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Posted by: Cantur Soulfyre.5409

Cantur Soulfyre.5409

Have you not heard of the OP bearbow ranger build?? Hammer trains will not be viable much longer!! #HammerTrains2013

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Posted by: Quick Mouse.7635

Quick Mouse.7635

Are Hammer trains OP? No.
Are they effective against bad players and poorly organized groups? Yes.
Are there counter-hammer train group builds? Yes.

The problem is not the melee train, the problem is poor organization good group composition by your average pug group.

Tactical Fury [TF] – Late NA/early OCX driver (SoS)
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Posted by: ArchonWing.9480

ArchonWing.9480

Okay. So let’s imagine you’re walking around and for some reason you end up on some train tracks. You then see in front of you a train that will head towards you in about 45 seconds and thus kill you. You:

1.) move either left or right to get off the tracks
2.) You turn around and run along the tracks away from the train.
3.) You sit there and cry, wishing trains were nerfed.
4.) You run towards the train, hoping to roundhouse kick the train.

Understandably, most people pick 3 and thus end up in this thread and a few brave ones pick 2. But eh… I’ll leave it to you to figure out the rest.

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.

(edited by ArchonWing.9480)

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Posted by: daydream.2938

daydream.2938

1) stay away from them, ie kite ,
2) have a front line with stability, ie warriors gaurdians.
3) aoe the biggest cluster of them with ur backline eles, engies etc.
4) be mobile, ull need to move and kite a lot.
5) collect loot bags.

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Posted by: Cantur Soulfyre.5409

Cantur Soulfyre.5409

Please stop using logic in this thread. If folks cant figure out you dodge left or right and strafe the hammer trains from the side then, well……Darwinism?

Cantar Soulfyre-Norn W|Canter Soulfyre-Human G|Cantirus Foghorn – Charr R
Born and raised in Sorrow’s Furnace – WvWvWest Coast Squad
“All hail the mighty Flame Ram!!!” – said by Someone Somewhere at Sometime

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Posted by: Phlogus.2371

Phlogus.2371

I choose roundhouse kick the train

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Posted by: Boonprot.6274

Boonprot.6274

Characteristics of a Hammertrain:

  • The vast majority (let’s say 60%+) of your Guardians run Hammer/Staff
  • Your frontline is excessively tanky and your damage is derived from your backline
  • Guardians are typically traited for double stab (20 in Virtues at a minimum)
  • Very little mobility outside of walking
  • 75% or more of your comp is frontline
  • Backline spends the majority of their time blobbed with the frontline

Not all of those characteristics need to be present for it to be a hammertrain, but those are by far the most common.

To put things into perspective, here’s your typical BALANCED comp for a 25-man raid:

  • 8 Guardians
  • 5 Warriors
  • 4 Necros
  • 4 Elementalists
  • 2 Mesmers
  • 1 Thief
  • 1 Misc

Within each profession you also have diversity. There are a number of different/nuanced Guardian, Warrior, Ele, and Necro builds that you can run.

How do you deal with hammertrains?

  • Hammertrains push LINEARLY, so you always know where they’re pushing and where they’ll end up. Dodge to the left or the right to avoid their Earthshaker/Zealot’s Embrace. You can also dodge THROUGH their push if you know there’s no hard CC on the other end/if you have stab.
  • Improve your movement and tempo. Hammertrains are slow and lumbering, so if you regroup and push faster than them, you’ll put them on their back foot quickly.
  • Use hard CC and boon strips wisely. They may have double stab, but it doesn’t last forever. Coordinate boon strips with bombs and pushes to split people from the mothership and nuke them down. Hard CC is especially effective with boon strip.
  • Do your best to isolate backliners from the frontline. Backliners in hammertrains tend to not know positioning once they’ve been split off and will die in the wilderness as a result.

I promise hammertrains are easy to kill; we kill them all the time.

