There isn’t going to be any intrusive work done… if I recall correctly their methodology for DBL was to make low cost changes with big impact. This was justified by “because it is a live game”.
I’d wager that if we want a larger overhaul, which takes more than a trivial amount of dev time, it will not happen before bulk of the priority changes we voted are well underway, released or close to being released. Even then if they stick to their mantra it would not happen unless there was a poll and it was voted for. Structural overhaul of the map certainly qualifies as a major change.
So, until such a time the kind of changes we will likely see are the sort of stuff we have already seen or already know about.
THAT was why players wanted it to go back to Beta. The topography had to be made playable for all classes in all zones and that isn’t going to happen if it stays in the live game. Now it isn’t going to go back to beta because that was never an option to actually make the map playable for a PvP zone for all classes…
what classes arent playable cuz of topography?
I know Rev CoR doesn’t work on kitten near any unlevel ground. Unless that’s been fixed within the last couple of months.
sounds like something that the wvw team doesnt need to be held responsible for. specifically, that is the realm of the balance team. and they seem more interested in pvp, where this is easily also an issue.
time to make the hitbox fully 3d.
So, you’re saying everyone involved in making the DBL and all 4 HoT maps and creating a new class was oblivious to this?
yeah prolly. balance isnt their department.
maybe the proper people with the knowledge or connections dont even play rev in a zerg. maybe it works on the dev client. maybe its been addressed for the next quarterly update but theyre tightlipped as usual, especially if its a thing on the known issue tracker. maybe not.
I would have thought it was the fault of both, class designers for making aoe abilities that don;t work when the topography changes and map designers for not designing maps in accordance with the was the combat engine works. The PvE maps must have similar issues due to their complex topography.
its the fault of whoever designed the skill’kittenbox. they didnt take topography into account, they made the hit box 2d, and they made it end at walls (good) OR when the terrain at a certain elevation ends (bad). had they made it a rectangular prism instead of a line, it could be more resilient, but would prolly need some upgrade in tech on the back end to actually show the ground animations properly.
the map designers have nothing to do with that, they are making the world prettier and more interesting by adding slopes or different levels to play on and doing their jobs exceedingly well, but prolly need to converse with hardcore wvw players and or the wvw dev team about how to incorporate the elements that make a map fun to fight other players on instead of just to wander around and look at.
That is a problem with how they are designing the maps then. When designing a map for a PvP game mode, they need to think about how every inch of that map works to benefit each of the classes play styles and skills to enhance the player experience and game play. That is how you make a great map rather than just a “meh” map. The " pretty skin" is the after thought for enhancing game play for a PvP game mode. They should bring in the " pretty skin team" after they already have the topography and objectives of the map designed to benefit the game play. The aesthetics should only be added as long as they do not interfere with game play in any way. Otherwise they are designing the map backwards.
it really isnt a map design problem.
look at forest of niflhel, it has ramps and is still a map used in all pvp tournaments.
its an issue with designing hitboxes and how they interact with terrain.
JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions
There isn’t going to be any intrusive work done… if I recall correctly their methodology for DBL was to make low cost changes with big impact. This was justified by “because it is a live game”.
I’d wager that if we want a larger overhaul, which takes more than a trivial amount of dev time, it will not happen before bulk of the priority changes we voted are well underway, released or close to being released. Even then if they stick to their mantra it would not happen unless there was a poll and it was voted for. Structural overhaul of the map certainly qualifies as a major change.
So, until such a time the kind of changes we will likely see are the sort of stuff we have already seen or already know about.
THAT was why players wanted it to go back to Beta. The topography had to be made playable for all classes in all zones and that isn’t going to happen if it stays in the live game. Now it isn’t going to go back to beta because that was never an option to actually make the map playable for a PvP zone for all classes…
what classes arent playable cuz of topography?
I know Rev CoR doesn’t work on kitten near any unlevel ground. Unless that’s been fixed within the last couple of months.
sounds like something that the wvw team doesnt need to be held responsible for. specifically, that is the realm of the balance team. and they seem more interested in pvp, where this is easily also an issue.
time to make the hitbox fully 3d.
