Solution to night capping/overwhelming numbers
Define “outmanned”.
Does the code kick in when there is a single extra person on the enemy side?
How do you prevent the situation where the two losing servers intentionally reduce their numbers to penalize the winning server, and then team up against them?
Define “outmanned”.
Does the code kick in when there is a single extra person on the enemy side?
How do you prevent the situation where the two losing servers intentionally reduce their numbers to penalize the winning server, and then team up against them?
How do you fix the current problem? Allow the populations with two times as many people continue to crush any and all that get in their way?
Define “outmanned”.
Does the code kick in when there is a single extra person on the enemy side?
How do you prevent the situation where the two losing servers intentionally reduce their numbers to penalize the winning server, and then team up against them?
How do you fix the current problem? Allow the populations with two times as many people continue to crush any and all that get in their way?
1. strategy
2. organization
3. cross-server alliances with the other losing server (there are three servers in WvWvW, remember)
4. teamwork
5. not giving up
6. Going into WvWvW to win, not to farm jumping puzzles or resource nodes or mobs
7. tactics
8. Deciding on leadership, rather than having a dozen random people all ordering people around in /map or /team.
9. Not falling for things like having a bunch of the enemy run past and whack your gate a few times and draw almost your entire defending force away, then losing the structure to the reserve that was hiding on the other side, waiting for you to leave.
10. less arguing, more winning.
mcl you could have just said that you have absolutely no idea how to fix the problem. that would have saved yourself some time. It is quite clear you do not grasp the problem.
mcl you could have just said that you have absolutely no idea how to fix the problem. that would have saved yourself some time. It is quite clear you do not grasp the problem.
I grasp the problem completely. But since you believe I’m wrong, kindly explain how the things I listed do not solve the problem. HINT: claiming that you can’t do them isn’t a valid defense of your position.
40 vs 500
What strategy, organization or team work beats that?
40 vs 500
What strategy, organization or team work beats that?
Getting into /map outside of WvWvW and trying to recruit people to get into WvWvW.
If it’s because it’s nighttime for the players on that server, work to recruit people from areas that would be awake during those hours to join your server.
Also, I sincerely doubt you’ve faced a 40 vs. 500 situation.
Well that does seem a bit lopsided. Is the server you are on just not into WvWvW or did they just give up? If half the people on your server are more interested in Gathering and jump puzzles in the mists then you have a different problem.
Sure way to find out the health of you server in WvWvW is how fast you get into the mists and what you are controlling. If it is a short que then there is a lack of interest and if is a long que then there is a lack of leadership on the server. For the most part WvWvW is mostly who can organize their Zergs better then the other servers.
mcl you could have just said that you have absolutely no idea how to fix the problem. that would have saved yourself some time. It is quite clear you do not grasp the problem.
I grasp the problem completely. But since you believe I’m wrong, kindly explain how the things I listed do not solve the problem. HINT: claiming that you can’t do them isn’t a valid defense of your position.
Why do you not fight a land war in Asia? Because they outnumber you so badly they can literally just throw soldiers at you and win. That is what is happening in WvWvW. During primetime servers can “hold their own” to an extent but the overpopulated servers dominate in the overnight. They do so through numerical superiority, not the reason you list above.
Why are you so quick to dismiss numerical superiority as the advantage that it is? You are basically expecting one side to have to go to extraordinary lengths in order to compete while the other can just zerg around and take everything.
You might want to brush up on the defintion of “Asia” and the military history of the region. There have been numerous land wars fought there. Including by countries like the US.
(By the way, the primary problem isn’t one of indigenous numbers, but logistics, at least where the US is concerned. Apparently, as a nation we don’t like guarding our dolyaks)
I’m not dismissing numerical superiority. I’m dismissing the knee-jerk reaction to anything that’s beating you: “NERF IT!”.
How about, for a nice change of pace, we ask people to put in some effort to turn the tide in their favor since the problem is one of player organization, not game mechanics, rather than demanding a game mechanic fix for something that isn’t a game mechanic problem?
Just this once? Pretty please?
Just one time, let’s not insist that every problem be solved by demanding the developers reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator.
(edited by mcl.9240)
40 vs 500
What strategy, organization or team work beats that?
Pictures/video of a 40 vs 500 matchup or I’m calling shenanigans.
More to the point, why should a server be penalized because the people on your server cannot be bothered to participate or organize? Why should I have to sit in a queue because your server chose to lose?
You might want to brush up on the defintion of “Asia” and the military history of the region. There have been numerous land wars fought there. Including by countries like the US.
I’m not dismissing numerical superiority. I’m dismissing the knee-jerk reaction to anything that’s beating you: “NERF IT!”.
How about, for a nice change of pace, we ask people to put in some effort to turn the tide in their favor since the problem is one of player organization, not game mechanics, rather than demanding a game mechanic fix for something that isn’t a game mechanic problem?
Just this once? Pretty please?
Just one time, let’s not insist that every problem be solved by demanding the developers reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator.
Why do you suppose that saying about fighting a land war in Asia came about? Oh right, because people have fought there and realized the cost is not worth it. Exactly what is going on in GW2 WvW.
You are asking “some people” to put in effort while others get a free ride. That is the problem. I have no problem “putting in the effort” if it was even remotely beneficial to do so. However, in WvWvW’s current state is simply is not. Spending gold to upgrade things for example is useless. The overnight zergs destroy it all by the morning when no one is on. So you have essentially just deleted some of your gold. Last night for example we had every structure we owned fully upgraded when I went to bed. When I logged on today Aspenwood owned every point on every map. It was not “lack of strategy” that made that happen. It was numerical superiority during the overnight hours.
