Guild Wars 2

Handin.4032:

Since everyone seems to be overlooking it, and just yelling NERF THE MESMER like a mob with torches and pitchforks, let me remind you this: it takes a LONG time for the mesmer be able to use it. If you down a mesmer, you can just spike him. If he teleports spike him. The confusion doesn’t affect your spike. Even if the mesmer teleports, if you immediately spike him, he won’t even have a chance to use the illusionary rogue. Our downstate is one where we have no knockbacks, etc. Once again, the strength of the mesmer class is playing against people who just try to spam auto attacks, etc at us to kill us. The confusion a mesmer gives you does NOTHING, let me repeat in a megaphone: “NOTHING” if you just spike him. If hurts you only if you stand there auto attacking him down instead of finishing him. The teleport is fairly useless in a non-ZvZ setting, since most of the time it ports you into an AoE. So, the only time this skill comes in play, or our confusion comes in play, is if you see a downed mesmer and go “I won’t finish him, I’ll just auto attack him down”.

All of the mesmer down states are so easy to avoid by just running up and spiking him. We can’t do much damage initially, and before rogue is able to even be used you have time for over 3 spikes worth. You have to basically down us and forget we’re there, and stand perfectly still. So, no reason to nerf…just hit 1 key. Just 1 key. You’re finish key. That simple folks.

I agree, maybe the people calling for NERFs to this are the same people that I laugh at when I actually get to use my iRogue or the ones that keep auto attacking through the confusion stacks.

I guess the long and short of it is, if you get killed by a downed mesmer then you got what you deserved because we are very easy to deal with once we hit the dirt.

……
Im not sure if I should feel appalled that you let a mesmer use iRogue on you..
or sad that you stayed their for so long, in range, apparently auto attacking a downed mesmer instead of hitting F..

I really do wonder the thought process of a lot of people when they encounter other players..

This is almost as sad as the mesmer pull and confusion thread :I

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Columba.9730:

Thieves are much much worse in downed state than mesmers.

Why? I certainly do not feel OP in my thief downed state. What am I doing wrong lol?

I don’t think any mesmer feels OP in their downed state either.
People just expect Downed players to be free kills and get kitten y when they’re not.

Phantasmal Rogue is virtually useless,
It’s like 1 out of every 20 Downs that I even get a chance to use it before I either rally or die. And even then, it’s like 1 out of every 10 Phantasmal Rogues that actually do enough damage for me to rally off.

People just expect Downed players to be free kills and get kitten y when they’re not.

Well, at least i feel like a free kill when downed ^^ #3 usually manages to come off cd exactly the moment i get stomped the 2nd time (and wouldn’t do anything because it needs some ticks to rally me if it does at all) and #1 could as well not be there…

What the “mesmer defenders” (jportel is there, surprising) are failing
to understand :

“But we don’t get to use it in 1 vs 1!”

No class can use their number 3 in a 1 vs 1. NO CLASS. This is not an argment.

“Confusion isn’t useful if the enemy spike you.”

Mindblast, your auto attack in downed state, hit like a truck for direct damage. On my glass cannon build, I get hit by 1.5k by mesmer mind blast. Now me, I hit for max 500 damage on a glass cannon, with a random useless condition.You have three time my damage (number are from my experience, can vary) and you add a confusion stack, which is one of the best condition in the game in WvW.

“Just stop attacking if you don’t want to get hurt by confusion”

Yeah, if you ever found yourself in something else then a 1vs1, you know you can’t stop attacking. You ether continu the fight, or spike the mesmer. Sadly, with people around you can’t always spike. Especially since you know Mesmer has a guaranted interrupt on the first spike. If you continu to fight, you find yourself with a constant 4 stack of confusion and possible 1.5k auto attack.

“But we can only auto attack and use rogue to damage”

False. Your phantasm doesn’t despawn on downed. If you had any clone up, they continu to damage until killed. This can add a lot of damage.

Don’t worry mesmer defenders, I’m not all bad.

Personally, I don’t think phantasmal rogue is too strong. It’s a really really strong number three. I agree. But all numbers 3 are strong. Even Elem DD which have one of the worse number 3 (tho they have the best number 2) in grasping earth, does a good amount of damage. With the 3 sec bleed, does as much damage as rogue. I can hit for 3-4k with my number three on my engineer, and knock back people.

Now the issue isn’t number 3 of mesmer, it’s the whole package. They have a premium number 1, a premium number 2, and a premium number 3. All their downed are good. And they also have clone to support them.

If you compare it to engineer or warrior, you see the unbalance.

Kardiamond.6952:

What the “mesmer defenders” (jportel is there, surprising) are failing
to understand :

“But we don’t get to use it in 1 vs 1!”

No class can use their number 3 in a 1 vs 1. NO CLASS. This is not an argment.

“Confusion isn’t useful if the enemy spike you.”

Mindblast, your auto attack in downed state, hit like a truck for direct damage. On my glass cannon build, I get hit by 1.5k by mesmer mind blast. Now me, I hit for max 500 damage on a glass cannon, with a random useless condition.You have three time my damage (number are from my experience, can vary) and you add a confusion stack, which is one of the best condition in the game in WvW.