So, you’re saying everyone involved in making the DBL and all 4 HoT maps and creating a new class was oblivious to this?
yeah prolly. balance isnt their department.
maybe the proper people with the knowledge or connections dont even play rev in a zerg. maybe it works on the dev client. maybe its been addressed for the next quarterly update but theyre tightlipped as usual, especially if its a thing on the known issue tracker. maybe not.
I would have thought it was the fault of both, class designers for making aoe abilities that don;t work when the topography changes and map designers for not designing maps in accordance with the was the combat engine works. The PvE maps must have similar issues due to their complex topography.
its the fault of whoever designed the skill’kittenbox. they didnt take topography into account, they made the hit box 2d, and they made it end at walls (good) OR when the terrain at a certain elevation ends (bad). had they made it a rectangular prism instead of a line, it could be more resilient, but would prolly need some upgrade in tech on the back end to actually show the ground animations properly.
the map designers have nothing to do with that, they are making the world prettier and more interesting by adding slopes or different levels to play on and doing their jobs exceedingly well, but prolly need to converse with hardcore wvw players and or the wvw dev team about how to incorporate the elements that make a map fun to fight other players on instead of just to wander around and look at.
That is a problem with how they are designing the maps then. When designing a map for a PvP game mode, they need to think about how every inch of that map works to benefit each of the classes play styles and skills to enhance the player experience and game play. That is how you make a great map rather than just a “meh” map. The " pretty skin" is the after thought for enhancing game play for a PvP game mode. They should bring in the " pretty skin team" after they already have the topography and objectives of the map designed to benefit the game play. The aesthetics should only be added as long as they do not interfere with game play in any way. Otherwise they are designing the map backwards.
it really isnt a map design problem.
look at forest of niflhel, it has ramps and is still a map used in all pvp tournaments.
its an issue with designing hitboxes and how they interact with terrain.
Yea.. I am not a fan of that map either, but let’s be honest here, most of the other maps are just worse. You don’t compare maps on this game, you compare maps of this game to other games that design maps in different ways.
It just isn’t about hit boxes either, it is about designing the map around the player experience. from the point they log in, every inch of it until they log out. Keeping players engaged in Nonstop PvP action the entire time they are on it was not even a thought.
[KILL]Killing Tiers Leader [TOON] Toons of Terror Leader [NEWS This Just In Leader
WvW / PVP ONLY
It’s not the map design that’s the problem with that skill, I’ve seen it screw up in pve as well, with mobs on small hills and don’t get hit. The only thing that obeys terrain angles properly is in air projectiles, projectiles along the ground tend to screw up sometimes because it only goes in a straight forward path.
Another derailing post. ^^ North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed.
“Game over man, Game Over!” – RIP Bill
There isn’t going to be any intrusive work done… if I recall correctly their methodology for DBL was to make low cost changes with big impact. This was justified by “because it is a live game”.
I’d wager that if we want a larger overhaul, which takes more than a trivial amount of dev time, it will not happen before bulk of the priority changes we voted are well underway, released or close to being released. Even then if they stick to their mantra it would not happen unless there was a poll and it was voted for. Structural overhaul of the map certainly qualifies as a major change.
So, until such a time the kind of changes we will likely see are the sort of stuff we have already seen or already know about.
THAT was why players wanted it to go back to Beta. The topography had to be made playable for all classes in all zones and that isn’t going to happen if it stays in the live game. Now it isn’t going to go back to beta because that was never an option to actually make the map playable for a PvP zone for all classes…
what classes arent playable cuz of topography?
I know Rev CoR doesn’t work on kitten near any unlevel ground. Unless that’s been fixed within the last couple of months.
sounds like something that the wvw team doesnt need to be held responsible for. specifically, that is the realm of the balance team. and they seem more interested in pvp, where this is easily also an issue.
time to make the hitbox fully 3d.
