Guild Wars 2

UmbraNoctis.1907:

The whole discussion looks only about theoretical numbers and ignores many other factors that determine whether something is op or not …

How strong a build is, depends mostly on traits and skills and situations, not on stats. Sure, certain stats can make a good build stronger, but it is never the deciding factor. If you put dire/tb gear on a strong condi build , the outcome might be op. But if you slap it on a bad condi build – the build will remain bad. Same goes for something like zerk or marauder gear. I mean, it’s not like there aren’t any op power builds …
That’s why balance should be based on traits and skills, not on stats. Stat changes are very unlikely to happen anyways, so why even waste time on proposals like this, instead of suggesting changes to traits and skills, that might be more realistic?

Well profession balance for WvW has been requested a lot. We are still waiting. This one is also high on my list.

They could tie a lot more condi skills to precision, so that dire/tb gear would loose it’s viability or just alter damage numbers. Reworking dire/tb gear would probably be easier.

There are a lot of things that need to be discussed, but
biggest problem with WvW right now is that the devs don’t play WvW. (It seems so at least).

I wouldn’t rework Dire or TB. Similar sets exist for power based builds.

They just have a very imbalanced risk/reward playstyle that dumbs the game down a LOT.

So the nerf should be to damage output.

I for one play a condi p/d thief in trailblazer and am quite satisfied with the current system. There aren’t many options for players who enjoy playing tanky versions of classes. However, a large majority of the players out there run power/crit/ferocity builds and hit like trains.

Power gear is designed for direct instant gratification style damage that can not be cleansed.

Condition gear is designed for debuffing and DoT style damage that CAN be cleansed.

Another issue I see is that if they were to nerf the gear that we spent so much time building, who is going to give us the gear in return to change our investment? My armor in particular can not be changed in the forge as it was acquired through pvp.

Forgive me for saying but I feel that 90% of these type of forum posts come from people that are ill equipped to deal with WvW combat through bad specialization choices, runes, sigils, utility cleanses. For instance I have went toe to toe with condi memsers and destroyed them due simply to them being outplayed. However, I have ran into equally skilled condi memsers and gotten my kitten handed to me on a silver platter and laughed at.

Reason? I was ill prepared to deal with that player and got over confident in my normal rotation. I did not adapt to the fight.

I guess I am saying that I am against nerfing the the gear and instead educating players on how to WvW. That does go against others opinion shrug

Siphon.8405:

My armor in particular can not be changed in the forge as it was acquired through pvp.

Is that for real? I thought all ascended armor/weapons (no trinkets) could have their stats changed in the forge.

Jeknar.6184:

Siphon.8405:

My armor in particular can not be changed in the forge as it was acquired through pvp.

Is that for real? I thought all ascended armor/weapons (no trinkets) could have their stats changed in the forge.

100% true and working as intended. According to the response that I got from an admin from a ticket that I submitted, all ascended weapons/armor obtained through PvP can not be changed in the forge.

If you want to test this go to the forge with a cheap insignia and try to change something, the option will not even populate in the forge GUI

Cygnus.6903:

For arguments sake, when that heavy armored guy hits you with, say, an Arc Divider, you take 10k+. That’s because you had to sacrifice defensive stats to make unload do an incredible 8k damage.

Arc Divider is only going to be hitting 10k+ on a sub 50% health target. Even then it’s going to require might and zerk gear.

Cygnus.6903:

babazhook.6805:

That p/p thief I am talking about has just over 20k health in wVw in a power build along with 2400 armor. He started with more armor then that (using sentenils) because he WANTED to. he found that as he scaled back his armor for more power and even more damage his survival went UP because he can kill people including your condition builds in their 3.2k armor faster. He was not forced to do this.

~snip~

Dire and trailblazers is NOT an issue. If my power thief can kill a warrior in 3k+ armor and 26k health , he can kill a person in dire with 3.2k armor and 26k health. Against that power warrior my thief can not afford any mistakes. Against a condition build he can make more then a few.

This is so far off from reality, it’s quite obvious to me that you approach this from a theoretical point of view.

A thief with 20k+ health and 2,4k armor will not kill anything quickly. 8k unloads also seem highly unlikely. I know this, because I run a full berserk thief with Scholar runes quite often, and those numbers don’t occur unless you fight something equally glassy. On a sidenote, I think its funny you say its 8k damage on a single attack, as most people (with a brain) will dodge 3/4th of your unload (which is a single button press, but 8 attacks).

If you can show me a vid of you beating a Dire warrior (or any other class for that matter) in 3,2k armor and 26k health with making several of your allowed mistakes, I’ll be surprised.

At least when you are fightign that power warrior, the ’can’t afford any mistakes’-mentality goes both ways. If the warrior screws up a bit too much, a good thief will punish. The Dire warrior can take backstabs and /dance.

P/P unload is not static in that you can move while using it. This makes seaweed salad synergize beautifully with it. You can also use something like dumplings if you wish instead coupled with a concentration sigil which allows you to stack on average 12 might stacks per unload.

P/P will always have more power then zerker unless Zerker goes for the signet build. With boon duration and other sources of might (such as might on crit) you can easily build 20 stacks might. This higher base might allows you to churn out as much damage as Zerker.

Use that seaweed salad in conjunction with a sigil of night at night and along with that might stacking you will get a huge damage boost. P/P unload is one of the highest damage brusts the thief has and does not require zerker to get that damage.

