hitting 2 and 40% more for hitting 1.
2 would get 20% more score for hitting 1 and 20% less score by hitting 3.

Etc and so on.

This discussion assumes a couple of things that I don’t feel are always, or even often, true: that people act rationally and that servers act coherently.

When there is a very clear objective, for instance back in the Seasons/Tournaments or when a server is being hoisted up the rankings by an organized group of guilds or commanders, then both of the above sometimes pertain.

Mostly, though, what I’ve observed in normal matchplay is that certain Commanders and/or Guilds have vendettas or grudges against certain other Commanders or Guilds on other servers and most of their focus is on pursuing those agendas regardless of the tactical or strategic outcome where the match is concerned. Similarly, a significant proportion of players on certain servers profess to “hate” specific other servers for various historical reasons, either perceived or actual, and those servers will be focused again regardless of matchplay strategy.

Maybe this is different on other servers, which may have a more coherent or pragmatic or results-oriented leadership but I think it’s a bit of a stretch to expect that the majority of servers will start behaving as though they are organized teams competing in a meaningful competition when all the evidence is that they are loose collectives rattling about in a disorganized continuum.

If people still care about winning their matchups, they will adapt. Otherwise they will just keep doing their K-train stuff on the weakest server while getting nothing instead of the 2nd place consolation prize (which also is a big bag of nothing).

1. There are a number of assumptions here about how a scoring system will change matchups. Perhaps we should see what actually occurs.
2. The community stacks certain servers, often out of a sense of who they want to fight. I don’t see that changing considering the people who do this continue to move around.
3. It is almost impossible to coordinate a 2v1 across all time zones for an entire week.
4. Its lunch time and I have thai leftovers.

Fatherbliss.4701:

1. There are a number of assumptions here about how a scoring system will change matchups. Perhaps we should see what actually occurs.
2. The community stacks certain servers, often out of a sense of who they want to fight. I don’t see that changing considering the people who do this continue to move around.
3. It is almost impossible to coordinate a 2v1 across all time zones for an entire week.
4. Its lunch time and I have thai leftovers.

This said by a man who only wears no pants in wvw.

Nightingale.8364:

Fatherbliss.4701:

1. There are a number of assumptions here about how a scoring system will change matchups. Perhaps we should see what actually occurs.
2. The community stacks certain servers, often out of a sense of who they want to fight. I don’t see that changing considering the people who do this continue to move around.
3. It is almost impossible to coordinate a 2v1 across all time zones for an entire week.
4. Its lunch time and I have thai leftovers.

This said by a man who only wears no pants in wvw.

This just means I am wise.

Well, so far, everything is looking exactly like what I predicted. One thing to note: what is the point of trying, if you would normally place 2nd, what’s the point in fighting, what’s the point of spending gold on siege, what’s the point of thinking about what the best path of action is going to be, if you’re only going to get 1 point, the same as the server who’s non-existent?

Sure there’s fights, but that novelty will only last for so long, because eventually, the stronger force will just be consolidated and kicking your kitten , because one server has most likely signed off and isn’t providing a distraction to pull forces away.

This is hands down one of the dumbest, most poorly thought out changes they have implemented.

Basically, unless you care about winning (which now increases your chance of being double teamed because this change encourages it), you don’t even have to worry about showing up anymore, because why bother. This is a vain attempt to make scores look closer. Here is what it means for tier 1 NA… dont worry about winning, dont bother showing up, roll a tier 2 matchup next week so you can ktrain those poor kittens all week and farm back those glicko points to stay up in tier 1.

Once again, /slow clap anet…no class balance whatsoever in that patch, and now we have this idiotic change that you didn’t bother to announce in advance, no poll, no thread, no discussion.

I am so glad I stopped playing, and with changes like this, I doubt I will be bothering with WvW anytime soon even if I do bother coming back.

This system encourages play to win. Way better than the 3-2-1 where you put all your focus on the 2nd place server.

Now you actually have to win stuff.. win fights, win capture attempts, win skirmishes.

X T D.6458:

This is hands down one of the dumbest, most poorly thought out changes they have implemented.

Basically, unless you care about winning (which now increases your chance of being double teamed because this change encourages it), you don’t even have to worry about showing up anymore, because why bother. This is a vain attempt to make scores look closer. Here is what it means for tier 1 NA… dont worry about winning, dont bother showing up, roll a tier 2 matchup next week so you can ktrain those poor kittens all week and farm back those glicko points to stay up in tier 1.

