Guild Wars 2

Sarsbear.3469:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Rednik.3809:

Victory.2879:

Here’s a summary of the answers so far:

From the hammer wielders and press 1 autoattacking guardians, they see no problem with retal as they run around in a ball and have their own regeneration and healing going on so don’t really notice it, while tagging everything in sight with a weapon that does aoe damage and causes heals to trigger on the rest of their ball.

From anyone trying to damage the press 1 spammers by actually using skills as intended, retal is the most broken mechanic in the game.

“Number 1 spammers” are forced to always be in frontline, eating all melee, ranged and AOE damage, while skilled “killers of spammers” want to stay behind in safety, roll their faces on 1-2-3-4-5 and don’t care about stupid things like non-zerk gear, boon stripping
and backlash from retal? Oh, i see now.

Pretty much this…Retal might be OP in few scenarios for a few short bursts. (I enjoy popping group retal on an engie trying to flamethrow my group through a gate for instance).

For the most part retaliation (like I said before) punishes players who refuse to monitor their play. If you just wanna faceroll your keys and spam every skill trying to tag every mob while wearing DPS gear, expect to die from your playstyle. I can honestly say I have never been killed from retaliation or confusion for that matter. Mostly because as soon as I see said skills I back off my attacks until it is safe, or most of my builds are tanky enough to attack through the retaliation. (Confusion just depends on # of stacks)

The thing is I can keep retal up almost permanantly for my group. If I add another guild guardian the 2 of us definitely will. That does not include the group mates also knowing to leap/blast in light fields. You will have to back off indefinitely, and there are many groups out there that use the same mechanics.

You say you’ve never died to retal, and I’d like to change that. I think you should be able to spec a way so that retal truly punishes all people, not just flamethrower engineers or anyone with heavy AoE or fast attacks, just like eng/mes can spec for confusion and turn it into something very dangerous. But being based on power, the current retal is a little too powerful for people who aren’t specifically trying to make it better.

just get a necro and youre kittened. have fun blasting your lightfields while standing in a well or being spammed by conditions.

although i would agree, could be interesting to change the formula a little.
maybe something like basevalue*%missingHealth ? so you hit back harder the lower your hp? this could lower the damage of retaliation on impact, making heal+retal trains less effective.

covenn.7165:

timidobserver.7925:

Retal has already been nerfed enough. Stop running berserker if you are dying from it.

Full soldiers gear gives me 20-24k health depending on stacks/food.

1 meteor shower on a blob stack, an AoE I cant reasonable stop once its started, can take me from 24k health so low to the point I am forced to mist form to keep from dying from it.

Not use an ability I have that does reasonable damage in the exact situation it was designed for? I suppose I could drop staff, but it is pretty much the only thing a Ele has left to play the game for open world outside of a single gimmicky scepter build.

This. The issue is how it scales in my opinion. I have no issues with retal itself, I just think there should be a cap on how many times you can hit by retal per second.

Titan.3472:

Well whenever people fail in some situation they are not going to analyse how they can do to improve their gameplay build and organisation they will just ask for some nerf. Retaliation could be less efficient BUT it remains the fact you need to learn to play better mitigate damages and adapt your build on the current meta or you are only dead meat. And I don’t play guardian at all nor CC warrior…

I play my ele extremely well with a weapon set that is generally seen as free points to most. I know how to position myself, use my range, my cc, and my defensives to stay alive. 80% of the damage I take in WvW fights isn’t due to people hitting me. It is due to me hitting people and retaliation wrecking me.

In order for me to play my class effectively and utilize my abilities, I have to hit multiple targets. Not only that, I have to hit them in a situation where I can be sure they won’t move out of the circles before my damage pulses, otherwise I have a wasted ability and cooldown. My single target dps with this weapon is horrible (which i cant change in combat due to class design) and all my abilities pretty much are AoE. In order to play my class the way it was designed I am forced to hit multiple targets in optimal situation.

With that said, I my hard counter to retaliation is mist form as the only other viable counter is not playing my class/weapon effectively. It works just fine as a counter, though it sucks to waste my best defensive ability on something passive like retaliation killing me. Unfortunately my cool down is long on it, and retaliation can simply be spam reapplied.

Niim.9260:

This. The issue is how it scales in my opinion. I have no issues with retal itself, I just think there should be a cap on how many times you can hit by retal per second.

Agreed and a reasonable solution.

Honestly, I would be ok with being hit by it 3-5x per second, because at least it is manageable. What I can’t manage is having a channel AoE like meteor shower ticking, lava font ticking, and fireball or something hitting all at the same time causing me to take, literally no joke, like 30+ ticks in a second.

Anyways, enough of that. Mist form is my counter to being able to try and deblob a zerg stacking retaliation nonstop and it works for the most part. It is just kind of silly.

covenn.7165:

Titan.3472:

Well whenever people fail in some situation they are not going to analyse how they can do to improve their gameplay build and organisation they will just ask for some nerf. Retaliation could be less efficient BUT it remains the fact you need to learn to play better mitigate damages and adapt your build on the current meta or you are only dead meat. And I don’t play guardian at all nor CC warrior…

I play my ele extremely well with a weapon set that is generally seen as free points to most. I know how to position myself, use my range, my cc, and my defensives to stay alive. 80% of the damage I take in WvW fights isn’t due to people hitting me. It is due to me hitting people and retaliation wrecking me.

In order for me to play my class effectively and utilize my abilities, I have to hit multiple targets. Not only that, I have to hit them in a situation where I can be sure they won’t move out of the circles before my damage pulses, otherwise I have a wasted ability and cooldown. My single target dps with this weapon is horrible (which i cant change in combat due to class design) and all my abilities pretty much are AoE. In order to play my class the way it was designed I am forced to hit multiple targets in optimal situation.

With that said, I my hard counter to retaliation is mist form as the only other viable counter is not playing my class/weapon effectively. It works just fine as a counter, though it sucks to waste my best defensive ability on something passive like retaliation killing me. Unfortunately my cool down is long on it, and retaliation can simply be spam reapplied.

Just think of it as penance for all the free kills/xp/loots you have been getting from all that AoE tagging, while the rest of us are well-behind you in all of the above due to limited AoE and mainly single target attacks.

:P

King Amadaeus.8619:

If retaliation is killing you with a 5-man AoE cap then…its a build/gear/l2p

I am sorry, not even saying that as a cop-out either…There have been times when it’kitten me really kitten a mesmer or engi, but never died from it.