A thief build in Valkyries/knights cavaliers/soldiers or some combination of the same can make up for missing precision and or ferocity via traits , stacking and consumables

As to them “dodging your unload” , any attack can be dodged including codition attacks.

Simonoly.4352:

Very well put. Damage output across the board has escalated wildly since specialisations and HoT were introduced. I too am constantly in shock at the damage I do now. Pre-specialisations I used to have to run full zerk to get the damage numbers I can get on my Knight’s/Marauder’s/Captain’s/Zerk mixtures I use now. It’s pretty mad, but then none of the grand changes that have been made to the game since 2015 have ever taken into account the impact it will have on WvW.

Damage is actually down from launch. One shot kills were a very real and constant issue at launch and that got much worse with Ascended for a brief time. They semi-fixed that issue when they removed stats from trait lines. That same change removed some of the trait double dipping that was happening as well. Damage normalized somewhat then HoT came out and amped it back up again with more multiplier options along with much stronger condi builds. It still isn’t where it was though.

Jeknar.6184:

Marauder and Commander armor also have 10% more stats than 3-stat gear, but people don’t come crying on the forum about them, only about the condition ones.

They should. Marauder has almost completely replaced zerker for most players “in the know”. Why run Zerk when you can deal almost the same DPS with several K more health?

Straegen.2938:

Jeknar.6184:

Marauder and Commander armor also have 10% more stats than 3-stat gear, but people don’t come crying on the forum about them, only about the condition ones.

They should. Marauder has almost completely replaced zerker for most players “in the know”. Why run Zerk when you can deal almost the same DPS with several K more health?

I agree with this. I also feel that because people are so dependent on websites like metabattle for there build ideas they don’t have a creative bone in there body.

(The following isn’t directed towards you just a general thought)

It seems to me that a whole lot of crying on these forums is due to someone not able to accept the fact that they got out played in WvW. They refuse to believe that there build/gear is beatable because it works so well in pvp/pve so they cry NERF NERF NERF.

Adapt, become better, examine fights before you go into them (unless being ganked). Also, realize that not all classes are solo roamers/killers. Some are better than others because they lack group cohesion/tactics so they excel being alone.

Example just to name a few fantastic solo roamers are thieves/mesmers/warriors

On the other hand they lack much group role that can be filled by other classes much better.

Example just to name a few are druids, elementalists, guardians.

Of course these few classes CAN be played however you want but players should realize that they may get out played by the classes that have access to stealth, high mobility, or never ending health regen.

I guess what i’m saying is to learn what classes are best suited for certain things and what suits your wants as a player. If you want to be the best group support, look at classes that excel at that. Same thing when comes to solo roaming, look at the classes that are rewarding in that play style.

Just because you can’t beat them doesn’t mean others can’t or that there gear/specs is OP or needs a NERF. EVERYTHING can be countered in this game, no one class is 100% dominant in every situation.

It’s almost like saying because a warrior can TRASH anyone who stays within there great sword swing that we should nerf warriors great sword. Instead of saying, get your sorry kitten out of his cleave when he swings or you go SPLAT

That is a player tactic, not a need for a nerf.

Sorry for the wall of text.

Crinn.7864:

Cygnus.6903:

For arguments sake, when that heavy armored guy hits you with, say, an Arc Divider, you take 10k+. That’s because you had to sacrifice defensive stats to make unload do an incredible 8k damage.

Arc Divider is only going to be hitting 10k+ on a sub 50% health target. Even then it’s going to require might and zerk gear.

You do not need zerk gear for a 10k arc divider.

babazhook.6805:

Crinn.7864:

Cygnus.6903:

For arguments sake, when that heavy armored guy hits you with, say, an Arc Divider, you take 10k+. That’s because you had to sacrifice defensive stats to make unload do an incredible 8k damage.

Arc Divider is only going to be hitting 10k+ on a sub 50% health target. Even then it’s going to require might and zerk gear.

You do not need zerk gear for a 10k arc divider.

Problably a few pieces (like the trinkets) but definetely not the full gear… My warrior with little more than 200% Crit Damage can do 6k Headbutts and 10k Arc Dividers on squishies.

Rofl suggested a amulet system for this reason on Reddit (got downvoted)and my buddy posted one here and peeps flamed. PvP season 1 for everyone woooo

Cygnus.6903:

babazhook.6805:

That p/p thief I am talking about has just over 20k health in wVw in a power build along with 2400 armor. He started with more armor then that (using sentenils) because he WANTED to. he found that as he scaled back his armor for more power and even more damage his survival went UP because he can kill people including your condition builds in their 3.2k armor faster. He was not forced to do this.

~snip~

Dire and trailblazers is NOT an issue. If my power thief can kill a warrior in 3k+ armor and 26k health , he can kill a person in dire with 3.2k armor and 26k health. Against that power warrior my thief can not afford any mistakes. Against a condition build he can make more then a few.

This is so far off from reality, it’s quite obvious to me that you approach this from a theoretical point of view.

A thief with 20k+ health and 2,4k armor will not kill anything quickly. 8k unloads also seem highly unlikely. I know this, because I run a full berserk thief with Scholar runes quite often, and those numbers don’t occur unless you fight something equally glassy. On a sidenote, I think its funny you say its 8k damage on a single attack, as most people (with a brain) will dodge 3/4th of your unload (which is a single button press, but 8 attacks).

If you can show me a vid of you beating a Dire warrior (or any other class for that matter) in 3,2k armor and 26k health with making several of your allowed mistakes, I’ll be surprised.

At least when you are fightign that power warrior, the ’can’t afford any mistakes’-mentality goes both ways. If the warrior screws up a bit too much, a good thief will punish. The Dire warrior can take backstabs and /dance.

That’s usually the case with pretty much every person that’s pro-condi. All theory and speculation based on stats on paper, without anything physical to back it up. Whereas there’s already numerous videos from top roamers disproving everything they claim when they say condi isn’t op. which is why i tend to just dismiss everything they say. Its all BS. Its just a case of bad players that don’t want their crutch taken away from them, so they argue with theories even though in practice what they claim isn’t the least bit true.

Nikkinella.8254:

That’s usually the case with pretty much every person that’s pro-condi. All theory and speculation based on stats on paper, without anything physical to back it up. Whereas there’s already numerous videos from top roamers disproving everything they claim when they say condi isn’t op. which is why i tend to just dismiss everything they say. Its all BS. Its just a case of bad players that don’t want their crutch taken away from them, so they argue with theories even though in practice what they claim isn’t the least bit true.

I’m still waiting for the proofs of the “20k-condi-burst-that-kill-anything-in-1s” that everyone claims that exist… It’s easy to show this happening with power builds (in fact there is a recent thread about that) but I never seen anyone show that with a condi build.
The “Anti-Condi” players also spell a lot of bullkitten without anything to back them up besides empty words. All theorical yadda yadda and no sustance. I too can make videos of me running a build with no condi clear and being kitten on by a condi build and claim that it is op. That’s no proof of anything tho…

Nikkinella.8254:

Cygnus.6903:

babazhook.6805:

That p/p thief I am talking about has just over 20k health in wVw in a power build along with 2400 armor. He started with more armor then that (using sentenils) because he WANTED to. he found that as he scaled back his armor for more power and even more damage his survival went UP because he can kill people including your condition builds in their 3.2k armor faster. He was not forced to do this.

~snip~

Dire and trailblazers is NOT an issue. If my power thief can kill a warrior in 3k+ armor and 26k health , he can kill a person in dire with 3.2k armor and 26k health. Against that power warrior my thief can not afford any mistakes. Against a condition build he can make more then a few.

This is so far off from reality, it’s quite obvious to me that you approach this from a theoretical point of view.

A thief with 20k+ health and 2,4k armor will not kill anything quickly. 8k unloads also seem highly unlikely. I know this, because I run a full berserk thief with Scholar runes quite often, and those numbers don’t occur unless you fight something equally glassy. On a sidenote, I think its funny you say its 8k damage on a single attack, as most people (with a brain) will dodge 3/4th of your unload (which is a single button press, but 8 attacks).

If you can show me a vid of you beating a Dire warrior (or any other class for that matter) in 3,2k armor and 26k health with making several of your allowed mistakes, I’ll be surprised.

At least when you are fightign that power warrior, the ’can’t afford any mistakes’-mentality goes both ways. If the warrior screws up a bit too much, a good thief will punish. The Dire warrior can take backstabs and /dance.

That’s usually the case with pretty much every person that’s pro-condi. All theory and speculation based on stats on paper, without anything physical to back it up. Whereas there’s already numerous videos from top roamers disproving everything they claim when they say condi isn’t op. which is why i tend to just dismiss everything they say. Its all BS. Its just a case of bad players that don’t want their crutch taken away from them, so they argue with theories even though in practice what they claim isn’t the least bit true.

Quite frankly this a pathetic response. I have 10+ various Toons and only three of them condition. I prefer power builds.

The bias being expressed here is really quite obvious and that is POWER builds losing to condition and unable to face up to their own shortcomings blaming it on the build they face.

Take more cleanses. It your CHOICE to do so. If you do not take cleanses or are unable to avoid condition applications against youserlf, this a personal failing and has nothing to do with the fact that the person you face wears dire or trialblazers.

I am in WvW withabout 80 percent of all time in GW2. I use power as a roamer more often then condition.

In other words YOU are full of BS.

babazhook.6805:

P/P unload is not static in that you can move while using it. This makes seaweed salad synergize beautifully with it. You can also use something like dumplings if you wish instead coupled with a concentration sigil which allows you to stack on average 12 might stacks per unload.

I never said Unload is static, but it is 8 attacks and if you dodge relatively quickly after realizing it’s Unload, you mitigate 75% (!!!) of the damage, and you reduce the might stacking at the same time. That’s a dodge well spent! If you dodge a split second too late when it’s condi, you take the full damage or have to cleanse.
Also, Dumplings+Unload is an average of 11 stacks of might, if you have 100% crit chance to begin with and hit all 8 attacks. Again, it’s painfully obvious that you’re living in a dreamworld, aside from your math (or knowledge of the food) being off.

babazhook.6805:

P/P will always have more power then zerker unless Zerker goes for the signet build. With boon duration and other sources of might (such as might on crit) you can easily build 20 stacks might. This higher base might allows you to churn out as much damage as Zerker.

You are already factoring in that the warrior will allow you to stack might via Unload. What plants are you fighting in WvW, like for real? Mace #2 and Shield #5 will facerape a P/P thief.
Just suggesting that Sigil of Strength is good on a P/P thief is…. It’s wishful thinking.

babazhook.6805:

Use that seaweed salad in conjunction with a sigil of night at night and along with that might stacking you will get a huge damage boost. P/P unload is one of the highest damage brusts the thief has and does not require zerker to get that damage.