Why do I just know that MCL and Phaedryn play on servers that dominate everyone else during the night time hours. No one in their right mind would so ardently defend what is taking place unless they were benefiting from the current imbalance.
You might want to brush up on the defintion of “Asia” and the military history of the region. There have been numerous land wars fought there. Including by countries like the US.
I’m not dismissing numerical superiority. I’m dismissing the knee-jerk reaction to anything that’s beating you: “NERF IT!”.
How about, for a nice change of pace, we ask people to put in some effort to turn the tide in their favor since the problem is one of player organization, not game mechanics, rather than demanding a game mechanic fix for something that isn’t a game mechanic problem?
Just this once? Pretty please?
Just one time, let’s not insist that every problem be solved by demanding the developers reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator.
Why do you suppose that saying about fighting a land war in Asia came about? Oh right, because people have fought there and realized the cost is not worth it. Exactly what is going on in GW2 WvW.
You are asking “some people” to put in effort while others get a free ride. That is the problem. I have no problem “putting in the effort” if it was even remotely beneficial to do so. However, in WvWvW’s current state is simply is not. Spending gold to upgrade things for example is useless. The overnight zergs destroy it all by the morning when no one is on. So you have essentially just deleted some of your gold. Last night for example we had every structure we owned fully upgraded when I went to bed. When I logged on today Aspenwood owned every point on every map. It was not “lack of strategy” that made that happen. It was numerical superiority during the overnight hours.
How do you think that those servers got to be there big humongous selves? Mostly by “putting in the effort” to organize a large, 24/7 presence.
Why do I just know that MCL and Phaedryn play on servers that dominate everyone else during the night time hours. No one in their right mind would so ardently defend what is taking place unless they were benefiting from the current imbalance.
Or perhaps we have played similar games and understand that the problem is with the players and not the mechanic. DAoC never had resets, didn’t have queues, had no forced balancing of any kind, and still had the best PvP ever devised for an MMO. But of course, we didn’t have whiny kids crying on the forums (there weren’t any forums) constantly either.
My favorite quote from those days…there are no kittened classes, only kittened players. Seems that can now be expanded with GW2 to include servers.
EDIT: wow, why is that word filtered? (g*mp)
No. I’m strongly against reducing points like this. A group of guilds could easily organize a cap during off time (which would fill the population ), why should they be penalized for strategy? A victory during off time should be the same as one during prime time. Besides, they could just cap everything and then log off to avoid penalty. If its really a problem, it’d be easier to just have out-manned give a statistical advantage. Frankly the ladder will eventually put you up against a world of similar level anyway, so it won’t be much of a problem down that line.
You might want to brush up on the defintion of “Asia” and the military history of the region. There have been numerous land wars fought there. Including by countries like the US.
I’m not dismissing numerical superiority. I’m dismissing the knee-jerk reaction to anything that’s beating you: “NERF IT!”.
How about, for a nice change of pace, we ask people to put in some effort to turn the tide in their favor since the problem is one of player organization, not game mechanics, rather than demanding a game mechanic fix for something that isn’t a game mechanic problem?
Just this once? Pretty please?
Just one time, let’s not insist that every problem be solved by demanding the developers reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator.
Why do you suppose that saying about fighting a land war in Asia came about? Oh right, because people have fought there and realized the cost is not worth it. Exactly what is going on in GW2 WvW.
You are asking “some people” to put in effort while others get a free ride. That is the problem. I have no problem “putting in the effort” if it was even remotely beneficial to do so. However, in WvWvW’s current state is simply is not. Spending gold to upgrade things for example is useless. The overnight zergs destroy it all by the morning when no one is on. So you have essentially just deleted some of your gold. Last night for example we had every structure we owned fully upgraded when I went to bed. When I logged on today Aspenwood owned every point on every map. It was not “lack of strategy” that made that happen. It was numerical superiority during the overnight hours.
Guess the US never learns. We’ve fought no fewer than four land wars in Asia.
You don’t like some people putting in effort while others get a free ride? You must really despise paying taxes.
A completely fair game — one where it’s impossible for one side to ever gain advantage over another — would be supremely boring, and no one would play.
Perhaps the problem is that you log off just before bed, and log on first thing in the morning. I log off several hours before bed, and I don’t log in until after work and possibly dinner the next day. We usually are in the same situation we were in when I logged off the night before. And I’m on the 11th-ranked server. Nowhere near the top, and certainly not always dominant.
I don’t have to be on a top ranked server to recognize a bad idea for what it is.
Why do I just know that MCL and Phaedryn play on servers that dominate everyone else during the night time hours. No one in their right mind would so ardently defend what is taking place unless they were benefiting from the current imbalance.
Or perhaps we have played similar games and understand that the problem is with the players and not the mechanic. DAoC never had resets, didn’t have queues, had no forced balancing of any kind, and still had the best PvP ever devised for an MMO. But of course, we didn’t have whiny kids crying on the forums (there weren’t any forums) constantly either.
My favorite quote from those days…there are no kittened classes, only kittened players. Seems that can now be expanded with GW2 to include servers.
EDIT: wow, why is that word filtered? (g*mp)
Do you realise how stupid you people sound? Having to recruit people from other timezones is akitten solution. Why people would even play as slaves for others is something I cannot understand. They should just have a max difference of 10 players. So if server A has 23 players in Eternal Battlegrounds, server B can only bring 33.
If people have queues while it’s nighttime for 99% of the server population, it’s time to use that free transfer and do something useful and help out a lower populated server.
This simple solution would fix all the whining, it would create a health competition and people would be forced to spread out, instead of creating one massive server who’ll dominate everyone without a sweat.
