Guild Wars 2

Guild upgrades are very effective at what they do. And their usage is dependent on wealth.
Same with guild siege…..its dependent on wealth. They are wayyyy more effective compared to the others given how supply currently works.

The only guild oriented thing about this stuff is you need a guild with a large enough gold sink (one that has bought the stuff that allows you to create the upgrades). SOME PEOPLE ARE GONNNA MISUNDERSTAND THAT SO LET ME SPELL IT OUT: Guilds have to put up a large amount in order to craft an upgrade of a single type. I’m saying this “gold sink”, the crap leading up to the actual crafting, is the only guild related component. Normal players can afford to pay for crafting the actual guild upgrades, even the crafting is expensive though.

Everything is gold gold gold. Aura’s are gold, everything is golddddddddd.

You can afford better food. You can afford infinite time on those food buffs so they never wear offff. You can afford the best siege that uses less supply so you can place them yourself if you get 40 supply. You can toss upgrades on any claimed objective and reap major benefits to your capping/defending/roaming. I mean do you have any idea how effective watchtowers are? insanely effective. Fast yaks? insanely effective. precense of the keep? insanely effective. Emergency waypoints…….

How do you get this stuff?
By winning? by being good in the gamemode? by farming the gamemode? by winning fights? by ppting insane amounts? by taking core objectives in brilliant maneuvers?

Nope, you get them through money. GOLD.

How do you make money? DEFINITELY NOT THROUGH WVSW!!!
The goal of pve is to make money.
The goal of pvp is to kill people.
The goal of wvsw is to cap objectives.

Being better at pve is dependent upon having more money……THAT MAKES SENSE!
Being better at pvp is dependent upon killing more people….THAT MAKES SENSE!
Being better at wvsw is dependent upon having more money……WHAT?

Simple rule of thumb for those who think they disagree: If you had infinite gold, can you tell me without a doubt that your ability to play the mode would not change no matter what you did with that money (outside of bribing other players)?

More elaborate scenario for those that deny: Imagine if the entire time you aren;’t fighting. But rather just watching the maps. And placing upgrades on objectives as soon as able. If gold is no problem and you made infinite guild upgrades…..and everyone on ur team claimed objectives when they were taken……

What kind of power would you have if you did that? ALOT of power. You can kill enemy supply/movement with sabotage depot’s. You can put watchtowers, waypoints, all the other kitten that exists already, you can put all that up and reap the benefits. Just imagine a bl who’s camps automaticallly got fast yaks as soon as the upgrade slots were unlocked. imagine how insane that would be and how fast their stuff would upgrade with the invulerable yaks and speedy yaks. and imagine how easily they could setup beachheads in enemy borderlands with alll 3 yak abilities. Not to mention the cars…….those cars are seriously powerful! having as many of those as posssible is a huge plus for havok.

not to mention combat booster…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

The current guild upgrades are balanced and not that much of a gamechanger. Only presence of the keep and watchtower could use some tuning down. If you put that car/dolly upgrades in a camp, you better be prepared to have 5 people defending that camp/dolly.
Speedy dollies reduce upgrade time by 33%, not big of a deal since 2engis could replace that permasuperspeed.
Are you that surprised though?
I have 0 legendaries because i buy my own siege and superexpensive foods. Its my choice to run with just ascended.
You should stop thinking that game world is ideal world where everythings nicely set so that newbies can do stuff without doing anything. Its all about progress. You bow your head to some guild, pull right strings and boom, you got the advantage over others. Its reminds me of real world, which might be a good thing to prepare some people.
I have seen people run with rare gear because they were too dumb to know that exotics are basically free with badges, karma or reward tracks. And ascended was the necessary progress to keep the game interesting at some point. Now its guild upgrades and such. Soon every smart guy has access to them. Then they add new elite specs (5 already confirmed) and possibly 3rd borderland something to think about, eh?

You complain about pay to win now? When HoT has long matured, every major guild is 50+ and we now get 2g for free every single day?

Hahaha… If you had this argument a week after HoT release, I would probably have agreed with you. Today? Not so much.