“Just stop attacking if you don’t want to get hurt by confusion”

Yeah, if you ever found yourself in something else then a 1vs1, you know you can’t stop attacking. You ether continu the fight, or spike the mesmer. Sadly, with people around you can’t always spike. Especially since you know Mesmer has a guaranted interrupt on the first spike. If you continu to fight, you find yourself with a constant 4 stack of confusion and possible 1.5k auto attack.

“But we can only auto attack and use rogue to damage”

False. Your phantasm doesn’t despawn on downed. If you had any clone up, they continu to damage until killed. This can add a lot of damage.

---

Don’t worry mesmer defenders, I’m not all bad.

Personally, I don’t think phantasmal rogue is too strong. It’s a really really strong number three. I agree. But all numbers 3 are strong. Even Elem DD which have one of the worse number 3 (tho they have the best number 2) in grasping earth, does a good amount of damage. With the 3 sec bleed, does as much damage as rogue. I can hit for 3-4k with my number three on my engineer, and knock back people.

Now the issue isn’t number 3 of mesmer, it’s the whole package. They have a premium number 1, a premium number 2, and a premium number 3. All their downed are good. And they also have clone to support them.

If you compare it to engineer or warrior, you see the unbalance.

Actually, thieves can use our number three, we just need to use 2 first to stall, then three. Yes, we can virtually interrupt a stomp twice. Which is hilarious since one time i had a dwoned fight with a warrior, and he used his 3 but instead of hiiting me dead, he tried to finish me… so i warped for the first interrupt. Then he found me, and I used number 3 for the second interrupt. Then he died…..LOL

Mesmer 3 rarely gets used. Usually the mesmer either has rallied before then due to his crazy stomp breaking #2 and confusion inducing 1(and 2, clone does it), or has been stomped before even being able to use it.

Either way, buff Engy down state. Seriously.

Kardiamond.6952:

Now the issue isn’t number 3 of mesmer, it’s the whole package. They have a premium number 1, a premium number 2, and a premium number 3. All their downed are good. And they also have clone to support them.

I don’t know how you consider our number 2 to be “premium”.
It doesn’t interrupt a stomp, it just moves you and stealths you so you don’t get hit by it.
Every class has a Downed skill to perform the same function (Dodge or Interrupt a stomp):
Guardians get AoE knockback (Much rather have this than my blink/stealth),
Warriors get single target knockdown to interrupt a stomp,
Thieves get stealth and a shadowstep,
Elementalists get Mist Form (Also far better than Mesmer’s),
Necros get fear,
Rangers get Daze,
Engineers get an aoe knockback.

As far as the Stomp Dodge/Interrupts go (What a Mesmer’s #2 Downed Skill is), I would rate a Mesmer’s as below par. Certainly not “premium”.

And as I’ve stated in this thread previously,
If you have any idea how to deal with a Downed character at all, the enemy Mesmer should never be given a chance to even use Phantasmal Rogue, none the less Down you AND kill you because of it.

EDIT: Yes, our #1 downed skill can be handy because of Confusion. But it rarely actually saves me. And the rate of attack is much slower than the #1 skills on certain other Downed professions like Thieves.

Kardiamond.6952:

What the “mesmer defenders” (jportel is there, surprising) are failing
to understand :

“But we don’t get to use it in 1 vs 1!”

No class can use their number 3 in a 1 vs 1. NO CLASS. This is not an argment.

Which is why its silly people complain about it

“Confusion isn’t useful if the enemy spike you.”

Mindblast, your auto attack in downed state, hit like a truck for direct damage. On my glass cannon build, I get hit by 1.5k by mesmer mind blast. Now me, I hit for max 500 damage on a glass cannon, with a random useless condition.You have three time my damage (number are from my experience, can vary) and you add a confusion stack, which is one of the best condition in the game in WvW.

if mind blast hits you for 1.5k then a thief will hit you for twice that.

Thats an issue with YOU specifically your Glass build.

IF you are trying to down someone in a group fight, then you need to either you need your team to take notice of the downed player and back off, or you blow a CD to do so. Im hoping your arguement is from a group v group perspective because if your trying to down someone like rambo you were setting yourself up to fail in the first place.

“Just stop attacking if you don’t want to get hurt by confusion”

Yeah, if you ever found yourself in something else then a 1vs1, you know you can’t stop attacking. You ether continu the fight, or spike the mesmer. Sadly, with people around you can’t always spike. Especially since you know Mesmer has a guaranted interrupt on the first spike. If you continu to fight, you find yourself with a constant 4 stack of confusion and possible 1.5k auto attack.

Again if your in a group fight and NO ONE BUT YOU see’s the downed mesmer your group was doing something terribly wrong.

Also again, the damage is an issue with your build.

“But we can only auto attack and use rogue to damage”

False. Your phantasm doesn’t despawn on downed. If you had any clone up, they continu to damage until killed. This can add a lot of damage.

They can also be killed with an auto attack.
In a 1 v 1 Scenerio you have the option to back off, heal a bit, wait for CD’s and poke enough to keep the mesmer from healing.

Ele’s have way to many heals for 1 v 1’s to be an issue. ESPECIALLY if the mesmer is downed and the ele is not.

If you compare it to engineer or warrior, you see the unbalance.