So, are we using Dumplings or Seaweed? You are contradicting yourself more every phrase, and we’re still in your comfortable theoretical world. Now you’re even taking sigil of night into the equation. So basically, when the stars align, we’re using two foods at the same time (maybe switch food after getting the stacks you want?!?), it’s nighttime, and my opponent takes all unloads to the face (as if he were, like, a Dire warrior /dancing), you deal good damage? In what world, and this is a serious question, do your opponents give you the time and opportunity to accomplish these criteria?

babazhook.6805:

A thief build in Valkyries/knights cavaliers/soldiers or some combination of the same can make up for missing precision and or ferocity via traits , stacking and consumables

As to them “dodging your unload” , any attack can be dodged including codition attacks.

Again, when facing real opponents, you won’t get anything done with this weak gear as a thief. That condi player can just re-apply and shrug off your damage until you run out of cleanses, which, as a thief, you don’t get a lot off to begin with. Aside from Shadowstep (60 second cooldown for 3 cleanses) and sigil of Agility (1 cleanse only, and you reduce your precision by 180), you would have to forgo Pulmonary Impact to get the cleanse on evade trait, which is such a huge DPS loss, you can’t possibly expect to deal enough damage after that.

And your comment on you can dodge everything, well duh. But, like I said above, if you dodge unload a bit late, you just nullified 50%+ of the damage. If you dodge a condi attack a bit late, you take 100% or are forced to cleanse. Somewhere, there’s a discrepancy.

Nikkinella may be a little outspoken with his opinion, but it isn’t far from the truth.

Funnily i met a p/p thief yesterday. I was fighting other players, was at half hp (~10k), suddenly my heath was gone. Checked combat log, unload hits (single hits, not the full channel) were critting me for 1,9-2k. I guess the thief had quickness, which explains, why i died so fast that i didn’t even had time to use my Signet of Stone. Sure, if i would have seen the thief coming, i could have reacted faster and avoided the dmg, but still – 10k dmg in about a second out of nowhere is nothing a condi build can do. Btw, i’m running with 2,8k armor, so not particulary glassy. And about the argument, that you can negate part of unloads dmg even when dodging late – it is a channeled skill, but thats not true for all power skills. Most power skills are single hit, so dodge in time or get hit applys here too. PP thief isn’t the only power build that can burst, it is not even very strong overall, so i don’t understand, why you fixate so much on the pp thief. It was just an example, that power builds doesn’t have to be full zerk to deal decent dmg, nothing else.

Usually it is more the “condi op” fraction, that shows lack of knowledge (“condis can’t be dodged/blocked”, “not enough cleanses to remove ALL condis” “retal only counters power builds”, “dire builds burst as hard as zerk builds” “condis need only 1 stat for max dmg” “condis are passive playstyle”, “all condis op” – nonsense like this) and if you ask them about some proof or what skills or traits are actually op, you get no answer, because they don’t know, how those condi builds work and how to play against them, so Nikkinella is not even close to truth (i would still like to see those videos he is talking about). Also not everyone who defends condis, plays condi himself – that’s just another wrong claim. I play almost exclusively power – because ranger is my main class and condi ranger sucks. I even play a build that’s weak vs condis – and still don’t die to condis more often than to power – i wonder why …

I was goign into the P/P part more detailed because I made a sidenote about his example, afterwhich he continued debating that particular skill (unload).

I do call bs on the 16k damage unload you took with 2,8k armor. I bet a few other factors had to have been met for that damage to be anywhere near true.

I won’t go into the rest of your post, as all your parenthesized remarks don’t apply to things I’ve said.

One stat for condition damage is fine. The whole theory behind how condition damage should work is fine.

In theory:
condi damage is an over time effect that can be dodged, blocked and cleansed
power damage is instant and can only be dodged and blocked

The imbalance is a result of the ability to burst with condition damage. This needs to be looked at. A build that can burst while only needing one stat to do so tends to be overpowered.

Changing game mechanics like the functionality of toughness and stuff is not the adequate solution but only adds even more complexity and imbalance.

Btw: Vote for applying sPvP skill balancing also to WvW!

Nerf PP unload pls

That argument that dire/TB give you best damage is bs of course, but who cares about spikes if you can simply outsustain your enemy. The damage is still decent though.

Look at this neverending fight against that crono.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bPHd86SicjU

You can think about vanns whatever you want and his build is also pretty good, but he obviously knows how to play his class. In the end vanns wins(it’s still a roaming montage), but the amount of headbutts/axe f1 this mesmer tanks with dire gear is crazy. It’s just painful to watch because the mesmer isn’t even good and he could have easily won if the warrior would have lost his focus.

We could argue that if you loose against dire it’s your own fault, which is true in the majority of the cases. But look at this vid. It’s just terrible. I would have a hard time defending this playstyle if I watch this vid closely.

I’m not against long fights, but against carry builds. There are a lot of things that could be done balance wise. Converting dire/tb gear coud be a step in the right direction. It’s just my opinion. Never imagined there would be that much discussion about such a minor topic, but I like it.

Btw. you will be able to convert ascended pvp gear. That was unintentional.

I don’t know what build the thief was running (i think he was core, not sure though, but probably da/cs/tr), i don’t know how many might stacks he had and how many vuln i had (as i mentioned – it wasn’t a 1vs1), maybe he was using assassin signet. Doesn’t matter, it was just meant as an anectodal reference, since you were talking about unload and it just happened that i got killed by it yesterday. Nothing else.