Pay to win only get you so far. Yesterday we had to cap our bay from a million germans because it was 20/40 dollys to T2 when our garrison was still 9/20 toward T1. Of course they had the money to do speedy dollies. They just pumped them into bay. But guess what? We still took it. We had to sacrifice garrison to do so, but we took it after 3 or so battles we lost in there. We crushed their zerg and apparently we crushed their will as well because they left the border.

WvW is still WvW. Playing is what win.

I don’t understand how somenthing is “pay to win” when you are using the game currency. I would agree if these things were gem sales, but gold? Nah. I have all these things you calling “pay to win” and all I did was play the game. My guild hall was leveled up to level 45 with all WvW upgrades by 3 people. And none of us actually stopped to farm gold or flip TP.
Sometimes people go too far on what they are complaining about.

People still say they don’t want rewards in wvw increased /shrug
Go farm auric basin meta.

I do think the scribing costs are still rather high but the difference here and pve is that wvw is generally speaking, a collective effort when it comes to holding or taking objectives, whereas the goals in pve are generally people looking out for themselves. Individuals don’t win wars. Obviously the costs would be excessive to a few individuals but serverwide, it’s really not that big of a deal and also gives ways for pve members of a guild or whatever to contribute to the war effort.

Not everyone has to spend all that resources to get it all, because that would be redundant. On my server, I can claim on behalf of 2 guilds with full auras but it’s almost never necessary because there’s a number of other guilds [including those pve guilds people talk trash about] claiming them with auras already. Siege? Just ask. Plenty of dedicated guilds have tons of siege ready to be used. They might not be fancy guild stuff but most of the time it’s not really a big deal. Food? I usually carry on a dozen pots of the lemongrass— if you want mussels, do it yourself. It’s not really that big of a deal.

In the past few months, I have done 2 AB metas (didn’t stay for multiloot— I have better things to do with my life) and the occasional LS specific dailies for the new zones. I could easily get a ton more gold, but I really don’t see the need because honestly most of the stuff I see is just splurging.

Overall, I feel this so called pay to win, is really self inflicted; and this is fairly typical for these forums as a whole—trying to win a race where nobody was actually racing to begin with.

Sorry OP, but you missed the significance of this topic by a year. This was complained about, and nothing happened. ANet does not care about you or your small guild or your enjoyment in WvW if you’re not in a blob. There’s a reason an objective majority of small-scale guilds/players in WvW left the game entirely with HoT’s release. Every single aspect of small-scale was systematically removed from WvW with the expansion.

I agree with the OP. I think the have dependency on gold as a resource in WvW hinders people from actually improving at the game mode and forces people to either farm gold or pay real money elsewhere. I assume that WvW is Arenanet’s largest source of revenue though, so I can’t see them making a ton of changes.

only WvW upgrade that pay to win is dragon banner.

Cerby.1069:

Being better at wvw is dependent upon having more money……WHAT?

This made me imagine having Guild reward tracks, where the whole guild worked together on it, the tracks could reward WvW upgrades.

I’d love to see badges of honor become the most efficient way to gain wvw benefits, whether through some interaction with scribing or something new.

Not getting rid of what’s in place now, just creating a way fir players and guilds who spend the most time in Wvw to gain the greatest wvw benefits (without having to subsidize wvw with non-wvw play).

Taobella.6597:

only WvW upgrade that pay to win is dragon banner.

I agree, along with air strike it was just dumb, which is why I shed no tears when they got bashed with the nerf bad. It hasn’t been that big of a deal since in my experience though.

Choppy.4183:

I’d love to see badges of honor become the most efficient way to gain wvw benefits, whether through some interaction with scribing or something new.

Not getting rid of what’s in place now, just creating a way fir players and guilds who spend the most time in Wvw to gain the greatest wvw benefits (without having to subsidize wvw with non-wvw play).

I think Proof of Heroics were pretty good. I almost have 2000 of them so I can freely choose any of the runes/sigils without going to HoT maps anymore as well as being able to get any kind of siege I want immediately with the provisoner. Giving something to do with badges would be nice too, and I hope some combination of badges or heroics would be good for getting living story things. Personally, I would love to see some kind of WvW ascended jewelery that lets you pick stats.

I agree with the OP. Everything has been stacked in favor of the super guilds. From paying for guild transfers, guild hall upgrades, everything. The small wvw guild has been decimated.

Have less sympathy for people on this subject. I watched a guild get built up over time to being fully upgraded by a group of five people. Five. Not a super guild. Did it take work? Yes. Why should it be easy and cheap? It shouldn’t, as it provides a lot of benefits, as pointed out. It’s not out of the realm of possibilities for small guilds. It’s not easy. So what if you have to put in work and effort. It’s not impossible. Being something that you have to work towards does not make it pay to win….it’s called working towards your goal.

Not to mention I’ve seen plenty of large guilds accept people from smaller guilds as associate members in order to use guild buffs without requiring them to rep or be held to the same rules as full members. If you don’t want to have to do the work on your own.

Everything has a cost. It’s called balance. \o/

radiantbliss.6875:

Have less sympathy for people on this subject. I watched a guild get built up over time to being fully upgraded by a group of five people. Five. Not a super guild. Did it take work? Yes. Why should it be easy and cheap? It shouldn’t, as it provides a lot of benefits, as pointed out. It’s not out of the realm of possibilities for small guilds. It’s not easy. So what if you have to put in work and effort. It’s not impossible. Being something that you have to work towards does not make it pay to win….it’s called working towards your goal.

Not to mention I’ve seen plenty of large guilds accept people from smaller guilds as associate members in order to use guild buffs without requiring them to rep or be held to the same rules as full members. If you don’t want to have to do the work on your own.

Everything has a cost. It’s called balance. \o/

Ur on blackgate in a guild with +154 members….

Vavume.8065:

Cerby.1069:

Being better at wvw is dependent upon having more money……WHAT?

This made me imagine having Guild reward tracks, where the whole guild worked together on it, the tracks could reward WvW upgrades.

Now that is a good idea worth exploring. I didn’t touch on it in the OP but obviously there’s the fact you can be totally new to wvsw, have 0 gametime, and have all these upgrades and buffs are your disposal right from the start…..cause its all gold based. Being able to offset those gold costs with this guild reward track or guild actions in general done in wvsw….well that seems like a no brainer. Its definitely something that should have been considered and still can be considered moving forward.

radiantbliss.6875:

Have less sympathy for people on this subject. I watched a guild get built up over time to being fully upgraded by a group of five people. Five. Not a super guild. Did it take work? Yes. Why should it be easy and cheap? It shouldn’t, as it provides a lot of benefits, as pointed out. It’s not out of the realm of possibilities for small guilds. It’s not easy. So what if you have to put in work and effort. It’s not impossible. Being something that you have to work towards does not make it pay to win….it’s called working towards your goal.

Not to mention I’ve seen plenty of large guilds accept people from smaller guilds as associate members in order to use guild buffs without requiring them to rep or be held to the same rules as full members. If you don’t want to have to do the work on your own.

Everything has a cost. It’s called balance. \o/

Mate you know that logic isn’t fair.
i.e. The old ones put in alot of work cause conditions make it so they HAVE to. The new ones come along and they no longer have to do as much work so they might choose NOT to. The old ones feel cheated for doing more work back in the day and getting the same reward, so they shame the new ones whenever the new ones seek further departures from the fact.

That’s just selfish. Its very human logic. Lets not do that to eachother. Its unkind and unjust. Focus on moving forward.

You also missed the point which is fairness in general. The current model is not sustainable. You HEMORRHAGE money and have to balance playing the mode with FUNDING the playing of the mode….that’s not right.
I shouldn’t have to do 1 hour of pve farm to pay for every 2 hours of wvsw. I maintain that, in general, I shouldn’t have to do any pve farm to pay for successful wvsw playtime.
Your post seems to defend the practice of making losing significant amounts of money each time u set foot in wvsw.
Is wvsw supposed to be the resort or casino that you spend all ur hard farmed gold in? I maintain no, it should not be that. And i maintain that yes, it has been that to date. And I maintain that yes, it needs to be changed.

So many guilds get caught up in having large numbers chip in ‘donations’ for everything that they fail to see that they always lose money from playing wvsw. This definitely makes it manageable and noone really cares since you have so many people, some who might hardly play any wvsw at all, giving little donations so the vets don’t have to fork up all their loot and toss in a bag of extra gold after each run. It doesn’t make it right. Wvsw shouldn’t be the kind of gold sink it is atm. Time spent playing should provide the upgrades and other things needed to play effectively. Extra can be bought with gold sure.

I mean ur post right there said that the portable provisioner was WRONG. That it was bad for the mode and shouldn’t exist. You are saying that your hard work that you already did should be recognized and stay recognized and everyone else should have to go through it. Stuff like the portable provisioner which provides sustainable food/siege/utility practices goes against ur philosophy. So next time you comment please put in ur first lines something like “the portable provisioned was a terrible addition and should be removed cause it makes all my former unfair grind work futile”…cause that is what you said with ur comment. It would save us so much time in future discussions.

when this game came out anet view on WvW was it never meant to be balanced guild stacking was meant to be unfair just saying.

look at the place of spending 12 gold to 25 gold per night. on upgrades. now every one in the guild can make those new upgrade and the old one are done automatic. yes it cost a lot to scribe but it is part of the game and any one can do it. the longuest part is scribe crafting to level 400. after you craft what is needed.

radiantbliss.6875:

Have less sympathy for people on this subject. I watched a guild get built up over time to being fully upgraded by a group of five people. Five. Not a super guild. Did it take work? Yes. Why should it be easy and cheap? It shouldn’t, as it provides a lot of benefits, as pointed out. It’s not out of the realm of possibilities for small guilds. It’s not easy. So what if you have to put in work and effort. It’s not impossible. Being something that you have to work towards does not make it pay to win….it’s called working towards your goal.

Not to mention I’ve seen plenty of large guilds accept people from smaller guilds as associate members in order to use guild buffs without requiring them to rep or be held to the same rules as full members. If you don’t want to have to do the work on your own.

Everything has a cost. It’s called balance. \o/

As someone who’s maxed a guild hall for WvW upgrades with four people, this is just ignorant.

Seriously, please go do this yourself in a year (accounting for price reductions on scribing) and tell me it’s fair.

It isn’t. And it’s because yet again bad design rules all with this company. It’s not even P2W. It’s just poor decision-making.

Cerby.1069:

Guild upgrades are very effective at what they do. And their usage is dependent on wealth.
Same with guild siege…..its dependent on wealth. They are wayyyy more effective compared to the others given how supply currently works.

The only guild oriented thing about this stuff is you need a guild with a large enough gold sink (one that has bought the stuff that allows you to create the upgrades). SOME PEOPLE ARE GONNNA MISUNDERSTAND THAT SO LET ME SPELL IT OUT: Guilds have to put up a large amount in order to craft an upgrade of a single type. I’m saying this “gold sink”, the crap leading up to the actual crafting, is the only guild related component. Normal players can afford to pay for crafting the actual guild upgrades, even the crafting is expensive though.

Everything is gold gold gold. Aura’s are gold, everything is golddddddddd.

You can afford better food. You can afford infinite time on those food buffs so they never wear offff. You can afford the best siege that uses less supply so you can place them yourself if you get 40 supply. You can toss upgrades on any claimed objective and reap major benefits to your capping/defending/roaming. I mean do you have any idea how effective watchtowers are? insanely effective. Fast yaks? insanely effective. precense of the keep? insanely effective. Emergency waypoints…….

How do you get this stuff?
By winning? by being good in the gamemode? by farming the gamemode? by winning fights? by ppting insane amounts? by taking core objectives in brilliant maneuvers?

Nope, you get them through money. GOLD.

How do you make money? DEFINITELY NOT THROUGH WVSW!!!
The goal of pve is to make money.
The goal of pvp is to kill people.
The goal of wvsw is to cap objectives.

Being better at pve is dependent upon having more money……THAT MAKES SENSE!
Being better at pvp is dependent upon killing more people….THAT MAKES SENSE!
Being better at wvsw is dependent upon having more money……WHAT?

Simple rule of thumb for those who think they disagree: If you had infinite gold, can you tell me without a doubt that your ability to play the mode would not change no matter what you did with that money (outside of bribing other players)?

More elaborate scenario for those that deny: Imagine if the entire time you aren;’t fighting. But rather just watching the maps. And placing upgrades on objectives as soon as able. If gold is no problem and you made infinite guild upgrades…..and everyone on ur team claimed objectives when they were taken……

What kind of power would you have if you did that? ALOT of power. You can kill enemy supply/movement with sabotage depot’s. You can put watchtowers, waypoints, all the other kitten that exists already, you can put all that up and reap the benefits. Just imagine a bl who’s camps automaticallly got fast yaks as soon as the upgrade slots were unlocked. imagine how insane that would be and how fast their stuff would upgrade with the invulerable yaks and speedy yaks. and imagine how easily they could setup beachheads in enemy borderlands with alll 3 yak abilities. Not to mention the cars…….those cars are seriously powerful! having as many of those as posssible is a huge plus for havok.

not to mention combat booster…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Go play BnS or maplestory or any other mmorpgs.

u will realize that u were wrong and be thankful to gw2

Go play real games and use your brain instead of comparing pigs to bacon

u will realize that u were wrong and that the system could easily be so much better than it is, and it only exists in its crummy state cause people like you praise it for being crummy.

there are countless horrid world events that have gone on because people conform to horrid systems to elect the lesser of 2 evils, and you sir are part of that problem.

Cerby.1069:

comparing pigs to bacon

They look all the same to me.

Jeknar.6184:

Cerby.1069:

comparing pigs to bacon

They look all the same to me.

Well be sure to at least give it a bath before you take a bite out of it….lulz

The OP points out that shinier things cost more gold.

However, for WvW, all that gold buys you is increased efficiency. Budget foods are nearly as good as expensive stuff; budget siege is just slower.

If anything, the original post is a good argument for joining a large guild, even if you prefer Havoc to Zerg.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

However, for WvW, all that gold buys you is increased efficiency. Budget foods are nearly as good as expensive stuff; budget siege is just slower.

Wat.

I won’t even go into the details of all the normal food options. Furious Utilities?

A normal piece of siege is 33% slower than a superior. 3 mins of ramming is cut to 2 minutes such that the last minute could be spent killing the lord just one is enough to mark the difference between getting a flip and the blob arriving to roll you. If you’re not in the omni-blob that time is absolutely precious and will repeatedly mark the difference between taking and not taking an objective.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The OP points out that shinier things cost more gold.

However, for WvW, all that gold buys you is increased efficiency. Budget foods are nearly as good as expensive stuff; budget siege is just slower.

If anything, the original post is a good argument for joining a large guild, even if you prefer Havoc to Zerg.

I mean sure, 80-60 spreads are nearly as good as 100-80 spreads. But ur forgetting the fact that those foods were all crap to begin with. All the wonderful account bound things hot brought us are not remotely close in value to what u buy with badges. I’ll list 1-2 exceptions in all fairness: asparagus vs seaweed salad (closeish in value), carrot souffle vs its lvl 75 alternative (closeish enough), then theres a condi duration food which is closish enough to the lvl 80 variant…..so 3 exceptions lets say. In terms of utilities though….no. There is no comparison between the utility items u buy with badges and the ones that are account bound. I mean i can get 110 ferocity with furious sharpening stone + 100 toughness…..vs just 100 power with lvl 80 sharpening stone….even in terms of just doing damage the furious has the sharpening beat in many cases. Compare that 100 power to 200 power you get from writs……twice as effective.

You say all it buys you is efficiency. Yes….that’s exactly the word I would use lol. You seem to not think that efficiency is a big deal in wvsw though. Its not the same as saving 30 seconds of sit time. ALOT can happen in 30-60 seconds when ur sieging somthing of value or fighting some1 or doing anything of value in wvsw. DOing things efficiently is the key to success in wvsw…and never question the value of saving 10 more supply per siege item placed, that is HUGEEE for pretty much any group.

Furious sharpening stones. I was skeptical about ferocity but actually upon reading it, I’ll give it a shot. I don’t think it’ll be that big of a difference over the cheap stones or the 1 hr potent though. Oh quartz crystals lol. If you exclude them it’s not too bad although I have a quartz node.