I dont think anyone is disagreeing with you on this point. Some professions have a really really nice downed state. The ones left behind need a revamp.

@EnRohbi

The difference isn’t the interrupt, the difference is : Will my interrupt succeed?

The reason why Mesmer number 2 is in the top 3, it’s because of how reliable it is.

Mesmer : Can only countered by no target stealth, or using it too early. Everything else will be interrupted. Only thief and Elem have a better one. You also interrupt multiple player.

Guardian : They have a fairly good number 2. AoE interrupt. Can be countered by stability, invul and I don’t remember if blind works on them. Also can be countered by having pets/players around him, reaching the AoE cap limit. This is an example of an average number 2.

Engineer : Number 2 can be interrupt be everything that exist in this game. Even placing your pet in front of you will interrupt the pull. Also get the target to your feet, making it easier for them to finish.

That’s how mesmer number 2 is premium. Top 3.

@Solori

I’m often fighting 2-4 players in WvW, so yeah, I do a lot of rambo and Mesmer are a pain in downed state. Some of them do more damage downed then alive.

But even in group fight, with culling and terrain inperfection and the chaos of the fight, if I see a necromancer on the ground, I know I can one-spike him. I can use stab/invul/stealth/blind, mostly anything to counter his single target fear.

If I down a mesmer, I know my first attemp won’t be succesful. I have NO TOOL in my engineer to one-spike a mesmer. And I have to spike him, you can’t damage a downed mesmer, because confusion will hurt you like hells. And you don’t want them to summon their rogue.

And about the 1.5k, I deserve to receive higher damage. You are right, this is my issue. But if he hit me for 1.5k, I should hit him for around the same. I hit a GC player for around 500 damage crit, with some weaks conditon. How is that balanced? Does my random chill make up for it? Or my 2 stack of bleed?

“They can also be killed with an auto attack”

That’s still one more thing to do. Still add to damage receive during your fight.

You know what is the biggest issue? Elem-Mesmer are already top 1-3 in polls on the tPvP forum, and they also have the best downed state.

It’s just salt in the wound.

by the way : My opinion would be to remove downed state, or only let people heal or number 3.

@Redspectium : Forgot about thief, but do people really spike thief? I just dps them. Easier.

Kardiamond.6952:

The difference isn’t the interrupt, the difference is : Will my interrupt succeed?

The same thing applies for Mesmer, if you use your 2 skill at the wrong time or it ports you to right next to where you were, you still die.

Mesmer : Can only countered by no target stealth, or using it too early. Everything else will be interrupted.

Or just wait until the second Mesmer pops up after stealth … because then they are dead. Clearly you aren’t very familiar with Mesmer downed skills.

I’m often fighting 2-4 players in WvW, so yeah, I do a lot of rambo and Mesmer are a pain in downed state. Some of them do more damage downed then alive.

If I facepalm any harder I will have a permanent handmark. No mesmer does more damage in a downed state.

And I have to spike him, you can’t damage a downed mesmer, because confusion will hurt you like hells. And you don’t want them to summon their rogue.

If I facepalm any harder I will have a permanent handmark. No mesmer does more damage in a downed state, and confusion only really matters if it stacks on you (we can’t stack very many unless you stand in front of us forever doing nothing). Spiking isn’t hard, or really, just go ranged if you want to damage since our 1 skill can’t hit ranged worth jack.

And about the 1.5k, I deserve to receive higher damage. You are right, this is my issue. But if he hit me for 1.5k, I should hit him for around the same. I hit a GC player for around 500 damage crit, with some weaks conditon. How is that balanced? Does my random chill make up for it? Or my 2 stack of bleed?

Mesmer’s do not hit for 1.5k, you being dumb and attacking quickly with confusion will do that. Either remove it or get ranged.

Kardiamond.6952:

You know what is the biggest issue? Elem-Mesmer are already top 1-3 in polls on the tPvP forum, and they also have the best downed state.

This isn’t sPvP/tPvP, invalid argument. Class balance from those realms should NOT crossover into WvW because of the PvE elements. If you want PvP, go sPvP/tPvP.

vespers.1759:

Iavra.8510:

i have a ranger. our downed skills are awesome!

Well, your pet rezz is indeed pretty nice ^^ Outheals even multiple people hitting a downed ranger.

Underwater it can be a real pain…

terrible damage and pet res bugs out all the time. if it gets interrupted it fails.

Confirmed, but it doesn’t even need to get interrupted. Sometimes, for me, even in PvE, pet will come over when I hit downed pet heal, sit on top of my character and do nothing. If its not healing my character, then WTF is it doing?! I really don’t wanna know.

Necro downed skills on land aren’t that great either. The life leech (skill 1) usually isn’t enough to rally even when 1 person is attacking you and the fear (skill 3) seems to never work and then skill 2 is a poison cloud, freakin awesome. How is that supposed to help me now? At least we are resilient with a deathshroud build though.

EnRohbi.2187:

I don’t know how you consider our number 2 to be “premium”.
It doesn’t interrupt a stomp, it just moves you and stealths you so you don’t get hit by it.