Why do I just know that MCL and Phaedryn play on servers that dominate everyone else during the night time hours. No one in their right mind would so ardently defend what is taking place unless they were benefiting from the current imbalance.
Or perhaps we have played similar games and understand that the problem is with the players and not the mechanic. DAoC never had resets, didn’t have queues, had no forced balancing of any kind, and still had the best PvP ever devised for an MMO. But of course, we didn’t have whiny kids crying on the forums (there weren’t any forums) constantly either.
My favorite quote from those days…there are no kittened classes, only kittened players. Seems that can now be expanded with GW2 to include servers.
EDIT: wow, why is that word filtered? (g*mp)
Do you realise how stupid you people sound? Having to recruit people from other timezones is akitten solution. Why people would even play as slaves for others is something I cannot understand. They should just have a max difference of 10 players. So if server A has 23 players in Eternal Battlegrounds, server B can only bring 33.
If people have queues while it’s nighttime for 99% of the server population, it’s time to use that free transfer and do something useful and help out a lower populated server.
This simple solution would fix all the whining, it would create a health competition and people would be forced to spread out, instead of creating one massive server who’ll dominate everyone without a sweat.
There are so many ways that the winning server could use a system like that to their advantage, I’m tempted to support it just to see those of you calling for it run back here to complain about it once it’s implemented.
Your lack of organization is not the problem of almost 2 million other players, so don’t foist your solution on all those people. In every matchup, there will be two losing servers. Which means at any given time, the majority of servers are losing. The odds of you being on a losing server a quite high.
In short, stop trying to lobby for a game mechanic fix to something that’s going to happen anyway. This is a people problem, not a game problem.
Why do I just know that MCL and Phaedryn play on servers that dominate everyone else during the night time hours. No one in their right mind would so ardently defend what is taking place unless they were benefiting from the current imbalance.
Or perhaps we have played similar games and understand that the problem is with the players and not the mechanic. DAoC never had resets, didn’t have queues, had no forced balancing of any kind, and still had the best PvP ever devised for an MMO. But of course, we didn’t have whiny kids crying on the forums (there weren’t any forums) constantly either.
My favorite quote from those days…there are no kittened classes, only kittened players. Seems that can now be expanded with GW2 to include servers.
EDIT: wow, why is that word filtered? (g*mp)
Do you realise how stupid you people sound? Having to recruit people from other timezones is akitten solution. Why people would even play as slaves for others is something I cannot understand. They should just have a max difference of 10 players. So if server A has 23 players in Eternal Battlegrounds, server B can only bring 33.
If people have queues while it’s nighttime for 99% of the server population, it’s time to use that free transfer and do something useful and help out a lower populated server.
This simple solution would fix all the whining, it would create a health competition and people would be forced to spread out, instead of creating one massive server who’ll dominate everyone without a sweat.
<— sPvP is that way, I think it is more your speed.
Why do I just know that MCL and Phaedryn play on servers that dominate everyone else during the night time hours. No one in their right mind would so ardently defend what is taking place unless they were benefiting from the current imbalance.
Or perhaps we have played similar games and understand that the problem is with the players and not the mechanic. DAoC never had resets, didn’t have queues, had no forced balancing of any kind, and still had the best PvP ever devised for an MMO. But of course, we didn’t have whiny kids crying on the forums (there weren’t any forums) constantly either.
My favorite quote from those days…there are no kittened classes, only kittened players. Seems that can now be expanded with GW2 to include servers.
EDIT: wow, why is that word filtered? (g*mp)
You obviously don’t remember the mechanics of DAoC very well. I used to run with a stacked eight man group vs the Alb zerg. You’re forgetting two extremely important mechanics that are included in GW2 that were not present in DAoC — there is a five target limit in the majority of non-ground target AOE’s, as well as a downed state. These two mechanics create major problems when you are outnumbered that were not so prevalent in RvR.
I remember an organized group of eight in DAoC could easily destroy a zerg that was four times the size. That’s simply not possible in GW2 — given equal gear, a group of 20 unorganized players will destroy a group of eight completely organized players without even putting in any effort.
1. strategy
2. organization
3. cross-server alliances with the other losing server (there are three servers in WvWvW, remember)
4. teamwork
5. not giving up
6. Going into WvWvW to win, not to farm jumping puzzles or resource nodes or mobs
7. tactics
8. Deciding on leadership, rather than having a dozen random people all ordering people around in /map or /team.
9. Not falling for things like having a bunch of the enemy run past and whack your gate a few times and draw almost your entire defending force away, then losing the structure to the reserve that was hiding on the other side, waiting for you to leave.
10. less arguing, more winning.
I think what you fail to understand is that I’m actually on a winning server. It’s still not fun to crush an opposing server that badly — especially when it is the night shift that is doing so. When WvW was new there were a few days that I pulled an all-nighter and stayed up PvPing. Let me tell you, night shift is the most boring thing on the planet vs a server without one. We ran around and capped everything and ran into almost no resistance. Is that a winning strategy? Sure. Is it fun for the losing team, or even for the winning team? Not at all.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that I would rather prioritize PvP and actually getting to fight the enemy, over winning. Who cares about winning in a lopsided match? There are no benefits. Congrats, you night capped and won a week long match because it caused the other two servers to give up. Was it fun? No. Would it have been more fun if there had actually been resistance or competition? Yes, then it would have been fun to have to work to win.