And yes, those remarks weren’t targeted specifically at you, but people that tend to complain about condis always make general statements without anything to back it up. And this includes you (“too forgiving since launch” etc). Why can’t people just talk about specific skills and builds and how to balance those? I mean, nobody says “nerf power”, it is always more like “nerf killshot/vault/rapid fire/CoR/traps/whatever”. But when it is about condition builds, it is always “nerf condis”, just with different suggestions on how the nerf should look like.

@beatthedown.2651
It is more Vans who is facetanking stuff and still staying at almost 100% hp constantly (resistance balanced …), the mesmer plays more defensively and barely pressures him (unless its 2vs1).
But it is not a secret, that certain condition mesmer builds are very strong in 1vs1 (not so much against power warrior though – so that’s actually a bad example). So what has this now to do with condi ranger, condi engi, condi ele, condi rev, condi war, condi thief, condi necro? Or even with different condi mesmer builds? Mistrust/bleed builds anyone? And what about hybrid builds?

babazhook.6805:

Nikkinella.8254:

Cygnus.6903:

babazhook.6805:

That p/p thief I am talking about has just over 20k health in wVw in a power build along with 2400 armor. He started with more armor then that (using sentenils) because he WANTED to. he found that as he scaled back his armor for more power and even more damage his survival went UP because he can kill people including your condition builds in their 3.2k armor faster. He was not forced to do this.

~snip~

Dire and trailblazers is NOT an issue. If my power thief can kill a warrior in 3k+ armor and 26k health , he can kill a person in dire with 3.2k armor and 26k health. Against that power warrior my thief can not afford any mistakes. Against a condition build he can make more then a few.

This is so far off from reality, it’s quite obvious to me that you approach this from a theoretical point of view.

A thief with 20k+ health and 2,4k armor will not kill anything quickly. 8k unloads also seem highly unlikely. I know this, because I run a full berserk thief with Scholar runes quite often, and those numbers don’t occur unless you fight something equally glassy. On a sidenote, I think its funny you say its 8k damage on a single attack, as most people (with a brain) will dodge 3/4th of your unload (which is a single button press, but 8 attacks).

If you can show me a vid of you beating a Dire warrior (or any other class for that matter) in 3,2k armor and 26k health with making several of your allowed mistakes, I’ll be surprised.

At least when you are fightign that power warrior, the ’can’t afford any mistakes’-mentality goes both ways. If the warrior screws up a bit too much, a good thief will punish. The Dire warrior can take backstabs and /dance.

That’s usually the case with pretty much every person that’s pro-condi. All theory and speculation based on stats on paper, without anything physical to back it up. Whereas there’s already numerous videos from top roamers disproving everything they claim when they say condi isn’t op. which is why i tend to just dismiss everything they say. Its all BS. Its just a case of bad players that don’t want their crutch taken away from them, so they argue with theories even though in practice what they claim isn’t the least bit true.

Quite frankly this a pathetic response. I have 10+ various Toons and only three of them condition. I prefer power builds.

The bias being expressed here is really quite obvious and that is POWER builds losing to condition and unable to face up to their own shortcomings blaming it on the build they face.

Take more cleanses. It your CHOICE to do so. If you do not take cleanses or are unable to avoid condition applications against youserlf, this a personal failing and has nothing to do with the fact that the person you face wears dire or trialblazers.

I am in WvW withabout 80 percent of all time in GW2. I use power as a roamer more often then condition.

In other words YOU are full of BS.

Same story here. Something like 80% of my play time in GW2 is in WvW, only one of my four characters are condition and I partake in all areas of WvW; zerging, roaming solo/group, havoc, scouting and commanding. Condition bunker Chronos (well played ones) are the only condition builds that ever give me trouble. All you need is appropriate condition removal/management and to avoid the hard hitters.

Condition builds may be a bit easier to play in most cases but there are difficult to play ones as well. Being squishy doesn’t automatically = skill. I can blast through health bars so quickly on my glass Ranger skill doesn’t even come in to play. People just die before they know what hit them. But I guess that’s balanced because it’s not a condition build going by the logic of some of the people here.

Also round of applause for that response, Babazhook. I agree 100%.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

I don’t know what build the thief was running (i think he was core, not sure though, but probably da/cs/tr), i don’t know how many might stacks he had and how many vuln i had (as i mentioned – it wasn’t a 1vs1), maybe he was using assassin signet. Doesn’t matter, it was just meant as an anectodal reference, since you were talking about unload and it just happened that i got killed by it yesterday. Nothing else.

And yes, those remarks weren’t targeted specifically at you, but people that tend to complain about condis always make general statements without anything to back it up. And this includes you (“too forgiving since launch” etc). Why can’t people just talk about specific skills and builds and how to balance those? I mean, nobody says “nerf power”, it is always more like “nerf killshot/vault/rapid fire/CoR/traps/whatever”. But when it is about condition builds, it is always “nerf condis”, just with different suggestions on how the nerf should look like.

@beatthedown.2651
It is more Vans who is facetanking stuff and still staying at almost 100% hp constantly (resistance balanced …), the mesmer plays more defensively and barely pressures him (unless its 2vs1).
But it is not a secret, that certain condition mesmer builds are very strong in 1vs1 (not so much against power warrior though – so that’s actually a bad example). So what has this now to do with condi ranger, condi engi, condi ele, condi rev, condi war, condi thief, condi necro? Or even with different condi mesmer builds? Mistrust/bleed builds anyone? And what about hybrid builds?

Then I don’t get why you make this anecdotal reference in the first place. If it was meant as that and nothing else.