By stealthing and moving during the stomp you in effect interrupt it. And side note… it interrupt’s multiple people are trying to stomp you at the same time. Some professions don’t have THAT luxury. Don’t act like you haven’t giggled when you rob 3 people of that first stomp. And as far as the second stomp, well the whole point of a number 2 downed state is to give yourself a couple of more seconds of opportunity. Either for you or your teammates to get back in the fight. Can we all agree we’ve seen more than a few people in WvW stomp a downed clone? So a mesmer’s #2 gives plenty of opportunity for a little more time.

I’m not saying Mesmer’s is the best, but it’s certainly one of the better.

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

EnRohbi.2187:

I don’t know how you consider our number 2 to be “premium”.
It doesn’t interrupt a stomp, it just moves you and stealths you so you don’t get hit by it.

By stealthing and moving during the stomp you in effect interrupt it. And side note… it interrupt’s multiple people are trying to stomp you at the same time. Some professions don’t have THAT luxury. Don’t act like you haven’t giggled when you rob 3 people of that first stomp. And as far as the second stomp, well the whole point of a number 2 downed state is to give yourself a couple of more seconds of opportunity. Either for you or your teammates to get back in the fight. Can we all agree we’ve seen more than a few people in WvW stomp a downed clone? So a mesmer’s #2 gives plenty of opportunity for a little more time.

I’m not saying Mesmer’s is the best, but it’s certainly one of the better.

“Effectively interrupted” is not the same as Interrupted. Don’t pretend I’m wrong about something because you want to make up your own definitions for the word “interrupted”. If you don’t port far enough away/come out of stealth before the stomp completes you’ll die from the stomp anyway, and that happens fairly frequently. I would like to know how you consider that to be one of the better Downed skills.

The only real advantage to our #2 downed skill compared to other classes is against Bads who don’t know to Stomp the second mesmer that reappears (As the first is always the clone).

Rofl, I got hit by this before, for 5.7k damage, I was like “WTF hit me” lol

EnRohbi.2187:

The only real advantage to our #2 downed skill compared to other classes is against Bads who don’t know to Stomp the second mesmer that reappears (As the first is always the clone).

This, the effectiveness of a Mesmer downed or not is increased quite a bit when you’re playing against bad players.

@pulsecodesgnl

“The same thing applies for Mesmer, if you use your 2 skill at the wrong time or it ports you to right next to where you were, you still die.”

Well if you use it the wrong time, it’s your own fault. If an Elem DD use number 2(the best in the game) too early, it’s basically wasted too. Doesn’t mean it’s bad because of this.

And fail port usually never happen. I use my mesmer in tPvP and it’s about 1 time out of 20.

“Or just wait until the second Mesmer pops up after stealth … because then they are dead. Clearly you aren’t very familiar with Mesmer downed skills.”

The mesmer won’t use number 2 until you try to finish him. If You try a finish, he will port. Now like you said, you wait until he pops out, you find him and finish. It’s interrupt. It’s will win you between 2-3 second before your next finish. That’s the point of every number 2 in the game.

How is waiting for mesmer to pop out of number 2 better then waiting for a necro fear to wear off? Both interrupt, both give you the same survival time. I understand mesmer downed state, I think you don’t understand my arguments. The necro you can stop it with virtually any stomp skill, the mesmer have only one counter.

“If I facepalm any harder I will have a permanent handmark. No mesmer does more damage in a downed state, and confusion only really matters if it stacks on you (we can’t stack very many unless you stand in front of us forever doing nothing). Spiking isn’t hard, or really, just go ranged if you want to damage since our 1 skill can’t hit ranged worth jack.”

Well when I burst one mesmer down early in a team fight, and I don’t get to finish them right away because of interrupt/chaos, they hit hard. I had some example of a mesmer doing it to me on frap, while have to check if I still have it.

“Mesmer’s do not hit for 1.5k, you being dumb and attacking quickly with confusion will do that. Either remove it or get ranged.”

I can’t provide you a screenshot right now, but I will try to find a shatter mesmer to provide me one. Or provide you one from tPvP, if you accept it. But the damage is higher in WvW, it would be a better example. I didn’t believe it ether when I saw the damage. I was like “What the hell is mind blast?” Then I did research. And I saw it happen again. It’s no rare occurance.

“This isn’t sPvP/tPvP, invalid argument. Class balance from those realms should NOT crossover into WvW because of the PvE elements. If you want PvP, go sPvP/tPvP”

*You are right, they have many difference. But I think most roamer will agree that mesmer are one of the best class for WvW. In Zerg they have portal. In roaming they are really solid. *

And with confusion unerfed in WvW, a mesmer shouldn’t have any issue.

Harbinger.9645:

EnRohbi.2187:

The only real advantage to our #2 downed skill compared to other classes is against Bads who don’t know to Stomp the second mesmer that reappears (As the first is always the clone).

This, the effectiveness of a Mesmer downed or not is increased quite a bit when you’re playing against bad players.

The number 2 is a port and a stealth.

It wins you between 2-3 second, even vs a good player. They can’t stomp you until they seee you.

The same way any number 2 work in the game.

Engineer number 2 interrupt for the same time as Mesmer number 2. Hell I would go farther and say mesmer interurpt for longer, since they port at random location. Our pull bring the ennemy TO US.

:)

Kardiamond.6952:

The number 2 is a port and a stealth.

It wins you between 2-3 second, even vs a good player. They can’t stomp you until they seee you.