Sorry, but you do not seem to have an understanding of some of the game mechanics and how different abilities work on different classes.

1. Not all abilities are AoE capped.

2. Some abilities pulse damage or channel multiple ticks FnF.

3. Some abilities have lead time.

Add in all the above on a few classes that have no choice but to use those sort of abilities, and you quickly get into situations where people in full PTV can literally kill themselves on retail in a second or two because they are getting hit with dozens of ticks per second.

King Amadaeus.8619:

Just think of it as penance for all the free kills/xp/loots you have been getting from all that AoE tagging, while the rest of us are well-behind you in all of the above due to limited AoE and mainly single target attacks.

:P

Nothing I get is ‘free’. If I wanted free kills, I would play my thief and gank people or my necro if I wanted to tag spam. Unfortunately both those classes (and my guardian) bore me to death.

covenn.7165:

King Amadaeus.8619:

If retaliation is killing you with a 5-man AoE cap then…its a build/gear/l2p

I am sorry, not even saying that as a cop-out either…There have been times when it’kitten me really kitten a mesmer or engi, but never died from it.

Sorry, but you do not seem to have an understanding of some of the game mechanics and how different abilities work on different classes.

1. Not all abilities are AoE capped.

2. Some abilities pulse damage or channel multiple ticks FnF.

3. Some abilities have lead time.

Add in all the above on a few classes that have no choice but to use those sort of abilities, and you quickly get into situations where people in full PTV can literally kill themselves on retail in a second or two because they are getting hit with dozens of ticks per second.

Umm I have 1 of every type of class this game makes to my knowledge…So I am well-versed, the problem you are having is one of reading comprehension.

Because you think that I misunderstood a mechanic, while I was really saying that I am fully OK with people “fully killing themselves”. Just like I was fully OK with it in GW1 when bads killed themselves with SS and Backfire on them.

Also there is something to be said about the fact that if you personally cast a skill on a large group, while knowing full well it will ignore the AoE-cap….Well I guess it should be a gamble for you if you live or die. You think it would be balanced if you could just sit behind walls all day and spam said skills with no chance of penalty?

Rednik.3809:

while skilled “killers of spammers” want to stay behind in safety, roll their faces on 1-2-3-4-5 and don’t care about stupid things like non-zerk gear, boon stripping
and backlash from retal? Oh, i see now.

Hey now! The eles out there do this….

(well function keys default for attune swap.. but mine is alt)
Alt1 – 1-2-3-4-5
Alt2 – 1-2-3-4-5
Alt3 – 1-2-3-4-5
Alt4 – 1-2-3-4-5

Let me give a little reality…. we hit a blob.

Air 5 – Alt 1 – Fire 2 – (Fire 1 auto) – Fire 5

My opening CC and best way to guarantee I can maximize damage / damage procs as I have them frozen in the circles. I can’t stop lava font pulses after I drop it or meteor shower after the channel starts (can shorten it some though).

Here is what happens if they have retal. My health bar goes from 20-24k down to 3k in the time it takes me to both see the eleventybillion retal pulses and react by pressing the ‘R’ button (my bind for mist form). Why does this happen? A combination of my abilities landing close to the same time and abilities hitting far more than 5 targets each. Heh

I mean sure, I suppose I could open up with static, switch over to earth, drop #2 and watch as they come out of static and move away before eruption fires an eternity later. Maybe I could just stay in air and hit 3 targets for 800-1500 damage every second (depending if I crit or not), stay in fire and auto attack for 1500 on 5 targets, or better …switch to water and spam #1 and hit one person for 300 since I am in PTV. :p Oh I guess I can just cycle through all of my CC in each attune and spam that on them all at once :p

King Amadaeus.8619:

Also there is something to be said about the fact that if you personally cast a skill on a large group, while knowing full well it will ignore the AoE-cap….Well I guess it should be a gamble for you if you live or die. You think it would be balanced if you could just sit behind walls all day and spam said skills with no chance of penalty?

I don’t sit behind walls, sorry. If that is your style of game play, more power to you. I won’t hold it against you.

You are absolutely right though, I shouldn’t use the abilities I have in the situation they are designed for in favor of doing….. ? That still leaves the other abilities and the inherent danger they cause from retal by how they work. Should I not use those either?

Sarcasm aside, I do have a counter. It is mist form. The other counter is to not use my staff effectively in the exact situation it was designed for. Sorry, but I simply won’t do that.

covenn.7165:

Rednik.3809:

while skilled “killers of spammers” want to stay behind in safety, roll their faces on 1-2-3-4-5 and don’t care about stupid things like non-zerk gear, boon stripping
and backlash from retal? Oh, i see now.

Hey now! The eles out there do this….

(well function keys default for attune swap.. but mine is alt)
Alt1 – 1-2-3-4-5
Alt2 – 1-2-3-4-5
Alt3 – 1-2-3-4-5
Alt4 – 1-2-3-4-5

Let me give a little reality…. we hit a blob.

Air 5 – Alt 1 – Fire 2 – (Fire 1 auto) – Fire 5

My opening CC and best way to guarantee I can maximize damage / damage procs as I have them frozen in the circles. I can’t stop lava font pulses after I drop it or meteor shower after the channel starts (can shorten it some though).

Here is what happens if they have retal. My health bar goes from 20-24k down to 3k in the time it takes me to both see the eleventybillion retal pulses and react by pressing the ‘R’ button (my bind for mist form). Why does this happen? A combination of my abilities landing close to the same time and abilities hitting far more than 5 targets each. Heh

I mean sure, I suppose I could open up with static, switch over to earth, drop #2 and watch as they come out of static and move away before eruption fires an eternity later. Maybe I could just stay in air and hit 3 targets for 800-1500 damage every second (depending if I crit or not), stay in fire and auto attack for 1500 on 5 targets, or better …switch to water and spam #1 and hit one person for 300 since I am in PTV. :p Oh I guess I can just cycle through all of my CC in each attune and spam that on them all at once :p

Probably a moot point to someone like you, but you realize in the large-scale type fights you seem to be referencing that DPS is not that useful?

What I mean to say is that you seem to be calling out numbers as if to say that you would be doing your team a disservice to only due “x” amount of damage. While realistically there is plenty of damage to go around in these fights just from the shear number of players involved.