Supreme Commander Boonprot, Lord Regent of the Portals
Boonprot 80 G
[Ark] Maguuma

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Posted by: Oozo.7856

Oozo.7856

I have little to no respect for guild groups that run with over 50% guardians and warriors. The higher that percentage, the less respect I have.

Just look at that ^

A group that runs 50% heavies is considered a balanced comp? LOL.

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Posted by: Junkpile.7439

Junkpile.7439

I have little respect for guilds who use some kind of tactics or who use some www gear. Real men come www PvE spec on, rush inside enemy zerg and try to solo kill as many as they can. Tactics are for players who can’t play.

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Posted by: Oozo.7856

Oozo.7856

Running with that many guardians is an attempt to play the game in easy mode.

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Posted by: Boonprot.6274

Boonprot.6274

I have little to no respect for guild groups that run with over 50% guardians and warriors. The higher that percentage, the less respect I have.

Just look at that ^

A group that runs 50% heavies is considered a balanced comp? LOL.

That awkward moment when, in WvW, there’s really only a frontline and a backline, meaning that 50% is balanced.

(PS if rangers were actually useful they could probably form part of a frontline, too. But they’re not so they can’t. Not to mention that engis have exceptionally limited usefulness, too.)

Edit: (5+8)/25 = 0.52 in case the math was confusing (numbers, how do they work?).

Supreme Commander Boonprot, Lord Regent of the Portals
Boonprot 80 G
[Ark] Maguuma

(edited by Boonprot.6274)

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Posted by: Oozo.7856

Oozo.7856

I have little to no respect for guild groups that run with over 50% guardians and warriors. The higher that percentage, the less respect I have.

Just look at that ^

A group that runs 50% heavies is considered a balanced comp? LOL.

That awkward moment when, in WvW, there’s really only a frontline and a backline, meaning that 50% is balanced.

(PS if rangers were actually useful they could probably form part of a frontline, too. But they’re not so they can’t. Not to mention that engis have exceptionally limited usefulness, too.)

First, let me say that of these types of groups I think [Ark] is top level. So, when I say the things I say it is not to insult your guild.

The people that kitten me off are the people who are clearly bad players running with over15 people where over 70% of them are warriors and guardians. We have to fight these groups with less than ten players all the time. They often times have more warriors than we even have players.

They are horrible, but they get carried by bad game design: aoe cap, warbanners, hard rezzing, tank guardians and tank warriors using healing signets and healing shouts with a near impenetrable shield of cleansing.

It is not fun fighting these groups even when you win. It’s like pulling teeth.

And, even considering your composition: 8 out of 25 are guardians. That is nearly one third of your composition. There are 8 classes.

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(edited by Oozo.7856)

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Posted by: wwfam.2495

wwfam.2495

Coordinate Ice Spike/Meteor showers from your staff eles. Along with Null fields and Static fields, this would drop them near instantly.

Backline squishies deal a lot more damage than hammer trains.

meh, want anti hammer train? bring some rangers with muddy terrain and entangle and a bunch of soft CC. Watch them stand there helplessly eating whatever your zerg can dish out.

lolololololololololololol

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Posted by: Boonprot.6274

Boonprot.6274

I have little to no respect for guild groups that run with over 50% guardians and warriors. The higher that percentage, the less respect I have.

Just look at that ^

A group that runs 50% heavies is considered a balanced comp? LOL.

That awkward moment when, in WvW, there’s really only a frontline and a backline, meaning that 50% is balanced.

(PS if rangers were actually useful they could probably form part of a frontline, too. But they’re not so they can’t. Not to mention that engis have exceptionally limited usefulness, too.)

First, let me say that of these types of groups I think [Ark] is top level. So, when I say the things I say it is not to insult your guild.

The people that kitten me off are the people who are clearly bad players running with over15 people where over 70% of them are warriors and guardians. We have to fight these groups with less than ten players all the time. They often times have more warriors than we even have players.

They are horrible, but they get carried by bad game design: aoe cap, warbanners, hard rezzing, tank guardians and tank warriors using signets and healing shouts with a near impenetrable shield of cleansing.