Once again, /slow clap anet…no class balance whatsoever in that patch, and now we have this idiotic change that you didn’t bother to announce in advance, no poll, no thread, no discussion.

I am so glad I stopped playing, and with changes like this, I doubt I will be bothering with WvW anytime soon even if I do bother coming back.

^Blackgate Player

Oh, yeah. And one more thing. Someone said it before, but the ratio between 2 and 1 is even greater than the ratio between 2 and 3, so if there is a dominant server, it’s just gonna make a matchup with a dominant server even more of a run away match. I swear, do you guys think about this stuff? This is what’s obviously happening in the T1-3 matches. I’ll just say again, the ratios of 1,2,3 wasn’t that great, but better than this. Something like 3,4,5 would be better.

I will break this down for those that havent figured it out yet. Because this change basically punishes winning, making second place ironically the preferable placement in a matchup.

1st place-Higher chance to get double teamed all week long with this change, if you are in tier 1, there is almost no point in trying to win first place now. Your server cannot go higher and will not drop tiers because of glicko and the possibility of a tier 2 glicko roll which means a week long ktrain to farm back points.

2nd place- Little effort required, just simply score 1 point more then the 3rd server since you both get equal amount of points, there is little reason to care about even showing up. Higher chance of keeping blue color and alpine map. Higher chance of retaining position in a tier.

3rd place- Dont even bother showing up or playing for points. In tier 1, getting third means a very high chance of rolling a tier 2 match the next week meaning week long ktrain to refarm glicko and get tossed back into tier 1. Highest chance of rolling dbl.

GG anet for making second place the desirable goal. Keep reaching for those stars!

@XTD

So what you mean is that the new 2-1-1 skirmish scoring basically renders a population advantage useless.

Whats the point of having as many people of the other two servers combined if the other two servers are just going to team up on you.

What fun is that.

TorquedSoul.8097:

Whats the point of having as many people of the other two servers combined if the other two servers are just going to team up on you.

They key word being “if”. I haven’t seen it yet. Is there a match somewhere we can use as an example of the 2nd and 3rd placed servers teaming up yet?

we need to open bg guys its the only solution

X T D.6458:

I will break this down for those that havent figured it out yet. Because this change basically punishes winning, making second place ironically the preferable placement in a matchup.

1st place-Higher chance to get double teamed all week long with this change, if you are in tier 1, there is almost no point in trying to win first place now. Your server cannot go higher and will not drop tiers because of glicko and the possibility of a tier 2 glicko roll which means a week long ktrain to farm back points.

2nd place- Little effort required, just simply score 1 point more then the 3rd server since you both get equal amount of points, there is little reason to care about even showing up. Higher chance of keeping blue color and alpine map. Higher chance of retaining position in a tier.

3rd place- Dont even bother showing up or playing for points. In tier 1, getting third means a very high chance of rolling a tier 2 match the next week meaning week long ktrain to refarm glicko and get tossed back into tier 1. Highest chance of rolling dbl.

GG anet for making second place the desirable goal. Keep reaching for those stars!

BG confirmed. #OPENBG

This is the most horrible ridiculous scoring system Anet came up with yet. Are they trying to ruin WvW and make it obsolete. Im just sure Anet doesnt know what to do with WvW so their trying anything they can and it keeps getting worse. 2nd and 3rd place servers should get together and double team the 1st place server in the skirmish. We have nothing to lose but good fights and making new friends lol. WTG Anet in messing up WvW again.

X T D.6458:

I will break this down for those that havent figured it out yet. Because this change basically punishes winning, making second place ironically the preferable placement in a matchup.

All I hear is BG don’t like this because you have to work harder to win.

Solution: open BG.

For those of you that are so fixated on BG that you don’t even bother to read posts or understand changes, I will explain it to you. This change does absolutely nothing to hurt BG’s placement in tier 1. In fact it makes it easier then ever, with less effort required. Because now since 2nd and 3rd place servers get the same amount of points, you literally only need to win 1 skirmish to get 2nd place. Even a third place server can roll a tier 2 matchup, farm back the glicko points and get back into tier 1, as has been happening for so long now.

Also very sad, when people only support changes if it screws over a specific server.

morrolan.9608:

All I hear is BG don’t like this because you have to work harder to win.

Nah… I heard BG find effort laughable. So they don’t want to have effort to win.
Just open it and be done with it.

And if you guys read my posts, this effects all the tiers. Just look at the scores. Stop fixating on BG or T1. As the OP, I’ve never asked for BG to be open in this thread. I’m not insinuating that we should be. T4 seems to be the only one who is having an even match. That may just be an abberation.