I mean really DPS is more important in smaller groups….I mean why do you think everyone makes the “press 1” joke about zerg fights, sure some of it is skill lag related, but a lot of it is because it is literally all you need to do 80% of the time.

Not saying that using your skills is bad in large fights at all, just saying that if you are weighing your options on if your team needs 1500 or 3500 from you in a large scale fight, you might want to re-think that.

I mean don’t get me wrong we all love seeing those crazy large numbers, but it is just fluff in a 25v25 fight. Personally I and most people I fight with want our eles on CC duty and waterfield duty first and foremost.

I am open to one of the following:

1. Add about 9k health to my pool to put me on par with necros.

2. Cap the amount of retal pulses you can take per second to 5.

3. Redesign my class.

:)

King Amadaeus.8619:

Probably a moot point to someone like you, but you realize in the large-scale type fights you seem to be referencing that DPS is not that useful?

What do you mean ‘someone like you’ ? You have a problem with asuras?

Jokes aside, you need a finer understanding of how the elementalist class is/has to be played. I am not trying to be disrespectful by telling you that, but you are way off base with some of your responses.

Anyways, we are constantly fighting 20ish vs massive blob as a guild. In order for us to win in those situations (which we actively seek out), each and every one of us has to play effectively. My CC has to be on point, my damage focused, and water fields timely. DPS is vastly more useful in this situation than you are making it out to be.

Anyways… add in how my class mechanics and abilities demand that it be played… then and only then can you understand what I am saying to you. There seems to be a rather large disconnect here.

King Amadaeus.8619:

Probably a moot point to someone like you, but you realize in the large-scale type fights you seem to be referencing that DPS is not that useful?

Nothing in his posts indicates he is fighting even numbers to the point that DPS wouldn’t matter. We fight 5 vs 25 all the time, DPS matters.

Retal implementation is just another zerg friendly, no coordination required, face-roll play style that makes this game the boring PVT hammer train that it is.

King Amadaeus.8619:

Not saying that using your skills is bad in large fights at all, just saying that if you are weighing your options on if your team needs 1500 or 3500 from you in a large scale fight, you might want to re-think that.

I mean don’t get me wrong we all love seeing those crazy large numbers, but it is just fluff in a 25v25 fight. Personally I and most people I fight with want our eles on CC duty and waterfield duty first and foremost.

Going to comment on at least on this part :

Understand first how the ele class has to be played. When my support abilities and/or attunements are on cool down, the only thing I can do is damage. You seem to be not connecting that very well with what I am trying to tell you.

So yeah, its an easy thing to ‘say’ you want ele’s on water field duty and cc duty first and foremost when you clearly don’t understand the class. Simple example, an ele can’t simply sit in water to wait for a water field call nor can an ele simply avoid switching to water in order to keep it off of cool down because we might need to cleanse or heal ourselves to stay alive.

Hey, did you know I can spam weakness, cripple, or chill on a blob (my choice on onset) with things like meteor shower? Did you know my one viable water field is on a really long cool down (the other is tiny and really short, useable but not nearly as viable)? Really, I think this is a pointless discussion because you really don’t know the finer points of the class.

Anyways, i have mist form to counter.

Niim.9260:

Nothing in his posts indicates he is fighting even numbers to the point that DPS wouldn’t matter. We fight 5 vs 25 all the time, DPS matters.

Retal implementation is just another zerg friendly, no coordination required, face-roll play style that makes this game the boring PVT hammer train that it is.

Agreed on the last part.

Regarding the first part, I don’t do havoc much any more and generally don’t run staff when I do because i find it isn’t optimal for me. Regardless, you are still 100% correct.

Niim.9260:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Probably a moot point to someone like you, but you realize in the large-scale type fights you seem to be referencing that DPS is not that useful?

Nothing in his posts indicates he is fighting even numbers to the point that DPS wouldn’t matter. We fight 5 vs 25 all the time, DPS matters.

Retal implementation is just another zerg friendly, no coordination required, face-roll play style that makes this game the boring PVT hammer train that it is.

At which point did you not see me say that DPS is more important the smaller the group. I said in 25v25 it has little significance. I also said it is risk v reward. He plays a class than can do large amounts of AoE damage, retaliation apparently keeps him in check (and nearly kills him), which to me is more balanced than if he could just blast right through it with no regard.

Retaliation to me is something that is anti zerg friendly just as much as zerg friendly…The fact that it punishes people from spamming skills on huge groups of people is the real issue here apparently. I mean we are 1-year in and retal has already been nerfed and it is still a mechanic issue? Doubtful. But think what you want.

Go back and look at the bolded part of your quote, because you realize the “he/him” in question is a staff-ele that is irritated that he cant spam skills on large amounts of people without the risk of dying from retaliation.

King Amadaeus.8619:

I mean we are 1-year in and retal has already been nerfed and it is still a mechanic issue? Doubtful. But think what you want.

What does time since release and the fact that it received a nerf have to do with if it is still poorly implemented mechanic?

Do we work around it? Sure, every night, but that does not change that we are forced to limit our damage output, some times give up fight momentum, etc because of a zerg friendly, face-roll mechanic that contributes to the stale zergball meta.

covenn.7165:

Niim.9260:

Nothing in his posts indicates he is fighting even numbers to the point that DPS wouldn’t matter. We fight 5 vs 25 all the time, DPS matters.

Retal implementation is just another zerg friendly, no coordination required, face-roll play style that makes this game the boring PVT hammer train that it is.

Agreed on the last part.

Regarding the first part, I don’t do havoc much any more and generally don’t run staff when I do because i find it isn’t optimal for me. Regardless, you are still 100% correct.

Sorry, I meant ‘we’ as in the havoc squad I run with. The experience with aoe damage on our ele is the same as what you describe to the point that we often just do not bother any more, to much setup work to counter a silly mechanic. In my opinion people that call for an AoE cap increase without talking about Retal are just out of touch with how the game works.

1. Give guardians more mobility

2. Give guardians better range options

3. Give Guardians more health pool

4. Give Guardians zero to very little attacking animations like every one else

5. Give Guardians Condition resist in toughness trait line

Than nerf our retalition.

Niim.9260:

Sure, every night, but that does not change that we are forced to limit our damage output, some times give up fight momentum, etc

So a skill that is meant to make you temper your skill usage is making you do that and you want it nerfed?