Also, your suggestions simply aren’t feasible to most players. Some people have enough obligations that they can’t reasonably sit around and organize two hundred players that (in a losing sides case) won’t listen. They can’t stay up all night and recruit players for a night shift, nor should that be required. One of the main issues is that one or two week WvW matches are not DAoC. It is much harder to organize a cross server alliance in a short match with changing opponents than it was back in DAoC, where you played vs the same people over and over and over.
TL;DR: I’m on a winning server. It just isn’t fun to destroy the opponents to the point where they aren’t able to come back. It ends up being PvBoredom instead of PvP. Maybe I’m the only one that plays WvW to actually PvP instead of win and camp gates. You can’t reasonably expect servers to organize great night shifts – there aren’t enough oceanic players to go around. Luckily our server has a good force of them, most don’t. Free server xfers to winning servers aren’t helping this, either.
You miss the point. Your response contains example after example of the opponents giving up. My entire response to you was full of items that amount to, “don’t give up”.
Losing when you give up is hardly news, or a bug, or a problem with game mechanics.
You obviously don’t remember the mechanics of DAoC very well. I used to run with a stacked eight man group vs the Alb zerg. You’re forgetting two extremely important mechanics that are included in GW2 that were not present in DAoC — there is a five target limit in the majority of non-ground target AOE’s, as well as a downed state. These two mechanics create major problems when you are outnumbered that were not so prevalent in RvR.
I remember an organized group of eight in DAoC could easily destroy a zerg that was four times the size. That’s simply not possible in GW2 — given equal gear, a group of 20 unorganized players will destroy a group of eight completely organized players without even putting in any effort.
Now this I can agree with. However, shouldn’t these issues, then, be the focus and not artificial population controls?
I also agree with you regarding the mindset of “winning”. Honestly, I hate that there is a score. It is my opinion that that ‘feature’ should be removed entirely.
You miss the point. Your response contains example after example of the opponents giving up. My entire response to you was full of items that amount to, “don’t give up”.
Losing when you give up is hardly news, or a bug, or a problem with game mechanics.
I am on a server that does not give up. We push back the night-boys of our opponents over the day, retake most of the territory and recover some orbs. Then most of us go to sleep. That is when the night-boys zerg and sweep everything we took right back. People lost gold/time/effort without being able to even do anything about it. And this circus repeats every day. Your solution?
There are so many ways that the winning server could use a system like that to their advantage, I’m tempted to support it just to see those of you calling for it run back here to complain about it once it’s implemented.
Your lack of organization is not the problem of almost 2 million other players, so don’t foist your solution on all those people. In every matchup, there will be two losing servers. Which means at any given time, the majority of servers are losing. The odds of you being on a losing server a quite high.
In short, stop trying to lobby for a game mechanic fix to something that’s going to happen anyway. This is a people problem, not a game problem.
How would it be exploited? Just implement it so that people won’t get kicked if the opponent is leaving. Eventually most people will log off and the match will reach a stalemate, as it will take hours for a few people to take over a single upgraded keep, let alone the whole map.
Also, over 2 million other players? I don’t think there’s even more than 100.000 players actively playing WvWvW at least a few hours a week. Let alone a few hours a day.
It is a people problem, I’ve never denied that. I just think the current system is lacking and thus it can get very frustrating.
Take my server for example: Gandara. We’re against Gunnar’s Hold and Blacktide. Gunnar’s Hold is by far the best, they don’t have a very strong nighttime crew, just enough to hold about 100-200 potential points through the night. Blacktide on the other hand (unofficial Russian server, so GMT +4 to +10), has an insane nighttime crew. We had about 2-3 players in Eternal Battlegrounds last night and they were just zerging around with 30-40 players in one group, it’s ridiculous.
As you can see on this screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/v5Wo1.jpg?1 Gunnar’s Hold is just a lot better, period. I don’t have any problems with that, they’re better coordinated, defend a lot better and all that, kudos to them. Blacktide on the other hand: they’re at the bottom of potential points between 08:00 and about 01:00. In those other 7 hours however, they’re on at least +400 and sometimes +600.
We’re certainly not the only server who find themselves in the same situation, there’s a lot of them out there. I’m not saying that nighttime capping should be banned, I’m saying that there should be certain fixed implemented, so people will stop this nonsense and spread out. People in different time zones shouldn’t clump up, they should spread out, there’s enough of you to have enough people on each of the 53 servers without it being a ghost town in your timezone.
<— sPvP is that way, I think it is more your speed.
It’s not my speed, I’ve had enough of structured PvP in other games.
You miss the point. Your response contains example after example of the opponents giving up. My entire response to you was full of items that amount to, “don’t give up”.
Losing when you give up is hardly news, or a bug, or a problem with game mechanics.
I am on a server that does not give up. We push back the night-boys of our opponents over the day, retake most of the territory and recover some orbs. Then most of us go to sleep. That is when the night-boys zerg and sweep everything we took right back. People lost gold/time/effort without being able to even do anything about it. And this circus repeats every day. Your solution?
Wait until the server rankings settle down and you’re matched against more reasonable opponents. Also, realize that siege weapons, improvements, and other money sinks in WvWvW are just that : money sinks. They’re supposed to be temporary, not permanent. If you don’t like losing money that way, don’t. Figure out some other source of funds for your server, or better timing for spending them.
You miss the point. Your response contains example after example of the opponents giving up. My entire response to you was full of items that amount to, “don’t give up”.
Losing when you give up is hardly news, or a bug, or a problem with game mechanics.
Yes, and it’s not going to change. What is going to happen, however, is that it will cause WvW to become a boring gate camping fest when one server dominates the other. This is especially obvious when a server has a great night crew.
It’s not fun. Orbs of power already cause the winning side to have an inherent advantage. In this game, a numbers advantage is EXTREMELY rewarding. Having more players already provides the innate advantage of more bodies and damage, but one of the main issues in WvW is that the 5 player AOE limit as well as the downed state compounds this problem.
This wasn’t a problem in DAoC — 8 man stacked group AOE’s would hit everyone. In WvW once the enemy team has the numbers advantage and is zerging the forts you try to take, you’re doomed. It’s happening to the servers we are crushing right now. They have no way to really come back. Asking them to organize an alliance in rotating (one week) matches is a bit much. Now if it were like DAoC and a continuous battle, then I would say it would be more feasible.
The thing is, the servers that currently have a strong night shift or a numbers advantage will probably still win. This is simply to help even the odds and to get the enemy to actually come to WvW and keep trying. Them giving up because they’ve lost hope is part of the human condition. If you think you can fix that with a little motivational speech, I don’t exactly know what to say. The free server transfers have already compounded the population disparity issue, and that disparity is likely here to stay. My vote is to deal with it with the options we have. I like competition, stomping on low pop servers, to me at least, is not competition.
Wait until the server rankings settle down and you’re matched against more reasonable opponents. Also, realize that siege weapons, improvements, and other money sinks in WvWvW are just that : money sinks. They’re supposed to be temporary, not permanent. If you don’t like losing money that way, don’t. Figure out some other source of funds for your server, or better timing for spending them.
Do you really, really believe this is ever going to be the case? Maybe for a select few servers, but there will almost always be mismatched servers. Those will tend to be the ones with the strong night crew. These ranking systems never work out as planned, except in a select few cases. Can we use Tier-2 as an example of an area of the bracket that will NEVER be balanced?
(edited by MrPicklez.6473)
This, to me, is just another attempt to take game balance and make it a game killer. What in the world makes you think that everything should always be equal? That in and of itself, as stated earlier in the thread, would lead to some really boring crap. You want me to go in and play WvWvW when everything is always the same? There is something to be said for the dynamics of it. There is a challenge to it that you can’t find with some sort of “ultimate balance formula” you are looking for.
You want to be the kid on the sports team who gets a trophy no matter what happens. The one who doesn’t want to feel the sting of losing or the satisfaction of winning. Why should the game protect you from defeat when someone has to be defeated for someone to win? Lets play Guild Wins, where everyone wins! F that, I want Guild “Wars”.
I want to suffer a defeat, so I feel satisfaction when I get a victory. I want to suffer defeat so I don’t think that I have the single answer. So that when I adapt a new strategy and I find it works, I again have that satisfaction of victory. You can’t understand that satisfaction if you don’t understand the bitterness of defeat.
You want it to feel fair and balanced all the time? No war, or even single battle, real or virtualized ever works that way. No one would of written the “Art of War” if there was no art to it, or it was always fair.
The latest round of servers in my WvWvW arena has put my server in the middle and even last at times, but we have been first, and will be first again. It’s a never ending eb and flow that I look forward to. Please don’t change it because a few people can’t handle defeat. Go Guerilla if you can’t take them by numbers. Take a supply camp, and a caravan, move away, and see if a small enough force comes to check it out that you can bring the fight to them. Pick off stragglers of the zerg and use your smaller force to sweep an area quickly and keep on the move. What’s the worst that will happen? Respawn and pay a couple of dimes for a repair? Waa. Should have played games like UO, Shadowbane, or even DAoC to realize how easy on the pain this game really is.
Lujan Storm – Maguuma
The Pangolins Den [PANG]
The Pangolins Den [PANG]
You miss the point. Your response contains example after example of the opponents giving up. My entire response to you was full of items that amount to, “don’t give up”.
Losing when you give up is hardly news, or a bug, or a problem with game mechanics.
I am on a server that does not give up. We push back the night-boys of our opponents over the day, retake most of the territory and recover some orbs. Then most of us go to sleep. That is when the night-boys zerg and sweep everything we took right back. People lost gold/time/effort without being able to even do anything about it. And this circus repeats every day. Your solution?
Wait until the server rankings settle down and you’re matched against more reasonable opponents. Also, realize that siege weapons, improvements, and other money sinks in WvWvW are just that : money sinks. They’re supposed to be temporary, not permanent. If you don’t like losing money that way, don’t. Figure out some other source of funds for your server, or better timing for spending them.
None of this is a solution to the problem. What you are saying yourself is “roll over and take it”. You yourself are telling the server to give up until we are matched with similar time zone.
The funniest part about “night capping” is that when it’s night time in your time zone, it’s probably day time to the other server. So during your day time, you are most likely “night capping” the other server!
“Oh no they capped everything while we were sleeping, let’s cap everything while they’re sleeping!!!”
This is not a problem in any way.
NO FUN ALLOWED [FUN]
|||Sea of Sorrows|||
|||Sea of Sorrows|||
Stop free transfers and then people will stop transferring off all the servers that are losing, which only makes them lose more. It’s the same problem in sPvP where people on the losing team quit mid-game to find another game and the winners stay.
Also, in DAoC they had a system where the side with the most relics (in GW2: orbs) had the weakest relic keep guards, whereas the side with the least had the strongest. Maybe they could look into and modify a system like this where guards or gates/walls are harder to take down the more badly that particular server is losing.
80 Warrior
2 Mesmer (sPvP only)
2 Mesmer (sPvP only)
This, to me, is just another attempt to take game balance and make it a game killer. What in the world makes you think that everything should always be equal? That in and of itself, as stated earlier in the thread, would lead to some really boring crap. You want me to go in and play WvWvW when everything is always the same? There is something to be said for the dynamics of it. There is a challenge to it that you can’t find with some sort of “ultimate balance formula” you are looking for.