The same way any number 2 work in the game.

Engineer number 2 interrupt for the same time as Mesmer number 2. Hell I would go farther and say mesmer interurpt for longer, since they port at random location. Our pull bring the ennemy TO US.

:)

So basically it’s like Rangers, except instead of healing via pet, you have another control skill AoE knockback with quite a bit of damage. Sounds like yours is just as situational as a Mesmer’s

Kardiamond.6952:

The number 2 is a port and a stealth.

It wins you between 2-3 second, even vs a good player. They can’t stomp you until they seee you.

I am well aware of how it works. However, even if it buys you 2-3 seconds which some times it doesn’t because lets be real people know how to AoE (since you know we are talking versus a good player) and even that can kill you…but for the sake of this argument let’s just say against a good player you get 2-3 seconds. You are still dead after that 2-3 seconds if they are a good player. I fail to see the problem here. I can tell you from lots and lots of personal mesmer downed state experience that these abilities are little more than a momentary inconvenience to my enemies if they are good. If they are bad…well…we shouldn’t balance this game around bad players, right?

You can go for a spike on a mesmer, have them use 2, wait, reposition as need be, then start a spike again and get them successfully before you’ll even see 3 come into action.

It’s a good ability for a 3 if they get to actually use it but really, this is not a big problem.

When you down a mesmer make sure the rogue clone isnt behind you when u try to finish him off….

Pirhana.8935:

When you down a mesmer make sure the rogue clone isnt behind you when u try to finish him off….

Well played…+1

EnRohbi.2187:

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

EnRohbi.2187:

I don’t know how you consider our number 2 to be “premium”.
It doesn’t interrupt a stomp, it just moves you and stealths you so you don’t get hit by it.

By stealthing and moving during the stomp you in effect interrupt it. And side note… it interrupt’s multiple people are trying to stomp you at the same time. Some professions don’t have THAT luxury. Don’t act like you haven’t giggled when you rob 3 people of that first stomp. And as far as the second stomp, well the whole point of a number 2 downed state is to give yourself a couple of more seconds of opportunity. Either for you or your teammates to get back in the fight. Can we all agree we’ve seen more than a few people in WvW stomp a downed clone? So a mesmer’s #2 gives plenty of opportunity for a little more time.

I’m not saying Mesmer’s is the best, but it’s certainly one of the better.

“Effectively interrupted” is not the same as Interrupted. Don’t pretend I’m wrong about something because you want to make up your own definitions for the word “interrupted”. If you don’t port far enough away/come out of stealth before the stomp completes you’ll die from the stomp anyway, and that happens fairly frequently. I would like to know how you consider that to be one of the better Downed skills.

The only real advantage to our #2 downed skill compared to other classes is against Bads who don’t know to Stomp the second mesmer that reappears (As the first is always the clone).

You’re right. Effectively interrupted isn’t the same as interrupted. So I’ll rephrase it. If I go to stomp you and you use your #2, my stomp is interrupted. You can bring up times you’re in a bad spot, or you mess up and don’t get away far enough to still get stomped, and while those do happen, they certainly aren’t the majority of times you use your number 2.

And your only advantage isn’t against bads. There’s nothing to negate that abilities usage(other than the previously mentioned bad luck/play). Other professions downed abilities can be negated by certain boons. Unless there is a “prevents stealth” boon I’m unaware of. And again your ability can interrupt simultaneous stomps, a few professions don’t have that luxury either.

IMO, the downed system should be taken out of WvW together or if not, at least normalized where EVERYONE has the same abilities.

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

IMO, the downed system should be taken out of WvW together or if not, at least normalized where EVERYONE has the same abilities.

I can’t see the future or anything, but it’s a safe bet neither of these options will come to pass.

using #2 on mesmer will always 100% gaurentee to stop the initial stomp, no matter where you get teleported to.

do people still not realize you cant be stomped when you’re stealthed?

mesmer downed state is very strong, but i dont think its a very good idea to nerf it, instead anet should just buff the downed states of warriors and engies, atleast make their #2 interrupt multiple people.

Downed state #3 summons a clone that casts Heartseeker once per 3 or so seconds.

If it did 6k to you, then it either crit from a glass cannon build, or you were low health.

If you stuck around long enough to get hit by a mesmer downed3, then either you didn’t wait for the second mesmer to appear after downed2 to stomp and stomped the clone giving them ample opportunity to cast downed3, or the green upscaled players in your zerg aren’t doing their job of finishing downed people off properly.

It’s also hilarious seeing thieves complain about mesmer downed3 in this thread, by the way. The same spell that you whine about is the same spell that you get to cast with essentially no cooldown or initial cast time lock as long as you have enough initiative.

The strongest downstate 2s are the ones that can’t be countered by stability, block, blind, and invuln. To argue otherwise is very silly.

wads.5730:

using #2 on mesmer will always 100% gaurentee to stop the initial stomp, no matter where you get teleported to.

And this is just plain wrong.