It is not fun fighting these groups even when you win. It’s like pulling teeth.

And, even considering your composition: 8 out of 25 are guardians. That is nearly one third of your composition. There are 8 classes.

I think the issue stems more from two of the eight classes being more-or-less useless when it comes to organized group play. The dominance of guardians in a frontline is a symptom of a couple of things. First, stability is hard to come by for a lot of classes, so AoE stability via SYG is extremely important, especially considering the strength of hard cc. The second is that, since there’s no true healing in GW2, boons play a huge role in your comp’s sustain. Guardians are, by far, the best at providing retaliation, regeneration, protection, and might. Those are the four main boons that you want to maintain an almost 100% uptime with.

That said, there’s a real danger of over-investing into your frontline and a LOT of guilds fall into that trap. In my opinion, that’s where guilds transition into being a hammertrain.

If engis and rangers had better tools that suited organized group play you’d see a lot more diversity in your frontline. However, for the time being both are greatly outclassed by warriors and guardians.

Supreme Commander Boonprot, Lord Regent of the Portals
Boonprot 80 G
[Ark] Maguuma

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Posted by: Oozo.7856

Oozo.7856

I have little to no respect for guild groups that run with over 50% guardians and warriors. The higher that percentage, the less respect I have.

Just look at that ^

A group that runs 50% heavies is considered a balanced comp? LOL.

That awkward moment when, in WvW, there’s really only a frontline and a backline, meaning that 50% is balanced.

(PS if rangers were actually useful they could probably form part of a frontline, too. But they’re not so they can’t. Not to mention that engis have exceptionally limited usefulness, too.)

First, let me say that of these types of groups I think [Ark] is top level. So, when I say the things I say it is not to insult your guild.

The people that kitten me off are the people who are clearly bad players running with over15 people where over 70% of them are warriors and guardians. We have to fight these groups with less than ten players all the time. They often times have more warriors than we even have players.

They are horrible, but they get carried by bad game design: aoe cap, warbanners, hard rezzing, tank guardians and tank warriors using signets and healing shouts with a near impenetrable shield of cleansing.

It is not fun fighting these groups even when you win. It’s like pulling teeth.

And, even considering your composition: 8 out of 25 are guardians. That is nearly one third of your composition. There are 8 classes.

I think the issue stems more from two of the eight classes being more-or-less useless when it comes to organized group play. The dominance of guardians in a frontline is a symptom of a couple of things. First, stability is hard to come by for a lot of classes, so AoE stability via SYG is extremely important, especially considering the strength of hard cc. The second is that, since there’s no true healing in GW2, boons play a huge role in your comp’s sustain. Guardians are, by far, the best at providing retaliation, regeneration, protection, and might. Those are the four main boons that you want to maintain an almost 100% uptime with.

That said, there’s a real danger of over-investing into your frontline and a LOT of guilds fall into that trap. In my opinion, that’s where guilds transition into being a hammertrain.

If engis and rangers had better tools that suited organized group play you’d see a lot more diversity in your frontline. However, for the time being both are greatly outclassed by warriors and guardians.

Agreed on everything. It would do Anet well to consider these things and make some changes here and there to bring more diversity of compositions to the table.

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Posted by: SkylightMoon.1980

SkylightMoon.1980

Hammer trains really arnt as big a problem as you think. I think wvw strategy may be getting diverse actually. A higher focus on proper ranged class usage. If you ever face a hammer train you must remember that they can only push one target area at a time. Which is why skilled ranged ultimately will kill a hammer train every time depending on numbers. Also, most guilds dont run a ton of hammer warriors either. The melee ball that consists in a guilds force is usually 60% if the number of people is 15-25. Of those 9-15 melee, most are guardians, whose hammers dont have CC. Like say in a 25 man group, with 15 melee/10 ranged, id see most guilds running about 10 guard and 5 war compared to 10 warrior and 5 guardians. Also,being a hammer warrior, landing a clean hammerstun can be hard be hard to do because of blindness or stability that the enemy may have. Or they just are quick enough to dodge.