So, you’re saying everyone involved in making the DBL and all 4 HoT maps and creating a new class was oblivious to this?
yeah prolly. balance isnt their department.
maybe the proper people with the knowledge or connections dont even play rev in a zerg. maybe it works on the dev client. maybe its been addressed for the next quarterly update but theyre tightlipped as usual, especially if its a thing on the known issue tracker. maybe not.
I would have thought it was the fault of both, class designers for making aoe abilities that don;t work when the topography changes and map designers for not designing maps in accordance with the was the combat engine works. The PvE maps must have similar issues due to their complex topography.
its the fault of whoever designed the skill’kittenbox. they didnt take topography into account, they made the hit box 2d, and they made it end at walls (good) OR when the terrain at a certain elevation ends (bad). had they made it a rectangular prism instead of a line, it could be more resilient, but would prolly need some upgrade in tech on the back end to actually show the ground animations properly.
the map designers have nothing to do with that, they are making the world prettier and more interesting by adding slopes or different levels to play on and doing their jobs exceedingly well, but prolly need to converse with hardcore wvw players and or the wvw dev team about how to incorporate the elements that make a map fun to fight other players on instead of just to wander around and look at.
That is a problem with how they are designing the maps then. When designing a map for a PvP game mode, they need to think about how every inch of that map works to benefit each of the classes play styles and skills to enhance the player experience and game play. That is how you make a great map rather than just a “meh” map. The " pretty skin" is the after thought for enhancing game play for a PvP game mode. They should bring in the " pretty skin team" after they already have the topography and objectives of the map designed to benefit the game play. The aesthetics should only be added as long as they do not interfere with game play in any way. Otherwise they are designing the map backwards.
it really isnt a map design problem.
look at forest of niflhel, it has ramps and is still a map used in all pvp tournaments.
its an issue with designing hitboxes and how they interact with terrain.
Yea.. I am not a fan of that map either, but let’s be honest here, most of the other maps are just worse. You don’t compare maps on this game, you compare maps of this game to other games that design maps in different ways.
It just isn’t about hit boxes either, it is about designing the map around the player experience. from the point they log in, every inch of it until they log out. Keeping players engaged in Nonstop PvP action the entire time they are on it was not even a thought.
dont mix your issues. a certain class being unplayable cuz of bad hitbox design is a different issue from a lack of wvw player / wvw dev input on map design and they are entirely unrelated.
JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions
There isn’t going to be any intrusive work done… if I recall correctly their methodology for DBL was to make low cost changes with big impact. This was justified by “because it is a live game”.
I’d wager that if we want a larger overhaul, which takes more than a trivial amount of dev time, it will not happen before bulk of the priority changes we voted are well underway, released or close to being released. Even then if they stick to their mantra it would not happen unless there was a poll and it was voted for. Structural overhaul of the map certainly qualifies as a major change.
So, until such a time the kind of changes we will likely see are the sort of stuff we have already seen or already know about.
THAT was why players wanted it to go back to Beta. The topography had to be made playable for all classes in all zones and that isn’t going to happen if it stays in the live game. Now it isn’t going to go back to beta because that was never an option to actually make the map playable for a PvP zone for all classes…
what classes arent playable cuz of topography?
I know Rev CoR doesn’t work on kitten near any unlevel ground. Unless that’s been fixed within the last couple of months.
sounds like something that the wvw team doesnt need to be held responsible for. specifically, that is the realm of the balance team. and they seem more interested in pvp, where this is easily also an issue.
time to make the hitbox fully 3d.
So, you’re saying everyone involved in making the DBL and all 4 HoT maps and creating a new class was oblivious to this?
yeah prolly. balance isnt their department.
maybe the proper people with the knowledge or connections dont even play rev in a zerg. maybe it works on the dev client. maybe its been addressed for the next quarterly update but theyre tightlipped as usual, especially if its a thing on the known issue tracker. maybe not.