You want to be the kid on the sports team who gets a trophy no matter what happens. The one who doesn’t want to feel the sting of losing or the satisfaction of winning. Why should the game protect you from defeat when someone has to be defeated for someone to win? Lets play Guild Wins, where everyone wins! F that, I want Guild “Wars”.
I want to suffer a defeat, so I feel satisfaction when I get a victory. I want to suffer defeat so I don’t think that I have the single answer. So that when I adapt a new strategy and I find it works, I again have that satisfaction of victory. You can’t understand that satisfaction if you don’t understand the bitterness of defeat.
You want it to feel fair and balanced all the time? No war, or even single battle, real or virtualized ever works that way. No one would of written the “Art of War” if there was no art to it, or it was always fair.
The latest round of servers in my WvWvW arena has put my server in the middle and even last at times, but we have been first, and will be first again. It’s a never ending eb and flow that I look forward to. Please don’t change it because a few people can’t handle defeat. Go Guerilla if you can’t take them by numbers. Take a supply camp, and a caravan, move away, and see if a small enough force comes to check it out that you can bring the fight to them. Pick off stragglers of the zerg and use your smaller force to sweep an area quickly and keep on the move. What’s the worst that will happen? Respawn and pay a couple of dimes for a repair? Waa. Should have played games like UO, Shadowbane, or even DAoC to realize how easy on the pain this game really is.
Since you obviously haven’t read this thread, I’m just going to mock you.
I would love to hear how you’re going guerrilla style while asleep, I’m taking supply camps, killing Dolyaks and lone wolves all the time. If I’m not doing that, I’m quickly helping out in defense.
On a more serious note:
There is NO problem at all in WvWvW, except for people living in other time zones and thinking it’s fun to all join a server where they’ll literally never see anyone except for the people from their own country. Australia is on the other end of the world (for EU) and there’s a lot of them playing on EU. When people come out of their bed to go to work in EU, they’re coming home from work and vice versa. There’s no reason for them to sit in EU, except to dominate WvWvW. US is a lot better for Australians, timezone wise.
Also: if I wanted to fight an unbalanced war, I’d go outside with a kitten hammer and try to defeat my country’s army with it. I play games to do what I can’t in real life: balanced internet battles.
The funniest part about “night capping” is that when it’s night time in your time zone, it’s probably day time to the other server. So during your day time, you are most likely “night capping” the other server!
“Oh no they capped everything while we were sleeping, let’s cap everything while they’re sleeping!!!”
This is not a problem in any way.
That is true actually, the problem with that is: people from other than the standard timezone (GMT +0/1 in EU) are a minority. Not just a minority but not even 5, maybe 10% of the players.
(edited by Seditiar.4036)
OP, why not just flip the outmanned buff with the orb buff, makes much more sense to me.
“Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games.”
- Mike Obrien, President of Anet
- Mike Obrien, President of Anet
Since you obviously haven’t read this thread, I’m just going to mock you.
I would love to hear how you’re going guerrilla style while asleep, I’m taking supply camps, killing Dolyaks and lone wolves all the time. If I’m not doing that, I’m quickly helping out in defense.
On a more serious note:
There is NO problem at all in WvWvW, except for people living in other time zones and thinking it’s fun to all join a server where they’ll literally never see anyone except for the people from their own country. Australia is on the other end of the world (for EU) and there’s a lot of them playing on EU. When people come out of their bed to go to work in EU, they’re coming home from work and vice versa. There’s no reason for them to sit in EU, except to dominate WvWvW. US is a lot better for Australians, timezone wise.
Also: if I wanted to fight an unbalanced war, I’d go outside with a kitten hammer and try to defeat my country’s army with it. I play games to do what I can’t in real life: balanced internet battles.
I didn’t read the thread? What did I miss? Is this not another call for something to be programmatically fixed by the developers before it’s even had time to play out? What this thread is wanting is a fix to one server being stronger than another server at a given time because of the time zone the players that play in it are in.
Options? You can only join a server that supports your Time Zone? You only open the doors to WvWvW when it’s “peak time” for a certain set of servers? Those aren’t viable options.
The reality is, we have to wait and see how it plays out. I personally like the dynamic. If I wanted it to be balanced and fair and always based on the individual skill of a player, then I would play the more limited Group PVP.
Lujan Storm – Maguuma
The Pangolins Den [PANG]
The Pangolins Den [PANG]
I didn’t read the thread? What did I miss? Is this not another call for something to be programmatically fixed by the developers before it’s even had time to play out? What this thread is wanting is a fix to one server being stronger than another server at a given time because of the time zone the players that play in it are in.
Ah, so you did read it.
Options? You can only join a server that supports your Time Zone? You only open the doors to WvWvW when it’s “peak time” for a certain set of servers? Those aren’t viable options.
Hm, it seems you didn’t read it. And you certainly didn’t read my second paragraph, or you’re just too lazy to form a proper response.
The reality is, we have to wait and see how it plays out. I personally like the dynamic. If I wanted it to be balanced and fair and always based on the individual skill of a player, then I would play the more limited Group PVP.
That’s your opinion, other people can and will think otherwise.
Since you obviously haven’t read this thread, I’m just going to mock you.
I would love to hear how you’re going guerrilla style while asleep, I’m taking supply camps, killing Dolyaks and lone wolves all the time. If I’m not doing that, I’m quickly helping out in defense.