If you really ever encounter a hammertrain of some 20 melee, just use a bunch of necros and eles. 5 necros and 5 eles are pretty more much than enough to melt even a strong 20 man melee group. This is consideirng these eles/necros are well placed in combat while all the messy stuff is going on.

(edited by SkylightMoon.1980)

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

We all know these forum warriors are immune to hammer trains… they are so leet with their 30/30/30/30/30 builds.

For some unknown reason players are still forming hammer trains which are so easily derailed that they are usually the last fighters standing in a battle. Hammer trains apparently haven’t gotten the forum warrior memo that they cannot win so they just keep on mowing down opponents and winning. Stop the madness, tell your winning hammer trains they aren’t useful anymore!

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

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Posted by: Jaxs.5830

Jaxs.5830

Are Hammer trains OP? No.
Are they effective against bad players and poorly organized groups? Yes.
Are there counter-hammer train group builds? Yes.

The problem is not the melee train, the problem is poor organization good group composition by your average pug group.

I think the bigger problem is the cost/benefit ratio of running a hammer train. While not necessarily OP hammer trains have too much impact for being so faceroll.

In the evolution of group skill, hammer train is just a half step past learning to stack.

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Posted by: Oozo.7856

Oozo.7856

People run that many guardians so they can spam cover their group with boons (most important of which is stability) and cleanses.

Let’s say two groups of 10 fight each other. One group has 5 guardians and the other has one or two. Which one is fighting in easy mode and which is fighting in hard mode?

I play a necro usually. I know what it is like playing without huge uptime on stability. It takes a hell of a lot more awareness for me to play my necro in a group with one or two (often times no guardians) than in a group with 5 guardians keeping stability up on me. If I make a mistake in positioning, I am either downed or dead.

So, yes. Easy mode.

Oh, and now I am reminded of the time we took 5 staff guardians and a couple of DPS classes and camped 20+ players at their spawn for over 30 minutes as a joke. Guardians don’t heal for a ton individually, but if you cross heal with dodges and empowers, then heh.

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Posted by: Martrim.1078

Martrim.1078

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Hum I wonder what stability is used for?

I dont understand what is this “Stability” you speak of?

~Necros

I might be a bit late to the party, but realy?

My necro has a 50% Stability uptime, maybe u should double check the build u use in larger fights.

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Tamoko Chan ~ (Necro)
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(edited by Martrim.1078)

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Posted by: Oozo.7856

Oozo.7856

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Hum I wonder what stability is used for?

I dont understand what is this “Stability” you speak of?

~Necros

I might be a bit late to the party, but realy?

My necro has a 50% Stability uptime, maybe u should double check the build u use in larger fights.

One of the benefits of being a zergling that runs with 20+ people is that you don’t have to worry as much about your damage output.

Disregarding plague form (where most good groups will strip your stability), even if you have the lowered deathshroud trait and go into deathshroud on cooldown (whether it makes sense to do so or not) and you still won’t reach 50% uptime on stability. And, I’m sure it’s really sustainable to just flip into deathshroud on cooldown whenever it is up.

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Posted by: Martrim.1078

Martrim.1078

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Hum I wonder what stability is used for?

I dont understand what is this “Stability” you speak of?

~Necros

I might be a bit late to the party, but realy?

My necro has a 50% Stability uptime, maybe u should double check the build u use in larger fights.

One of the benefits of being a zergling that runs with 20+ people is that you don’t have to worry as much about your damage output.

Disregarding plague form (where most good groups will strip your stability), even if you have the lowered deathshroud trait and go into deathshroud on cooldown (whether it makes sense to do so or not) and you still won’t reach 50% uptime on stability. And, I’m sure it’s really sustainable to just flip into deathshroud on cooldown whenever it is up.

Oke, 45% (give or take a % or 2)

DS is used to reposition yourself, there is realy no excuse to get cought by the enemy frontline as a back liner.

