Guild Wars 2

The problem is it’s a “one size fits all” approach.

Not all conditions are the same, not all are as dangerous.

+40% duration on blind really doesn’t matter. Nobody would complain about even +100% duration on blind.

+40% duration on bleeds is useful, but not gamebreaking. I’d say it’s comparable to other foods.

+40% on freeze/immobilise/fear is absurdly powerful, and is far stronger than any other food buff.

Incidentally, treating all conditions as the same is what means they can’t balance conditions for large scale fights. Freeze, immob, cripple, blind, weakness, poison, are all still very useful in large-scale, because they only need to stick for a few seconds to have an impact. Whereas bleeds are completely useless in large scale, because they need to stick for 10+ seconds to be effective.

This means they can’t just reduce AoE-cleansing across the board to make conditions viable in large scale, because then immob/freeze/weakness spam would become brokenly powerful. But if they leave things as they are, then bleeds remain worthless.

TLDR: Conditions can’t be balanced as long as they’re all treated the same.

These foods, used with some professions are over the top. Other professions, need them.
Playing a ranger without this food and Lyssa/Melandru runes are close to impossible in 1v1 settings.

I simply think, for once, the other food should be brought UP a bit, and the +/- 40% duration food should be brought DOWN equally much.

a wild suggestion. Foods apply the following;
200 Stat X/25% specific condition duration/125% magic find
125 Stat Y/15% critical damage/25% boon duration

Don’t buff food. You must always consider the cost some of these possess and the advantage people using them have over people who don’t. Actually i think the best solution would be removing food entirely, at least from WvW.

Ragnar.4257:

The problem is it’s a “one size fits all” approach.

Not all conditions are the same, not all are as dangerous.

+40% duration on blind really doesn’t matter. Nobody would complain about even +100% duration on blind.

+40% duration on bleeds is useful, but not gamebreaking. I’d say it’s comparable to other foods.

+40% on freeze/immobilise/fear is absurdly powerful, and is far stronger than any other food buff.

Incidentally, treating all conditions as the same is what means they can’t balance conditions for large scale fights. Freeze, immob, cripple, blind, weakness, poison, are all still very useful in large-scale, because they only need to stick for a few seconds to have an impact. Whereas bleeds are completely useless in large scale, because they need to stick for 10+ seconds to be effective.

This means they can’t just reduce AoE-cleansing across the board to make conditions viable in large scale, because then immob/freeze/weakness spam would become brokenly powerful. But if they leave things as they are, then bleeds remain worthless.

TLDR: Conditions can’t be balanced as long as they’re all treated the same.

So would you suggest taking out foods that buff all conditions universally, entirely and instead introduce/tweak foods that buff specific conditions? Such as food that increases Blind by 60%, Bleed by 40% and something like freeze, immobilise or fear by only 20%? Just throwing numbers around.

~ Kovu

its so blatantly unbalanced I have no idea why it has not been touched or revised after all this time

I see no problem with the food as is now, several ways to counter (runes, food, traits). Once you break down the math of the 40% increase in condition duration in terms of actual damage ticks, it isn’t OP at all IMO.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

Damage is determined per second, so the increase needs to be at least a second for anymore damage to be applied. The condition needs to ‘tick’ again. So for the people suggesting a nerf to 15 or even 20%, that means for the damage conditions, you need a base duration of 5 seconds for the food to even have an effect at all. During this time you can clear the condition as well. As previously posted, condition damage can be thought of as ‘potential damage’ over time. At least this is my current understanding, if I got this wrong please correct me.

Medazolam.3058:

I see no problem with the food as is now, several ways to counter (runes, food, traits). Once you break down the math of the 40% increase in condition duration in terms of actual damage ticks, it isn’t OP at all IMO.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

Damage is determined per second, so the increase needs to be at least a second for anymore damage to be applied. The condition needs to ‘tick’ again. So for the people suggesting a nerf to 15 or even 20%, that means for the damage conditions, you need a base duration of 5 seconds for the food to even have an effect at all. During this time you can clear the condition as well. As previously posted, condition damage can be thought of as ‘potential damage’ over time. At least this is my current understanding, if I got this wrong please correct me.

lets not forget about the perplexity runes confusion spammers though wich can hardly be countered in classes with low condi remove thanks to how condi removal removes the one freaking skill that least harms you

and immobilize now that it stacks being immob for 20+ seconds on top of interupts knockdowns and stuns is just absurd

and you just pointed out why it is broken because the only way to counter condition duration food is with -40% condi duration food

People ignoring condition mechanics, people ignoring condition clears, people ignoring condition reduction traits which would become stronger… seems like some people just want to be able to totally ignore condition builds.

I agree that stacking immobilize is rubbish though.

