Guild Wars 2

The current debate over the power of Conditions is exasperated by the fact that all Condition classes you encounter in WvW boast an additional 36/40% Condition duration from food.

This food is a balance anomaly as it far outpaces the benefits of any other food in this game by leagues. To drive this point home I will compare it to other forms of Condition Duration increases. This food (and by extension, the-40% Condition Duration food too) dilute any reasonable debate about this topic because of their huge impact on game-play.

Similar to how the old Omnomberry Pie blessed Crit-builds with extreme survivability, Rare Veggie Pizza makes Condition builds far more powerful than they’d normally be.

But let’s see how various other forms of Condition Duration are budgeted.

Most level 80 food that focuses Duration increases follow the same model by adding 15% to the respective Condition and 70% to a stat.

Examples:

Bowl of Fire Meat Chili
+15% Burning Duration
+70 Precision

Chocolate Omnomberry Cake
+15% Chill Duration
+70 Power

etc.

comparing this to Power foods it’s easy to conclude that 15% Condition Duration to a single type is budgeted the same as +100 stats.

Examples:

Spicy Butternut Squash Soup
+100 Power
+10% Crit-Damage

Fancy Potato Leak Soup
+100 Precision
+70 Condition Damage

etc.

This is somewhat mirrored in the trait-lines where going 30 points into one tree will add 300 Power, 300 Precision, 30% Critical Strike Damage or 30% Condition Duration.
The standard here seems to be 100 Power/Precision equal 10% Condition Duration or 15% Duration to a single Condition type.

In comes the (not so) Rare Veggie Pizza (representative of all Condition Duration foods).

Rare Veggie Pizza
+40% Condition Duration
+70 Condition Damage

This food in itself adds more Condition Duration than an entire, fully specced, trait line. It adds 3 times as much Condition Duration as any other level 80 food. And does so to ALL Conditions as opposed to a single type.

Applying the budgeting standards above it equates to a Food that adds +400 Power and +70 Precision.

Rune sets that typically apply diverse and powerful boni generally considered more potent than food, add a mere 10% Condition Duration.

My point being.

Compared to ALL other standards applied within this game, this vast increase in Condition Duration provided by food is an anomaly and dilutes any reasonable debate about Conditions by extending them far beyond their means.

In simply cannot understand how such a powerful food is allowed to exist when it so clearly breaches established standards.

PS: The same reasoning applies to the -40% Food. No combination of Runes and Food should make you practically impervious to an entire damage type. Point being, no food should affect anything by 40%.

+1

/15 chars

+1

Changing the value to smth arround +/-10% condition duration would be nice imho.

You are 100% correct. Someone screwed up – probably unintentionally – but they should own up and change the condition food, both +/- to 15%

While I use, and quite like the +40% duration, I would be OK with them changing the +40% so long as the change the -40% to match. I only run the +40% because if someone has the -40% I’m completely crippled on a lot of the damage my build produces.

You are right though, it’s such a drastic difference from other foods.

Edit: crippled, used a different word that got changed to kitten.

Yes, the -40% would need to be changed as well.

And yes, please change this godforsaken food. It’s the silliest thing ever. I only use the +40% to both counter -40% so it’s an actual fight, and to be on the same field as other +40%. Being able to get +100% condi duration is just silly buggers.

completely agree. it sucks that you basically HAVE to use this stuff and a condition class/spec.

but there already have been numerous thread about this (and in some there even were a couple of kittens defending the food) for months, but anet just doesnt care.

Psh.

Koi Cakes.

—

OT: That food should be nerfed hard. I like my 70% condition duration, but nobody should be able to get it this easily.

K U T M.4539:

Psh.

Koi Cakes.

—

OT: That food should be nerfed hard. I like my 70% condition duration, but nobody should be able to get it this easily.

Yeah, I don’t actually use the Pizza, I use the Koi Cakes, but same difference for the purpose of the OP’s point.

+1

Increased condition duration is only potential damage, it can be cleansed and fairly easily.