The writs seem really situational to me. Maintaining above 90% seems like a difficult thing, but in reality that seems like a lot of work for 50-100 power. Maybe if you are full glass.

I think you folks would be better off to complain about the absolute superiority of the mussels line of foods though.

As for siege, siege is so cheap now for the most part even if you run of heroics. Regular siege is good for those situations where you have exactly enough for it and not enough for a superior. Otherwise, it doesn’t have much use unless you run in a big group where supply isn’t an issue anyways or it’s trivial to resupply (usually EB)

If you want everything to be free, then, you are looking for creative mode?

Cerby.1069:

The goal of pve is to make money.
The goal of pvp is to kill people.
The goal of wvsw is to cap objectives.

And here I was, thinking the goal of every game mode was to have fun….

While gold can be obtained via paying, it can also be obtained via spending time. So, pay-to-win is not really an appropriate term. It’s more like, “Grind for an advantage.” and that is the nature of MMO’s. MMO’s are time sinks disguised as fun.

BlackBeard.2873:

And here I was, thinking the goal of every game mode was to have fun….

Who the hell plays for fun?

IndigoSundown.5419:

While gold can be obtained via paying, it can also be obtained via spending time. So, pay-to-win is not really an appropriate term. It’s more like, “Grind for an advantage.” and that is the nature of MMO’s. MMO’s are time sinks disguised as fun.

WvW costs more to play than it gains. As long as it is tied to the economy, it will always be that way.

ArchonWing.9480:

I think you folks would be better off to complain about the absolute superiority of the mussels line of foods though.
….
As for siege, siege is so cheap now for the most part even if you run of heroics. Regular siege is good for those situations where you have exactly enough for it and not enough for a superior. Otherwise, it doesn’t have much use unless you run in a big group where supply isn’t an issue anyways or it’s trivial to resupply (usually EB)

I did that already: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Why-damage-reduction-food-not-nerfed-yet/first#post6387322

I’m always 1 step ahead of the times.
…

And hey I’m not saying kmart siege aint cheap….it is cheap. And I aint saying most people don’t have an excess of heroics to maintain a cache of superior siege……they do if they don’t solo things or command (most people dont do either lol)

Kmart siege is inadequate to the extent that noone of value should be using it for anything except taking down super low structures, when ur too poor to own guild siege and don’t have enough supply, or as an accompanyment for superior siege (like 1 superior ram and 1 kmart ram for a paper gate). It shouldn’t even exist or be used if you can afford guild siege….and thats really the point of the thread. Money siege has made a whole set of siege completely obsolete…..
I mean if superior siege cost as much as kmart siege and guild siege as much as superior….i wouldn’t be complaining lol. The very fact we agree that kmart siege has its place in the game, even though its obsolete, and theres something that isn’t obsolete that does the same stuff as kmart siege but more…. is really pivotal to the argument that the game is pay-to-win

Cecilia.5179:

IndigoSundown.5419:

While gold can be obtained via paying, it can also be obtained via spending time. So, pay-to-win is not really an appropriate term. It’s more like, “Grind for an advantage.” and that is the nature of MMO’s. MMO’s are time sinks disguised as fun.

WvW costs more to play than it gains. As long as it is tied to the economy, it will always be that way.

WvW can cost a player more than s/he gains there. It doesn’t have to. However, there is certainly an inequity in return for time spent, though reward tracks have improved that a bit. Inequity in gold gain based on play mode may be poor design. That still does not make guild bonuses P2W.

Dawdler.8521:

You complain about pay to win now? When HoT has long matured, every major guild is 50+ and we now get 2g for free every single day?

I wish WvW was filled with chests every 10 feet like it is in the new PvE map.
You are literally tripping over loot in PvE! Whilst in WvW you get peanuts and it takes several of your guild to pay for guild upkeep!

I agree with OP. Also want to point out that the rewards we get in wvw is, and has always been bad. Espesialy for commanders. I am getting used to farm gold in PvE. If i don’t do it, i don’t have enough for siege or food. Useing normal quality siege is just not good. When i roam also i end up with less gold.

Gold buys transfers and more transfers means more numbers which equates to winning. So yes it is P2W.