The reason why I am here and made a general statement about condi’s (too forgiving since launch), is because they are when you manage to make builds that do sufficient (understatement) damage to kill people whilst taking almost maximum defensive stats. Thief, Mesmer, Engineer, Ranger, Warrior, Necro and even Guardian have builds like these available to them (allthough necro lacks hard in the mobility department, obviously). A lot of those builds have a very low skill floor to be effective, and that’s without talking about the added room for error you get by taking those tanky stats. That’s not to say that some have a decent skill cap, and that good players can distinquish themselves.

I don’t think rebalancing condi’s so that they would require three stats to do the most damage (like really, not the ‘you need precision to be gud’-bullkitten that we have now) is weird or hard. You even the playing ground for both condi and power that way. Buff and potentially nerf needed skills from there on out.

When Soldiers gear hits like a wet noodle, so should Dire.

Go and play a trap ranger without any (or at max 1) stunbreaks/stability/invuln and tell me again it is too forgiving. Go and play any other condi build that has to trade defensive skills and traits to do sufficient dmg (which applies to many) and tell me again it is too forgiving, compared to all those boon spamming power builds, builds full of passive crap and builds with spamable active defense and high dmg in one and all that stuff that is infecting the game.
If you want condi builds to take 3 offensive stats, buff crit procs and expertise so its actually worth investing into those, and add marauder/zerk gear equivalents for condi builds, then we can talk about balance.

KrHome.1920:

The imbalance is a result of the ability to burst with condition damage. This needs to be looked at. A build that can burst while only needing one stat to do so tends to be overpowered.

I’m still waiting to see these “condi bursts” that everyone talks about… zzzzzz…

I think that condi burst have something to do about traps and enemy being afk or stupid. I got condi burst yesterday, but it was like 4 vs 1 fight and all enemies played some lame stealth trap build. Necro is kind of bad removing conditions if you can’t see enemy or there isn’t any mobs in range.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Funnily i met a p/p thief yesterday. I was fighting other players, was at half hp (~10k), suddenly my heath was gone. Checked combat log, unload hits (single hits, not the full channel) were critting me for 1,9-2k. I guess the thief had quickness, which explains, why i died so fast that i didn’t even had time to use my Signet of Stone. Sure, if i would have seen the thief coming, i could have reacted faster and avoided the dmg, but still – 10k dmg in about a second out of nowhere is nothing a condi build can do. Btw, i’m running with 2,8k armor, so not particulary glassy. And about the argument, that you can negate part of unloads dmg even when dodging late – it is a channeled skill, but thats not true for all power skills. Most power skills are single hit, so dodge in time or get hit applys here too. PP thief isn’t the only power build that can burst, it is not even very strong overall, so i don’t understand, why you fixate so much on the pp thief. It was just an example, that power builds doesn’t have to be full zerk to deal decent dmg, nothing else.

Usually it is more the “condi op” fraction, that shows lack of knowledge (“condis can’t be dodged/blocked”, “not enough cleanses to remove ALL condis” “retal only counters power builds”, “dire builds burst as hard as zerk builds” “condis need only 1 stat for max dmg” “condis are passive playstyle”, “all condis op” – nonsense like this) and if you ask them about some proof or what skills or traits are actually op, you get no answer, because they don’t know, how those condi builds work and how to play against them, so Nikkinella is not even close to truth (i would still like to see those videos he is talking about). Also not everyone who defends condis, plays condi himself – that’s just another wrong claim. I play almost exclusively power – because ranger is my main class and condi ranger sucks. I even play a build that’s weak vs condis – and still don’t die to condis more often than to power – i wonder why …

I use haste and flanking strikes along with trickster trait on one of my own p/P builds. It done precisely for the reasons you gave. I can unload very quickly for quick hits that are hard to dodge and in particular when I approach via stealth.

People melt. Rangers that rely on RF will come out second best if I can get inside their range advantage,

I find the preffered way to use p/p is close from range with unload stacking the might then when in range swapping to the alternate weapon.

Build one uses boon duration so my might lasts the full 16 seconds off unload. Three unloads I am at 25 might and with dumplings you can often get to over 20 with two attacks.. Swap to staff and you can lay on oodles of hurt especially if you add on quickness (In this build quickness lasts 10+ seconds and can be used 2 times inside of 40)

The second build does not have boon duration instead using d/p off hand with sigil of intelligence. I stack might , swap to other set then chain three guaranteed crits together with that might. Generally you can get all three attacks in before might runs down. here it a great time to use fist flury or the elite impact strike as well. The might gives a great spike to that damage (better yet if you get quickness on) which is INI free.

P/P users are not forced to stay in the set. With DD they can now stealth , build might for hardhitting bounding dodges or load up that same might for higher damage to PI.

The set offers a lot if people use it wisely.

Junkpile.7439:

I think that condi burst have something to do about traps and enemy being afk or stupid. I got condi burst yesterday, but it was like 4 vs 1 fight and all enemies played some lame stealth trap build. Necro is kind of bad removing conditions if you can’t see enemy or there isn’t any mobs in range.

I met a necro that my condition theif build could not dent.

The ones with Minions using Necromantic corruption with Rise have lots of cleanses and do not need to see the target for all those cleanses. It hard for a condition user to get rid of all those minions AND deal with the necro whereas a power user can easily kill them if needed.

babazhook.6805:

Junkpile.7439:

I think that condi burst have something to do about traps and enemy being afk or stupid. I got condi burst yesterday, but it was like 4 vs 1 fight and all enemies played some lame stealth trap build. Necro is kind of bad removing conditions if you can’t see enemy or there isn’t any mobs in range.

