Guild Wars 2

Thieves are fine.

I am getting really tired of:

Bunker guardians that take 2+ players to take down. Pull/shatter mesmers that can nuke a class while they are trying to stand up from a pull. Bunker eles that are almost impossible to catch if a player can whittle them down. Necros and their ridiculous hitpoint pools. Regen rangers and sick’em damage. Engineers blowing stuff up, slowing, dropping turrets… on and on and on…

OK, I am not really tired of these but any player that is good is going to be a PIA to beat. At this point pretty much every class is dangerous in the right hands.

Loco.4561:

Players need to be able to either a) Track thieves in stealth by using some sort of debuff that makes them slightly more visible or b) Be able to debuff a thief so he cannot stealth for 10 seconds.

preventing stealth would be obnoxious in the other direction, but the first idea is spot on. I’ve been saying over and over, have flicker-on-hit and/or retain visible condition particle effects (like burning) when stealthed so the thief can be tracked (albeit not targeted)

Piogre.2164:

Loco.4561:

Players need to be able to either a) Track thieves in stealth by using some sort of debuff that makes them slightly more visible or b) Be able to debuff a thief so he cannot stealth for 10 seconds.

preventing stealth would be obnoxious in the other direction, but the first idea is spot on. I’ve been saying over and over, have flicker-on-hit and/or retain visible condition particle effects (like burning) when stealthed so the thief can be tracked (albeit not targeted)

It doesn’t matter if you can’t target them as you can just cleave with mele. You should be able to predict a thief without this suggested crutch anyways… god knows I do all day long on all of my classes. Thief is fine.

Other day we had a thief hiding out in one of our towers permastealthed. His dead mesmer buddy was laying there for 30 minutes swapping armour to avoid getting kicked for inactivity. Later he did the same thing in one of our keeps.

Thief could not be killed purely because he did not want to be killed.

Working as intended.

I get that thieves are supposed to be able to be sneaky. But this whole thing of locking an underpopulated server into an empty tower or keep for 30 minutes to an hour, in a battle of patience is very tedious. If we get bored and leave, he resses his mesmer buddy and we have our keep flipped. Yawn. Fix it please, it’s just boring abuse right now.

Dual.8953:

It’s annoying. Thieves are weak at everything but minor feats in wvw like killing dolyaks, and weakened opponents. They’re practically more newbie check then they an actual class. In PvE, they’re that damage class with less dps and support then warrior. In Spvp, they’re that dueling class that can’t hold a point. Yet that doesn’t stop people from demanding that they get nerfed at the one thing they’re good at.

Have you seen the endless aoe thieves can do with cluster bomb? Thieves dont have any problems in a zerg unless they were unfortunate enough to go full zerker.

Not to mention having the best survivability in wvw? (notice I didn’t say mitigation) How about the best burst damage and amazing mobility?

Amazing how people running a low skill threshold two button class can cry about nerfs, since it’s the general consensus that thief is most in need of the hammer right now.

They roam fine, and they zerg fine. I guess it’s just hard to see how unbalanced they are when you’re running one as your only toon. Try having an 80 of each class and playing them for long enough to get a good understanding of how each one works, then you will see how broken thief is.

Straegen.2938:

I am getting really tired of:

Bunker guardians that take 2+ players to take down. Pull/shatter mesmers that can nuke a class while they are trying to stand up from a pull. Bunker eles that are almost impossible to catch if a player can whittle them down. Necros and their ridiculous hitpoint pools. Regen rangers and sick’em damage. Engineers blowing stuff up, slowing, dropping turrets… on and on and on…

OK, I am not really tired of these but any player that is good is going to be a PIA to beat. At this point pretty much every class is dangerous in the right hands.

“All the classes are equal but some are more equal than others.”

best party in www.

a mesmser and a thief .

they can do anything !!!

The problem with stealth is that it is a one man/woman game right now. Once a thief uses stealth there is no way to remove it. The devs should treat stealth like a boon that it is (albeit a special one) and give other professions a way to remove stealth from a thief the same way a thief can just strip boons from them.

A ranger would be a perfect profession for it, have their traps and some shouts strip stealth from thieves, being an anti-thief profession would make up for the otherwise lackluster set of skills and traits that rangers have.

I already talked about this in detail here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Introduce-counters-to-Stealth-mechanic-in-WvW/first#post1611347

That would be a great idea actually. Rangers would have their own anti stealth traps. And give warrior a new shout “Stop hiding coward!” that causes thieves to drop out of stealth and get 10s of reveal. Eles could get some sort of trait that would proc reveal on certain spells, Necros marks could have a reveal debuff, that push move with GS that mesmers have could cause reveal, engineers could throw some sort of revealing grenade, guardians could also have a shout or maybe that fire field thing they throw down could cause reveal.

One thing that I’m annoyed at is how people use ‘hit the stealthed Thief’ as a ‘counter’ to stealth, when obviously it is not.

Is the ‘counter’ to protection continuing to hit the enemy? No, the counter to protection is to remove/convert it. Even Anet agreed when they implemented ‘boon hate’, stating that bunkers needed a counter.

So how is the ‘counter’ to stealth continuing to (maybe) hit him? It doesn’t remove, negate, or reduce stealth’s effect in any way.

The only true ‘counter’ is the long-cast-time stealth trap, which is too expensive and clunky to use.

