Guild Wars 2

Ven Zehn.6573:

Like, in a real life situation, people could basically ignore the spy, or make it so that it’s more difficult for them to do.

In real life, nations hang or imprison spies and saboteurs.

A game without comparable options can’t include spying or sabotage as legitimate gameplay.

In board games or parlour games that feature spying or sabotage, there always exists some option to sideline or eliminate spies or saboteurs. Often that’s a major element of the game itself (spies and saboteurs conceal their identity, misdirect, and try to get other players to lynch innocent players as spies; investigators have spy-detecting powers; etc).

I was thinking it might be good for Anet to code hard limits on where siege can be built, where rams can only be built within so many feet on the outside of a gate, catapults/trebs/ACs can only be built in useful/non-stupid spots for offense/defense, etc…but then I figured those limits would probably not allow for legitimate creativity on the battlefield…so yeah…sometimes you gotta take the bad with the good. The rights of the many should not be dictated by the crimes of the few.

Heimlich.3065:

Ven Zehn.6573:

Like, in a real life situation, people could basically ignore the spy, or make it so that it’s more difficult for them to do.

In real life, nations hang or imprison spies and saboteurs.

A game without comparable options can’t include spying or sabotage as legitimate gameplay.

In board games or parlour games that feature spying or sabotage, there always exists some option to sideline or eliminate spies or saboteurs. Often that’s a major element of the game itself (spies and saboteurs conceal their identity, misdirect, and try to get other players to lynch innocent players as spies; investigators have spy-detecting powers; etc).

That was basically my point. Maybe I just needed to make it more clear:)

Ven Zehn.6573:

Heimlich.3065:

Ven Zehn.6573:

Like, in a real life situation, people could basically ignore the spy, or make it so that it’s more difficult for them to do.

In real life, nations hang or imprison spies and saboteurs.

A game without comparable options can’t include spying or sabotage as legitimate gameplay.

In board games or parlour games that feature spying or sabotage, there always exists some option to sideline or eliminate spies or saboteurs. Often that’s a major element of the game itself (spies and saboteurs conceal their identity, misdirect, and try to get other players to lynch innocent players as spies; investigators have spy-detecting powers; etc).

That was basically my point. Maybe I just needed to make it more clear:)

Yes, I was expanding on what you’d said, I think you have the right idea

@Jayne & Offair

Hoping to find a solution to stop saboteurs, but keep the mechanic from being abused.

Would you offer any insight on how abuse, or trolling would still occur given the below?

Values to trigger Dishonor Flag could be adjusted.

New Game Mode – WvG – World Vs Globes

14-Part-3-of-3-jk-Expanded-Major-Mechanics-n-Triggers-v5.1
j) Anti-Trolling, Buffs, & Counter-Weights

Not Implemented
Anti-Troll – WvG Dishonor Flag
1) Let the WvG community of players flag the player(s) they think are Trolls.

2) Put limitations on how this flag is applied to prevent abuse.

• 2-a) Players can request an override to their Dishonor Flag to a GM
• 2-b) ANet can override a Player’s Dishonor & Punish Abusers with Dishonor
• 2-c) ANet can see – History – When an account got flagged
• 2-d) ANet can see – History – Who voted to flag the Player
• 2-e) Players can only Vote to Dishonor another Player 1-5 (Default=1) per day
• 2-f) Require a minimum of 1-20 (Default=10) Votes to enable Dishonor
• 2-g) Each Vote must come from a different Account

3) Then decide on what the Dishonor flag does to these Trolls.

• 3-a) Player is removed from WvG & placed in Lion’s Arch
• 3-b) Player can not enter WvG based on a timer that does not expire
• 3-c) Time Out penalty 1-8 hour (Default=1)

Any time you give the player the option to have real-world actions affecting another player in game, it will be abused.

If it was as simple as getting it reversed by a GM, why don’t we just have them in game? The reality is that your suggestion would create a drain on resources that Anet doesn’t have, or they’d have GMs in game.

In the first year of wvw, some folks on a certain server discovered that if (not sure the exact threshold) 30 people all reported a certain player with in game function all at once, that player would be banned and had to spend the next three days, minimum, getting it revoked through GM/customer service. That was three days this one guy couldn’t play. And it was done repeatedly to the same guy until Anet fixed the issue.