Stop trolling. This is a serious problem.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Stop trolling. This is a serious problem.

No it is not… There are much worse problems than 2,1,1 or 3,2,1 scoring. I don’t care which we have in place but if they ask me which one I choose I’ll take 2,1,1 over 3,2,1 so Winner takes all and not stupid playing for 2nd.

When one side dominates the other two, it’s just not a competition. The skirmish system and/or new scores won’t change this at all.

There must be a reason why Arenanet won’t commit resources to creating a solution to the “dominant server” issue. Assuming that Gaile is correct when she says that “ArenaNet developers work on, care about, and support the different modes of playing Guild Wars 2 with equal passion, dedication, and interest.”, I’d say the solutions thus far are woefully inadequate when compared with the solutions that have been generated for other modes of playing. The resource allocation doesn’t appear to be even among the modes. Not by a long chalk!

How do you stop people from only playing on the #1 server? Poor #1 lost a week now they go poof.. 2 skirmishes all weekend long. Maybe if they start pulling OT again they will get their bandwagon back.

Chaba.5410:

TorquedSoul.8097:

Whats the point of having as many people of the other two servers combined if the other two servers are just going to team up on you.

They key word being “if”. I haven’t seen it yet. Is there a match somewhere we can use as an example of the 2nd and 3rd placed servers teaming up yet?

My understanding is that a certain tier 1 server is always double teamed. This change makes the double teaming even worse.

It really isn’t fair.

More population is now needed to counteract the double team.

There is only one way to achieve balance in WvW. Allow all servers to become overpopulated. All servers open. All guilds and players move to all servers simultaneously.

To facilitate this, Anet will need to create many parallel universes IRL.

Anet please hire quantum physicist to develop parallel universes for game balance.

Thanks.

……in short open BG
problem solved

TorquedSoul.8097:

Chaba.5410:

TorquedSoul.8097:

Whats the point of having as many people of the other two servers combined if the other two servers are just going to team up on you.

They key word being “if”. I haven’t seen it yet. Is there a match somewhere we can use as an example of the 2nd and 3rd placed servers teaming up yet?

My understanding is that a certain tier 1 server is always double teamed.

Wrong., assuming you mean BG.

This is a terrible change. Now my server doesn’t even fight once the matchup shows a win/loss about 15 mins in. We afk defend until the next one. 3-2-1 theres always someone close to you in score to try to pass or keep them from passing you. 2-1-1 theres a huge gap not worth bothering over. Nope no 2v1 here.

Gwaihir.1745:

This is a terrible change. Now my server doesn’t even fight once the matchup shows a win/loss about 15 mins in. We afk defend until the next one. 3-2-1 theres always someone close to you in score to try to pass or keep them from passing you. 2-1-1 theres a huge gap not worth bothering over. Nope no 2v1 here.

Ouch they give up after 15 mins? That’s a shame.. PPT will do that I guess. What about when matched up against a guaranteed win server? Do they all just fairweather out for the week? Been there I know it’s harsh.

I hope your guild still has fun playing together regardless. If your solo you should really move somewhere else.

Gwaihir.1745:

This is a terrible change. Now my server doesn’t even fight once the matchup shows a win/loss about 15 mins in. We afk defend until the next one. 3-2-1 theres always someone close to you in score to try to pass or keep them from passing you. 2-1-1 theres a huge gap not worth bothering over. Nope no 2v1 here.

It has been shown that scores are closer in the 2,1,1 system than the 3,2,1 system. If you choose not to fight because PPT during the skirmish is low thats a separate issue.

WORST IDEA EVER!!!!!!! I have done days where I worked my butt off for many hrs in wvw, and to have that not count at all would be offensive and awful.

What would be the point of trying to doing all that work ( and trying to also have fun, when there is a good chance you’d probably get in 2nd place which wouldn’t matter because 2ND and 3RD PLACE HAS THE SAME POINTS!!!!!

I’ve done wvw for about 4 years and this is a horrendous idea. Please reconsider and scrap this idea before you kill wvw even more. I’m begging you please please please.

It seems that is the trend in T1 and T2. What’s the point of defending, building any siege, or getting rid of a waypointed keep if after all that effort, the enemy still gets 1st in the skirmish and gets rewarded double the points. Meanwhile, the weaker server which may have done nothing or, even worse, harrassed you the whole time, gets the same amount of points.