I met a necro that my condition theif build could not dent.

The ones with Minions using Necromantic corruption with Rise have lots of cleanses and do not need to see the target for all those cleanses. It hard for a condition user to get rid of all those minions AND deal with the necro whereas a power user can easily kill them if needed.

I have played necro 3k hours and i don’t know what necromantic corruption, rise or minions mean.

Jeknar.6184:

KrHome.1920:

The imbalance is a result of the ability to burst with condition damage. This needs to be looked at. A build that can burst while only needing one stat to do so tends to be overpowered.

I’m still waiting to see these “condi bursts” that everyone talks about… zzzzzz…

Just fight a good (!) burn guard/DH who knows how to manage his ressources. You can take a whole utility bar of cleanses with you. He doesn’t care unless your cleanses have a 10 second cooldown.

Dire condi thief is another example. Way too much sustain for the frequent condi application and damage over time. Even if you land hardhitters between evade frames. He doesn’t care (3K armor, 20k HP – almost perma evasion – try to kill that build!).

Condi engi bursting out of stealth – also pretty nasty – but well, I run reaper and plague signet, so I don’t care, but other classes do.

Mace condi berserker. Cooldown on Skull Grinder (to be honest on burst skills in general) should be at least 10 seconds and not 5/4!

I repeat myself: It’s not the way condition damage works! The problem is that condi builds are by design more tanky than power builds so they HAVE to deal less dps! But at the moment SOME condi builds don’t.

This needs to be fixed and it can be done simply by adjusting some skills.

KrHome.1920:

I repeat myself: It’s not the way condition damage works! The problem is that condi builds are by design more tanky than power builds so they HAVE to deal less dps! But at the moment SOME condi builds don’t.

This needs to be fixed and it can be done simply by adjusting some skills.

Except condi builds are not by design tankier. The only reason condi builds are considered tanky in WvW is because TB/Dire. Look at sPvP, where those stats don’t exist. Condi got pushed out of sPvP meta because condi is squishier than power on every single class with the exception of Chrono.

Crinn.7864:

Except condi builds are not by design tankier. The only reason condi builds are considered tanky in WvW is because TB/Dire. Look at sPvP, where those stats don’t exist. Condi got pushed out of sPvP meta because condi is squishier than power on every single class with the exception of Chrono.

But these stats don’t exist in there for the same reason Commander’s/Minstrel don’t exist: Since sPvP consist in sitting on point, having bunker builds stale the game. I played Clerics Turret Engi in sPvP back in the day turrets were immune to crits and condi. NOBODY could make me move out of a point unless I fell asleep out of boredom. Not even the infamous decap engis.

And honestly, if Condition builds had more choices to push their damage, I doubt they would all be Dire/Trailblazer in the same way power builds are Berserker and not Soldiers (Because Precision+Ferocity increase their damage). But is there other ways to buff condition damage in this game? No. Expertise came 3 years after the launch and is only avaible in 3 stat sets: Viper who have a wasted main stat for pure condition builds (Power), Vigilant who don’t even have condition damage (Pow/Tou/Exp/Conc lul), and Trailblazer who is the only useable of them and is bloody expensive.

I really wish Vigilant had Condition Damage instead of Power… It would allow to craft a build that made use of self applied boons to push damage further. And It wouldn’t be as bunkerish as Dire or Trailbrazzers since it wouldn’t have vitality (If I were to use another piece of gear it problably would be Rabid for precisions which also don’t have vitality).

Was messing around with builds on my Warrior and landed on a fun one. Thought I’d stop in just to share these stats. ‘Cuz, yeah… All power builds are balanced and condition builds aren’t /s.

And for context: Arms/Discipline/Defence. Cavalier/Berserker. +10% damage reduction food, Toughness -> Ferocity utility food. Fury + Signet Precision (one stack, Signet Of Rage active. Which means using only that one Signet, I go up to 55% Precision. 26% base).

I truly don’t know how people have such a grudge against condition builds when you can make power builds like this that can crit 10k+ while blocking (Dragonhunter), evading (Daredevil) or just being absurdly tanky (Warrior) among other things, and while sacrificing very little. Face it, condition builds are second best and only good at killing bads or the unprepared. If you’re consistently dying to them, you’re one or both.

^^ Looks suspicious. Please post build.

To give you an idea, you have about 400+ more power, 6% more crit chance, almost 10% more crit damage, and 1k more toughness than a zerk warrior there. That you cut the bar out of your screen cap, I’m guessing you’re running full signets and a bunch of buffs.

If so, ironically, condis would slaughter you.

Choppy.4183:

^^ Looks suspicious. Please post build.

To give you an idea, you have about 400+ more power, 6% more crit chance, almost 10% more crit damage, and 1k more toughness than a zerk warrior there. That you cut the bar out of your screen cap, I’m guessing you’re running full signets and a bunch of buffs.

If so, ironically, condis would slaughter you.

Here is my exact build

As I’d said in the initial comment, 1 stack of Signet Precision is active + Fury. 25 stacks of Bloodlust + the foods as well. All I did before taking this picture was activating Signet of Rage because it’s a pretty realistic circumstance since that’s often one of the first things you’ll do upon entering a fight.

You can select 25 Bloodlust stacks and adjust the Might stacks on that page to see how the stats increase if you like.

