Guild Wars 2

This afternoon Abbadon’s Mouth took Gandara Bl in less than 10 mins using NO SIEGE WHATSOEVER!

20 mins later they came back and did it again.

They were running an average size blob by AM standards, 40-50 players, but they went through our paper doors in 10 seconds flat. Roughly the time 5-6 Alphas would take to do the job. I don’t know how they did it, and I really don’t care, but PvD = WvW RiP unless something is done about it soon.

Defense is already ridiculously easy in this game. A group of 5 defenders who know what they are doing can easily hold off a group of 25 for a long time.

style.6173:

Defense is already ridiculously easy in this game. A group of 5 defenders who know what they are doing can easily hold off a group of 25 for a long time.

Its not that its easy, its just no nearly as rewarding as going on the offensive.

style.6173:

Defense is already ridiculously easy in this game. A group of 5 defenders who know what they are doing can easily hold off a group of 25 for a long time.

That is true. And I am really getting tired of this topic.

If you don’t want to PvD, then don’t try to capture crap. Just go straight to a waypointed keep, draw them there, and then fight.

Man, you don’t have to PvD if you don’t want to.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

style.6173:

Defense is already ridiculously easy in this game. A group of 5 defenders who know what they are doing can easily hold off a group of 25 for a long time.

Its not that its easy, its just no nearly as rewarding as going on the offensive.

Did you know that defending an objective for 15 minutes gives the exact same reward as capturing a similar objective?

Now, maybe that could be improved, but it’s really not that bad.

The biggest problems for defenders is the siege decay and dedicated scouts.
Here’s what happened to us one night : we once lost t3 garrison to rams due to a lack of scouts, not your typical zerg with golems .

What this problem boils down to is the coverage game and imbalanced matchups, but even then what I see is that people recap their entire borderlands eventually after some perseverance; unless you are up against a t1/2 EU server.
The karma train may come again depending on the resistance on other maps but there is naught you can do, it doesn’t “kill” wvw – you have to adapt to it depending on the matchup.

It is killing the game.

If you play against a server like AM you don’t find anything to fight until the “outmanned sign” pops up. That’s when you know their monsterblob has decided to come and PVD the borderland.
T3 keeps are usually being ignored. The blob just stays as long as it is unattacked or when they captured everything. In most cases they capture the whole bl before the defenders are organised enough to fight.
More and more servers are just running one big blob these days and it’s getting very boring very fast.
No roamers, no fights, just doors, sad excuse of PVP.

Andrew Clear.1750:

style.6173:

Defense is already ridiculously easy in this game. A group of 5 defenders who know what they are doing can easily hold off a group of 25 for a long time.

That is true. And I am really getting tired of this topic.

If you don’t want to PvD, then don’t try to capture crap. Just go straight to a waypointed keep, draw them there, and then fight.

Man, you don’t have to PvD if you don’t want to.

The OP wasn’t saying he hates to PvDoor, he’s saying the enemy PvDoors.

Anyways, defenders are at a disadvantage.

-Defenders have to maintain siege(10 ppl building siege when 5 Omegas and 40 ppl are already hammering away is bad news for defending, assuming there are even supplies)

thus

-Defenders have to constantly scout
-Defenders have to assemble if they can make it there in time or at all
-Defending on walls is a joke

-Attackers just have to decide to huddle up and attack – they have zero other responsibilities
-Silly power creep in siege mastery while structures remain unchanged

If the attackers manage to fail against a small group, they’ll just resupply and come back while the small group has little or no supplies or smash something else that they cannot afford to defend. Essentially, the small group is delaying the inevitable.

AM didn’t bother with our camps. They didn’t use supply. Offensive siege has become obsolete to them and they aren’t interested in defending, so supply is obsolete to them too. To my mind this breaks the game. It’s like a massive exploit and boy have AM exploited it. All they do is rack up points by retaking stuff before anyone has a chance to upgrade it…over and over and over again until we all got sick of it and logged off. If ANet don’t fix this, WvW will become pointless and, for me at least, GW2 will as well.

Nabrok.9023

Did you know that defending an objective for 15 minutes gives the exact same reward as capturing a similar objective?

Now, maybe that could be improved, but it’s really not that bad.

it isnt
killing a champ gives more WXP and a loot chest.
defending a tower rewards nothing except several events.

In war, when your enemy develops new tactics, you need to adapt and come up with new ways to fight them. PvD will always be a thing to some extent. It’s just the way it is. While using siege is much more effective, a mindless zombie mass is a pretty tough thing to argue with. So instead of coming on the forums and shrugging in discontent and frustration, why not just come up with a few ways to get around this problem? Instead of making a thread about OMFG ANET FIX THIS OR I WILL QUIT, why not come to your fellow WvW-ers and ask us what the heck you can do to stop your problem from happening?

I come from a server that has sat at the bottom for a long time. We get night-capped constantly, and we are outnumbered more than we aren’t. So when the enemy has more than us, when they seem unstoppable, we have to approach it differently.

You mentioned something that really struck me as interesting. They didn’t take your camps. This is pivotal. They didn’t take your camps! All that supply is yours! They don’t want it, so use it against them. You will inevitably have some idea where they are headed, so set up siege ahead of time. Not in the keeps/towers (I mean, still do this, but thats normal, I’m talking about something even more underhanded). Get creative. Find a choke point and cut it off. Ballista, arrow carts. It won’t take many players to stop them with this approach, and while you may be killed eventually, you WILL make them pay. You WILL make them stop and think. They are making a grave tactical error by not taking your camps. Exploit it.

Also, Harass their zerg. Constantly. If you die while doing so, WP back and do it again. A small group can pick off stragglers and cause general chaos with minimal effort. I’m not saying it won’t be dangerous. It will be. Extremely so. But who’s gonna live forever? If they are mindlessly zerging, it means they are lazy. They feel safe. They feel like their numbers will protect them. Exploit that mistake. Pick off a few that fall behind, ambush them at places around the map that make sense (my above point falls into this category.)

I don’t disagree with what your posts say, but I do disagree with asking someone else to fix it. That fix MAY come one day, but until then, you have two choices.

1) Stop playing. This option sucks. Don’t do this one.

2) Make them pay. Make the cost of them being in your BL more than they are willing to pay. It will be a bloody process, but you may start to see a change.

Either way, good luck and have fun with it!

Nabarue.3290:

While using siege is much more effective, ….

Unfortunatly this isn’t true anymore.
The most effective way to melt a door, are some necros and a zerg.

!!! ANet please fix this bug fast !!!

style.6173:

Defense is already ridiculously easy in this game. A group of 5 defenders who know what they are doing can easily hold off a group of 25 for a long time.

It is easy to defend if they try to pvd, 5 man group cant defend vs a 25 man group when decent tactics are involved, and its s short fight.

Set Pvd to 1-5 damage.

Obviously paper gates will get melted by a zerg with little resistance, why does it effect your enjoyment of wvw so much when you do not need to bother so much about it – go PvP or pve, or log off and do something else.

People can play how they want, different servers have their own style – with different kinds of players. You may not be facing Servers within your requirements, but you can’t expect fair and balance most of the time with wvw.
Plenty have tried to come up with solutions yet Anet have ignored thus far, they should Be doing everything to break up zergs.

The karma train mentality is sadly never gonna change until they decide to change wvw into a balanced competitive mode – It’s not only a open world PvP mode but also involves some tactical warfare. It is rather casual with the players coming up with their own ideas to make it more ‘hardcore’.

Zergs like that, sometimes called Karma Trains, normally don’t care much about their own BL, they just look for easy loot, wxp and karma. So no, there is no real couter strategy against those brainless blobs unless Anet is willing to do something about those big blobs and uneven matches. Till then, well, yes, quit the game or go for PvE…
Their way to open the gates, called “Holzhammer” (~ a way to achive something without the appropriate tools), shouldn’t work anyway, but unless Anet is willing to change this it simply works well esp. with 50+ clicking “1” while brain afk…
Anyway, if you are still willing to fight them, the best way is to give them something to play with. Get the wooden huts back asap, so they will continue to attack the weakest towers and leave the rest hopefully untouched. It’s like feeding them with what they want.

Look guys, a lot of you have gone off-topic, and few of you get the point I’m trying to make. I didn’t come on here to whine about losing. Let me try to explain what bothers me so much about this ok?

WvW is about capturing and defending fortresses. That’s where the bulk of the points are scored; owning a structure. When a fortress is T0 we call it paper, but it isn’t literally paper, it’s a fortress!. The idea of WvW was to recreate Medieval style sieges with all the organization, artifice, and machinery that those entailed. If fortresses really had paper doors that could be taken down in seconds by a bunch of numptys with swords, the 100 Years War would have lasted a week and a half…and most of that would be travel time.