I can’t speak for TC, but BG just stopped trying early on. I don’t have any ears in T2, but judging by the score, it seems the same there as well.

This has also affected the amount of roamers out there. If the contribution of small groups is gonna amount to diddly squat, then what’s the point? Gold means a lot more to small groups as they don’t have a large guild to contribute to siege and food. Sure, you can roam around and get into fights, but how long will it be until you find someone? Better to just go into PvP.

Wake up, Anet! Look at the scores!

Spurnshadow.3678:

It seems that is the trend in T1 and T2. What’s the point of defending, building any siege, or getting rid of a waypointed keep if after all that effort, the enemy still gets 1st in the skirmish and gets rewarded double the points. Meanwhile, the weaker server which may have done nothing or, even worse, harrassed you the whole time, gets the same amount of points.

I can’t speak for TC, but BG just stopped trying early on. I don’t have any ears in T2, but judging by the score, it seems the same there as well.

This has also affected the amount of roamers out there. If the contribution of small groups is gonna amount to diddly squat, then what’s the point? Gold means a lot more to small groups as they don’t have a large guild to contribute to siege and food. Sure, you can roam around and get into fights, but how long will it be until you find someone? Better to just go into PvP.

Wake up, Anet! Look at the scores!

There’s nothing wrong with the current scores. I simply moved from Blackgate to Maguuma. Coincidentally, Maguuma reached #1 same week I transferred. There’s more to a player than just his skillful gameplay. Same goes for in a war.

Spurnshadow.3678:

It seems that is the trend in T1 and T2. What’s the point of defending, building any siege, or getting rid of a waypointed keep if after all that effort, the enemy still gets 1st in the skirmish and gets rewarded double the points. Meanwhile, the weaker server which may have done nothing or, even worse, harrassed you the whole time, gets the same amount of points.

I can’t speak for TC, but BG just stopped trying early on. I don’t have any ears in T2, but judging by the score, it seems the same there as well.

This has also affected the amount of roamers out there. If the contribution of small groups is gonna amount to diddly squat, then what’s the point? Gold means a lot more to small groups as they don’t have a large guild to contribute to siege and food. Sure, you can roam around and get into fights, but how long will it be until you find someone? Better to just go into PvP.

Wake up, Anet! Look at the scores!

Taking a t3 keep or whatnot helps you in the next skirmish though….. Also don’t blame the scoring system for BG purposely tanking in order to get a server link, that’s why the score is so lopsided.

aandiarie.7195:

What would be the point of trying to doing all that work ( and trying to also have fun, when there is a good chance you’d probably get in 2nd place which wouldn’t matter because 2ND and 3RD PLACE HAS THE SAME POINTS!!!!!

The point is to play for 1st place and not for 2nd.

The only problem I see is that smaller servers used to have some semblance of a force to defend their stuff even if they can’t win that timezone. Now there’s very little to no point to doing this since you won’t win anyway.

The only time worth showing up is the timezone you know you can push for a win, might be NA prime for some, might be OCX for SoS etc.

This is all from the PPT perspective, guilds that look for fights don’t care about this stuff anyway.

Spurnshadow.3678:

One server could just not play and have no negative consequence.

Theoretically sure that could happen. Is it a reasonable to think this might happen though? no, lol.

Lets say 1 server just doesn’t play at all, so always getting the same ppt as 2nd place is. WEll then the other 2 servers would have to maintain their positions for EVERY skirmish. That’s ALOT of uptime that the winning server would have to cover. And that’s ALOT of opportunity and TIME for 2nd place server to coordinate a 2 hours sessions where they can overtake the winner. All they would need to do is win 1 skirmish….

If teams are sooooooooooo uneven that this is impossible then it isn’t the new scoring systems fault, its the matchmaking. Regardless its unreasonable to think that a team that does nothing will get 2nd place.

The new scoring system is a good way to collect data. And although it continues the legacy of flaws of the previous scoring system, it is an improvement over the previous scoring system.

fishball.7204:

The only problem I see is that smaller servers used to have some semblance of a force to defend their stuff even if they can’t win that timezone. Now there’s very little to no point to doing this since you won’t win anyway.

The only time worth showing up is the timezone you know you can push for a win, might be NA prime for some, might be OCX for SoS etc.

This is all from the PPT perspective, guilds that look for fights don’t care about this stuff anyway.

The guilds that care about PPT and “winning” WvW will eventually realize that it’s still important to defend their stuff and bust the enemy upgrades to have a better chance of winning in their stronger time zones.