If I had a silver piece for each time I was downed, used #2 and teleported like 5 pixel further the left and still get finished off by the first stomp I could buy half a dozen precursors off the TP. <.<

Also, warriors are okay to deal about 1300 damage with their spammable #1 while downed? Yes? Sure? http://youtu.be/vQkhUOoltWA (from 5:20)

Harbinger.9645:

I am well aware of how it works. However, even if it buys you 2-3 seconds which some times it doesn’t because lets be real people know how to AoE (since you know we are talking versus a good player) and even that can kill you…but for the sake of this argument let’s just say against a good player you get 2-3 seconds. You are still dead after that 2-3 seconds if they are a good player. I fail to see the problem here. I can tell you from lots and lots of personal mesmer downed state experience that these abilities are little more than a momentary inconvenience to my enemies if they are good.

And this is an answer to everyone just pulling out this freaking (:)) answer every post.

How is wasting a player 2-3 second in a group fight, not an issue?

I will explain it with an example, so you all stop giving my this bullkitten (don’t want to sound rude, but people just don’t get it) reply.

2 engineer vs 2 mesmer.
Fight for 5 sec.
1 engineer get downed.
1 mesmer go for spiking, use invis or clone block or what ever methode to cancel the interrupt. Finish the engineer. 3 second.
Fight 2 on 1.

So for 5 sec it was 2on2. For 3 sec it was 1on1(1 mesmer finishing the eng). For the rest of the fight it was 2 mesmer vs 1 engineer.

Now lets swap the place.

2 mesmer vs 2 engineer.
Fight for 5 sec.
1 mesmer get downed.
1 engi go for the spike. Nothing to cancel the first interrupt, so you go for a stomp to waste is number 2. Waste 3 second.
Find him again after is number 2 stealth wear off. Stomp him again. Another 3-4 second.
Fight 2 on 1.

So for 5 sec it was 2 on 2. For 6-7 second it was 1on1. And for the rest it was 2on1.

So If you follow, that’s 3-4 guaranted more second you get to fight 1on1 even if you lsot your ally. That’s huge.

And any decent player know you should never DPS a mesmer. That’s way too much damage you’ll eat on your way.

Kardiamond.6952:

Harbinger.9645:

I am well aware of how it works. However, even if it buys you 2-3 seconds which some times it doesn’t because lets be real people know how to AoE (since you know we are talking versus a good player) and even that can kill you…but for the sake of this argument let’s just say against a good player you get 2-3 seconds. You are still dead after that 2-3 seconds if they are a good player. I fail to see the problem here. I can tell you from lots and lots of personal mesmer downed state experience that these abilities are little more than a momentary inconvenience to my enemies if they are good.

And this is an answer to everyone just pulling out this freaking (:)) answer every post.

How is wasting a player 2-3 second in a group fight, not an issue?

I will explain it with an example, so you all stop giving my this bullkitten (don’t want to sound rude, but people just don’t get it) reply.

2 engineer vs 2 mesmer.
Fight for 5 sec.
1 engineer get downed.
1 mesmer go for spiking, use invis or clone block or what ever methode to cancel the interrupt. Finish the engineer. 3 second.
Fight 2 on 1.

So for 5 sec it was 2on2. For 3 sec it was 1on1(1 mesmer finishing the eng). For the rest of the fight it was 2 mesmer vs 1 engineer.

Now lets swap the place.

2 mesmer vs 2 engineer.
Fight for 5 sec.
1 mesmer get downed.
1 engi go for the spike. Nothing to cancel the first interrupt, so you go for a stomp to waste is number 2. Waste 3 second.
Find him again after is number 2 stealth wear off. Stomp him again. Another 3-4 second.
Fight 2 on 1.

So for 5 sec it was 2 on 2. For 6-7 second it was 1on1. And for the rest it was 2on1.

So If you follow, that’s 3-4 guaranted more second you get to fight 1on1 even if you lsot your ally. That’s huge.

And any decent player know you should never DPS a mesmer. That’s way too much damage you’ll eat on your way.

Okay,
So I’m going to completely put aside the fact that you chose one, very, very specific situation out of millions of different possible combinations of battles and classes to prove your point.
I’m also going to put aside the fact you use Engineers (Who, as far as I’m aware, are renown for terrible Downed state) as your example, also just to prove your point.
I’m EVEN going to put aside the fact that no good Mesmer duo would ever even get Downed to an Engineer duo.

And say that your entire post is just an explanation of how Engineer’s down state needs to be buffed. Not why Mesmer’s needs to be nerfed.

You can replace any class in this case as :

2 Counterable interrupt vs 2 Uncounterable interrupt.

The same result.

And are you saying Mesmer are too strong for 2on2 with engineer? Mesmer are OP then? Because Engineer are a pretty balanced class right now, being top 4-6 in poll.

If I had a silver piece for each time I was downed, used #2 and teleported like 5 pixel further the left and still get finished off by the first stomp I could buy half a dozen precursors off the TP. <.<

Thiefs don’t move at all when using their #3 in downed state and still interrupt stomps. Seems like you used #2 too early and were visible again when the spike finished.

Although I think Mesmer has the most annoying/best down state, my glass necro’s #3 does more damage then theirs easy if you sit in it^^.

Jus a quick picture for a comparison~
Glass sPvP(lol) necro’s downed#3 crits for 1330 and pulses 5 times.
So 6,650 damage, not to mention it adds 20 seconds of poison which is another 2000k damage minimum at like no condition damage.
(why can’t we have these skills normally ;

So no, atleast compared to Necro’s Fetid Ground , Phantasmal Rogue isn’t OP^^

Kardiamond.6952:

You can replace any class in this case as :

2 Counterable interrupt vs 2 Uncounterable interrupt.

The same result.