100% agree. REMOVE both – 40% and + 40% condi duration foods. they are way over the top. Or reduce the effect of both to maximum 10% + -

Hoof.1523:

100% agree. REMOVE both – 40% and + 40% condi duration foods. they are way over the top. Or reduce the effect of both to maximum 10% + -

+1

Hoof.1523:

100% agree. REMOVE both – 40% and + 40% condi duration foods. they are way over the top. Or reduce the effect of both to maximum 10% + -

The way I see it.. Both or nothing lol

it’s beneficial for both sides to get the food in line with other foods. nerfing both of em will likely mean that people will drop the -% food, thus leaving condi specs with their +10% condition duration. Win-win?

This seems to be something that most people fairly thing is a bad food design.

Probably it will be changed, and if it is going to be nerfed, i do not think it will be a big nerf, since a lot of people already has invested on them.

I agree any food buff that adds more than 30% of anything is most likely overpowered.

the way ANet sees it, 1% cond duration = 10 stat = 1% crit damage, according to traits and every other food except for the +/- 40%. So yea if they nerf it, it will be a big nerf, because that’s what’s needed to bring that food in line with the others.

I am okay with reducing the effectiveness on veggie (and lemongrass), but there better be alternatives introduced in the light of things like the bursting rune to make up for the decrease the condition classes would see in overall effectiveness.

Direct damage increase foods per conditions would be nice, such as a specific food that increase the damage of a particular condition by x%, so condition classes could specialize.

I think a lot of condition classes would prefer trading up duration for damage, but that won’t make the complaining of people who get spiked down by conditions any softer.

Even if you sack 40% of my duration, I still have enough base duration to melt a group of people who don’t want to bother with stun breaks and condition clears. That won’t change unless they remove all the additional condition scaling they added over the past year. Bursting, scavenging, guard stacks, crystals, corruption stacks, on-crit procs. Then rework free trait procs, like dumbfire.

You may get your way, and all conditions will go the way of confusion, and just see a massive damage reduction, I realize that is all that would please some people. We can then all roll power and wax laconically about the days when there were alternative builds.

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

This food is very overpowered and enables heavy condition specced classes to faceroll others in wvw. I used this food on my warrior and necro for some time in wvw and it was VERY easy to win 1v1 and sometimes even 1v3 or if I was lucky 1v4 fights.

Now I refrain from using the 40% condition food. I generally don’t play my condition specced characters anymore.

To all who disagree with a nerf are either one of those who take advantage of it or are wannabe elitists that say learn to play.

For the love of balance, you gotta nerf this to at least 20%.

The food is canceled out by another food entirely.

not sure what the complaint is?

Terravos.4059:

The food is canceled out by another food entirely.

not sure what the complaint is?

That the foods are budgetted poorly and as such create stat disparities that make counter food a must instead of promoting variety?

I see the point but conditions do not exist in a vacuum. Unlike direct damage, conditions can be completely removed before they run out their duration. It would take some pretty serious stat crunching to see the real effect of foods in WvW. None of which is really practical without a decent combat log.

Its still condition duration…not, technically dmg. More like potential dmg if you or your party members don’t do something about it. Out of the 5 of you, someone or someones ought to be able to control the food buff.

Maybe delegate a slot or 2 to condition control if you feel the issue is affecting you too much?

I deal with this issuse every day on my guard. Judging by my current opponents how much condition control I need to delegate over my regular shouts. And changing on the run.

Personally, I think those kinds of off-the-cuff decisions make the game interesting.

Besides, my Necro loves pizza

I think the reason it’s at 40% is to have an actual impact on all condition skills.

ie: a large portion of the conditions applying skills have really short durations, for which a 10% bump would have zero effect.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

I think the reason it’s at 40% is to have an actual impact on all condition skills.

ie: a large portion of the conditions applying skills have really short durations, for which a 10% bump would have zero effect.

Conditions in general are already way overpowered and ridiculous. Short durations are a good thing. Next thing they should do is nerf the damage output or some way to take us out of this absurd condition meta.

I agree to nerfing both the + and – duration foods.

I don’t mind condition specs, but these foods are apex predators. There is nothing better than them; therefore there is no real choice of food in builds.