We’ll probably never get a fair counter to stealth as it is Anet’s golden child. one of the devs mains a thief so they’re pretty biased on the whole balance issue.

Sunflowers.1729:

One thing that I’m annoyed at is how people use ‘hit the stealthed Thief’ as a ‘counter’ to stealth, when obviously it is not.

Is the ‘counter’ to protection continuing to hit the enemy? No, the counter to protection is to remove/convert it. Even Anet agreed when they implemented ‘boon hate’, stating that bunkers needed a counter.

So how is the ‘counter’ to stealth continuing to (maybe) hit him? It doesn’t remove, negate, or reduce stealth’s effect in any way.

The only true ‘counter’ is the long-cast-time stealth trap, which is too expensive and clunky to use.

So much this. The only stealth skill that has an actual counter is Shadow Refuge, every other stealth skill that’s available to the Mesmer and Thief has absolutely no drawbacks or counter. It’s kind of silly that this has gone on for so long now. I really wish Anet were more aware of just how powerful stealth is in this game.

I long for the day when someone is ganked by a well stealthed Thief in WvW and when they moan on chat, I get to say “just use your reveal skills” instead of the longer convoluted explanation I have to give that usually just aggravates them further.

Iluth.6875:

Dual.8953:

It’s annoying. Thieves are weak at everything but minor feats in wvw like killing dolyaks, and weakened opponents. They’re practically more newbie check then they an actual class. In PvE, they’re that damage class with less dps and support then warrior. In Spvp, they’re that dueling class that can’t hold a point. Yet that doesn’t stop people from demanding that they get nerfed at the one thing they’re good at.

Have you seen the endless aoe thieves can do with cluster bomb? Thieves dont have any problems in a zerg unless they were unfortunate enough to go full zerker.

Not to mention having the best survivability in wvw? (notice I didn’t say mitigation) How about the best burst damage and amazing mobility?

Amazing how people running a low skill threshold two button class can cry about nerfs, since it’s the general consensus that thief is most in need of the hammer right now.

They roam fine, and they zerg fine. I guess it’s just hard to see how unbalanced they are when you’re running one as your only toon. Try having an 80 of each class and playing them for long enough to get a good understanding of how each one works, then you will see how broken thief is.

I’ve got an 80 Engie and Guardian too. I have no trouble with thieves on them, or any of my upleveleds. They feel like easy mode compared to my Thief, able to hold thier own against up to 5 opponents. Short bow can’t even compare in a zerg to coated bullets or staff. I can kill easier on them and take on more enemies at once, so why should I see Thief as op’d when my other 80s make it look like a joke, and other thieves don’t even remotely threaten any of my toons?

Stealth itself is a poor mechanic, it’s quite shameful that Anet decided to use it.

Nikkinella.8254:

We’ll probably never get a fair counter to stealth as it is Anet’s golden child. one of the devs mains a thief so they’re pretty biased on the whole balance issue.

exactly.

Simonoly.4352:

The only stealth skill that has an actual counter is Shadow Refuge, every other stealth skill that’s available to the Mesmer and Thief has absolutely no drawbacks or counter.

ITT: People still fail to understand that the major drawback to stealth is the combat downtime. Thieves are trading the ability to attack for the ability to not be seen, essentially self-dazing for the duration they want to remain hidden. That is huge, and the main reason why “go attack them why they’re stealthed” is the best and most viable counter. A large majority of the population now, a year after release, still doesn’t even bother to try exploiting stealth’s greatest drawback, and simply gives thieves free un-pressured downtime. Thieves don’t steal their kills, they’re handed them on a silver platter by players that react to stealth like NPCs (“Welp, he’s gone, better wander off now…”).

Tulisin.6945:

… “go attack them why they’re stealthed” is the best and most viable counter.

Cool! Where do I attack?

Tulisin.6945:

ITT: People still fail to understand that the major drawback to stealth is the combat downtime. Thieves are trading the ability to attack for the ability to not be seen, essentially self-dazing for the duration they want to remain hidden. That is huge, and the main reason why “go attack them why they’re stealthed” is the best and most viable counter. A large majority of the population now, a year after release, still doesn’t even bother to try exploiting stealth’s greatest drawback, and simply gives thieves free un-pressured downtime. Thieves don’t steal their kills, they’re handed them on a silver platter by players that react to stealth like NPCs (“Welp, he’s gone, better wander off now…”).

Right… I keep hearing this argument.
‘Attack the invisible guy you can’t see and have no idea where he is! Just attack him!’
‘Throw down AoE and hopefully you’ll hit him!’
Reality check. Even if you do hit him you aren’t likely to drop him. Even better, you aren’t even sure you hit him, because nothing breaks a Thief out of Stealth.
But its okay… Just keep attacking the invisible guy…

Nikkinella.8254:

We’ll probably never get a fair counter to stealth as it is Anet’s golden child. one of the devs mains a thief so they’re pretty biased on the whole balance issue.

Oh so that’s why thieves are top tier in everything, and people look down their noses at them when they lfg for dungeons. One of the Devs mains a thief. You realize that’s a stupid argument right? It completely ignores the fact that other devs main other classes.