I would have thought it was the fault of both, class designers for making aoe abilities that don;t work when the topography changes and map designers for not designing maps in accordance with the was the combat engine works. The PvE maps must have similar issues due to their complex topography.
its the fault of whoever designed the skill’kittenbox. they didnt take topography into account, they made the hit box 2d, and they made it end at walls (good) OR when the terrain at a certain elevation ends (bad). had they made it a rectangular prism instead of a line, it could be more resilient, but would prolly need some upgrade in tech on the back end to actually show the ground animations properly.
the map designers have nothing to do with that, they are making the world prettier and more interesting by adding slopes or different levels to play on and doing their jobs exceedingly well, but prolly need to converse with hardcore wvw players and or the wvw dev team about how to incorporate the elements that make a map fun to fight other players on instead of just to wander around and look at.
That is a problem with how they are designing the maps then. When designing a map for a PvP game mode, they need to think about how every inch of that map works to benefit each of the classes play styles and skills to enhance the player experience and game play. That is how you make a great map rather than just a “meh” map. The " pretty skin" is the after thought for enhancing game play for a PvP game mode. They should bring in the " pretty skin team" after they already have the topography and objectives of the map designed to benefit the game play. The aesthetics should only be added as long as they do not interfere with game play in any way. Otherwise they are designing the map backwards.
it really isnt a map design problem.
look at forest of niflhel, it has ramps and is still a map used in all pvp tournaments.
its an issue with designing hitboxes and how they interact with terrain.
Yea.. I am not a fan of that map either, but let’s be honest here, most of the other maps are just worse. You don’t compare maps on this game, you compare maps of this game to other games that design maps in different ways.
It just isn’t about hit boxes either, it is about designing the map around the player experience. from the point they log in, every inch of it until they log out. Keeping players engaged in Nonstop PvP action the entire time they are on it was not even a thought.
dont mix your issues. a certain class being unplayable cuz of bad hitbox design is a different issue from a lack of wvw player / wvw dev input on map design and they are entirely unrelated.
No they are definitely related. If the map was actually designed with how all classes played on that map as the focus and how the different areas and objectives were designed to enhanced every class’s skills and abilities in the game there wouldn’t be these issues. How " pretty" a map is in a PvP zone should be the afterthought. The primary focus should have been the player experience out of spawn until the player leaves that map. The map is supposed to be designed to keep players engaged in nonstop PvP action the entire time they are on it every class, every skill. You worry about the skin after that is taken care of, and ONLY if it doesn’t interfere with game play. You don’t put even a tree there if it is going to block skill usage. Pretty <Playable.
If every class was tested properly on the map to enhance their player experience they would have known this already.
A map should start focused on the player experience straight out of spawn, 3 seconds hit an objective, why do you want to fight over that objective? ( have to have a good reason to want to fight over objectives, both personal and for the team) How does that objective increase game play of each class in the game? How does each classes skills work to their benefit in that zone? What strategic value does that objective have to other objectives? Can the objective be attacked from multiple directions in numerous ways to increase strategic options? Is there enough space to fight in the area for all types of combat? 3 seconds.. next objective.. rinse and repeat. The DBL was the opposite of that. The game play and player experience was an after thought when it is the skin that should be the afterthought.
If they had designed it that way from the beginning, there would not be a hit box problem.
[KILL]Killing Tiers Leader [TOON] Toons of Terror Leader [NEWS This Just In Leader
WvW / PVP ONLY
There isn’t going to be any intrusive work done… if I recall correctly their methodology for DBL was to make low cost changes with big impact. This was justified by “because it is a live game”.
I’d wager that if we want a larger overhaul, which takes more than a trivial amount of dev time, it will not happen before bulk of the priority changes we voted are well underway, released or close to being released. Even then if they stick to their mantra it would not happen unless there was a poll and it was voted for. Structural overhaul of the map certainly qualifies as a major change.
So, until such a time the kind of changes we will likely see are the sort of stuff we have already seen or already know about.
THAT was why players wanted it to go back to Beta. The topography had to be made playable for all classes in all zones and that isn’t going to happen if it stays in the live game. Now it isn’t going to go back to beta because that was never an option to actually make the map playable for a PvP zone for all classes…
what classes arent playable cuz of topography?