I don’t expect a fair balance in WvW and I fully expect 20 to be overwhelmed by 70 man golem rushes most of the time. The exhiliration comes from the times that you actually beat them back. I’m not talking about playstyle or server style. I’m quite used to how AM play and have never moaned about it before. I’m not moaning about it now either. They found an easier way to do the job is all. I am saying, however, that 45 people PvDing a gate in 10 seconds utterly breaks the immersion and feeling of reality that kept me hooked on WvW for the last 14 months.

I defy anyone, including those in the AM herd, to find any lasting enjoyment from playing WvW like this. Finally someone found a way to suck all the fun out of a game that I’ve loved so much for such a long time. And I think that’s a shame.

Ok, it’s signet of vamparism…see the other post on the subject. I think it’s a bannable exploit so I’m guessing AM won’t be in WvW again. Sadly it seems that 60 gandarans are running around exploting it today…hope they get punted too…ofc they won’t :p

TLDR: Necro Heal Signet does 7.5k per use. Stack necros = win

Ah so that’s it. Nothing you can do about pvd and being outnumbered but try to defend with what you have.
Sometimes you’ll have more numbers than others at night depending on the matchup you get.

There is no WvW to be done when another server just zone blobs and hits the easiest target then hops to the next map. Doing something else really isn’t an option for people who just want to WvW. Sure, not all servers are the same, but ArenaNet can encourage more nuanced playstyles by changing the mechanics of the game.

Removing PvD is the first proposed option, countering the siege power creep with improved defenses is another. Another issue is how easy it is to just golem rush, and that can be helped by boosting the supply cost of golems (since their increased availability has made the purchase of golems no longer prohibitively expensive for many players), perhaps also making it so they can’t be refreshed/stored indefinitely.

style.6173:

Defense is already ridiculously easy in this game. A group of 5 defenders who know what they are doing can easily hold off a group of 25 for a long time.

simple UN-true !

5 people can not hold 25 men , not even 10 men ( 1 bunker guardian + 4 randoms with 5 omegas with drivers )

/on topic.

eso will do it siege wars and without pvd …. i hope anet react quick on this challenge

Nvm this thread was before the necro signet nerf, where EU abused the signet massively. Why do people Necro obsolete threads.

Desolation once proud server in top 3 is now losing to drakkar lake ……. is a nice example

The issues with WvW are

1) It’s 24/7. The fact we have separate NA and US servers means that those servers which can attract more non-primetime players have better coverage. Congrats to Blackgate for another world first FULL server.
2) Players zerg, PvD can be done by one person during quiet periods
3) The devs promote zerging
4) Nothing about the game rewards defending towers apart from repel the enemy.

and lots more reasons.

But the main thing that is killing WvW are the devs. WvW was never supposed to be a main thing, the devs concentrated on PvE and s/tPvP. Even with more people joining WvW they still have not spent much time on it.

It really does, but then what would we do while we are all standing around?

This thread was about the necro signet, EU abused the hell out of it.

Stop necroing the thread.

conversations change bra

gitflap.9031:

Look guys, a lot of you have gone off-topic, and few of you get the point I’m trying to make. I didn’t come on here to whine about losing. Let me try to explain what bothers me so much about this ok?

WvW is about capturing and defending fortresses. That’s where the bulk of the points are scored; owning a structure. When a fortress is T0 we call it paper, but it isn’t literally paper, it’s a fortress!. The idea of WvW was to recreate Medieval style sieges with all the organization, artifice, and machinery that those entailed. If fortresses really had paper doors that could be taken down in seconds by a bunch of numptys with swords, the 100 Years War would have lasted a week and a half…and most of that would be travel time.

I don’t expect a fair balance in WvW and I fully expect 20 to be overwhelmed by 70 man golem rushes most of the time. The exhiliration comes from the times that you actually beat them back. I’m not talking about playstyle or server style. I’m quite used to how AM play and have never moaned about it before. I’m not moaning about it now either. They found an easier way to do the job is all. I am saying, however, that 45 people PvDing a gate in 10 seconds utterly breaks the immersion and feeling of reality that kept me hooked on WvW for the last 14 months.

I defy anyone, including those in the AM herd, to find any lasting enjoyment from playing WvW like this. Finally someone found a way to suck all the fun out of a game that I’ve loved so much for such a long time. And I think that’s a shame.

50 guys hitting a typical non-reinforced wooden door with huge kitten hammers. What do you expect ? Of course it’s going to melt…it should be even faster considering all the fire fields put on it.

The real wars were hard fought battles with defenders. They couldn’t approach unharmed and hit the door, they would die trying…that’s why they had to siege up, use trebuchets, sieging for days or months to starve the population inside, etc.
Would you siege a fortress for months in a video game ? That does NOT sound very fun imo.

I’m seeing defenders at a huge disadvantage in most cases. There is little or no shelter on the walls within range / LOS of the attackers and the tankers laugh off arrow carts.

The “fortresses” are pretty much a joke. A hand weapon should not even damage a keep door.

Necro bugs aside, and it varies depending on the location, but it really is is easy to defend structures against the typical karma train. All it takes is a bit of siege and players willing to scout. Almost every gate in WvW can be defended from rams by a well placed treb, either within the structure or in neighboring ones. Even a couple of well placed superior ACs will discourage door bashing.

The thing is players often do not defend or scout. This is entirely a player issue because Anet hands are tied. They cannot buff defending rewards in any significant way. Why do you ask? Because show me a way to reward defense and I can show you garbage players who will exploit it.

Give WxP, ExP, gold, or anything else for refreshing siege, and watch troll siege bloom. Give a tick of reward for staying in one structure for any given amount of time and watch your ques fill with people who do nothing but sit there. It’s the very reason Yak escorts no longer give rewards.

And these useless players still find ways to be useless. I personally blessed out two up level players the other day for repairing a wall that was still being trebbed. We were trying to pile up supply in SM after having been attacked on two fronts with more incoming possible, and saw them evaporate at least 300 supply just for the WxP/exp. Despite repeated requests from commanders and other players to not draw SM supply. And were openly defiant about it when called out in chat.

Supply, I might add, that was earned through the actions of good players taking/defending camps, and escorting yaks. For minimal rewards.

Which is why you defend or scout – for the good of the team, not game rewards. Personally I try to take the last hour or so of my night and just pick a spot, running supply, refreshing siege, minding upgrades, and calling incomings, it’s a great way to wind down. But I also do it if I’m split off from the main group for some reason, it just takes a minute or two it’s not hard to do.

Basharic.1654:

Why do you ask? Because show me a way to reward defense and I can show you garbage players who will exploit it.

The problem from the beginning is:

No player has any influence on who is in his team.

You have to accept trolls, you have to accept leachers, you have to accept karma-train-blober, you have to accept small-skill-roamer, you have to even accept hacker and …., because your only way to refuse playing with them is to leave the game yourself.

And this is the same in WvW as it is in EotM.

Allow people to build alliance of Guilds (meta-guilds) that form WvW and EotM teams for a challenge and make overflow random teams for the rest.

Ithilwen.1529:

I’m seeing defenders at a huge disadvantage in most cases. There is little or no shelter on the walls within range / LOS of the attackers and the tankers laugh off arrow carts.

The “fortresses” are pretty much a joke. A hand weapon should not even damage a keep door.

Again, have you ever seen a real medieval castle ? I have and i must say doors aren’t that thick.

Dayra.7405:

Basharic.1654:

Why do you ask? Because show me a way to reward defense and I can show you garbage players who will exploit it.

The problem from the beginning is:

No player has any influence on who is in his team.

You have to accept trolls, you have to accept leachers, you have to accept karma-train-blober, you have to accept small-skill-roamer, you have to even accept hacker and …., because your only way to refuse playing with them is to leave the game yourself.

And this is the same in WvW as it is in EotM.

Allow people to build alliance of Guilds (meta-guilds) that form WvW and EotM teams for a challenge and make overflow random teams for the rest.

Eh it’s WvW, it’s open world pvp, the control you want there still comes in the guild groups. And an acknowledgement that there is only so much you can worry about. Kinda like real life. There’s been plenty of times I’ve seen a public commander turn off the tag and go full guild/mumble team, or pull a couple of stunts to loose the brainless players. And to a degree yes, we have to accept the “some people suck” aspect of things.

I just like to remind folks that there are plenty of things ArenaNet can do to reward defense. But because of a certain subset of the player base we can’t have nice things. It is 100 percent a player issue that prevents it. Every game has to deal with it, and in my experience, no game has ever managed to deal with it successfully.

Because if you try to jerk proof something, people just make better jerks.

Basharic.1654:

Eh it’s WvW, it’s open world pvp, the control you want there still comes in the guild groups.

And why is this a reason that the people cannot decide which of the 5000 people are in their team? I mean you can decide who is in your guild (even if this is much less relevant), but you cannot decide which guilds and maybe also single player want to build a team to play together. Only if there is a possibility of sanctions (kick from guild/alliance), social control can animate people to good behavior.