Aberrant.6749:

People ignoring condition mechanics, people ignoring condition clears, people ignoring condition reduction traits which would become stronger… seems like some people just want to be able to totally ignore condition builds.

I agree that stacking immobilize is rubbish though.

you’re partially right as well

poison,bleed,blind,burn,chill,weak(cripple on some classes) would be Extremely underwhelming without that extra condi duration but that is main a skill flaw i say 2-4s condi duration on those conditions is just too weak

Rezzet.3614:

Aberrant.6749:

People ignoring condition mechanics, people ignoring condition clears, people ignoring condition reduction traits which would become stronger… seems like some people just want to be able to totally ignore condition builds.

I agree that stacking immobilize is rubbish though.

you’re partially right as well

poison,bleed,blind,burn,chill,weak(cripple on some classes) would be Extremely underwhelming without that extra condi duration but that is main a skill flaw i say 2-4s condi duration on those conditions is just too weak

I agree… my eng pistol auto attack is a good example of how some things would be a TOTAL joke without the food increase.

If people are fine with the damage part, but not the cc part… why not just ask to have roots/fears placed in a catagory that isn’t increased by cond duration like a stun/daze Vs. have ALL conds messed over by a food debuff? Softer CC is fine though IMO (cripple/chill).

Rezzet.3614:

Medazolam.3058:

I see no problem with the food as is now, several ways to counter (runes, food, traits). Once you break down the math of the 40% increase in condition duration in terms of actual damage ticks, it isn’t OP at all IMO.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

Damage is determined per second, so the increase needs to be at least a second for anymore damage to be applied. The condition needs to ‘tick’ again. So for the people suggesting a nerf to 15 or even 20%, that means for the damage conditions, you need a base duration of 5 seconds for the food to even have an effect at all. During this time you can clear the condition as well. As previously posted, condition damage can be thought of as ‘potential damage’ over time. At least this is my current understanding, if I got this wrong please correct me.

lets not forget about the perplexity runes confusion spammers though wich can hardly be countered in classes with low condi remove thanks to how condi removal removes the one freaking skill that least harms you

and immobilize now that it stacks being immob for 20+ seconds on top of interupts knockdowns and stuns is just absurd

and you just pointed out why it is broken because the only way to counter condition duration food is with -40% condi duration food

yes the mass immob is an issue for sure

however the math behind the condition duration shows that you do NOT need the -40% to counter some of the damage, even a -20% can drop the duration so that it reduce the damage by a tick. the condition has to reach a full extra second to do the damage, no partial credit. so even less than 40% reduction can have an effect. you can obtain condition duration reduction from more than just food.

anyways, from recent dev posts, it appears conditions may actually be buffed in PvE, we will have to wait and see about WvW

kitten Xsorus… I used to respect you, back when there were only tears about how terrible Rangers were, you put in work and showed sword, axe (and off-hand variants) Rangers were top-tier WvW duelists – now you’re taking a one-way trip to scrub-town defending Pizza.

I run a very similar build to yours, Pizza is blatantly unbalanced… there’s simply no other option, you eat it. Heck, I sometimes eat it on my non-condition Thief just to give that juicy 1/2 second immob on sword 2 and pistol 2.

That ish is broken, sorry – saying ‘just eat the -40% food’ is like saying: ‘just take food out of the game altogether’.

OP +1

Then also rework how conditions tick. Getting 40% on a 1sec Bleed does nothing as it fails to reach the required full second for an additional tick.

Reducing it to something low like 10%, or uneven like 15%, just means its going to be useless in a lot of situations. Gain 1 extra tick on something that has to last 10seconds to begin with is not a big seller… especially not if at such durations its likely removed anyway.

Unlike +crit damage which always aplies more damage to crits, even at very low % increase. And also does not cap out.

+ and – condi duration food really need to go…it’s the epitome of pointless R/P/S that adds nothing interesting to the game. Anet was pretty quick to nerf life stealing pie when it was obvious how insanely powerful it was, and they also did a good job getting equally stupid non-food cons (ash legion spy kit, skale venom, golem in a box, gear, etc.) out of wvw in a timely fashion. I don’t know what the holdup has been for condi food.

For that matter, it would be nice to see a long term plan for cons in general in WvW. It gets old carrying all this stuff around and essentially paying to slightly 1-up other players or be equal, depending on your point of view. Between cons, kill stacks, and ascended gear, it’s got way out of hand. The old “well, wvw is not supposed to be balanced” argument is not a good one. These are the types of things that annoy players and push them away more than keeping them interested in the game in the long term.