Also, no. With a 16second cooldown on Healing Signet and with Last Stand granting longer duration Berserker’s Stance + 2 conditions removed on weapon swap (Cleansing sigil + Brawler’s Recovery) I am not at all weak to conditions.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Here is my exact build

As I’d said in the initial comment, 1 stack of Signet Precision is active + Fury. 25 stacks of Bloodlust + the foods as well. All I did before taking this picture was activating Signet of Rage because it’s a pretty realistic circumstance since that’s often one of the first things you’ll do upon entering a fight.

You can select 25 Bloodlust stacks and adjust the Might stacks on that page to see how the stats increase if you like.

Also, no. With a 16second cooldown on Healing Signet and with Last Stand granting longer duration Berserker’s Stance + 2 conditions removed on weapon swap (Cleansing sigil + Brawler’s Recovery) I am not at all weak to conditions.

Fair enough. It’s a legit build and you’re not stacking the deck. My comment about conditions (possibly) wrecking it was contingent on you running full signets (which you aren’t doing).

Healing signet’s more of an “oh man, if I better clinch this or bail” sort of skill. More often than not it gets stripped if I use it, and then I’ve got a bar of condis and no incoming healing (unless AH is still running, because a blind on the bar with no resistance will keep me from proccing that too).

Despite the raw numbers, it’s not a particularly strong build, at least not relative to what’s out there. It’s viable and all, but it won’t supplant the more common warrior builds, even the str-def-dis vanilla warrior. Would it be fair to say you haven’t had much of a problem with vanilla warriors seeming OP in a while?

Provide some way to counterplay the worst of them. Confusion should have remained only dealing damage when the target uses a skill in PvP and WvW. Torment should only take effect when the target moves. Burning should be reduced when the target dodges.

Choppy.4183:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Here is my exact build

As I’d said in the initial comment, 1 stack of Signet Precision is active + Fury. 25 stacks of Bloodlust + the foods as well. All I did before taking this picture was activating Signet of Rage because it’s a pretty realistic circumstance since that’s often one of the first things you’ll do upon entering a fight.

You can select 25 Bloodlust stacks and adjust the Might stacks on that page to see how the stats increase if you like.

Also, no. With a 16second cooldown on Healing Signet and with Last Stand granting longer duration Berserker’s Stance + 2 conditions removed on weapon swap (Cleansing sigil + Brawler’s Recovery) I am not at all weak to conditions.

Fair enough. It’s a legit build and you’re not stacking the deck. My comment about conditions (possibly) wrecking it was contingent on you running full signets (which you aren’t doing).

Healing signet’s more of an “oh man, if I better clinch this or bail” sort of skill. More often than not it gets stripped if I use it, and then I’ve got a bar of condis and no incoming healing (unless AH is still running, because a blind on the bar with no resistance will keep me from proccing that too).

Despite the raw numbers, it’s not a particularly strong build, at least not relative to what’s out there. It’s viable and all, but it won’t supplant the more common warrior builds, even the str-def-dis vanilla warrior. Would it be fair to say you haven’t had much of a problem with vanilla warriors seeming OP in a while?

I just wanted to provide an example of how power builds are, in the vast majority of circumstances, better than condition builds and are capable of achieving both high defence and offence if planned properly.

I’ve argued against the “nerf condi’s” thing so many times I’m running out of ways to validate it. All I can say anymore is that while yes, there are certain condition builds that are over performing, conditions as a whole are not. Some professions/builds get greater benefit from certain stats than what they should but that doesn’t warrant a blanket nerf to Expertise (condition duration) or conditions as a whole.

Power builds having low toughness and/or health doesn’t make them balanced. Lots of them (not all) have enough passive/active defences via blocks, evades, procs or otherwise to compensate for their armor stat short-comings. HoT brought a lot of power creep and power builds aren’t innocent of being imbalanced. I just wish condition builds would stop taking centre stage for hate and nerf cries when there are far less condition builds that are imbalanced than power builds.

Back to the build, you’re certainly right. It’s viable but not amazing. Regardless, I can crit 10k+ while having 3.4k armour. Yet no one’s pointing fingers at things like this.

beatthedown.2651:

Nerf PP unload pls

That argument that dire/TB give you best damage is bs of course, but who cares about spikes if you can simply outsustain your enemy. The damage is still decent though.

Look at this neverending fight against that crono.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bPHd86SicjU

You can think about vanns whatever you want and his build is also pretty good, but he obviously knows how to play his class. In the end vanns wins(it’s still a roaming montage), but the amount of headbutts/axe f1 this mesmer tanks with dire gear is crazy. It’s just painful to watch because the mesmer isn’t even good and he could have easily won if the warrior would have lost his focus.

We could argue that if you loose against dire it’s your own fault, which is true in the majority of the cases. But look at this vid. It’s just terrible. I would have a hard time defending this playstyle if I watch this vid closely.

I’m not against long fights, but against carry builds. There are a lot of things that could be done balance wise. Converting dire/tb gear coud be a step in the right direction. It’s just my opinion. Never imagined there would be that much discussion about such a minor topic, but I like it.

Btw. you will be able to convert ascended pvp gear. That was unintentional.

This is the sort of thing i was talking about. look at how terribly that mesmer plays. He literally got hit by every single one of the warrior’s attacks. Dodged only to proc clones and just facetanked everything else. You could never play that poorly on a power build and get away with it. And if the warrior didnt have nearly constant uptime of resistance, he would have melted. And people still think condi isn’t broken in wvw? LOL! Warrior plays extremely carefully and rotates his skills perfectly just to stay alive, mesmer presses random buttons, keyboard turns, random dodges, and facetanks all attacks and still almost wins. Condi =balanced.