I believe others might say working as intended, is it OP? Well it has been nerfed once, I suppose it could be again.

In other news, you people would have never made it in GW1, there were a few skills that locked down spammers. Much more so than just confusion or retaliation.

And people played with them for years.

King Amadaeus.8619:

Rednik.3809:

Victory.2879:

Here’s a summary of the answers so far:

From the hammer wielders and press 1 autoattacking guardians, they see no problem with retal as they run around in a ball and have their own regeneration and healing going on so don’t really notice it, while tagging everything in sight with a weapon that does aoe damage and causes heals to trigger on the rest of their ball.

From anyone trying to damage the press 1 spammers by actually using skills as intended, retal is the most broken mechanic in the game.

“Number 1 spammers” are forced to always be in frontline, eating all melee, ranged and AOE damage, while skilled “killers of spammers” want to stay behind in safety, roll their faces on 1-2-3-4-5 and don’t care about stupid things like non-zerk gear, boon stripping
and backlash from retal? Oh, i see now.

Pretty much this…Retal might be OP in few scenarios for a few short bursts. (I enjoy popping group retal on an engie trying to flamethrow my group through a gate for instance).

For the most part retaliation (like I said before) punishes players who refuse to monitor their play. If you just wanna faceroll your keys and spam every skill trying to tag every mob while wearing DPS gear, expect to die from your playstyle. I can honestly say I have never been killed from retaliation or confusion for that matter. Mostly because as soon as I see said skills I back off my attacks until it is safe, or most of my builds are tanky enough to attack through the retaliation. (Confusion just depends on # of stacks)

It needs to be fixed for those situations though. At the worst it should be capped at the damage a player can receive from max stacks of confusion per attack. Right now it’s not hard to take MORE than that (esp on eng/ele). That’s pretty bullkitten. Seriously go try shooting a single piercing pistol shot, grenade toss or meteor shower into a crowd then come back and tell me that it’s fine… inb4 one attack is “spam” and you really should be punished that severely for it.

I see it from both sides (my guard has high retal uptime)… and some balancing needs to be done specifically for WvW since light fields are so easy to come by as are blast finishers. It’s harder to NOT get retal in a group than to get it… but boon stripping is quite hard to come by. You’ll see a lot of people just saying please don’t nerf my guard (or whatever class they are on that’s using retal) but that doesn’t mean some balance fixes aren’t justified.

King Amadaeus.8619:

So a skill that is meant to make you temper your skill usage is making you do that and you want it nerfed?

I believe others might say working as intended, is it OP? Well it has been nerfed once, I suppose it could be again.

Retal promotes face rolling zergballs, AoE damage does not. You are countering what already takes a good bit of setup, like ele AoE, with a faceroll use of abilities. Retal makes for boring meta and thus boring WvW.

Niim.9260:

King Amadaeus.8619:

So a skill that is meant to make you temper your skill usage is making you do that and you want it nerfed?

I believe others might say working as intended, is it OP? Well it has been nerfed once, I suppose it could be again.

Retal promotes face rolling zergballs, AoE damage does not. You are countering what already takes a good bit of setup, like ele AoE, with a faceroll use of abilities. Retal makes for boring meta and thus boring WvW.

AoE sure does encourage faceroll zergballs. Heard of the 5-man AoE limit?

Get in a group of 6 or larger, and play the odds.

Retaliation needs to be hard capped and it has no business being useful outside of 1 v 1.

It’s cheesy as hell.

Thrumdi.9216:

AoE sure does encourage faceroll zergballs. Heard of the 5-man AoE limit?

Get in a group of 6 or larger, and play the odds.

You got that a little wrong… it isn’t the AoE promoting it. It is the limit cap on most AoE abilities. If most AoE wasn’t target limited, people would be spreading out really quickly, heh.

Skyllar.3562:

theres an easy counter to retaliaton, called WELL OF CORRUPTION. Retaliation is the first boon it will remove since its following a priority list. so stop complaining about retaliation and get some coordination with your teammates, large scale fights aren’t about soloheroes anyways…

edit: the whole priority list can be found here http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1fyebd/boon_removal_priority/
if some1 wanted to know

not everyone runs necro

covenn.7165:

You got that a little wrong… it isn’t the AoE promoting it. It is the limit cap on most AoE abilities. If most AoE wasn’t target limited, people would be spreading out really quickly, heh.

And how melee should survive in this situation then? We don’t have 1mil HP/teleports/unlimited invulnerability to go through heavy aoe without 5-man limit. Try to walk in the choke under 10 sup arrowcart fire and you will understand what i am talking about.

Retaliation is probably one of the must frustrating things about WvW for me. A single barrage on my ranger or symbols and whirling wrath on my guardian can easily trigger 45+ ticks of retaliation, dealing over 9,000 damage just for attacking.

Something needs to be done about this. I shouldn’t be forced to back off and heal just because I attacked a zerg for a few seconds, even if none of them have attacked me yet.

Once i instantly died after burning speed stacked on the zerg which was pretty desperate.

Dont go glasscanon to wvw.

Dont go with pve builds to wvw. any class must be tanky in zergs. Zerg win in coordination, positioning and buff/debuff timing and choosing it in the right time. Not in glass canon spam damage smashing all your keys.

Stay and do what your commander (good commander) say to do, move and attack as group.

Dont smash the keyboard for attack like in pve content, you are not facing AI, pay attention, a good enemy is paying attention what you or your group is doing during combat.

urieldhynne.2743:

Dont go glasscanon to wvw.

I guess you didnt read and/or don’t realize that in full PTV gear some classes, due to the very mechanics of playing their class, can get kitten near close to isnta gibbed by retaliation by simply playing the class the way it was designed for the situation at hand.

Judging by your response, that has to be the case right? Just a lack of understanding.

Rezzet.3614:

Skyllar.3562:

theres an easy counter to retaliaton, called WELL OF CORRUPTION. Retaliation is the first boon it will remove since its following a priority list. so stop complaining about retaliation and get some coordination with your teammates, large scale fights aren’t about soloheroes anyways…

edit: the whole priority list can be found here http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1fyebd/boon_removal_priority/
if some1 wanted to know

not everyone runs necro

thats why i wrote “get some coordination with your teammates” and the solohero thingy^^

retaliation is strong, yes, but there are ways to deal with it.
My guildies used to run zerker ele’s, (bad word filter block)hitting for 7-8k per meteor, and somehow managed to survive. it IS possible. how? coordination! if i would be able to deal (4k*8+7k*16)*5=720k dmg with A SINGLE SPELL, i would happily take that retaldmg. yes, you’ll never that much cuz of meteors missing or only hitting 2-3 ppl, but then you’ll receive less retal dmg anyways.

if you want to nerf retal dmg, nerf aoe dmg too, its way over the top in this game, while, considering most of it has a high range, staying completly save doing so. only real problems are thiefs and retaliation, with the first 1 rarely really farming ranges but spamming shortbowskills into the enemy meleeblob to tag more ppl.

As a guardian from headstart, I would gladly trade retalition for more HP, better condition removal, better range weapons, and better mobility.

I can careless about retalition tbh, we only use it for stability, but sure take it away from us. Just give us access to the issues above.

Another option is to simply scale Retaliation as a percentage of the attack damage, up to a cap of the current amount.

Kurieg.4158:

Another option is to simply scale Retaliation as a percentage of the attack damage, up to a cap of the current amount.

It is not capped at a current amount, it is based off the power rating of the guardian who uses it.

Just nerf it, or take it away, like I said we only mainly use it for stability. Nerf it but give guardians more mobility, better range options, better condition removal, more HP. We will glady trade retalition for those things.

Ya, that’s what I mean. Cap indicates the % of damage applied would cap out at the amount Retaliation currently does to all attacks, which, as you indicate, scales with Power. In other words, a big crit attack would hit cap, applying the same amount of damage it currently does (or perhaps even raise that cap), but a horde of tiny pinpricks would not hit cap individually (but total amount could).

The only change I would like to see done to retaliation is make it do what it reads.

Reflect damage back to the target. It should reflect %100 of the damage back to the target having the player with retal take 0 damage.

Bailey.6892:

The only change I would like to see done to retaliation is make it do what it reads.

Reflect damage back to the target. It should reflect %100 of the damage back to the target having the player with retal take 0 damage.

This…it has said that since headstart, yet it has some crazy formula to deal damage ack to the attacker.

In WvW, we dont use it for damage, its meaningless damage in zergs, what we use it for is stability. If your tossing nades in a zerg and picking your nose at the same time well expect to get hit back with it. But if Engi’s and Rangers want it to change, thats fine, give guardians ability to bunker like bunker engi or spirit ranger. Give gaurdians ability to regen like a ranger, or condi removal like an engi.

Littlefeather.8623:

Bailey.6892:

The only change I would like to see done to retaliation is make it do what it reads.

Reflect damage back to the target. It should reflect %100 of the damage back to the target having the player with retal take 0 damage.

This…it has said that since headstart, yet it has some crazy formula to deal damage ack to the attacker.

In WvW, we dont use it for damage, its meaningless damage in zergs, what we use it for is stability. If your tossing nades in a zerg and picking your nose at the same time well expect to get hit back with it. But if Engi’s and Rangers want it to change, thats fine, give guardians ability to bunker like bunker engi or spirit ranger. Give gaurdians ability to regen like a ranger, or condi removal like an engi.

^Has obviously never plaid an eng. One piercing pistol shot can down you on eng… because of how it works. Every time it hits a person it creates a small aoe “pop”. These “pops” can hit 5 people… that turns into MASSIVE retal damage in a group. One nade toss can hit up to 15 people… barrage on ranger or meteor on ele =‘s suicide. Retal can easily do more than a full stack of confusion “meaningless” damage my rear… that’s straight up broken.

Non-Aoe retal is fine though… it’s just that there are so many ways to give off aoe retal. Like I said before, it’s harder to NOT get retal in a group fight than it is to get it.

All that together = problem.

As some one that has a guard as well as an Eng I can tell you from both POV’s that it needs adjustment… and guard needs a longbow or something’ as well… although they did help scepter’s projectile speed a bit and it is the top dps ranged weapon in the game… when it hits : /

ITT: Engineers and Elementalists complaining about dropping AoEs on 10+ people at a time and, for some reason, are surprised to find themselves dying to a mechanic meant to discourage stupid plays.

Stop dropping your AoEs on zergs and start placing them on smaller groups of people. Learn to play, stop complaining.

As a guardian (Believe it or not, we can get hit with retaliation just as hard as anyone else thanks to our wide range of PBAoE attacks) who does zerg busting a lot and is constantly jumping into stacked balls of players. I don’t jump in and start spamming my PBAoEs, no, I auto attack until the group breaks up. I then find a smaller portion of players and use my PBAoE on them.

So with Great Sword: Jump in using #3 > Drop Symbol (little to no need to worry about retaliation when it comes to symbols, since they pulse and only it five players at a time) > #1 for a few seconds > Group splits up > Hit #5 and pull some people together > Hit #2 and deal a nice amount of damage on up to five people without having to worry much about retaliation.

If I had simply jumped in and started spinning with #2 (Whirling Wrath) I would have died immediately because of retaliation. I have done this multiple times though I learned my lesson and moved on.

Play smart, stop complaining.

(Edit) Edits have been made.

In addition to this, it’s not very hard to test groups who might have retaliation (If you’re too lazy to check the boons of enemy players). Things like auto attacking with your pistol (Engi) or staff auto attack with fire attunement (Eli). Both explode and cause a small amount of AoE damage, however are not continuous. As a Guardian, I test these waters with symbols which pulse, as stated, and allow me to see if those I am about to spam a PBAoE are decced out with retaliation.

Syktek.7912:

ITT: Engineers and Elementalists complaining about dropping AoEs on 10+ people at a time and, for some reason, are surprised to find themselves dying to a mechanic meant to discourage stupid plays.

Stop dropping your AoEs on zergs and start placing them on smaller groups of people. Learn to play, stop complaining.

As a guardian (Believe it or not, we can get hit with retaliation just as hard as anyone else thanks to our wide range of PBAoE attacks) who does zerg busting a lot and is constantly jumping into stacked balls of players. I don’t jump in and start spamming my PBAoEs, no, I auto attack until the group breaks up. I then find a smaller portion of players and use my PBAoE on them.

So with Great Sword: Jump in using #3 > Drop Symbol (little to no need to worry about retaliation when it comes to symbols, since they pulse and only it five players at a time) > #1 for a few seconds > Group splits up > Hit #5 and pull some people together > Hit #2 and deal a nice amount of damage on up to five people without having to worry much about retaliation.

If I had simply jumped in and started spinning with #2 (Whirling Wrath) I would have died immediately because of retaliation. I have done this multiple times though I learned my lesson and moved on.

Play smart, stop complaining.

(Edit) Edits have been made.

In addition to this, it’s not very hard to test groups who might have retaliation (If you’re too lazy to check the boons of enemy players). Things like auto attacking with your pistol (Engi) or staff auto attack with fire attunement (Eli). Both explode and cause a small amount of AoE damage, however are not continuous. As a Guardian, I test these waters with symbols which pulse, as stated, and allow me to see if those I am about to spam a PBAoE are decced out with retaliation.

One or two pistol auto attack =‘s “stupid play” and eng should be downed for that?… yet multiple attacks from a guard (not just auto) isn’t and they shouldn’t be downed for it… and this is just due to playing smart and not a balance issue? “Testing” with a pistol on eng can take off most of the eng’s hp in a singe shot btw (because of the mechanics of the pistols)… so… I 100% disagree. This just seems like another it’s ok for my class it’s… so it’s fine for everyone type of thread without knowing the other classes.

Aberrant.6749:

Syktek.7912:

ITT: Engineers and Elementalists complaining about dropping AoEs on 10+ people at a time and, for some reason, are surprised to find themselves dying to a mechanic meant to discourage stupid plays.

Stop dropping your AoEs on zergs and start placing them on smaller groups of people. Learn to play, stop complaining.

As a guardian (Believe it or not, we can get hit with retaliation just as hard as anyone else thanks to our wide range of PBAoE attacks) who does zerg busting a lot and is constantly jumping into stacked balls of players. I don’t jump in and start spamming my PBAoEs, no, I auto attack until the group breaks up. I then find a smaller portion of players and use my PBAoE on them.

So with Great Sword: Jump in using #3 > Drop Symbol (little to no need to worry about retaliation when it comes to symbols, since they pulse and only it five players at a time) > #1 for a few seconds > Group splits up > Hit #5 and pull some people together > Hit #2 and deal a nice amount of damage on up to five people without having to worry much about retaliation.

If I had simply jumped in and started spinning with #2 (Whirling Wrath) I would have died immediately because of retaliation. I have done this multiple times though I learned my lesson and moved on.

Play smart, stop complaining.

(Edit) Edits have been made.

In addition to this, it’s not very hard to test groups who might have retaliation (If you’re too lazy to check the boons of enemy players). Things like auto attacking with your pistol (Engi) or staff auto attack with fire attunement (Eli). Both explode and cause a small amount of AoE damage, however are not continuous. As a Guardian, I test these waters with symbols which pulse, as stated, and allow me to see if those I am about to spam a PBAoE are decced out with retaliation.

One or two pistol auto attack =‘s “stupid play” and eng should be downed for that?… yet multiple attacks from a guard (not just auto) isn’t and they shouldn’t be downed for it… and this is just due to playing smart and not a balance issue? “Testing” with a pistol on eng can take off most of the eng’s hp in a singe shot btw (because of the mechanics of the pistols)… so… I 100% disagree. This just seems like another it’s ok for my class it’s… so it’s fine for everyone type of thread without knowing the other classes.

As someone who played around with an engineer in WvW before I had no issue with retaliation while shooting into zergs with a pistol. This was on an upscale too. So maybe your build just sucks? If you’re running around with a low health build on an engineer you deserve to die.

Syktek.7912:

Aberrant.6749:

Syktek.7912:

ITT: Engineers and Elementalists complaining about dropping AoEs on 10+ people at a time and, for some reason, are surprised to find themselves dying to a mechanic meant to discourage stupid plays.

Stop dropping your AoEs on zergs and start placing them on smaller groups of people. Learn to play, stop complaining.

As a guardian (Believe it or not, we can get hit with retaliation just as hard as anyone else thanks to our wide range of PBAoE attacks) who does zerg busting a lot and is constantly jumping into stacked balls of players. I don’t jump in and start spamming my PBAoEs, no, I auto attack until the group breaks up. I then find a smaller portion of players and use my PBAoE on them.

So with Great Sword: Jump in using #3 > Drop Symbol (little to no need to worry about retaliation when it comes to symbols, since they pulse and only it five players at a time) > #1 for a few seconds > Group splits up > Hit #5 and pull some people together > Hit #2 and deal a nice amount of damage on up to five people without having to worry much about retaliation.

If I had simply jumped in and started spinning with #2 (Whirling Wrath) I would have died immediately because of retaliation. I have done this multiple times though I learned my lesson and moved on.

Play smart, stop complaining.

(Edit) Edits have been made.

In addition to this, it’s not very hard to test groups who might have retaliation (If you’re too lazy to check the boons of enemy players). Things like auto attacking with your pistol (Engi) or staff auto attack with fire attunement (Eli). Both explode and cause a small amount of AoE damage, however are not continuous. As a Guardian, I test these waters with symbols which pulse, as stated, and allow me to see if those I am about to spam a PBAoE are decced out with retaliation.

One or two pistol auto attack =‘s “stupid play” and eng should be downed for that?… yet multiple attacks from a guard (not just auto) isn’t and they shouldn’t be downed for it… and this is just due to playing smart and not a balance issue? “Testing” with a pistol on eng can take off most of the eng’s hp in a singe shot btw (because of the mechanics of the pistols)… so… I 100% disagree. This just seems like another it’s ok for my class it’s… so it’s fine for everyone type of thread without knowing the other classes.

As someone who played around with an engineer in WvW before I had no issue with retaliation while shooting into zergs with a pistol. This was on an upscale too. So maybe your build just sucks? If you’re running around with a low health build on an engineer you deserve to die.

Nah, I just know the mechanics and what happens if you use piercing pistols (read my previous post in this thread if you need help with that). It just helps illustrate what’s wrong with retal atm. It doesn’t have any sort of damage cap. I’m all for it punishing players (just like confusion) but it needs a cap on how much a player can take (like confusion does).

If it returned a percentage of the damage delt it would actually help guards… it would balance out things like backstabs vs retal (which my thief doesn’t even care about).

In some cases it’s OP in others it’s UP… hence it being unbalanced.

Like I said before… you obviously don’t know the classes that retal disproportionately damages and thus think it’s ok.