I’m all for nerfing or even removing both of them. It would add variety to the game. The other option would be to buff the +critdmg food to +40% as well. And really…nobody wants that.

Cush.4063:

Conditions in general are already way overpowered and ridiculous.

I don’t understand why ppl keep repeating this nonsense.

the player base spent a year kittening about thieves and warriors being OP, suddenly condition builds start to catch up just a little and the easymode gankers are up in arms.

perma stealth was overpowered and ridiculous
stun-lock was overpowered and ridiculous

conditions in general? not remotely overpowered and accessible by way more classes than previous problem mechanics.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Cush.4063:

Conditions in general are already way overpowered and ridiculous.

I don’t understand why ppl keep repeating this nonsense.

the player base spent a year kittening about thieves and warriors being OP, suddenly condition builds start to catch up just a little and the easymode gankers are up in arms.

perma stealth was overpowered and ridiculous
stun-lock was overpowered and ridiculous

conditions in general? not remotely overpowered and accessible by way more classes than previous problem mechanics.

Condition spam is unbalanced compared to a number of builds and classes that cannot reasonably fight them.

Against organized groups/guilds any emphasis on increasing condition duration is a waste of stats. There are enough cleanses in the game to remove any increased duration off a guild indefinitely. I presume the complaints would be related to small scale solo fights. I do have alot of trouble with some bunker condi specs on my thief as I just don’t have enough cleanse and sword usage reduce my DPS output considerably when I deplete my entire initiative trying to cleanse several conditions that are being applied to me right the way through the fight.

Terravos.4059:

The food is canceled out by another food entirely.

not sure what the complaint is?

This mentality is intensely detrimental to the health of the game. Why not make a 200% condi duration food, so long as you have -200% condi duration? They cancel each other out, after all. No complaints necessary.

The problem isn’t really just with the +40% condi duration. In my opinion, -40% condi duration is a bigger issue. If you’re a condi class, and you don’t run +40%, but someone runs -40%, you almost might as well not even fight them. The most popular example I’ve seen was from the Warrior boards. You can get Dogged March, Melandru runes, and -40% condi duration food, and you’ll have -98% duration on cripple, chill, and immob.

It isn’t just Condi Necros that really feel this impact, either. As a Powermancer, my control comes very much from Immobilize/Chill. I run +40% duration food because without it, my Immobilize suddenly doesn’t last nearly as long as it needs to, and Chill runs off much quicker as well. If someone doesn’t have -40% in this case, they are chilled for basically forever, and my Immobilize on Dagger MH lasts 5.25 seconds.

It’s just a terrible case of extremes. I’m more concerned about people NEEDING to use this food instead of people having the OPTION of using the food. Not taking it can totally screw you over in some cases, and that’s just silly. It isn’t that I don’t think direct damage isn’t also scaling hilariously in WvW, but I don’t think an arms race between power and condition potential is the answer.

EDIT – Fixed an error.

Great post DJ, the +/- condi duration food is far more powerful than it should be as your analysis shows.

The fact that +/- food cancels and the effectiveness of cleanses is orthogonal to the power issue.

I believe conditions are too powerful and arenanet’s balancing approach of adding more condition damage and cleansing is absolutely wrong. For example, giving condi necro’s a grotesque amount of condi burst and trying to balance it by giving Diamond Skin ele’s condi immunity is bizarre and seems more motivated at balancing class distribution in that backwater kittenhole that is sPvP rather than balancing the game.

AoE condi damage needs to be reduced – period.

Cush.4063:

Conditions in general are already way overpowered and ridiculous….

Overpowered?
Hardly, you are just looking for an easy way out of taking them into consideration in your build. It would be so much easier for you if you didn’t have to take condition cleansing and could focus on mitigating regular damage. Which is exactly why condition damage should remain a threat.

frans.8092:

Cush.4063:

Conditions in general are already way overpowered and ridiculous….

Overpowered?
Hardly, you are just looking for an easy way out of taking them into consideration in your build. It would be so much easier for you if you didn’t have to take condition cleansing and could focus on mitigating regular damage. Which is exactly why condition damage should remain a threat.

There are ligitiamate arguments to be made about the stat allocation of this food, but the guys who are spouting about how ridiculous conditions are just don’t want to bother with them. They are likely thieves and mesmers who would rather run stealth or offensive utilities instead of removal, so that they can stay invisible and hit for massive damage, and then not have to worry about anything because while invisible they are nigh impossible to hit with direct damage skills.

Conditions counter builds which otherwise would have no counter… you ruin those condition builds and now you have the other 30% of WvW playing the classes that currently 70% play now (warrior, thief, mesmer, guardian).

The biggest issue is the disparity while fighting a condi class between – taking no removal, taking some removal, and taking all the removal you can.

No removal – you get obliterated – okay
Some removal – you get obliterated – not okay
Kitchen sink removal – 50/50 (on most classes) – okay

Cogbyrn.7283:

The problem isn’t really just with the +40% condi duration. In my opinion, -40% condi duration is a bigger issue. If you’re a condi class, and you don’t run +40%, but someone runs -40%, you almost might as well not even fight them. The most popular example I’ve seen was from the Warrior boards. You can get Dogged March, Melandru runes, and -40% condi duration food, and you’ll have -98% duration on cripple, chill, and immob.

Every class has a trait line that boosts condition duration. Condition duration (Givers, Malice, trait lines, traits, 5 rune sets, food), is also much easier to get than condition reduction (3 rune sets, traits, food) . The foods at best balance themselves out.

As for the warrior, Dogged March is very good but notice these are not the conditions that deal significant damage. Warriors will still get torn up by condition builds if they don’t run Cleansing Ire or a Shout build even with Hoelbrak and Food.

+15% add an another second only if original duration of a single application (multiple hit does not count) is longer than 7s.

List of applications of burning that last at least 7s on one hit :

• Well of Corruption and Corrupt Boon (if aegis removed with duration > 7s)
• Throw Lava Rock (thief stolen skill) : 12s
• Signet of Fire : 9s
• Flame Leap (fire axe skill) : 7s
• Shimmering Defense (trait III valor) : 7s

List of applications of chill that last at least 7s on one hit :

• Ice Shard Stab (thief stolen skill) : 10s

List of applications of bleed that last at least 7s on one hit :

• Gash : 8s
• Pin Down : 12s (3 stacks)
• Riposte : 12s (4 stacks)
• Sever Artery : 8s
• Crippling Talon : 8s (3 stacks)
• Death Blossom : 10s (3 stacks)
• Twisting Fangs : 10s
• Churning Earth : 8s (8 stacks)
• Eruption : 12 s (6stacks)
• Impale (elem) : 8s
• Ring of Earth : 12s
• Shockwave : 20s
• Winds of Chaos : 7s
• Enfeebling Blood : 10s (2stacks)
• Grasping Dead : 7s (3 stacks)
• Mark of Blood : 8s (3 stacks)
• Dart : 10s
• Dark Spear : 8s (5 stacks)
• Rock Spray : 10s (between 1 and 3 stacks)
• Blood Is Power : 30s to target and 10s to self (2 stacks)
• Well of Corruption and Corrupt Boon (if aegis removed with duration > 7s)
• Signet of Spite : 10s (2 stacks)
• Shrapnel Mine : 20s
• Seed Turret (and turrents from Take Root) : 10s
• Entangle : 8s (14 stacks)
• Shrapnel Grenade : 12s
• Charging Bite : 10s (5 stacks)
• Lacerating Slash : 15s (2 stacks)
• Maul (feline) : 10s (4 stacks)
• Rending Maul : 7s (2 stacks)
• Rending Pounce : 10s (4 stacks)
• Deadly Strike : 10s
• Rusty Scrap Strike : 10s (thief stolen skill)
• The Ripper : 7s (3 stacks)
• Throw Scale : 10s (thief stolen skill)
• Tooth Stab : 60s (thief stolen skill)
• Venomous Knife : 8s (3 stacks)
• Sharpnel : 12s (II explosives)
• Evasive Arcana (earth) : 20s
• Superior Sigil of Geomancy : 7s (3 stacks)

List of applications of poison that last at least 7s on one hit :

• Stalker’s Strike : 10s
• Well of Corruption and Corrupt Boon (if regeneration removed with duration > 7s)
• Vent Radiation (asura toolbelt) : 9s
• Exploding Venom Sack (thief stolen skill) : 10s
• Rusty Scrap Strike : 10s (thief stolen skill)
• Throw Scale : 20s (thief stolen skill)
• Venomous Knife : 8s
• Dark Water : 7s
• Leap on Poison field : 8s

List of applications of torment that last at least 7s on one hit :

• Impale (war) : 12s (4 stacks)
• Illusionary Counter : 8s (5 stacks)
• Tainted Shackles : 10s (3 stacks)
• Superior Rune of Tormenting (already provides +45%) : 10s (2 stacks)
• Superior Sigil of Torment : 8s

List of applications of confusion that last at least 7s on one hit :

• Well of Corruption and Corrupt Boon (if retail removed with duration > 7s)
• Distracting Strikes : 8s (4 stacks)
• Superior Rune of Perplexity (already provides +30% duration bugged) : 10s (5 stacks)

(Don’t want to do other conditions but you get the point)

Conclusion :
Food with +15% on chill /burn is totaly useless
Bleed / poison will benefit much of a +15% only

Suggestion :
move +40%/-40% all conditions duration to +15%/-15%
move +15%/-15% specific conditions duration to +25%/-25%

@ich: That’s an impressive list, and it’s useful when monitoring conditions that tick damage on second intervals. Gaining condition duration that doesn’t result in additional damage is an interesting analysis, but concluding that +15% condi duration on Chill is useless forgets the fact that Chill doesn’t care about damage or ticks, it’s just a general movement/cooldown slow. An additional half-second of Chill is still useful.

However, I think it’s a good idea to have specific condition durations higher than general condition duration.

Where are condition builds currently used…

Solo and in SPvP..

You don’t see them used in PVE, and you don’t see them used in Large Scale PvP

complaining you lost to a Bunker type build in 1v1 because you didn’t want to counter Condition Duration with anti Condition duration food is silly.. Those people are countering your power by investing as much into defense as possible.

i cant help but think that this is one big qq; you cant cleanse direct damage.

as much as it pains me to say it: adapt.

Of course any nerf to increased condition food would be met with an equal nerf to condition duration reduction food. Figured that’d be a given.
I’m on the fence about this as a whole, seeing all of the condition removal flying around. If it gave +40% to condition damage, that’d be different. That’d be significantly more powerful as that doesn’t get peeled by condition removal and can be felt right away.
I don’t really notice when my condition duration food has run out, so if this were to happen I’d just pop something else.

~ Kovu

+1

Both food should be tweaked to around +15% and -15% condition duration. Food that increases duration of a specific condition maybe upped to 25%? Clearly the +40% condition duration food is overwhelmingly better than any other offensive food. The defensive foods look more game changing on average than most offensive foods but are of course very situational.

Terravos.4059:

Where are condition builds currently used…

Solo and in SPvP..

You don’t see them used in PVE, and you don’t see them used in Large Scale PvP

complaining you lost to a Bunker type build in 1v1 because you didn’t want to counter Condition Duration with anti Condition duration food is silly.. Those people are countering your power by investing as much into defense as possible.

Thank you. Logic FTW.

Conditions really need to be reworked altogether. I would rather see the +/- duration food taken out and conditions be effected by toughness to be honest. It’s been said many times over but it is simply way to easy to gear up for toughness/vitality/condition damage to achieve great survivability and great damage.

Too many conditions are AoE or on auto attack and it gets to a point where even classes with decent condition cleanses simply can’t keep up. Not too mention that by their very nature conditions allow for a relatively no brain passive game play style where you can just drop them and kite around while they destroy people.

Unfortunately Anet has made it very attractive to run bunker builds that can be combined with super high condition damage. I’m not sure how anyone could sit down at a planning table and come up with the idea of combining super tankiness and super condition damage on the same character and think that is a good idea.

I know I said making toughness mitigate condition damage might be a good idea but the more I think about it the more I doubt that as well. That just might end up making tank/condition builds even more survivable as they would then be mitigating even more damage with that proposal. They probably screwed up when they introduced some of the new armors into the game that made it too easy to make these builds. Also, I don’t think introducing torment as another condition in a game full of them was the best idea either.

At this point I think there has been so much discussion regarding conditions, both pro and con, that hearing from Anet would be nice.

Blackjack.2083:

…It’s been said many times over but it is simply way to easy to gear up for toughness/vitality/condition damage to achieve great survivability and great damage.

You can gear up with Toughness/Vitality/Power gear and achieve great survivability and damage. The fact that power builds have the choice to go even deeper into damage with critical hits while condition builds do not have a similar choice could be interpreted as an existing imbalance favouring power.

Too many conditions are AoE or on auto attack and it gets to a point where even classes with decent condition cleanses simply can’t keep up.

Regaular damage is applied through auto attacks as well – and regular heals will not keep up with those either.

Not too mention that by their very nature conditions allow for a relatively no brain passive game play style where you can just drop them and kite around while they destroy people.

They can be dodged, blocked etc …

Unfortunately Anet has made it very attractive to run bunker builds that can be combined with super high condition damage.

It’s a type of variety analogous to what you’d see in biological diversity, condition bunkers are like an evolutionary answer to glass canon specs.

I’m not sure how anyone could sit down at a planning table and come up …

It’s possibly an attempt to promote diversity and change. If it leads to more build diversity and choice it’s probably ok, even if some particular, overly specialized builds become extinct. If however it leads to less diversity it would not be ok.

Can’t compare condition damage and power, they are 2 different things.

+-10% condi duration is way too little, compared to e.g. +10% crit dmg lol, please think a little.
Minimum 20% for condis, maybe 25% or smth like that.

Aphix.9846:

+-10% condi duration is way too little, compared to e.g. +10% crit dmg lol, please think a little.
Minimum 20% for condis, maybe 25% or smth like that.

Why? Traitlines are also balanced for 30% condi duration to 30% critdmg. That’s just how it is and should be the same for food.

I agree that stun lock and abundant stealth are also serious issues, which attention from Arenanet, but let’s stick to the topic:

Condition duration related foods are too powerful at the moment. I am using them everyday when I play my engineer, even though I am running a power / hybrid build. I don’t that much point invested in condition damage, but I need to use the foods to counter the Lemongrass poultry soup (-40 % condition duration) to make the immobilize, cripple it last reasonable amount of time.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Lemongrass_Poultry_Soup

That food combined with Melandru armor set and traits like dogged march and reduce the duration of conditions to completely redundant amounts, thus I need to have at least +70% condition duration to counter that (I run +80% condition duration).

At the same time condition duration increase foods can create crazily long last bleeds, perma poison, perma weakness and so on at ease. A fully traited and geared condition necromancer just slapping Signet of Spite can almost kill a solo roamer, who doesn’t have lots of condition removal, using just one skill and 1+2 staff marks, from 1200 range:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_spite

Condition spam is still very popular in the current meta and doesn’t require much any skill from the attacker. You can just reapply the conditions faster than they can be removed and many players use their skill on cooldown. The real problem is that you can have very high toughness, pretty tanky build, still lots of condition pressure in the same build. Power based builds need to select between survivability or damage. Thieves and mesmers are an exception, due easy access to shadowstepping/teleports and stealth. The problem is the amount of condition damage ticks, especially from burning, but also from sources like bleed and poison. I think the total duration of some conditions (e.g. constant uptime of poison) and the damage tick should be evaluated by the the developers of this game. Now a fully dire/rampager ascended geared condition based attacker can achieve around 7k dmg/second (theoretical amounts are even higher). That is a LOT of pressure. I would say too much pressure damage considering the same character can still enjoy very high toughness.

I think the condition duration foods should affect max. +20% more and max -20% less.