Stability or not, if u die to the frontline as a back liner it had nothing to do with your stability

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Posted by: Epsilon Atreides.3816

Epsilon Atreides.3816

Full disclosure: main a guardian, so somewhat bias.

It’s relative. Depends on what the group is trying to do if something is going to be defined as easy mode. As you said, even fight, sure, definitely an attempt at easy mode. But if you’re setting up a guard-heavy comp because of, say, odds you consistently face, then it seems like something that could be overlooked as a necessity.

That might sound like an excuse to someone who fights small scale outnumbered all the time. But, it would seem to me that, keeping group ratios (say 2:1 odds) the same, increasing the total number of people in a fight leads to greater chance you can be focused by a larger number of attacks at any time. So, larger fights might necessitate a tankier overall group comp, even if the odds are the same.

In general, guardian is easy mode. Maybe not as brain-dead as warrior, but close.

Epsilon
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Posted by: Oozo.7856

Oozo.7856

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Hum I wonder what stability is used for?

I dont understand what is this “Stability” you speak of?

~Necros

I might be a bit late to the party, but realy?

My necro has a 50% Stability uptime, maybe u should double check the build u use in larger fights.

One of the benefits of being a zergling that runs with 20+ people is that you don’t have to worry as much about your damage output.

Disregarding plague form (where most good groups will strip your stability), even if you have the lowered deathshroud trait and go into deathshroud on cooldown (whether it makes sense to do so or not) and you still won’t reach 50% uptime on stability. And, I’m sure it’s really sustainable to just flip into deathshroud on cooldown whenever it is up.

Oke, 45% (give or take a % or 2)

DS is used to reposition yourself, there is realy no excuse to get cought by the enemy frontline as a back liner.

Stability or not, if u die to the frontline as a back liner it had nothing to do with your stability

You realize that you can be rooted and/or stunned from long range, right? You might not since you are getting a ton of stability and cleanses from your many guardians.

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Posted by: Oozo.7856

Oozo.7856

In general, guardian is easy mode. Maybe not as brain-dead as warrior, but close.

I’m not saying guardian or any other class is easy to play. There is a clear difference between a guardian that is being played well and a guardian that isn’t. I’m saying bringing that many guardians as a percentage of your composition is an attempt at playing easy mode for your group.

I’m sure fighting a group that is relying too heavily on hard CC from hammers is easier for a group with a ton of guardians. Try fighting such a group with no guardians at all and then get back to me.

Here is a thought exercise for you.

1. Most people, when given a choice, choose the path of least resistance.
2. A vast majority of guild groups run a ridiculous amount of guardians and warriors.

These are facts. What are the implications of those two facts?

That’s right. Choosing to run with a ton of guardians and warriors is choosing the path of least resistance.

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Posted by: Martrim.1078

Martrim.1078

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Hum I wonder what stability is used for?

I dont understand what is this “Stability” you speak of?

~Necros

I might be a bit late to the party, but realy?

My necro has a 50% Stability uptime, maybe u should double check the build u use in larger fights.

One of the benefits of being a zergling that runs with 20+ people is that you don’t have to worry as much about your damage output.

Disregarding plague form (where most good groups will strip your stability), even if you have the lowered deathshroud trait and go into deathshroud on cooldown (whether it makes sense to do so or not) and you still won’t reach 50% uptime on stability. And, I’m sure it’s really sustainable to just flip into deathshroud on cooldown whenever it is up.

Oke, 45% (give or take a % or 2)

DS is used to reposition yourself, there is realy no excuse to get cought by the enemy frontline as a back liner.

Stability or not, if u die to the frontline as a back liner it had nothing to do with your stability

You realize that you can be rooted and/or stunned from long range, right? You might not since you are getting a ton of stability and cleanses from your many guardians.

wait.. as a backliner u are blobbed up with your guardians? no wonder u get hammerd down

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Posted by: lioka qiao.8734

lioka qiao.8734

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQNBHhZakjmaaLqxlG+bTATK427IFFPM1jyR/cA-zUyAYLBRSBEBBkyAkALiGbhrIasqFM1JRUt/gIqmUAyqMC-w

The build in that link is what you need to stop a hammer train. They say Necros have no stability. I say bullkitten. This is a linebacker build designed to penetrate and screw up the enemy frontline. How it works is this.