Aberrant.6749:

One or two pistol auto attack =‘s “stupid play” and eng should be downed for that?… yet multiple attacks from a guard (not just auto) isn’t and they shouldn’t be downed for it… and this is just due to playing smart and not a balance issue? “Testing” with a pistol on eng can take off most of the eng’s hp in a singe shot btw (because of the mechanics of the pistols)… so… I 100% disagree. This just seems like another it’s ok for my class it’s… so it’s fine for everyone type of thread without knowing the other classes.

Why you not asking for a change in autoattack and other bugged abilities then, instead of asking to remove whole mechanic from game?

Rednik.3809:

Aberrant.6749:

One or two pistol auto attack =‘s “stupid play” and eng should be downed for that?… yet multiple attacks from a guard (not just auto) isn’t and they shouldn’t be downed for it… and this is just due to playing smart and not a balance issue? “Testing” with a pistol on eng can take off most of the eng’s hp in a singe shot btw (because of the mechanics of the pistols)… so… I 100% disagree. This just seems like another it’s ok for my class it’s… so it’s fine for everyone type of thread without knowing the other classes.

Why you not asking for a change in autoattack and other bugged abilities then, instead of asking to remove whole mechanic from game?

I never asked to remove retal from the game… just that it needs tweaking to be more balanced. A boon that deals damage when you’re struck is fine… it’s just how it’s implemented is the problem.

It would take them a LOT more work to change all of the attacks to balance for retal Vs. balance retal for all of the various attacks.

Aberrant.6749:

Syktek.7912:

Aberrant.6749:

Syktek.7912:

ITT: Engineers and Elementalists complaining about dropping AoEs on 10+ people at a time and, for some reason, are surprised to find themselves dying to a mechanic meant to discourage stupid plays.

Stop dropping your AoEs on zergs and start placing them on smaller groups of people. Learn to play, stop complaining.

As a guardian (Believe it or not, we can get hit with retaliation just as hard as anyone else thanks to our wide range of PBAoE attacks) who does zerg busting a lot and is constantly jumping into stacked balls of players. I don’t jump in and start spamming my PBAoEs, no, I auto attack until the group breaks up. I then find a smaller portion of players and use my PBAoE on them.

So with Great Sword: Jump in using #3 > Drop Symbol (little to no need to worry about retaliation when it comes to symbols, since they pulse and only it five players at a time) > #1 for a few seconds > Group splits up > Hit #5 and pull some people together > Hit #2 and deal a nice amount of damage on up to five people without having to worry much about retaliation.

If I had simply jumped in and started spinning with #2 (Whirling Wrath) I would have died immediately because of retaliation. I have done this multiple times though I learned my lesson and moved on.

Play smart, stop complaining.

(Edit) Edits have been made.

In addition to this, it’s not very hard to test groups who might have retaliation (If you’re too lazy to check the boons of enemy players). Things like auto attacking with your pistol (Engi) or staff auto attack with fire attunement (Eli). Both explode and cause a small amount of AoE damage, however are not continuous. As a Guardian, I test these waters with symbols which pulse, as stated, and allow me to see if those I am about to spam a PBAoE are decced out with retaliation.

One or two pistol auto attack =‘s “stupid play” and eng should be downed for that?… yet multiple attacks from a guard (not just auto) isn’t and they shouldn’t be downed for it… and this is just due to playing smart and not a balance issue? “Testing” with a pistol on eng can take off most of the eng’s hp in a singe shot btw (because of the mechanics of the pistols)… so… I 100% disagree. This just seems like another it’s ok for my class it’s… so it’s fine for everyone type of thread without knowing the other classes.

As someone who played around with an engineer in WvW before I had no issue with retaliation while shooting into zergs with a pistol. This was on an upscale too. So maybe your build just sucks? If you’re running around with a low health build on an engineer you deserve to die.

Nah, I just know the mechanics and what happens if you use piercing pistols. It just helps illustrate what’s wrong with retal atm. It doesn’t have any sort of damage cap. I’m all for it punishing players (just like confusion) but it needs a cap on how much a player can take (like confusion does).

I know the mechanics of piercing pistols too and still disagree with you. You should not be dying at all to a few shots into a zerg as not everyone will have retaliation on, so not every single explosion will proc retal, and you should have more than 20k health (15 × 300-500 is not going to hurt so badly, specially since, as stated, not everyone of those 15 is going to have retal.).

I could agree on a cap, though no where near what has been talked about. If you reduced it to a timed cool down after every retaliation hit, people would be careless. Reducing the damage wouldn’t do much because people will still manage to nuke themselves with it even if you do bring it down to 20 per tick.

If there was an internal cool down type of deal, this is what I would like to see: Retaliation can only proc up to ten times before going on a ten second cool down for said player. Or something along the lines of that.

Syktek.7912:

Aberrant.6749:

Syktek.7912:

Aberrant.6749:

Syktek.7912:

ITT: Engineers and Elementalists complaining about dropping AoEs on 10+ people at a time and, for some reason, are surprised to find themselves dying to a mechanic meant to discourage stupid plays.

Stop dropping your AoEs on zergs and start placing them on smaller groups of people. Learn to play, stop complaining.

As a guardian (Believe it or not, we can get hit with retaliation just as hard as anyone else thanks to our wide range of PBAoE attacks) who does zerg busting a lot and is constantly jumping into stacked balls of players. I don’t jump in and start spamming my PBAoEs, no, I auto attack until the group breaks up. I then find a smaller portion of players and use my PBAoE on them.

So with Great Sword: Jump in using #3 > Drop Symbol (little to no need to worry about retaliation when it comes to symbols, since they pulse and only it five players at a time) > #1 for a few seconds > Group splits up > Hit #5 and pull some people together > Hit #2 and deal a nice amount of damage on up to five people without having to worry much about retaliation.

If I had simply jumped in and started spinning with #2 (Whirling Wrath) I would have died immediately because of retaliation. I have done this multiple times though I learned my lesson and moved on.

Play smart, stop complaining.

(Edit) Edits have been made.

In addition to this, it’s not very hard to test groups who might have retaliation (If you’re too lazy to check the boons of enemy players). Things like auto attacking with your pistol (Engi) or staff auto attack with fire attunement (Eli). Both explode and cause a small amount of AoE damage, however are not continuous. As a Guardian, I test these waters with symbols which pulse, as stated, and allow me to see if those I am about to spam a PBAoE are decced out with retaliation.

One or two pistol auto attack =‘s “stupid play” and eng should be downed for that?… yet multiple attacks from a guard (not just auto) isn’t and they shouldn’t be downed for it… and this is just due to playing smart and not a balance issue? “Testing” with a pistol on eng can take off most of the eng’s hp in a singe shot btw (because of the mechanics of the pistols)… so… I 100% disagree. This just seems like another it’s ok for my class it’s… so it’s fine for everyone type of thread without knowing the other classes.

As someone who played around with an engineer in WvW before I had no issue with retaliation while shooting into zergs with a pistol. This was on an upscale too. So maybe your build just sucks? If you’re running around with a low health build on an engineer you deserve to die.

Nah, I just know the mechanics and what happens if you use piercing pistols. It just helps illustrate what’s wrong with retal atm. It doesn’t have any sort of damage cap. I’m all for it punishing players (just like confusion) but it needs a cap on how much a player can take (like confusion does).

I know the mechanics of piercing pistols too and still disagree with you. You should not be dying at all to a few shots into a zerg as not everyone will have retaliation on, so not every single explosion will proc retal, and you should have more than 20k health (15 × 300-500 is not going to hurt so badly, specially since, as stated, not everyone of those 15 is going to have retal.).

I could agree on a cap, though no where near what has been talked about. If you reduced it to a timed cool down after every retaliation hit, people would be careless. Reducing the damage wouldn’t do much because people will still manage to nuke themselves with it even if you do bring it down to 20 per tick.

If there was an internal cool down type of deal, this is what I would like to see: Retaliation can only proc up to ten times before going on a ten second cool down for said player. Or something along the lines of that.

What tier are you in where you’re only hitting 15 retal ticks with a piercing attack that explodes every time you pierce? o.O Right now my server is fighting SoR… it’s not uncommon to see 50+ people balled up. If I shot into them even once with piercing pistols I would risk going down.

Even if it was only 15 retal ticks (I guess it was a small group) that’s still more damage than 25 stacks of confusion. That’s not impossible to deal with though.

I think that 10 times per 10s is a bit weak tbh… like… I’m not even asking for that much. 10 times per 2s would be a VAST improvement. Just SOME sort of cap or adjustment is needed. It’s really just that redicilous on some classes as is right now.

Over all I would think that a flat % of damage returned would be better for everyone involved though.

Aberrant.6749:

Syktek.7912:

Aberrant.6749:

Syktek.7912:

Aberrant.6749:

Syktek.7912:

ITT: Engineers and Elementalists complaining about dropping AoEs on 10+ people at a time and, for some reason, are surprised to find themselves dying to a mechanic meant to discourage stupid plays.

Stop dropping your AoEs on zergs and start placing them on smaller groups of people. Learn to play, stop complaining.

As a guardian (Believe it or not, we can get hit with retaliation just as hard as anyone else thanks to our wide range of PBAoE attacks) who does zerg busting a lot and is constantly jumping into stacked balls of players. I don’t jump in and start spamming my PBAoEs, no, I auto attack until the group breaks up. I then find a smaller portion of players and use my PBAoE on them.

So with Great Sword: Jump in using #3 > Drop Symbol (little to no need to worry about retaliation when it comes to symbols, since they pulse and only it five players at a time) > #1 for a few seconds > Group splits up > Hit #5 and pull some people together > Hit #2 and deal a nice amount of damage on up to five people without having to worry much about retaliation.

If I had simply jumped in and started spinning with #2 (Whirling Wrath) I would have died immediately because of retaliation. I have done this multiple times though I learned my lesson and moved on.

Play smart, stop complaining.

(Edit) Edits have been made.

In addition to this, it’s not very hard to test groups who might have retaliation (If you’re too lazy to check the boons of enemy players). Things like auto attacking with your pistol (Engi) or staff auto attack with fire attunement (Eli). Both explode and cause a small amount of AoE damage, however are not continuous. As a Guardian, I test these waters with symbols which pulse, as stated, and allow me to see if those I am about to spam a PBAoE are decced out with retaliation.

One or two pistol auto attack =‘s “stupid play” and eng should be downed for that?… yet multiple attacks from a guard (not just auto) isn’t and they shouldn’t be downed for it… and this is just due to playing smart and not a balance issue? “Testing” with a pistol on eng can take off most of the eng’s hp in a singe shot btw (because of the mechanics of the pistols)… so… I 100% disagree. This just seems like another it’s ok for my class it’s… so it’s fine for everyone type of thread without knowing the other classes.

As someone who played around with an engineer in WvW before I had no issue with retaliation while shooting into zergs with a pistol. This was on an upscale too. So maybe your build just sucks? If you’re running around with a low health build on an engineer you deserve to die.

Nah, I just know the mechanics and what happens if you use piercing pistols. It just helps illustrate what’s wrong with retal atm. It doesn’t have any sort of damage cap. I’m all for it punishing players (just like confusion) but it needs a cap on how much a player can take (like confusion does).

I know the mechanics of piercing pistols too and still disagree with you. You should not be dying at all to a few shots into a zerg as not everyone will have retaliation on, so not every single explosion will proc retal, and you should have more than 20k health (15 × 300-500 is not going to hurt so badly, specially since, as stated, not everyone of those 15 is going to have retal.).

I could agree on a cap, though no where near what has been talked about. If you reduced it to a timed cool down after every retaliation hit, people would be careless. Reducing the damage wouldn’t do much because people will still manage to nuke themselves with it even if you do bring it down to 20 per tick.

If there was an internal cool down type of deal, this is what I would like to see: Retaliation can only proc up to ten times before going on a ten second cool down for said player. Or something along the lines of that.

What tier are you in where you’re only hitting 15 retal ticks with a piercing attack that explodes every time you pierce? o.O

Even if it was only 15 retal ticks (I guess it was a small group) that’s still more damage than 25 stacks of confusion. That’s not impossible to deal with though.

I think that 10 times per 10s is a bit weak tbh… like… I’m not even asking for that much. 10 times per 2s would be a VAST improvement.

15 was a number I pulled out of my kitten to just give an example. If you fire a round into a group, you’re going to hit a set amount of people and not all of them will have retaliation.

I’ve played on several Tiers. Currently on T1 (Recent transfer to JQ to follow NS).