Bottom line … Some WvWers like to game the system. Your idea would only enable them, and encourage others.

The above mechanic as it is defined can be gamed if enough people actively do it.

I’m looking for a solution that will balance the needs of an individual player…with the needs of the entire WvW Community.

What parts of it would you suggest changing, or are you suggesting it shouldn’t even be considered because it presents too high of a risk for extreme abuse by players?

I’ll update it with feedback from you and others to reduce the risk of abuse.

Then I can take this to update my notes to save the work we’ve gone through.

I feel this topic thread has merit on improving things to the WvW universe.

Siege trolling/tactivator abuse is something that’s been around since WvW has existed (the siege trolling at least, obviously). It is absolutely a punishable offense, but it is extremely rare that Anet actually takes action against it.

Whenever this topic comes up, I always draw an analogy to the way Anet handled the market/crafting exploits that went around at the beginning of the game. Many people decide to abuse an exploit to make money. Anet permabanned the lot of them, no questions asked. This happened several times, and now anyone that knows about this is wary of using/abusing something that even smells like a market exploit, because we all know that Anet will ban you in the blink of an eye for that sort of thing.

This attitude needs to be extended to WvW siege trolling. If Anet decided to start permabanning anyone that trolled like this, all of a sudden you’d see a lot less people trolling. They simply have refused to do this so far, and so the opposite effect happens: people troll because they know they won’t get in trouble for doing so.

Diku.2546:

The above mechanic as it is defined can be gamed if enough people actively do it.

I’m looking for a solution that will balance the needs of an individual player…with the needs of the entire WvW Community.

What parts of it would you suggest changing, or are you suggesting it shouldn’t even be considered because it presents too high of a risk for extreme abuse by players?

I’ll update it with feedback from you and others to reduce the risk of abuse.

Then I can take this to update my notes to save the work we’ve gone through.

I feel this topic thread has merit on improving things to the WvW universe.

It’s ANet’s job to enforce their rules on the game mode. If siege/supply/tactivator griefing are against the rules (and they are — on paper), then ANet needs to enforce those rules reliably. That enforcement needs to apply to all of the violator’s accounts.

ANet should add reporting options that cover griefing and hacking in WvW. Create provide internal tools to record and review player’s behavior, filter reports for accuracy, and detect suspicious behavior for review (i.e. deplolying rams in a friendly keep, activating the EWP tactivator when the normal waypoint is available, activating Chilling Fog when no enemies are present, etc…).

Eh, we’ve had more than our fair share of siege trolls, map spies, TS spies, and now tactivator trolls, both against us, and on our side.
We as a community frown upon it’s usage, but that can only go so far, people will do what they want to do.
As for players who use it against us, we learn to work around it. If we think there’s a TS spy, we make sure people in our TS know so that either we avoid putting too much info out, or maybe we try to feed false info (rarely happens and rarely works, but hey, lol)

Or, just take pride in the fact that people feel the need to do these things to win against you.

It’s pretty much the internet, but with more toys for trolls to use aside from their words:)

There are many things Anet can try, and they have, as well as every other company that deals with similar things, but as others have mentioned, players will always find a way to abuse the system, or work around it.

Ven Zehn.6573:

There are many things Anet can try, and they have, as well as every other company that deals with similar things, but as others have mentioned, players will always find a way to abuse the system, or work around it.

I don’t see that they have put much effort into it. The first and most effective thing they could do is regular enforcement. They don’t do that with regularity. It does not happen.

If it is against the rules (and it should be), then ANet should act like it’s against the rules. If they don’t enforce that prohibition, then the rule hardly exists.

Griefers act for months at a time without a word or an intervention from ANet. Occasionally a report gets enough attention through Reddit to trigger an actual investigation and ban, but that isn’t adequate to promote fair gameplay.

Hands-off spies are a different matter. If somebody’s joined an opposing server’s TS or map then there’s no way to prevent them from reporting on movements and activity. It would be nice to mark or otherwise discourage partying with players on other teams or to make guild chat (& guild map markers) less useful for spying. However spying isn’t my main concern.