You’ll need 5-6 (re 9-10) of them. Replace your guardians with em unless you have fewer than 1 guardian per party… then make sure you have enough guardians. Have your necros rattle off an N in guild chat to count them off, then split them into pairs or trios (if you have lots of em). You’re going to stagger when they are in plague form. It will go like
necro 1 and 2 : plague 1
necro 3 and 4: plague 2
necro 5 and 6: plague 3

While in plague form the necro should ONLY use number 2 skill. This does aoe blind and chill (thanks to trait). Even with dogged march this will slow down and separate the enemy frontline. They become impotent because they’re permanently blinded. With 2 necros you can cover a standard raid’s frontline with blindness. When the first group of plagues ends the second goes up. When the second ends the third goes up, and when the third ends the fourth goes up (you know where i’m going with that).

The other necros rotate: Target wells on the enemy frontline, hit warhorn 5, then hit death shroud. This basically simulates plague form without actually having plague form and minus the blind. In this hit shroud 4 and 5 then duck back out. You want to be in death shroud for every time you crash into the enemy frontline. You’ll have stability on yourself for the crashes and avoid getting knocked down.

The linebacker necros stack toughness enough that they won’t be squishy. Use that to your advantage to run as if you were a frontline class. Clear condis with you heal skill. With the linebackers doing their job your zerg will be able to counter a hammer train and lock it down while you dps it.

PS: I’ve tested this necro build buried in enemy lines and it is super tanky.

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Posted by: styx.7294

styx.7294

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Hum I wonder what stability is used for?

I dont understand what is this “Stability” you speak of?

~Necros

I might be a bit late to the party, but realy?

My necro has a 50% Stability uptime, maybe u should double check the build u use in larger fights.

One of the benefits of being a zergling that runs with 20+ people is that you don’t have to worry as much about your damage output.

Disregarding plague form (where most good groups will strip your stability), even if you have the lowered deathshroud trait and go into deathshroud on cooldown (whether it makes sense to do so or not) and you still won’t reach 50% uptime on stability. And, I’m sure it’s really sustainable to just flip into deathshroud on cooldown whenever it is up.

Oke, 45% (give or take a % or 2)

DS is used to reposition yourself, there is realy no excuse to get cought by the enemy frontline as a back liner.

Stability or not, if u die to the frontline as a back liner it had nothing to do with your stability

You realize that you can be rooted and/or stunned from long range, right? You might not since you are getting a ton of stability and cleanses from your many guardians.

wait.. as a backliner u are blobbed up with your guardians? no wonder u get hammerd down

You can see Oozo’s videos and his playstyle for yourself. I am guessing you travel with bigger groups than he does.

Gate of Madness

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Posted by: Junkpile.7439

Junkpile.7439

Haha where you find 6 necros who are willing to use that spec?

Low quality trolling since launch
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Posted by: Oozo.7856

Oozo.7856

Haha where you find 6 necros who are willing to use that spec?

That is the benefit of being someone that runs with 20 other people. Your personal damage can be horrible but you have a ton of people doing it. In a smaller scale environment you have to be able to put out damage if that is your role.

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Posted by: elkirin.8534

elkirin.8534

I think I have died to hammer trains before, I also think I have died to following a commander off a cliff…

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Posted by: Oozo.7856

Oozo.7856

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Hum I wonder what stability is used for?

I dont understand what is this “Stability” you speak of?

~Necros

I might be a bit late to the party, but realy?

My necro has a 50% Stability uptime, maybe u should double check the build u use in larger fights.

One of the benefits of being a zergling that runs with 20+ people is that you don’t have to worry as much about your damage output.