On a more serious note:
There is NO problem at all in WvWvW, except for people living in other time zones and thinking it’s fun to all join a server where they’ll literally never see anyone except for the people from their own country. Australia is on the other end of the world (for EU) and there’s a lot of them playing on EU. When people come out of their bed to go to work in EU, they’re coming home from work and vice versa. There’s no reason for them to sit in EU, except to dominate WvWvW. US is a lot better for Australians, timezone wise.
Also: if I wanted to fight an unbalanced war, I’d go outside with a kitten hammer and try to defeat my country’s army with it. I play games to do what I can’t in real life: balanced internet battles.
I didn’t read the thread? What did I miss? Is this not another call for something to be programmatically fixed by the developers before it’s even had time to play out? What this thread is wanting is a fix to one server being stronger than another server at a given time because of the time zone the players that play in it are in.
Options? You can only join a server that supports your Time Zone? You only open the doors to WvWvW when it’s “peak time” for a certain set of servers? Those aren’t viable options.
The reality is, we have to wait and see how it plays out. I personally like the dynamic. If I wanted it to be balanced and fair and always based on the individual skill of a player, then I would play the more limited Group PVP.
That’s not what I was saying at all. I was hesitant to use the phrase “night capping”, and probably shouldn’t have. It works both ways, that’s why I included “overwhelming numbers”. If one server has the huge population advantage, at certain times, they STILL end up with an advantage, even with the reduced point gain. If they are ever outmanned by the other server, it would work in their favor as well.
People keep using other games as examples, that doesn’t fit this case. I played Anarchy, Lineage 2, DAoC — they aren’t this game. None of them had AOE limitations. None of them, aside from DAoC, had bonuses for the winning side (or guild). There wasn’t a downed state.
They’re different games. Would I love to go back to being able to kill anyone at anytime like you used to be able to do in Lineage 2? Sure, it would be a blast. Not like exotics are hard to get, if they killed me when I was red I’d just buy another.
In fact, I see your post as carebear. If you really liked PvP, you would give the losing side every incentive to come out and play. That was one of the problems with a lot of the older games — while the PvP was much more intense and (imo) rewarding, in time there was a lot of “gate hopping”, or avoiding fights if you didn’t have a clear advantage.
This game will always be considered “carebear” compared to the old games where you would drop your gear when you died, etc. So why even bother trying to make it “hardcore”, as you try to make being on the losing side sound? Being on the winning side, I’m considering xferring to a server that isn’t as dominant, solely to have more peopel to fight. That’s what I want to promote, more PvP. Winning is meaningless in WvW if you’re playing against servers that roll over. All I care about is having people to kill. I don’t mind fighting the zerg, although in this game it sucks more than any other because of the AOE limit/downed state plus the orbs compounding the numbers issue.
My point is, if you like open world(ish) PvP, and don’t really care much about capping 100% of points and staring at a gate, you would support anything to get all sides out and pvping. I feel bad for the oceanics that have to play vs servers with no other oceanic players, because it must be boring as heck to run around and cap all the keeps with no resistance. It’s just as boring to control 90% of the map and not have the enemy put up a good fight.
You might want to brush up on the defintion of “Asia” and the military history of the region. There have been numerous land wars fought there. Including by countries like the US.
(By the way, the primary problem isn’t one of indigenous numbers, but logistics, at least where the US is concerned. Apparently, as a nation we don’t like guarding our dolyaks)
I’m not dismissing numerical superiority. I’m dismissing the knee-jerk reaction to anything that’s beating you: “NERF IT!”.
How about, for a nice change of pace, we ask people to put in some effort to turn the tide in their favor since the problem is one of player organization, not game mechanics, rather than demanding a game mechanic fix for something that isn’t a game mechanic problem?
Just this once? Pretty please?
Just one time, let’s not insist that every problem be solved by demanding the developers reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator.
I concur. Every game that I have ever played, was its funnest, until Devs said something was wrong and needed to be changed.
Me @Twitch Merciless-Guild.com Commander, tamer of Centaurs.
You call giving incentives to come out and play NOT “carebear”?
And you’re doing it with a straight face?
Look: If you’re losing, your incentive should be that you don’t want to lose. Your incentive should be personal and server pride. Your incentive is that you don’t give up when the odds are stacked against you.
That’s not “carebear”. That’s called having some personal pride, integrity, and determination.
What YOU want is everything to be “fair”, which is code for “the other side’s winning! Make it easier for me to win instead!” You want a participation trophy. You want to be a special snowflake.
Thing is, in WvWvW, two of the three servers MUST lose. That’s how it’s designed. That means the majority of the people in WvWvW at any giving time are losing.
Is this really what the world has come to? Have we really reached the point where humanity just gives up when the odds are not in our favor?
I have a love/hate relationship with WvW mainly due to being an Aussie on a server with low oceanic population. All the fun is happening while I’m at work or sleeping but when I log on during my prime time we are usually out numbered by one server out of the two. I say it is a love/hate issue because I love having more enemies to fight but hate it because once all the towers and keeps are taken all that is left for me to do is roam for stragglers. Defending towers and keeps with my current offpeak population is
near impossible because the enemy zerg will just go cap something undefended or steam roll through our defense with superior numbers. I would never consider joining one of the “oceanic” servers because that is just adding to the problem.
You call giving incentives to come out and play NOT “carebear”?
And you’re doing it with a straight face?
Look: If you’re losing, your incentive should be that you don’t want to lose. Your incentive should be personal and server pride. Your incentive is that you don’t give up when the odds are stacked against you.
That’s not “carebear”. That’s called having some personal pride, integrity, and determination.
What YOU want is everything to be “fair”, which is code for “the other side’s winning! Make it easier for me to win instead!” You want a participation trophy. You want to be a special snowflake.