Easiest, and most reliable counter to stealth that wouldn’t break the class would be to just make it so that there’s a silhouette of the character when they’re in x-vision radius in front of your character (i.e. 150m frontal cone in front of you). That is close enough so that people with good situational awareness will be able to keep up with them, yet makes it so that a good juke by the thief / mesmer will be rewarded. Also I 100% agree that Rangers above all the other classes should have some way of countering stealth. Be it that their pets can see them and continue to attack / track them if the thief / mesmer stays in say a 300-450 vision range, or something, but blinding whacking the air in the hopes of finding the sneaky kitten is something that should not be common place.

Setun.4368:

Easiest, and most reliable counter to stealth that wouldn’t break the class would be to just make it so that there’s a silhouette of the character when they’re in x-vision radius in front of your character (i.e. 150m frontal cone in front of you). That is close enough so that people with good situational awareness will be able to keep up with them, yet makes it so that a good juke by the thief / mesmer will be rewarded. Also I 100% agree that Rangers above all the other classes should have some way of countering stealth. Be it that their pets can see them and continue to attack / track them if the thief / mesmer stays in say a 300-450 vision range, or something, but blinding whacking the air in the hopes of finding the sneaky kitten is something that should not be common place.

When you say 150m, we talking sword cleave range or 150 meters? (It also makes me wonder how it’d effect thieves in large battles. They’re designed to sneak past the enemy line to strike the back row, this could put a huge damper on their ability to fulfill that roll)

i had a bunker guardian and yesterday i re-rolled a thief.

what a class … even as a lvl 2 armor/weapon/skills the char is a badges collector

What I used to like to do before I got bored with the class is camp near the base where the giant grub spawns. right near that doorway and shank people as they run out. You just have to wait for the right opportunity. You could take out like half the zerg when they’re frantically running towards SM and not paying attention to one lone person. By the time anyone realizes you’re there you can get away. You don’t even need to get all the way to 80. just high enough to get dagger storm. and just watch the badges pile up as you faceroll everything. It does get boring very fast though. But I suppose its good for people who like easy mode. I’m probably going to delete it since I don’t have any slots left and wanted to make a necro. right now its just a town clothes/food/bank mule.

In WvW a thief with the right build and any brains will never die. They are the best roaming class. It’s not really thieves in general that are OP, just their Shadow arts and Acrobatics trait lines that make them able to do anything they want without fear of death.

mzt.3270:

Howdy Rain,
I think in honesty you will get a mix of answers. You will have the ones who state there is an issue and the ones who will defend the current state of the class as if " its your fault you can’t hit us… oh err them." :P, That in addition with little or no evidence to back up the claims". I use a lot of confusion and traps to counter them, sometimes it works and sometimes not. Locking onto them being a ranged class is very very difficult and its something I would like clarification on too, if stealthed classes can be hit by ranged classes without a lock. I wish you all the best that you find an answer.

Thieves though don’t have it easy in other terms, we have to be fair on them on that respects. You get some really great guys playing thieves, the perm stealthers are the troll class and always have been. The perm stealth thief to me is the chickens way out, you fight them, they lose health, they run away and hide for a bit so you can’t clip them on the ear and then come back to win when you least expect it = TROLL. When you lose they are running about dancing on your corpse, then they lose its Meryl Streep time. Why you think most thieves take the perm stealth build as is? The thief that fights you on limited stealth are the coolest guys going, there are some good eggs going about and the fights are awesome. The rest are just banking on the fact they can’t stand losing and want the best way to get the edge . That is pretty much a chickens ways out. You won anyway for choosing a class that takes a bundle of skill to use, mesmers are kitten hard to play. WTG.

You couldn’t be any more wrong. Please read about playing to win http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html
It isn’t being a “chicken” as you seem to want to describe it (even sounds sort of kitten), it’s knowing your strengths, not matter how “cheap” it is and using it.

You might want to reevaluate your position on this.

I don’t bother fighting thieves since I know I I don’t burst them immedietely, then’ll jsut stealth, hang around, get annoying and slowly wear me down both because they have more DoT (as they can constantly see you) and I jsut get frustrated and mess up. If a thief comes up and I see them stealth, I wait about two seconds, spin around by moving mouse side to side, dodge then whatever, just to mess with them…. then i proceed to run away

Thieves aren’t OP at all, just extremely annoying that a single cheese tactic seems to be the staple style of most thieves in W3. Not going to be a cheese thief so I’ll actually be useful and play the role thieves should be doing rather than wimping out when you see more than two people.

A couple people in this thread seem to think thieves offer nothing to a Team beyond roaming. I strike that odd considering we use them for various things in organized play.

Cleric/Apoth Venom Share builds with our front lines.
Shortbow Blast finisher spam for Waterfields and Chill.
Dagger storm is the longest whirl finisher in the game I believe. There’s a lot of potential with both water fields, Light fields, and Chill.

I’m likely missing a few things, but they have a place in organized play. Usually Engineer or the Rangers in the guild just get “no”. This is because Grenade damage, though good, is out shined by Elementalist for burst, Necromancers for condition pressure and is subject to massive amounts of retaliation damage. This means you have to trade off damage for survivability to ensure you don’t flatten yourself. Rangers bring a long duration water field, but so does Elementalist. Though an Engineer CAN perform in a team comp, a Thief will usually be brought over one.