Disregarding plague form (where most good groups will strip your stability), even if you have the lowered deathshroud trait and go into deathshroud on cooldown (whether it makes sense to do so or not) and you still won’t reach 50% uptime on stability. And, I’m sure it’s really sustainable to just flip into deathshroud on cooldown whenever it is up.

Oke, 45% (give or take a % or 2)

DS is used to reposition yourself, there is realy no excuse to get cought by the enemy frontline as a back liner.

Stability or not, if u die to the frontline as a back liner it had nothing to do with your stability

You realize that you can be rooted and/or stunned from long range, right? You might not since you are getting a ton of stability and cleanses from your many guardians.

wait.. as a backliner u are blobbed up with your guardians? no wonder u get hammerd down

You can see Oozo’s videos and his playstyle for yourself. I am guessing you travel with bigger groups than he does.

He is in PYRO. I don’t think I’ve (personally) ever seen them running less than 25.
Needless to say, it’s a lot easier running a ‘backliner’ when you have a huge meatshield to play of off than when you don’t.

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Posted by: Martrim.1078

Martrim.1078

They just need to give the players a form of defiance (immunity to CC, which immobilize seems to be a part of), and this nonsense would stop.

Hum I wonder what stability is used for?

I dont understand what is this “Stability” you speak of?

~Necros

I might be a bit late to the party, but realy?

My necro has a 50% Stability uptime, maybe u should double check the build u use in larger fights.

One of the benefits of being a zergling that runs with 20+ people is that you don’t have to worry as much about your damage output.

Disregarding plague form (where most good groups will strip your stability), even if you have the lowered deathshroud trait and go into deathshroud on cooldown (whether it makes sense to do so or not) and you still won’t reach 50% uptime on stability. And, I’m sure it’s really sustainable to just flip into deathshroud on cooldown whenever it is up.

Oke, 45% (give or take a % or 2)

DS is used to reposition yourself, there is realy no excuse to get cought by the enemy frontline as a back liner.

Stability or not, if u die to the frontline as a back liner it had nothing to do with your stability

You realize that you can be rooted and/or stunned from long range, right? You might not since you are getting a ton of stability and cleanses from your many guardians.

wait.. as a backliner u are blobbed up with your guardians? no wonder u get hammerd down

You can see Oozo’s videos and his playstyle for yourself. I am guessing you travel with bigger groups than he does.

He is in PYRO. I don’t think I’ve (personally) ever seen them running less than 25.
Needless to say, it’s a lot easier running a ‘backliner’ when you have a huge meatshield to play of off than when you don’t.

I was under the impression we where talking about killing hammer trains (usualy 35~50), so running with a small roaming group (5~15) shouldn’t even be discussed here, u should not be fighting them with those numbers in the first place.
The hammer train could be naked and still run u over with those odds.

Takara Chan ~ (Thief)
Tamoko Chan ~ (Necro)
[PYRO] #MagSwag

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Posted by: Epsilon Atreides.3816

Epsilon Atreides.3816

snip

Sorry, wasn’t saying you were calling the class easy, that was my opinion and it was in the context of the scale of fights being discussed.

I also don’t disagree with you about the path of least resistance. Mine was more a comment on which is the lesser of two evils: running around in a huge blob, or having to run somewhat of a cheese group comp because you’re fighting the blob. If it were purely about the challenge and never about beating your opponent, then you’d probably roam in a team full of rangers.

But yes, people running an easy mode comp to beat opponents with equal or lesser numbers should probably just do everyone a favour and uninstall. There are already enough challenges keeping this game mode interesting.

Epsilon
Mag/FA

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Posted by: Oozo.7856

Oozo.7856

snip

Sorry, wasn’t saying you were calling the class easy, that was my opinion and it was in the context of the scale of fights being discussed.

I also don’t disagree with you about the path of least resistance. Mine was more a comment on which is the lesser of two evils: running around in a huge blob, or having to run somewhat of a cheese group comp because you’re fighting the blob. If it were purely about the challenge and never about beating your opponent, then you’d probably roam in a team full of rangers.

But yes, people running an easy mode comp to beat opponents with equal or lesser numbers should probably just do everyone a favour and uninstall. There are already enough challenges keeping this game mode interesting.

I know you weren’t saying that. Just didn’t want people to think I was saying guardian was ezmode. I play one of those too. :P

I agree with everything you said. If there is a group out there with 20 people stacked with heavies fighting 40 people and winning because of that, then more power to them.

But, when we fight these types of groups with half their numbers but can’t beat them because of warbanners and them blobbing up to hard rez the people we kill and then spam laugh us even though the only reason they won the fight is because of horrible kitten game mechanics that carry them…. then yeah, time to move on.

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Posted by: dzeRnumbrd.6129

dzeRnumbrd.6129

AoE blinds are really useful on hammer trains. Necro Plague #2, Justice is Blind, Evasive Arcana.. etc

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Posted by: Prysin.8542

Prysin.8542

was mentioned earlier that if rangers get some buffs they could run frontline.

They already can, but depending on what you want, their “usefulness” will be very different.
You can choose from 3 builds on the frontline;
Shout regen tank with CC and condi cleanse
Pure CC
Signet – Power DPS

The first will allow for fast condi cleansing and heavy regen on allies. However it is very susceptible to being mass focused as it has no “Invuln” or “GTFO” button.

The second one can be built any way you want aslong as you carry with you Entangle, Muddy Terrain and frost trap with as much condi duration as possible.

The last one is a power build; 30/20/0/20/0 that is a mix of Cavaliers, Knights and zerker. It is very tanky in terms of armor and has very high direct cleave DPS with some insane bursts (you can one-shot several lo HP targets if you time your maul and signets right). This build is NOT a ranged build, however i personally prefer to bring Axe Mainhand for easy tagging and harrassing backliners who stray too far from the zerg.

Lv 80 Guard, Ranger, Ele, Thief, warr, engi
Currently @ some T1 server in EU

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Posted by: phantomlord.3417

phantomlord.3417

Here ill solve your problem… 2 Boonway guardians = 90%-95% stability up time.

Generalrob

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Posted by: Oozo.7856

Oozo.7856

Here ill solve your problem… 2 Boonway guardians = 90%-95% stability up time.

Dealing with melee trains is super easy guys. All you have to do is dodge roll. But, just in case that doesn’t work let’s bring 8 guardians for stability.

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Posted by: Eir Jordan.2156

Eir Jordan.2156

And, even considering your composition: 8 out of 25 are guardians. That is nearly one third of your composition. There are 8 classes.

All classes are equal but some are more equal than others…

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Posted by: Facet.5914

Facet.5914

The people that kitten me off are the people who are clearly bad players running with over15 people where over 70% of them are warriors and guardians.

We have to fight these groups with less than ten players all the time. They often times have more warriors than we even have players.

They are horrible, but they get carried by bad game design: aoe cap, warbanners, hard rezzing, tank guardians and tank warriors using healing signets and healing shouts with a near impenetrable shield of cleansing.

They are carried by the numbers differential. It is nearly impossible in this game for a smaller force to defeat a vastly larger force, regardless of skill differential. 5v40 is impossible, but good teams can 25v40+ with ease.

I suspect that you will claim that this is “bad design”. If so, I would ask, how many bad or average players do you think a certain number of good players ought to be able to defeat? How many of those players do you think they can defeat now? Assuming the second number is smaller than the first, what reasoning can you provide that it is too low? Can you give any explanation for how your first number is not arbitrary?

And, even considering your composition: 8 out of 25 are guardians. That is nearly one third of your composition. There are 8 classes.

Clarify what you mean, please . Are you arguing that true “balance” is a situation in which every class is equally represented?

Yaks Bend [SoF] [Me] [One]
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Posted by: Kontrolle.3514

Kontrolle.3514

Here you go INC GvG whit almost full range:

Jes because windmill facetank duels always display WvW reallity.
Lol.