And are you saying Mesmer are too strong for 2on2 with engineer? Mesmer are OP then? Because Engineer are a pretty balanced class right now, being top 4-6 in poll.

By that definition.

Rangers, Ele’s,Guardians,Mesmers,Thieves, and warriors all have uncounterable downed states, compared to the engineer..

In every scenerio you listed, one of those classes could interrupt a stomp quite easily in a 2 v 2 situation vs an enngineer.

Engineer is in no way, balanced, in fact, I would go so far as to say outside of a couple of gimmick builds they need to be buffed..hard..

Mesmer downed two is very ineffective vs good players.
Especially in an open world, good players have the option to reposition the fight, out of range of the mesmer, and range poke it to death. I have seen, fought, and done a stomp cancel just to bait a mesmer using 2.
Its very easy to find the real mesmer.
It is always the second icon to appear. Even with culling, If I see an option to finish a stomp and see no player, I use the option, because by the time it finishes the mesmer appears.
And one moore thing…..
Downed clones and clones in general are squishy..how in this situation did an engineer not AoE everything in a 240 radius?
And one more thing…
Why not make a scenerio of 2 guardians v 2 mesmers? or 2 ele’s vs 2 mesmers? You specifically chose one of the underplayed and underpar classes for what? It doesnt really help your arguement but brings to light the fact that engi downed is bad..Something everyone pretty much knows already.
And one more thing..

Make uncle some tea

( I watched some episodes of Jackie Chan adventures….Uncle goes HAM)

“Again, what’s new to the Op class? they will buff theif to the extent where we all play theif, than the nerf, will take place. That’s how i foresee it. Unfortunately, Nothing will happen.” ,Ranger.

Also, i’ve donwned mesmers; not too difficult, but theif? I can not shoot at something that isn’t visible for a long time. when i think i seen him, I lay motionless on the ground in tears of bl—d.

@Solori

I don’t know how to explain it to you then.

I fail to understand how a number 2 that interrupt without counter (mesmer,elem,thief) is better then the best counterable number 2 (guardian). Guardian have the best number 2 between Ranger,engineer,necromancer,warrior. So I think them as an example. No engineer, Guardian.

Yet if they have more then 5 entites around them, if they are blinded, if the stomper have stability, if the invul stomp him, he is dead.

But Mesmer, Elem and Thief have guaranted escape. You shouldn’t fail it if you don’t push it too soon.

That’s the diference between a good Interrupt, and an average one.

Nothing else matter for the number 2.

Kardiamond.6952:

@Solori

I don’t know how to explain it to you then.

I fail to understand how a number 2 that interrupt without counter (mesmer,elem,thief) is better then the best counterable number 2 (guardian). Guardian have the best number 2 between Ranger,engineer,necromancer,warrior. So I think them as an example. No engineer, Guardian.

Yet if they have more then 5 entites around them, if they are blinded, if the stomper have stability, if the invul stomp him, he is dead.

But Mesmer, Elem and Thief have guaranted escape. You shouldn’t fail it if you don’t push it too soon.

That’s the diference between a good Interrupt, and an average one.

Nothing else matter for the number 2.

Mesmer and Thief #2 is not guaranteed. The Mesmer one a lot of the time will teleport you still in range of the stomp, I’ve gotten a lot of spikes this way on Mesmers.

Secondly the Thief one is easily countered with any teleport or shadow step, you can also do this against a Mesmer if the timing is right.

@Dank

Mesmer 2 also stealth, so if you time it right, you shouldn’t have any issue with blink stomp.

P.S : I’m missing you guys already

@Solori

Also, out of subject.

Engineer only having some gimmick build? Not balanced? Are you yet another player then underestimate engineer? Sure if you are a mesmer, you are a hard counter to most build.

But we have some solide build that, in my opinion, are among the top WvW build around.

Here is a video of one of our good WvW roamer, fighting Osicat, the creator of the osicat shatter build for mesmer.

I don’t see his gimmick build doing so bad

Engineer are a really viable class, tho we have to work really hard to obtain it.

But yeah, our downed state is bad.

Kardiamond.6952:

Yet if they have more then 5 entites around them, if they are blinded, if the stomper have stability, if the invul stomp him, he is dead.

But Mesmer, Elem and Thief have guaranted escape. You shouldn’t fail it if you don’t push it too soon.

.

But none of that applies to the 2 v 2 scenerio you explained.

Mesmer’s dont usually trait for a blind (shatter mesmers I have seen dont even consider this trait because their are better ones), have no access to stability, and pretty much no one uses distortion to stomp ( especially if your a glass shatter mesmer), the next best option would be stealth.. but a guardian can still knock you back.
In a practical situation..using the basic 2 v 2 scenerio you listed, other classes can cause a mesmer some form of interruption that also buys them 2-3 seconds of time.

I understand what your saying. Some classes have a better 2 then others..But only the 3 listed have one that works against everyone, and only 2 of those 3 can end up in utter failure or put you in a worse position.
The other classes need a revamp..
I think I said this :I

Kardiamond.6952:

@Dank

Mesmer 2 also stealth, so if you time it right, you shouldn’t have any issue with blink stomp.

The stealth doesn’t matter if you port in range of the stomp, it still kills you. This happens on my Mesmer constantly. And since you are at the mercy of RNG with the port, your complaints for 2 are even more ridiculous.

Yes we know Engi’s need downed skill buffs, that doesn’t mean everyone else needs nerfs, leave this thread alone now please.

Kardiamond.6952:

@Dank

Mesmer 2 also stealth, so if you time it right, you shouldn’t have any issue with blink stomp.

If the stomp is in mid finishing animation, where the character has lifted off the ground.
If you are in range..you still die..stealth or not….seeing as how stomp is a channel and if your in range channel skills still hit you no matter what.

@Solori

Is it different from Thief number 3?

Because if they stealth when I try to finish them, it cancel my finisher.

It might be my mistake, but It didn’t happen like that to me.

@Pulse

Mesmer have a top 3 downed state, I’m not saying it should be nerfed, but all downed state should be balanced.

@Solori

Mesmer do have acces to stability. and stealth still work on 4 class. You have to sacrifice to get a safe stomp, but that’s like that for everyone.

If the downed player is stealthed when the stomp lands it will not go through. This is basic stuff guys and also why thieves are the best combat rezzer with shadow refuge.

My main WvW profession is a Mesmer and I can’t remember when the last time I actually cast iRogue when downed. I am normally dead from being beat on, planted on, or rezzed by the time it comes off cooldown. It does humor me though that some people work really hard at trying to find a new ability to complain about each and every week on these forums.

Kardiamond.6952:

@Solori

Is it different from Thief number 3?

Because if they stealth when I try to finish them, it cancel my finisher.

It might be my mistake, but It didn’t happen like that to me.

@Solori

Mesmer do have acces to stability. and stealth still work on 4 class. You have to sacrifice to get a safe stomp, but that’s like that for everyone.

I believe the thief 3 blinds you, It also happens on my theif where using the 3 interrupts an enemy.
Though no one seems to try and stomp a thief usually, every encounter i have had has been the enemy just straight DPS’ing me to death. Which in that case is probably a better option.
not so much on the mesmer where, I have been downed even in stealth because it ported me right next to the person stomping..
the RNG really sucks.

You are right, I apologize.

When I read mesmer spike I assumed that that we were talking about a shatter mesmer. Which doesnt use mantra’s. Mantra’s in pvp are also meh to me, because having the option of a blink,stealth, or a clone generator without the charge is a lot more useful. I havent seen a very successful full mantra mesmer that has held its own vs a good player, because of the lack of stealth, reliable shatter up time, and general lack of mind games.
So i did discredit that build, I apologize.
On the other hand.
If you are fighting two mesmer’s and one of them is a mantra build.
That mesmer is pretty much going to be a focus target, and will most likely be the first to die, even before the engineer’s (assuming one is bunker and one is 100n a mesmer without stealth is like a thief that doesnt ever use C&D it wont live very long.. :I )
So then for your second situation, RNG is either going to help you, or hurt you, but you as two ranged characters, especially one that outputs the damage of a 100n build can AoE the area..kill the clone..and one of you can pop elixer S to stomp, or hope that the RNG is in your favor and get stealth yourself or stability.

But you are right on the mesmer stability part, its just not common to see a good mesmer beat other good players with a full mantra build, specifically one that is used to break stuns, when you have better options.

@Solori

Are you sure about the blind? Like Accelerion said, Shadow refuge also cancel stomp.

I fought a team in tPvP that kept using this tactic.

And Shadow Refuge doesn’t cast blind.

Kardiamond.6952:

@Solori

Are you sure about the blind? Like Accelerion said, Shadow refuge also cancel stomp.

I fought a team in tPvP that kept using this tactic.

And Shadow Refuge doesn’t cast blind.

Doesn’t really matter whether it blinds or not, the fact is, even if you get skill 2 off with a Mesmer it does NOT guarantee you won’t be spiked/stomped, whatever. If your skill 2 ports you anywhere close to your original position, you will die, stealth or not.

Whether this is a bug or is intentional is a different matter, this is how it currently functions though, and survival is based on the RNG of landing in the right position because you cannot chose where you port to.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Kardiamond.6952:

@Solori

Are you sure about the blind? Like Accelerion said, Shadow refuge also cancel stomp.

I fought a team in tPvP that kept using this tactic.

And Shadow Refuge doesn’t cast blind.

Doesn’t really matter whether it blinds or not, the fact is, even if you get skill 2 off with a Mesmer it does NOT guarantee you won’t be spiked/stomped, whatever. If your skill 2 ports you anywhere close to your original position, you will die, stealth or not.

Whether this is a bug or is intentional is a different matter, this is how it currently functions though, and survival is based on the RNG of landing in the right position because you cannot chose where you port to.

using #2 as mesmer GUARANTEES a stomp interrupt, no matter where you randomly teleport to. this is a fact.

if you still get finished, then it means you are doing it wrong, you are either attacking after you stealth, which unstealths you, or you are using the skill too early.

if you use #2 AFTER the person starts the stomp animation, then you will NEVER unstealth before the animation finishes.