Thing is, in WvWvW, two of the three servers MUST lose. That’s how it’s designed. That means the majority of the people in WvWvW at any giving time are losing.
Is this really what the world has come to? Have we really reached the point where humanity just gives up when the odds are not in our favor?
Buddy, my server is destroying the other side right now. I’m sick of being on the special snowflake team. I want to have people to kill. If they need a little help to get out there so I have something to stab in the chest, so be it. I don’t want to transfer, because I enjoy playing with people that are on my server.
Also, for all I know the server I xfer to will end up dominant in a lower bracket. I shouldn’t have to transfer to have people to fight in WvW. If there are servers that are so dominant that no one comes out to fight, something should be altered to give them incentive to come out. What’s carebear is sitting on 90%+ map control over three BG’s and there being almost zilch action going on in every one besides EBG.
(edited by MrPicklez.6473)
You call giving incentives to come out and play NOT “carebear”?
And you’re doing it with a straight face?
Look: If you’re losing, your incentive should be that you don’t want to lose. Your incentive should be personal and server pride. Your incentive is that you don’t give up when the odds are stacked against you.
That’s not “carebear”. That’s called having some personal pride, integrity, and determination.
What YOU want is everything to be “fair”, which is code for “the other side’s winning! Make it easier for me to win instead!” You want a participation trophy. You want to be a special snowflake.
Thing is, in WvWvW, two of the three servers MUST lose. That’s how it’s designed. That means the majority of the people in WvWvW at any giving time are losing.
Is this really what the world has come to? Have we really reached the point where humanity just gives up when the odds are not in our favor?
Buddy, my server is destroying the other side right now. I’m sick of being on the special snowflake team. I want to have people to kill. If they need a little help to get out there so I have something to stab in the chest, so be it.
Just as long as they don’t win, right?
If you’re bored, there are plenty of servers that lose more often than not. Transfer there. It’s fast and it’s free, and you’ll have all the challenge you can handle.
But you won’t. You don’t want an actual challenge, you just want to be on the big server that always wins, and you want to be able to kill the enemy for karma and loot while you continue to dominate, rather than winning and being bored.
If you’re so bored, then perhaps you should go do something in PvE and give someone else your WvWvW slot. Someone who might appreciate it more.
Actually, I edited my post before you even finished posting yours. I could care less about winning in WvW. What is the point of it? I don’t gain anything from it. Our server got destroyed in the first few rounds of WvW and it was a BLAST because there was constant fighting.
I would happily transfer off if I didn’t have friends playing on this server. If I could get them all to transfer off it, would I? Sure. Will it happen, or be easy to get a bunch of people I enjoy playing with to transfer off? Probably not.
I’m not sure where you get off saying I don’t want an actual challenge, or that I like being on the winning server. I could honestly care less, I just like PvP, and playing with friends. It sounds like the latter you may not have experience with.
I say you don’t want an actual challenge because the majority of servers that exist in this game are in a situation in WvWvW that would present you the challenge you claim you want. There’s a simple, free, and near-instant system in place to allow you to obtain said challenge, but you quickly came up with an excuse not to use it. Even though guesting will eventually be implemented, eliminating the reason for your excuse.
If you wanted the challenge, you’d go get it. You didn’t. Therefore, you don’t.
Or I have friends that I enjoy playing with on the server I’m currently on, but alright. The server transfers will not be free forever, this is a band-aid fix. Not to mention, I would rather not have to convince everyone I play with to xfer — or split up and not be able to PvP with them. Besides, part of the reason I’m staying on this server is because next week we will likely be bumped up into the T2 bracket, and will be in a much different position (ie losing) than we are now.
It still doesn’t change the fact that everything possible should be done to promote PvP. Being in the position of the winning team this round, it’s really not fun to have no one to fight.
That is true actually, the problem with that is: people from other than the standard timezone (GMT +0/1 in EU) are a minority. Not just a minority but not even 5, maybe 10% of the players.
Are you talking 10% of the GW2 playerbase or 10% of the players that take part in WvW?
Enemy Invader
Blackgate
Blackgate
Or I have friends that I enjoy playing with on the server I’m currently on, but alright. The server transfers will not be free forever, this is a band-aid fix. Not to mention, I would rather not have to convince everyone I play with to xfer — or split up and not be able to PvP with them. Besides, part of the reason I’m staying on this server is because next week we will likely be bumped up into the T2 bracket, and will be in a much different position (ie losing) than we are now.
It still doesn’t change the fact that everything possible should be done to promote PvP. Being in the position of the winning team this round, it’s really not fun to have no one to fight.
Sorry, but the problem isn’t one of artificial incentive. The problem is that people don’t like losing. No incentive is going to fix that if the people don’t have it within themselves to self-motivate.
If you want a challenge, you have to go find one, not demand that things change so you don’t have to.
That is true actually, the problem with that is: people from other than the standard timezone (GMT +0/1 in EU) are a minority. Not just a minority but not even 5, maybe 10% of the players.
Are you talking 10% of the GW2 playerbase or 10% of the players that take part in WvW?
The latter.
To clarify: if 200k people were playing from Australia, they sure as hell would’ve given them their own servers.
Any mechanism that punishes a server for being able to field a bigger team is inherently unfair. How is it their fault that they have more people than you? This is also the reason why there are 3 sides. If one dominates then the other two should be teaming up.
The funny thing is that even during off peak hours the majority of servers (at least on the US side) are listed as high, with 3+ full. Its not that servers don’t have a good enough population, its that there aren’t enough interested in WvWvW.
Surprise surprise: http://i.imgur.com/IOPYK.jpg?1?6574