John Widdin.9618:

A couple people in this thread seem to think thieves offer nothing to a Team beyond roaming. I strike that odd considering we use them for various things in organized play.

Cleric/Apoth Venom Share builds with our front lines.
Shortbow Blast finisher spam for Waterfields and Chill.
Dagger storm is the longest whirl finisher in the game I believe. There’s a lot of potential with both water fields, Light fields, and Chill.

I’m likely missing a few things, but they have a place in organized play. Usually Engineer or the Rangers in the guild just get “no”. This is because Grenade damage, though good, is out shined by Elementalist for burst, Necromancers for condition pressure and is subject to massive amounts of retaliation damage. This means you have to trade off damage for survivability to ensure you don’t flatten yourself. Rangers bring a long duration water field, but so does Elementalist. Though an Engineer CAN perform in a team comp, a Thief will usually be brought over one.

But all of the things you mentions, IMO, other classes offer better and/or more of them. Which of those you have said do you think a thief does better and/or can use more of? I agree with you regarding Ranger and Engineers, other classes do better, but I see the same with thiefs.

sostronk.8167:

John Widdin.9618:

A couple people in this thread seem to think thieves offer nothing to a Team beyond roaming. I strike that odd considering we use them for various things in organized play.

Cleric/Apoth Venom Share builds with our front lines.
Shortbow Blast finisher spam for Waterfields and Chill.
Dagger storm is the longest whirl finisher in the game I believe. There’s a lot of potential with both water fields, Light fields, and Chill.

I’m likely missing a few things, but they have a place in organized play. Usually Engineer or the Rangers in the guild just get “no”. This is because Grenade damage, though good, is out shined by Elementalist for burst, Necromancers for condition pressure and is subject to massive amounts of retaliation damage. This means you have to trade off damage for survivability to ensure you don’t flatten yourself. Rangers bring a long duration water field, but so does Elementalist. Though an Engineer CAN perform in a team comp, a Thief will usually be brought over one.

But all of the things you mentions, IMO, other classes offer better and/or more of them. Which of those you have said do you think a thief does better and/or can use more of? I agree with you regarding Ranger and Engineers, other classes do better, but I see the same with thiefs.

Well the blast finishers is really just them, unless we bring an engineer. We really mainly bring them for the venom share, which adds additional CC to our front line. Forcing people to blow stun breaks is important after boon strips have gone off and we try to Static field People.

Oh, and I neglected to mention shadow refuge. Very useful for stealthing our mesmers, for portals against disorganized groups.

The proper solution to the class would be to limit access to stealth. Not to change stealth. Stealth has existed in pretty much every MMO in existence and not every one of them has had direct ways to counter it.

The problem I see with the overwhelming majority of people in this thread is you simply don’t play a thief. From the comments I’m convinced most of you haven’t even bothered trying to make a level 1 thief and playing some sPvP with it. If you did, you’d realize just how fragile stealth and the class is and you’d be suggesting more viable solutions to the problem. If you played the thief you’d probably also have a better grasp on just what was overpowered.

In my opinion, the only problem with the thief class right now is its access to initiative regen skills and traits. If the initiative regen was more level across the board it would be easier to balance. With high initiative regen they’re able to enter stealth more often, which then leads to more burst and regen/condi removal, which leads to more survivability.

On the flip side, the class would be 100% useless if stealth was changed in any fashion without dramatic improvements elsewhere. You wouldn’t understand this unless you actually played the class.

Levelling mine with P/P and SBow focusing on condition cos I’m lazy so no stealth at all. I’ll theory a proper build when closer to 80 though so my opinion is from this. Changing regen rates would hurt the Sbow utility too much I feel, though the only issue I have is frequency of stealth. If you’re fighting an opponent you don’t see for what seems to be 3/4 of the fight, something’s a little off.

No idea how to ‘fix’ this since no firsthand PvP experience with the class yet, but lowering the frequency seems to be the safest way to solve problems at first without affecting team oriented builds.

Ross Biddle.2367:

The thief runs away. You’ve won,

See that is exactly one of the many problems with the thief. My reward is absolutely NOTHING, and his reward is badges, chance for rares, money, and ANYTHING else a player could drop? That is quite the disparity.

John Widdin.9618:

sostronk.8167:

John Widdin.9618:

A couple people in this thread seem to think thieves offer nothing to a Team beyond roaming. I strike that odd considering we use them for various things in organized play.

Cleric/Apoth Venom Share builds with our front lines.
Shortbow Blast finisher spam for Waterfields and Chill.
Dagger storm is the longest whirl finisher in the game I believe. There’s a lot of potential with both water fields, Light fields, and Chill.

I’m likely missing a few things, but they have a place in organized play. Usually Engineer or the Rangers in the guild just get “no”. This is because Grenade damage, though good, is out shined by Elementalist for burst, Necromancers for condition pressure and is subject to massive amounts of retaliation damage. This means you have to trade off damage for survivability to ensure you don’t flatten yourself. Rangers bring a long duration water field, but so does Elementalist. Though an Engineer CAN perform in a team comp, a Thief will usually be brought over one.

But all of the things you mentions, IMO, other classes offer better and/or more of them. Which of those you have said do you think a thief does better and/or can use more of? I agree with you regarding Ranger and Engineers, other classes do better, but I see the same with thiefs.

Well the blast finishers is really just them, unless we bring an engineer. We really mainly bring them for the venom share, which adds additional CC to our front line. Forcing people to blow stun breaks is important after boon strips have gone off and we try to Static field People.

Oh, and I neglected to mention shadow refuge. Very useful for stealthing our mesmers, for portals against disorganized groups.

But they do nothing that another class cannot do better?

I find these threads overly frustrating. The big issue is D/P permastealth builds where you do not have to sacrifice damage output and can permastealth in and out of a fight. It is the flavour of the month build atm and its OP, no doubt about this. The heartseeker on blinding powder does not apply a “debuff” when it deals damage. All they have to do is fix that and see what happens from there. After that they may need to nerf the traits so its not so easy to get permastealth without a reasonable loss of DPS, but Id rather they just fixed D/P stealth debuff not applying first because thief is IMO one of the three weakest classes in the game overall (along with ranger and engi).

D/P is only powerful because initiative regen allows it to maintain perma stealth and lose no DPS from hidden killer+backstab+heartseeker.

The initiative regen needs to be balanced across the board. Maybe have a single trait to increase the cap and that’s it. It all regens at the same rate regardless of build. That way if you use a more utility oriented weapon set like D/P over D/D you would actually show a real DPS loss for doing it.

Once initiative regen is fixed then we can worry about compensating the class for it as only people who haven’t played the class would think nerfing stealth won’t have enormous ramifications on the class as a whole.

Atherakhia.4086:

D/P is only powerful because initiative regen allows it to maintain perma stealth and lose no DPS from hidden killer+backstab+heartseeker.

The initiative regen needs to be balanced across the board. Maybe have a single trait to increase the cap and that’s it. It all regens at the same rate regardless of build. That way if you use a more utility oriented weapon set like D/P over D/D you would actually show a real DPS loss for doing it.

Once initiative regen is fixed then we can worry about compensating the class for it as only people who haven’t played the class would think nerfing stealth won’t have enormous ramifications on the class as a whole.

Kinda true. But you should still be getting a reveal status when you attack from stealth with a heartseeker – combo field is not doing and thus broken. But totally, this permastealth build is kitten. If your able to permastealth you should be paying for it in loss of DPS.

nirvana.8245:

Atherakhia.4086:

D/P is only powerful because initiative regen allows it to maintain perma stealth and lose no DPS from hidden killer+backstab+heartseeker.

The initiative regen needs to be balanced across the board. Maybe have a single trait to increase the cap and that’s it. It all regens at the same rate regardless of build. That way if you use a more utility oriented weapon set like D/P over D/D you would actually show a real DPS loss for doing it.

Once initiative regen is fixed then we can worry about compensating the class for it as only people who haven’t played the class would think nerfing stealth won’t have enormous ramifications on the class as a whole.

Kinda true. But you should still be getting a reveal status when you attack from stealth with a heartseeker – combo field is not doing and thus broken. But totally, this permastealth build is kitten. If your able to permastealth you should be paying for it in loss of DPS.

I’m sorry but you are wrong. Smoke field combo is not broken. If you are in stealth and hit someone you get revealed. If you hs thru smokefield while visible the system processes damage then applies combo bonus. If it did not work this way it would be broken and worthless

Shemsu.8721:

nirvana.8245:

Atherakhia.4086:

D/P is only powerful because initiative regen allows it to maintain perma stealth and lose no DPS from hidden killer+backstab+heartseeker.

The initiative regen needs to be balanced across the board. Maybe have a single trait to increase the cap and that’s it. It all regens at the same rate regardless of build. That way if you use a more utility oriented weapon set like D/P over D/D you would actually show a real DPS loss for doing it.

Once initiative regen is fixed then we can worry about compensating the class for it as only people who haven’t played the class would think nerfing stealth won’t have enormous ramifications on the class as a whole.

Kinda true. But you should still be getting a reveal status when you attack from stealth with a heartseeker – combo field is not doing and thus broken. But totally, this permastealth build is kitten. If your able to permastealth you should be paying for it in loss of DPS.

I’m sorry but you are wrong. Smoke field combo is not broken. If you are in stealth and hit someone you get revealed. If you hs thru smokefield while visible the system processes damage then applies combo bonus. If it did not work this way it would be broken and worthless

I can so I’m right.

nirvana.8245:

Shemsu.8721:

nirvana.8245:

Atherakhia.4086:

D/P is only powerful because initiative regen allows it to maintain perma stealth and lose no DPS from hidden killer+backstab+heartseeker.

The initiative regen needs to be balanced across the board. Maybe have a single trait to increase the cap and that’s it. It all regens at the same rate regardless of build. That way if you use a more utility oriented weapon set like D/P over D/D you would actually show a real DPS loss for doing it.

Once initiative regen is fixed then we can worry about compensating the class for it as only people who haven’t played the class would think nerfing stealth won’t have enormous ramifications on the class as a whole.

Kinda true. But you should still be getting a reveal status when you attack from stealth with a heartseeker – combo field is not doing and thus broken. But totally, this permastealth build is kitten. If your able to permastealth you should be paying for it in loss of DPS.

I’m sorry but you are wrong. Smoke field combo is not broken. If you are in stealth and hit someone you get revealed. If you hs thru smokefield while visible the system processes damage then applies combo bonus. If it did not work this way it would be broken and worthless

I can so I’m right.

OK. So your claiming you can stealth then attack and damage someone and not gain revealed? Video plz or false.

Don’t worry, the massive Hammer-NERF is coming to Thieves on the 25th and I will surely be making the most OP class in the game: Guardian.

June 25, 2013 — Thieves will be the least played class due to the mass nerf it is getting.

Shemsu.8721:

nirvana.8245:

Shemsu.8721:

nirvana.8245:

Atherakhia.4086:

D/P is only powerful because initiative regen allows it to maintain perma stealth and lose no DPS from hidden killer+backstab+heartseeker.

The initiative regen needs to be balanced across the board. Maybe have a single trait to increase the cap and that’s it. It all regens at the same rate regardless of build. That way if you use a more utility oriented weapon set like D/P over D/D you would actually show a real DPS loss for doing it.

Once initiative regen is fixed then we can worry about compensating the class for it as only people who haven’t played the class would think nerfing stealth won’t have enormous ramifications on the class as a whole.

Kinda true. But you should still be getting a reveal status when you attack from stealth with a heartseeker – combo field is not doing and thus broken. But totally, this permastealth build is kitten. If your able to permastealth you should be paying for it in loss of DPS.

I’m sorry but you are wrong. Smoke field combo is not broken. If you are in stealth and hit someone you get revealed. If you hs thru smokefield while visible the system processes damage then applies combo bonus. If it did not work this way it would be broken and worthless

I can so I’m right.

OK. So your claiming you can stealth then attack and damage someone and not gain revealed? Video plz or false.

Hang on a sec, Ill back this up. You just told me the ability to permastealth is completely useless. Care to explain?

Crawford.4135:

Don’t worry, the massive Hammer-NERF is coming to Thieves on the 25th and I will surely be making the most OP class in the game: Guardian.

June 25, 2013 — Thieves will be the least played class due to the mass nerf it is getting.

Not sure if being sarcastic or not.. If not, you’re overreacting I think. Doesn’t look THAT bad… still doesn’t address cheese perma stealth but with my basic understanding, is a buff to thieves who rely less on stealth as a ‘get out of jail free’ card and more of a tool to their arsenal. Could be horribly wrong though

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Tulisin.6945:

ITT: People still fail to understand that the major drawback to stealth is the combat downtime. Thieves are trading the ability to attack for the ability to not be seen, essentially self-dazing for the duration they want to remain hidden. That is huge, and the main reason why “go attack them why they’re stealthed” is the best and most viable counter. A large majority of the population now, a year after release, still doesn’t even bother to try exploiting stealth’s greatest drawback, and simply gives thieves free un-pressured downtime. Thieves don’t steal their kills, they’re handed them on a silver platter by players that react to stealth like NPCs (“Welp, he’s gone, better wander off now…”).

Right… I keep hearing this argument.
‘Attack the invisible guy you can’t see and have no idea where he is! Just attack him!’
‘Throw down AoE and hopefully you’ll hit him!’
Reality check. Even if you do hit him you aren’t likely to drop him. Even better, you aren’t even sure you hit him, because nothing breaks a Thief out of Stealth.
But its okay… Just keep attacking the invisible guy…

Firstly, I didn’t say to throw down AE and there’s a good reason why: AE is great for movement control, but it is an abysmal way to pressure a stealthed target. Anyone who is suggesting “use AE” as a way to kill stealthed targets is perpetuating a very ineffective tactic. If your response to losing your targets is to throw circles all over the ground then you need to stop, and you need to tell your misinformed friend to stop too.

Secondly, reality check: Procs trigger and your combat log records hit like any other hit in the game. The constant arguments “I can’t tell if I’m hitting” and “You can’t use ranged attacks against stealthed targets” go to show that a large portion of people having issues with stealth do not understand how to play GW2.

As for where to attack, that onus is entirely on your skill as a player. Good players anticipate where the thief will be and strike there, good thieves will anticipate that their opponents will try to do that and will move deceptively in stealth. The good news for you as someone trying to kill a thief is that most thieves are terrible and have never learned how to move properly in stealth (because, as mentioned, nobody actually pressures them, they just wander off). If you anticipate the thief is going to remain on the offense, they’re probably making a beeline for a spot behind you so they can reinitiate. If you anticipate that the thief is trying to escape, they’re probably beelining towards friendly territory directly away from you. It only takes one or two successful strikes to completely obliterate any advantage stealth has given the thief, they’ve traded combat uptime for effectively nothing.

The counter to stealth is dynamic-behavioral, yet people continue to request a mechanical counter to a skill that is not mechanically-based.

nirvana.8245:

Shemsu.8721:

nirvana.8245:

Shemsu.8721:

nirvana.8245:

Atherakhia.4086:

D/P is only powerful because initiative regen allows it to maintain perma stealth and lose no DPS from hidden killer+backstab+heartseeker.

The initiative regen needs to be balanced across the board. Maybe have a single trait to increase the cap and that’s it. It all regens at the same rate regardless of build. That way if you use a more utility oriented weapon set like D/P over D/D you would actually show a real DPS loss for doing it.

Once initiative regen is fixed then we can worry about compensating the class for it as only people who haven’t played the class would think nerfing stealth won’t have enormous ramifications on the class as a whole.

Kinda true. But you should still be getting a reveal status when you attack from stealth with a heartseeker – combo field is not doing and thus broken. But totally, this permastealth build is kitten. If your able to permastealth you should be paying for it in loss of DPS.

I’m sorry but you are wrong. Smoke field combo is not broken. If you are in stealth and hit someone you get revealed. If you hs thru smokefield while visible the system processes damage then applies combo bonus. If it did not work this way it would be broken and worthless

I can so I’m right.

OK. So your claiming you can stealth then attack and damage someone and not gain revealed? Video plz or false.

Hang on a sec, Ill back this up. You just told me the ability to permastealth is completely useless. Care to explain?

are you mixing up threads or something? Put the pipe down and read again. I said If you are in stealth and damage someone with heartseeker you get revealed. You said this was not true. I asked for proof

Shemsu.8721:

nirvana.8245:

Shemsu.8721:

nirvana.8245:

Shemsu.8721:

nirvana.8245:

Atherakhia.4086:

D/P is only powerful because initiative regen allows it to maintain perma stealth and lose no DPS from hidden killer+backstab+heartseeker.

The initiative regen needs to be balanced across the board. Maybe have a single trait to increase the cap and that’s it. It all regens at the same rate regardless of build. That way if you use a more utility oriented weapon set like D/P over D/D you would actually show a real DPS loss for doing it.

Once initiative regen is fixed then we can worry about compensating the class for it as only people who haven’t played the class would think nerfing stealth won’t have enormous ramifications on the class as a whole.

Kinda true. But you should still be getting a reveal status when you attack from stealth with a heartseeker – combo field is not doing and thus broken. But totally, this permastealth build is kitten. If your able to permastealth you should be paying for it in loss of DPS.

I’m sorry but you are wrong. Smoke field combo is not broken. If you are in stealth and hit someone you get revealed. If you hs thru smokefield while visible the system processes damage then applies combo bonus. If it did not work this way it would be broken and worthless

I can so I’m right.

OK. So your claiming you can stealth then attack and damage someone and not gain revealed? Video plz or false.

Hang on a sec, Ill back this up. You just told me the ability to permastealth is completely useless. Care to explain?

are you mixing up threads or something? Put the pipe down and read again. I said If you are in stealth and damage someone with heartseeker you get revealed. You said this was not true. I asked for proof

I’m referring to this:

“If it did not work this way it would be broken and worthless”. Id like to know why you think a mechanic that can provide permanent stealth would be broken and worthless.

nirvana.8245:

Shemsu.8721:

nirvana.8245:

Shemsu.8721:

nirvana.8245:

Shemsu.8721:

nirvana.8245:

Atherakhia.4086:

D/P is only powerful because initiative regen allows it to maintain perma stealth and lose no DPS from hidden killer+backstab+heartseeker.

The initiative regen needs to be balanced across the board. Maybe have a single trait to increase the cap and that’s it. It all regens at the same rate regardless of build. That way if you use a more utility oriented weapon set like D/P over D/D you would actually show a real DPS loss for doing it.

Once initiative regen is fixed then we can worry about compensating the class for it as only people who haven’t played the class would think nerfing stealth won’t have enormous ramifications on the class as a whole.

Kinda true. But you should still be getting a reveal status when you attack from stealth with a heartseeker – combo field is not doing and thus broken. But totally, this permastealth build is kitten. If your able to permastealth you should be paying for it in loss of DPS.

I’m sorry but you are wrong. Smoke field combo is not broken. If you are in stealth and hit someone you get revealed. If you hs thru smokefield while visible the system processes damage then applies combo bonus. If it did not work this way it would be broken and worthless

I can so I’m right.

OK. So your claiming you can stealth then attack and damage someone and not gain revealed? Video plz or false.

Hang on a sec, Ill back this up. You just told me the ability to permastealth is completely useless. Care to explain?

are you mixing up threads or something? Put the pipe down and read again. I said If you are in stealth and damage someone with heartseeker you get revealed. You said this was not true. I asked for proof

I’m referring to this:

“If it did not work this way it would be broken and worthless”. Id like to know why you think a mechanic that can provide permanent stealth would be broken and worthless.

what would be the point of a smoke combo field If when you use it. All you get is revealed. Personally I think the stealth should only be granted in combat. No more permastealth. This combat and stealth system seems intended for dynamic in and out stealth.

Tulisin.6945:

Firstly, I didn’t say to throw down AE and there’s a good reason why: AE is great for movement control, but it is an abysmal way to pressure a stealthed target. Anyone who is suggesting “use AE” as a way to kill stealthed targets is perpetuating a very ineffective tactic. If your response to losing your targets is to throw circles all over the ground then you need to stop, and you need to tell your misinformed friend to stop too.

Let me clarify on this, since I’ll admit the way I put it in my post was unintentionally misleading…
/YOU/ didn’t say ‘Throw down AoEs’. But dang if that isn’t what I hear a lot on these forums on how to counter a cheap stealth abusing Thief…

Tulisin.6945:

Secondly, reality check: Procs trigger and your combat log records hit like any other hit in the game. The constant arguments “I can’t tell if I’m hitting” and “You can’t use ranged attacks against stealthed targets” go to show that a large portion of people having issues with stealth do not understand how to play GW2.

Right… So, aside from the second swing of your weapon in the auto-attack (if there is one, depending on the weapon and class) or looking at your combat log and hoping to catch a glimpse of some damage against an opponent that very likely isn’t there, how are people supposed to know they just hit someone that’s Stealthed? And ranged attacks? Again, how to you target something that can not be targeted, and has the highest mobility in the game?
Again, nothing that anyone does can remove an enemy from Stealth once they have gone into it. Once there, the Thief is basically 1 or 2 Infiltrator’s Arrow shots away from running off and ‘Derp! Fight reset! Hur hur!’

Tulisin.6945:

As for where to attack, that onus is entirely on your skill as a player. Good players anticipate where the thief will be and strike there, good thieves will anticipate that their opponents will try to do that and will move deceptively in stealth. The good news for you as someone trying to kill a thief is that most thieves are terrible and have never learned how to move properly in stealth (because, as mentioned, nobody actually pressures them, they just wander off). If you anticipate the thief is going to remain on the offense, they’re probably making a beeline for a spot behind you so they can reinitiate. If you anticipate that the thief is trying to escape, they’re probably beelining towards friendly territory directly away from you. It only takes one or two successful strikes to completely obliterate any advantage stealth has given the thief, they’ve traded combat uptime for effectively nothing.

The counter to stealth is dynamic-behavioral, yet people continue to request a mechanical counter to a skill that is not mechanically-based.

Sorry, I can’t agree to this entirely. Not saying you are wrong per say. But the level of supposed ‘skill’ required here is nothing more then luck, unless you happen to be psychic and have some way of knowing where that invisible player will be.
And it only takes a barely moderate button-presser of a Thief to be able to out do someone on another class, no matter how skilled they are.
Sorry, but the risk/reward for Thieves is stupidly skewed in their favor so long as that stupid Stealth mechanic stays as it is.

Of course, all of this Thief hate could probably be mitigated to some degree if nearly every friggen Thief I came across didn’t act like a bratty, Tourette Syndrome addled 12 year old.
Maybe…
But that is a different subject…

Shemsu.8721:

nirvana.8245:

Shemsu.8721:

nirvana.8245:

Shemsu.8721:

nirvana.8245:

Shemsu.8721:

nirvana.8245:

Atherakhia.4086:

D/P is only powerful because initiative regen allows it to maintain perma stealth and lose no DPS from hidden killer+backstab+heartseeker.

The initiative regen needs to be balanced across the board. Maybe have a single trait to increase the cap and that’s it. It all regens at the same rate regardless of build. That way if you use a more utility oriented weapon set like D/P over D/D you would actually show a real DPS loss for doing it.

Once initiative regen is fixed then we can worry about compensating the class for it as only people who haven’t played the class would think nerfing stealth won’t have enormous ramifications on the class as a whole.

Kinda true. But you should still be getting a reveal status when you attack from stealth with a heartseeker – combo field is not doing and thus broken. But totally, this permastealth build is kitten. If your able to permastealth you should be paying for it in loss of DPS.

I’m sorry but you are wrong. Smoke field combo is not broken. If you are in stealth and hit someone you get revealed. If you hs thru smokefield while visible the system processes damage then applies combo bonus. If it did not work this way it would be broken and worthless

I can so I’m right.

OK. So your claiming you can stealth then attack and damage someone and not gain revealed? Video plz or false.

Hang on a sec, Ill back this up. You just told me the ability to permastealth is completely useless. Care to explain?

are you mixing up threads or something? Put the pipe down and read again. I said If you are in stealth and damage someone with heartseeker you get revealed. You said this was not true. I asked for proof

I’m referring to this:

“If it did not work this way it would be broken and worthless”. Id like to know why you think a mechanic that can provide permanent stealth would be broken and worthless.

what would be the point of a smoke combo field If when you use it. All you get is revealed. Personally I think the stealth should only be granted in combat. No more permastealth. This combat and stealth system seems intended for dynamic in and out stealth.

But, when you use the combo field you do not get revealed unless you attack.

I dont for one moment believe thieves are overpowered, and even if they are. SO WHAT! anet already said they weren’t going to balance in the same way WoW was. Guild wars 2 is the best balanced game i have ever seen.

I have 7 80’s, everything except and engineer. My guardian, and necro cank ill thieves easy. and all other classes have a niche. Thieves can be beaten if you change you’re playstyle. adapt and you will win. Complain to change others so you can win…. and finish the sentence yourself.

Ultravalefor.5038:

Just ignore them—don’t feed and it’ll go away and look for responses elsewhere. Roaming WvW thieves are looking to feed on your rage. Thief is the Troll class, anet got completely carried away making them and people have taken that to the next level, as the players always take things further than the devs can envision.

Mesmers are pretty slow, at least from what I’ve seen/heard, so maybe you should roll a class more suited to escaping from others, like a… oh yeah, have you tried a Thief?

problem is if the roaming thief is tagging your wp, or CnD your occupied siege, or CnD your tower wall when there is mesmer body around, you can’t ignore him. And it takes ridicules amount of effort to kill it if you are successful. Most cases the thief can easily get away.
Funny thing is I used to be on the other side of the equation, I ran a roaming thief and mess around a sizable zerg, or anti-capping a camp in front of 50 zergs ( before the stealth cap patch). CnD thief is actually quite fine as long as there is no CnD on siege or on wall.