Rezzet.3614:

Medazolam.3058:

I see no problem with the food as is now, several ways to counter (runes, food, traits). Once you break down the math of the 40% increase in condition duration in terms of actual damage ticks, it isn’t OP at all IMO.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

Damage is determined per second, so the increase needs to be at least a second for anymore damage to be applied. The condition needs to ‘tick’ again. So for the people suggesting a nerf to 15 or even 20%, that means for the damage conditions, you need a base duration of 5 seconds for the food to even have an effect at all. During this time you can clear the condition as well. As previously posted, condition damage can be thought of as ‘potential damage’ over time. At least this is my current understanding, if I got this wrong please correct me.

lets not forget about the perplexity runes confusion spammers though wich can hardly be countered in classes with low condi remove thanks to how condi removal removes the one freaking skill that least harms you

and immobilize now that it stacks being immob for 20+ seconds on top of interupts knockdowns and stuns is just absurd

and you just pointed out why it is broken because the only way to counter condition duration food is with -40% condi duration food

Not a great idea to nerf food to get at the perplex runes that should just be deleted anyway lol

borrok.9267:

Rezzet.3614:

Medazolam.3058:

I see no problem with the food as is now, several ways to counter (runes, food, traits). Once you break down the math of the 40% increase in condition duration in terms of actual damage ticks, it isn’t OP at all IMO.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

Damage is determined per second, so the increase needs to be at least a second for anymore damage to be applied. The condition needs to ‘tick’ again. So for the people suggesting a nerf to 15 or even 20%, that means for the damage conditions, you need a base duration of 5 seconds for the food to even have an effect at all. During this time you can clear the condition as well. As previously posted, condition damage can be thought of as ‘potential damage’ over time. At least this is my current understanding, if I got this wrong please correct me.

lets not forget about the perplexity runes confusion spammers though wich can hardly be countered in classes with low condi remove thanks to how condi removal removes the one freaking skill that least harms you

and immobilize now that it stacks being immob for 20+ seconds on top of interupts knockdowns and stuns is just absurd

and you just pointed out why it is broken because the only way to counter condition duration food is with -40% condi duration food

Not a great idea to nerf food to get at the perplex runes that should just be deleted anyway lol

perplex runes only highlight the fact theres some conditions that were meant to stay with short condition duration was my point confusion is one of them getting slapped with 12-30s of confusion while masking it with bleed cripple immob daze stun burn poison chill makes poor condi cleanse classes hopeless as they ll remove everything but the confusion

If this is a complaint based on WvW, I have to scratch my head for two reasons.

Firstly, most of the damage dealt in WvW is power based. Conditions only really become a factor in small battles where cleanses arent being thrown out to 5 allies every few seconds.

Secondly, whether it is on my Necro, Thief, Guardian, Ele, or Warrior, I make it a point to cleanse conditions well before they run their full duration, so the extra 40% isn’t even noticed. Every profession(except maybe Mesmer) can trait for plenty of condition removal if they choose to. If you choose not to, then there you have it.

If you are strictly talking about the stat budget for that particular food being too high, then I could agree, but I just don’t see it as a big deal.

The lifesteal food pre nerf was much much more gamebreaking than this. Meh.

Stx.4857:

If this is a complaint based on WvW, I have to scratch my head for two reasons.

Firstly, most of the damage dealt in WvW is power based. Conditions only really become a factor in small battles where cleanses arent being thrown out to 5 allies every few seconds.

Secondly, whether it is on my Necro, Thief, Guardian, Ele, or Warrior, I make it a point to cleanse conditions well before they run their full duration, so the extra 40% isn’t even noticed. Every profession(except maybe Mesmer) can trait for plenty of condition removal if they choose to. If you choose not to, then there you have it.

If you are strictly talking about the stat budget for that particular food being too high, then I could agree, but I just don’t see it as a big deal.

The lifesteal food pre nerf was much much more gamebreaking than this. Meh.

Firstly, if part of the game is effecting the enjoyment of a group of people who play it, and changing it won’t effect the nature of the game mode, then why not at least consider it? Also, coordinated zergs that group-wipe conditions consistently are few and far between. If you’re a part of one, then I’m glad you found a large number of people who like to AoE support, but don’t assume that’s just how it is everywhere.

Secondly, I think you’re missing an important perspective. Imagine you are a condition-based class and you don’t run +40% condi duration. Your target is running -40%. They’re canceling almost all of your +duration potential with a food buff, unless you really go hard in the paint for the rune/gear stat durations. Even then it’s a lot closer. That’s a lot of damage potential you’ve geared for that they food-buffed out of the equation. In some cases, they don’t even have to bring condi-cleanse against a person who focused on condis because they’ve limited the potential of these abilities by that 40%. This isn’t just about damage condis, but all utilities condis as well.

If you run +40%, and your enemy doesn’t, then not having an appropriate amount of condi cleanse is an absolute death sentence. Extra seconds on even just immobilize/chil/fear, not to mention things like Weakness/Burning/Confusion, are very punishing without the appropriate tools.

It’s a game of extremes, and even though it mostly shows itself on smaller scale confrontations, I find it unfortunate that I don’t consider other types of food an option. My Powermancer uses +40% condi duration food because I need my chills/immobilizes/fears to last an appropriate amount of time. Against some classes, without it, I might as well not even use those abilities, because they’re turned to peanuts.

And this is just a food buff. Why would a food buff be so influential to any part of the game?

By that logic, 9k BS is effecting the enjoyment of the game, and so are hammer warriors. Delete classes pl0x. Your second point is true though.

borrok.9267:

By that logic, 9k BS is effecting the enjoyment of the game, and so are hammer warriors. Delete classes pl0x. Your second point is true though.

By that logic, losing is effecting enjoyment of the game, because everyone wants to win. Might as well close the servers and burn all copies of the source code, then nuke the server room from orbit.

Tuning a passive buff and discussing class mechanics are horses of two different colors. I don’t know why you can’t see that. In any case, the backstab damage isn’t even the issue with Thieves, and Hammer Warriors can be dodged and dealt with in small-scale engagements.

But we’re talking about passive food buffs that have a drastic effect on fights. Changing the prevalence of stealth/blind/backstab shenanigans is one thing. Tweaking a 40% to a 15% or whatever is something else entirely.

Cogbyrn.7283:

borrok.9267:

By that logic, 9k BS is effecting the enjoyment of the game, and so are hammer warriors. Delete classes pl0x. Your second point is true though.

By that logic, losing is effecting enjoyment of the game, because everyone wants to win. Might as well close the servers and burn all copies of the source code, then nuke the server room from orbit.

Tuning a passive buff and discussing class mechanics are horses of two different colors. I don’t know why you can’t see that. In any case, the backstab damage isn’t even the issue with Thieves, and Hammer Warriors can be dodged and dealt with in small-scale engagements.

But we’re talking about passive food buffs that have a drastic effect on fights. Changing the prevalence of stealth/blind/backstab shenanigans is one thing. Tweaking a 40% to a 15% or whatever is something else entirely.

From the perspective of a necro – Anyway, someone posted the math on how 40% effects conditions already So I’ll leave with this. When I played terror that 40% brought my fear from a 3/4 to a 1 in duration.

The thing is, you can’t maths PvP.

Crunching numbers if fine and all for PvE, but in PvP there are too many variables, target-uptime most notably, for maths to have any sort of meaning.

I hope this will still be addressed in the foreseeable future.

Get rid of the + and – condi foods altogether. Anyone with a functioning brain can see that a food effectively doubling or tripling a stat is completely OP, and the minus food is also OP against any type of build that has significant condi DPS without the using the + food. A pointless rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper, paper beats rock situation that adds nothing interesting to the game.

It’s also a borderline pay-to-way situation since -40, even the -36 food is pretty expensive, while the +40 20 min food is less than 2 silver each, and the +36 30 min version is even less.

To talk a little about power builds that are way over the top because of upwards of 120% critical damage and higher precision than sPvP, if the change to the new ferocity stat is still happening, it should be a stat with diminishing returns if anet is serious about evening out power builds in PvE and lowering the effectiveness of instagib type builds in WvW.

how did i miss this thread the first time around?

good problem statement in the OP.

ill be sure to link it.

I say condi duration should be capped at +20% but still allow a -40%. It is too much of a condi meta right now.

Easiest way to fix the problem with condi duration? Code CC to be unaffected by condition duration, and start giving players a form of defiance to prevent CC spam. Because I’m sorry, the ONLY condition I find annoying due to longer duration is CC, everything else is easily managed.

Agree with OP. 100 power added to a power/crit build is significantly less powerful than 40% added to Condition Duration on a condi build.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Easiest way to fix the problem with condi duration? Code CC to be unaffected by condition duration, and start giving players a form of defiance to prevent CC spam. Because I’m sorry, the ONLY condition I find annoying due to longer duration is CC, everything else is easily managed.

I agree. Fix all cripple/chill/immob durations to a static value, remove traits like dogged march and make +-food/runes only affect damaging conditions (bleed/poison/confusion/burning/etc).

I’m surprised ANET hasn’t reached out to brand names for endorsement deals…imagine the power Cheetos, Doritos, and a coke could give you

…Wait…they do in real life!

:-P

P.S. ANET…I want compensation if you pursue this idea

My problem with the state of conditions is that some classes can apply too many covering conditions, making removal ineffective. Conditions feel kind of generic with certain classes being able to easily access all of them.

I personally have no problem with condition duration as most people tend to pack a good amount of condition removal and I find it only punishes people who don’t take any removal at all.

I agree with the suggestion that CC conditions should have a static duration.