I know Rev CoR doesn’t work on kitten near any unlevel ground. Unless that’s been fixed within the last couple of months.
sounds like something that the wvw team doesnt need to be held responsible for. specifically, that is the realm of the balance team. and they seem more interested in pvp, where this is easily also an issue.
time to make the hitbox fully 3d.
So, you’re saying everyone involved in making the DBL and all 4 HoT maps and creating a new class was oblivious to this?
yeah prolly. balance isnt their department.
maybe the proper people with the knowledge or connections dont even play rev in a zerg. maybe it works on the dev client. maybe its been addressed for the next quarterly update but theyre tightlipped as usual, especially if its a thing on the known issue tracker. maybe not.
I would have thought it was the fault of both, class designers for making aoe abilities that don;t work when the topography changes and map designers for not designing maps in accordance with the was the combat engine works. The PvE maps must have similar issues due to their complex topography.
its the fault of whoever designed the skill’kittenbox. they didnt take topography into account, they made the hit box 2d, and they made it end at walls (good) OR when the terrain at a certain elevation ends (bad). had they made it a rectangular prism instead of a line, it could be more resilient, but would prolly need some upgrade in tech on the back end to actually show the ground animations properly.
the map designers have nothing to do with that, they are making the world prettier and more interesting by adding slopes or different levels to play on and doing their jobs exceedingly well, but prolly need to converse with hardcore wvw players and or the wvw dev team about how to incorporate the elements that make a map fun to fight other players on instead of just to wander around and look at.
That is a problem with how they are designing the maps then. When designing a map for a PvP game mode, they need to think about how every inch of that map works to benefit each of the classes play styles and skills to enhance the player experience and game play. That is how you make a great map rather than just a “meh” map. The " pretty skin" is the after thought for enhancing game play for a PvP game mode. They should bring in the " pretty skin team" after they already have the topography and objectives of the map designed to benefit the game play. The aesthetics should only be added as long as they do not interfere with game play in any way. Otherwise they are designing the map backwards.
it really isnt a map design problem.
look at forest of niflhel, it has ramps and is still a map used in all pvp tournaments.
its an issue with designing hitboxes and how they interact with terrain.
Yea.. I am not a fan of that map either, but let’s be honest here, most of the other maps are just worse. You don’t compare maps on this game, you compare maps of this game to other games that design maps in different ways.
It just isn’t about hit boxes either, it is about designing the map around the player experience. from the point they log in, every inch of it until they log out. Keeping players engaged in Nonstop PvP action the entire time they are on it was not even a thought.
dont mix your issues. a certain class being unplayable cuz of bad hitbox design is a different issue from a lack of wvw player / wvw dev input on map design and they are entirely unrelated.
No they are definitely related. If the map was actually designed with how all classes played on that map as the focus and how the different areas and objectives were designed to enhanced every class’s skills and abilities in the game there wouldn’t be these issues. How " pretty" a map is in a PvP zone should be the afterthought. The primary focus should have been the player experience out of spawn until the player leaves that map. The map is supposed to be designed to keep players engaged in nonstop PvP action the entire time they are on it every class, every skill. You worry about the skin after that is taken care of, and ONLY if it doesn’t interfere with game play. You don’t put even a tree there if it is going to block skill usage. Pretty <Playable.
If every class was tested properly on the map to enhance their player experience they would have known this already.
A map should start focused on the player experience straight out of spawn, 3 seconds hit an objective, why do you want to fight over that objective? ( have to have a good reason to want to fight over objectives, both personal and for the team) How does that objective increase game play of each class in the game? How does each classes skills work to their benefit in that zone? What strategic value does that objective have to other objectives? Can the objective be attacked from multiple directions in numerous ways to increase strategic options? Is there enough space to fight in the area for all types of combat? 3 seconds.. next objective.. rinse and repeat. The DBL was the opposite of that. The game play and player experience was an after thought when it is the skin that should be the afterthought.
If they had designed it that way from the beginning, there would not be a hit box problem.
lol i can do this all day.
no they arent related.
write another page long diatribe, it doesnt make you any more right.
JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions