Guild Wars 2

Aneu.1748:

DevonCarver.5370:

Equinox.4195:

So, in regards to GvG and openfield, I don’t see a lot of “rampant speculation” going on. If nothing else, you chose your words poorly. The complaints about this new system potentially killing the GvG scene is entirely grounded.

This forum and this topic in particular are about WvW. WvW is about sieging and controlling objectives and about open field combat. All our changes are with that totality in mind and will continue to be.

I am exceptionally disappointed to see how narrow-minded and ignorant a developer can become. Rather than supporting an emergent game-play style you respond to this topic with what must be one of the worst possible responses I have seen from you yet.

Let me correct you on your glaringly obvious mistake and possibly educate you in the way you require. World vs World is what the players want it to be, not what it may have been designed for, not what you believe it to be, not what you scream from the top of your lungs what you wish it to be… it is what PLAYERS want it to be. If players didn’t want there to be GvG then guess what? There wouldn’t be GvG but there is a large scene for it now and to what must be your utter disbelief – huge swathes of servers actually have pride in the guilds that represent them in both WvW and GvG.

If you understood the above and actually realised that we, the players who focus on World vs World and want to actually fight other players (not bunker inside keeps), are not happy at all with the way we have been dealt with for quite some time then you may actually begin to build bridges, however with the above statement it is quite obvious that you are oblivious to much of what is occurring in the world of World vs World at the moment (Oh I’m sure you can read your metrics, well done).

You may also wish to understand that with the lack of any direct competition with other games at the moment GW2 does hold dominance in this area but that is not through great support for the WvW community, it is because as I said, there is a dire lack of competition and I can assure you that once said competition comes out you may wish to hold onto your seat because I can assure you that your community will shrink and quite drastically.

I have kept off the forum for quite some time, ever since your complete disaster of implementing Arrowcart changes and so on but I simply couldn’t help myself in responding to this reply. Hopefully you will see the light – I wont hold my breath however.

Yours faithfully,
Aneu

TBH I think even if we would get the changes we ask for, a lot of people would leave as soon as competition is out. Just because their friends who arent interested in WvW are moving, they want a different kind of lore/new world to explore or just always play the newest game.

Slomo.1029:

TBH I think even if we would get the changes we ask for, a lot of people would leave as soon as competition is out. Just because their friends who arent interested in WvW are moving, they want a different kind of lore/new world to explore or just always play the newest game.

The loyalty that can be built up by community managers and developers in a game is a hugely powerful tool and has kept people playing games for a very long time indeed. If Anet or more specifically Devon was able to understand this and garner the support required then when the next fluffy game comes out that supports (I use this word lightly, it simply means “includes”) world PvP like GW2 then you can bet that a lot of people would put this kind of invaluable developmental support at the forefront of their minds and possibly play something else for a little while but always return to GW2, currently this kind of loyalty isnt a prolific feeling amongst many of the WvW community and as such the only thing to keep people coming back is the fact the game is B2P – not because of loyalty to the company, the people or the game.

Aneu.1748:

The loyalty that can be built up by community managers and developers in a game is a hugely powerful tool and has kept people playing games for a very long time indeed. If Anet or more specifically Devon was able to understand this and garner the support required then when the next fluffy game comes out that supports (I use this word lightly, it simply means “includes”) world PvP like GW2 then you can bet that a lot of people would put this kind of invaluable developmental support at the forefront of their minds and possibly play something else for a little while but always return to GW2, currently this kind of loyalty isnt a prolific feeling amongst many of the WvW community and as such the only thing to keep people coming back is the fact the game is B2P – not because of loyalty to the company, the people or the game.

I totally agree on that. Binding people to your game was surely easier a few years ago because the F2P model wasnt a big thing. But its still possible.
However ArenaNET realised this in their PvE department and reacted to feedback slowly, but accordingly and look at the progress they made there. The Living Story content is well made, regular and free. Interesting story behind every event keeps people interested in what happens next. The fact they distribute weapon skins on RNG is bad, but I’ll give them that because they need money.

Now compare it to the PvP/WvW progress and you’ll realise that to build a trustful relationship to this community is plainly impossible within the time left until the next big MMO. At least at the rate of progress we had in the past.
They would need to put 5 times the manpower into WvW and they would need to do it right now. Otherwise Wildstar (or whatever game is next) will come out before the developers learn the ropes of this gamemode(s).
Lets be real here, one year of getting declined…people want a whole lot to happen by now. Not only something random like colour changes, siege weapon masterys or traps. ANet needs to catch up on the needs from the past year and put a cherry on top now. Otherwise I dont see a bright future for WvW.

And its not really Devons fault. Ofc he could give a lot more insight in the stuff they are doing/thinking. But 1st he probably isn’t allowed to and 2nd it would reveal how much(or little) power they have within the company. His latest respones about WvW being only one small piece of the game, made clear that he is fed up with the situation he is in. He cant promise anything big because his team cant realise it.
I can imagine that the WvW team is thinking of amazing things and has good ideas how to fix stuff and make the game better as a whole. Sadly they dont have the manpower to realise any of this. And probalby dont get the manpower scheduled by managers because Living Story weapon skins are the $$$ these days.

Slomo.1029:

Aneu.1748:

The loyalty that can be built up by community managers and developers in a game is a hugely powerful tool and has kept people playing games for a very long time indeed. If Anet or more specifically Devon was able to understand this and garner the support required then when the next fluffy game comes out that supports (I use this word lightly, it simply means “includes”) world PvP like GW2 then you can bet that a lot of people would put this kind of invaluable developmental support at the forefront of their minds and possibly play something else for a little while but always return to GW2, currently this kind of loyalty isnt a prolific feeling amongst many of the WvW community and as such the only thing to keep people coming back is the fact the game is B2P – not because of loyalty to the company, the people or the game.

I totally agree on that. Binding people to your game was surely easier a few years ago because the F2P model wasnt a big thing. But its still possible.
However ArenaNET realised this in their PvE department and reacted to feedback slowly, but accordingly and look at the progress they made there. The Living Story content is well made, regular and free. Interesting story behind every event keeps people interested in what happens next. The fact they distribute weapon skins on RNG is bad, but I’ll give them that because they need money.

Now compare it to the PvP/WvW progress and you’ll realise that to build a trustful relationship to this community is plainly impossible within the time left until the next big MMO. At least at the rate of progress we had in the past.
They would need to put 5 times the manpower into WvW and they would need to do it right now. Otherwise Wildstar (or whatever game is next) will come out before the developers learn the ropes of this gamemode(s).
Lets be real here, one year of getting declined…people want a whole lot to happen by now. Not only something random like colour changes, siege weapon masterys or traps. ANet needs to catch up on the needs from the past year and put a cherry on top now. Otherwise I dont see a bright future for WvW.

And its not really Devons fault. Ofc he could give a lot more insight in the stuff they are doing/thinking. But 1st he probably isn’t allowed to and 2nd it would reveal how much(or little) power they have within the company. His latest respones about WvW being only one small piece of the game, made clear that he is fed up with the situation he is in. He cant promise anything big because his team cant realise it.
I can imagine that the WvW team is thinking of amazing things and has good ideas how to fix stuff and make the game better as a whole. Sadly they dont have the manpower to realise any of this. And probalby dont get the manpower scheduled by managers because Living Story weapon skins are the $$$ these days.

Isnt this a little strange? WvW is part of the games as a Living Story. In my opinion it looks like, they didint expect, or dont want to expect that players/guilds etc spending 90% of thier time in game in WvW, so its pretty natural they want to change. As WvW is part of the game, and to be honest at the beginning they were “proud” of WvW, now they changing thier minds, removing manpower from WvW to Living Story, and saying to WvW player, that we should go play PvE, cuz on WvW nothing will change. Honestly i dont know what to think about this. Im losing my “power” to play, not due that i play alot, but i know that any major changes to WvW will never come out, or will when the population of WvW players, will be less than 20/30%. The thing that im playing this game (90% WvW) is just my guild/friends, insted of that i would quite long time ago.

Any major changes to WvW will not come out, Devon is saying we should play PvE. Dunno how you guys, but im disappointed, and the thing im here right now is that theres no other games right now. I just hope, that some day AN will change thier minds, and will start working on WvW, but who know if we will still be here.

PvE in GW2 is an absolutley pointless venture because other games can and will do it better. FFXIV:ARR – Wildstar – Rift – WoW – The Secret World – ESO all have or will have superior PvE to GW2. GW2’s venture into the PVE realm should never have been its main focus, its a game that should be focused around combat and promoting player combat – it is such a sad state of affairs when a game like this loses its way.

Aneu.1748:

PvE in GW2 is an absolutley pointless venture because other games can and will do it better. FFXIV:ARR – Wildstar – Rift – WoW – The Secret World – ESO all have or will have superior PvE to GW2. GW2’s venture into the PVE realm should never have been its main focus, its a game that should be focused around combat and promoting player combat – it is such a sad state of affairs when a game like this loses its way.

Agree. They should follow the way was GW1 with PvP, insted of focusing in PvE, which in 2014 PvE in GW2 will surly die, cuz of games you mentioned.

Aneu.1748:

DevonCarver.5370:

Equinox.4195:

So, in regards to GvG and openfield, I don’t see a lot of “rampant speculation” going on. If nothing else, you chose your words poorly. The complaints about this new system potentially killing the GvG scene is entirely grounded.

This forum and this topic in particular are about WvW. WvW is about sieging and controlling objectives and about open field combat. All our changes are with that totality in mind and will continue to be.

I am exceptionally disappointed to see how narrow-minded and ignorant a developer can become. Rather than supporting an emergent game-play style you respond to this topic with what must be one of the worst possible responses I have seen from you yet.

Let me correct you on your glaringly obvious mistake and possibly educate you in the way you require. World vs World is what the players want it to be, not what it may have been designed for, not what you believe it to be, not what you scream from the top of your lungs what you wish it to be… it is what PLAYERS want it to be. If players didn’t want there to be GvG then guess what? There wouldn’t be GvG but there is a large scene for it now and to what must be your utter disbelief – huge swathes of servers actually have pride in the guilds that represent them in both WvW and GvG.

If you understood the above and actually realised that we, the players who focus on World vs World and want to actually fight other players (not bunker inside keeps), are not happy at all with the way we have been dealt with for quite some time then you may actually begin to build bridges, however with the above statement it is quite obvious that you are oblivious to much of what is occurring in the world of World vs World at the moment (Oh I’m sure you can read your metrics, well done).

You may also wish to understand that with the lack of any direct competition with other games at the moment GW2 does hold dominance in this area but that is not through great support for the WvW community, it is because as I said, there is a dire lack of competition and I can assure you that once said competition comes out you may wish to hold onto your seat because I can assure you that your community will shrink and quite drastically.

I have kept off the forum for quite some time, ever since your complete disaster of implementing Arrowcart changes and so on but I simply couldn’t help myself in responding to this reply. Hopefully you will see the light – I wont hold my breath however.

Yours faithfully,
Aneu

Spot on, couldn’t have put it better myself.

you guys understand how a buff-location zerg busts right?

a zerg can’t defend the orb AND attack objectives at the same time. If you want the orb buff people have to split off and defend it.

I am exceptionally disappointed to see how narrow-minded and ignorant a developer can become. Rather than supporting an emergent game-play style you respond to this topic with what must be one of the worst possible responses I have seen from you yet.

I’ve never GvG, I have no interest in GvG. Tabling WvW improvements in favor of GvG are coming at my expense. The WvW developer focuses on improving WvW: cue shock, disgust, horror.

reasons why you couldnt just use the jumping puzzle if there were orb buffs in borderlands: …crickets…

as for people who roam for fights whose experience would be ruined by orbs: lmfao. Has anyone ever seen any roamer give up the chance to gank someone underleveled, or refuse to attack someone without food buffs? Nnnnnope. Nor would I expect them to. WvW is NOT about fair fights.

in decades of visiting game forums I have never seen this much obstinate, entitled, thick-headed prickery as I’ve seen in the past couple weeks in this forum. Noone actually wants to talk to Devon, they want to lecture him until he bows down at their feet humbled and kisses their ring.

Odinzu.9645:

Equinox.4195:

DevonCarver.5370:

Equinox.4195:

So, in regards to GvG and openfield, I don’t see a lot of “rampant speculation” going on. If nothing else, you chose your words poorly. The complaints about this new system potentially killing the GvG scene is entirely grounded.

This forum and this topic in particular are about WvW. WvW is about sieging and controlling objectives and about open field combat. All our changes are with that totality in mind and will continue to be.

Then I will encourage you to reconsider your focus in regards to WvW because the only thing that has kept it alive for a majority of guilds, despite anything and everything you do to ruin the mechanics, is the attempts by guilds and their members to organize open-field combat and GvG.

If you’re honestly trying to look at what you could do to keep players hooked and interested in your game, you need to start realizing the potential that Guild vs. Guild has, and stop worrying about your silly siege mastery additions and wxp.

WvW isn’t about the karma train and PvE experience anymore. A lot of us are PvPers. We want to fight against heavy odds, and test our mettle in a fair, organized fight. We don’t all look at the map and think of how we can utilize siege for effective objective capture, we’re looking at how we can use the terrain to our advantage in a combat situation.

The level of neglect for the guild system has been vast since launch, and now you’ve suggested to me that you want to continue to encourage karma training, and not open-field combat and GvG, where you can actually shine as a guild and become recognized.

There are other games releasing, and you still have the opportunity to drive your playerbase away.

Don’t read this comment as me trying to complain at you. Criticize? Maybe, but mostly I’m trying to warn you. Maybe Open-field combat and GvG wasn’t your intention for what WvW would become, but that’s how the scene has evolved, and I’m being honest when I tell you that you should try to evolve with it, or provide us with another medium; an actual GvG arena.

However, I highly doubt we will see any kind of GvG format within the next two years, since you can’t even bother to fix how the Guild Message of the Day is edited, which is why I’m encouraging you to consider how your WvW changes will impact this level of play.

If you really don’t believe me about WvW guilds and GvG/Open-field combat. I’m on the Tarnished Coast server, the Unofficial RP server and a heavy PvE server. Our WvW guilds are very fight-centric. Even all of our PUG Lords love open-field. Guilds such as EP, TSL, RE, ZN, CERN, and KH all GvG, and all of these guilds and others are more interested in finding fights on maps than actually taking objectives.

…and its not like WvW guilds who GvG in a GvG system will be in GvG matches 24/7. They need places to practice blob busting- and WvW can satisfy that even with the GvG system implemented.

If you want to create an E-Sport- this is how it starts. With crews from all over the world, from the few pioneers to the now 80+ active crews.

100% agree.

Shoe.5821:

you guys understand how a buff-location zerg busts right?

a zerg can’t defend the orb AND attack objectives at the same time. If you want the orb buff people have to split off and defend it.

ROFL….that’s like saying the zerg has to go defend a keep…what does the zerg do? break up and defend the keep AND keep attacking? Or does the zerg group run over wipe the people attacking and then proceed back to the location they were attacking?

It will not bust zergs….in fact no locations will bust zergs…until the maps are large enough that one big zerg cannot in fact flip enough points to be effective….

example: 80 man zerg attacking your hills, so you go to bay.. as soon as your smaller group of 10-20 get to bay and are working on outer, a scout or sword pop on bay…as it stands that zerg of 80 has the ability to stack swiftness and run across the map and will most definitely stop you…then once they are done…they return to hills or whatever they want to attack next…

Until attacking something like hills means that something like bay is TOO FAR AWAY to defend and/or there are many more objectives on the map (also would have to be on a larger map) to be taken that cannot be efficiently taken with one large group…you will continue to see this behavior. Right now, it is simply the most efficient way to steam roll things on a map…even the servers that “used to” not zergball…do now….because people have slowly realized that the only way to really stop it or counter it….is it to get a zergball of equal size rolling lol…unless ur GvG’ing obviously..

Can’t agree more with the posters above me.
Yesterday I had a chat with a friend about the issues concerning comunicating and listening to the right ideas by game developers in some games and the impact it has.
Many games and game developpers have failed or got a really bad reputation because of a lack of the above. Once it starts it will onyl snowball into a more depressing state where the forums are full of negativity.
It would be ashame to see this game fall deeper.

To Shoe, the blob will just run over the buff and leave a few people behind people will have to defend it. Which will then be defended untill another zerg will pass, if it’s a system that works like that.
The zerg will most likely be needed aswell if the buff is a stat buff like the old one due to the defending party being a lot stronger.
In that case it will only promote zerging and skilless play on top of destroying roaming and group play. (not to mention gvgs being screwed over)

I personally hope it will only be affecting the point tick, siege damage or wxp but not player stats.

example: 80 man zerg attacking your hills, so you go to bay.. as soon as your smaller group of 10-20 get to bay and are working on outer, a scout or sword pop on bay…as it stands that zerg of 80 has the ability to stack swiftness and run across the map and will most definitely stop you…then once they are done…they return to hills or whatever they want to attack next…

There’s no feasible game mechanic that will let 10 or 20 beat 80 in the long run.

Currently when attacking the only thing commanders need to worry about is the potential to lose other structures (aside from supplies and enemies of course.) That’s kind of a big deal, but not really; you can always take them back later. An orb-altar would be different because it actively impacts the fight thats going on right now. A couple of roamers taking the orb costs the enemy almost nothing but the gain will be disproportionate.

I think its easy to see small orb skirmishes developing into big fights as everyone keeps escalating to try to get the bonus. It might even encourage field fights that people keep saying they want.

To Shoe, the blob will just run over the buff and leave a few people behind people will have to defend it. Which will then be defended untill another zerg will pass, if it’s a system that works like that.

Capturing the orb doesnt actually accomplish anything though. Your zerg caps the orb and then by the time it can start accomplishing anything the orb gets capped back. And if you arn’t holding the orb you’re at a disadvantage and will lose an even fight. If zergs are abandoning sieges all the time to fight over the orb then they won’t accomplish much. I find it much more likely that commanders will stay focused on capping structures while sparing as much as they can to cap the orb.

You do comprehend how easy it is to run from point to point on a map right? You understand that it doesnt exactly take very long meaning that zergballs are far superior to that of smaller forces, if not then this discussion with you is pointless as you don’t seem to be taking examples out of how WvW actually works but how you think it works in your head and discussing with people who live in their head is quite simply pointless.

Also with the information about the krait and so on we can pretty much surmise that the krait/quaggans are going and the orb mechanic will be put in place there. I am guessing that it will be objective points right smack dab in the middle of the 3 spawn areas resulting in blob on blob on blob – So say hi to an all new lag-fest ladies and gentlemen…

It’s just another kick in the nuts mate.

It was only a matter of time before WvW guilds tried to seek out a more level playing field than the zergfest the maps have become.
To kill a rising scene like this is just cutting the thing that is keeping me playing GW2 in half.

And for a dev to come out and say “we know exactly what this change will mean” I feel is just downright disrespectful. We are the people who keep your game alive and your community strong, telling us this is not how you want your game to be played and changing it to deal with a very specific “problem” is just crazy

Long Live Guild Wars!!!

Shoe.5821:

example: 80 man zerg attacking your hills, so you go to bay.. as soon as your smaller group of 10-20 get to bay and are working on outer, a scout or sword pop on bay…as it stands that zerg of 80 has the ability to stack swiftness and run across the map and will most definitely stop you…then once they are done…they return to hills or whatever they want to attack next…

There’s no feasible game mechanic that will let 10 or 20 beat 80 in the long run.

Currently when attacking the only thing commanders need to worry about is the potential to lose other structures (aside from supplies and enemies of course.) That’s kind of a big deal, but not really; you can always take them back later. An orb-altar would be different because it actively impacts the fight thats going on right now. A couple of roamers taking the orb costs the enemy almost nothing but the gain will be disproportionate.

I think its easy to see small orb skirmishes developing into big fights as everyone keeps escalating to try to get the bonus. It might even encourage field fights that people keep saying they want.

To Shoe, the blob will just run over the buff and leave a few people behind people will have to defend it. Which will then be defended untill another zerg will pass, if it’s a system that works like that.

Capturing the orb doesnt actually accomplish anything though. Your zerg caps the orb and then by the time it can start accomplishing anything the orb gets capped back. And if you arn’t holding the orb you’re at a disadvantage and will lose an even fight. If zergs are abandoning sieges all the time to fight over the orb then they won’t accomplish much. I find it much more likely that commanders will stay focused on capping structures while sparing as much as they can to cap the orb.

You are correct. There should be no way for a group of 10-20 to defeat a group of 80…i’m not saying that. What i’m saying is that with a larger map… when a group of 80 commits to attacking something like hills…if you tactically as a smaller group notice they are fighting at hills and decide to go across the other side of the map to take advantage of their positioning…they SHOULD NOT be able to just speed across the map and stop you if you got the jump on them…right now… we can…I can practically take a pug zerg across the map and save a paper keep (they will probably be on inner when I get there, maybe lords if they are fast), but I will stop them. Forget it if its T2 or higher….since the walls and doors take even longer to blast through..

An orb altar will be no different then the center island quaggan minus the water, the only difference is you get a buff for taking it….if i’m running a huge zerg around the map..on my way to garri…hills….bay….a tower…if I lost the buff im just going to run through the middle with the zerg cap it real quick and move on…maybe leave a scout behind to call inc…if a big group or small group goes to cap it…im run back through it lol…that’s how it’s really going to work…

The great Orb Armageddon of 2013

Anyone? Nothing to say anymore? Well then…