Guild Wars 2

I don’t know about lower tiers but in tier 1 it is easy to see how coordination and strategy massively impact a Zerg fight. Even with half the numbers a guild Zerg that is coordinated can wipe a disorganized pug Zerg 9 times out of 10. In tier 1 mindlessly running through will likely get you wiped. My guild has skill rotations, we utilize choke points, and numerous other tactics like dodge rolling through the first time so the enemy blows there skills then turning around and demolishing their squishy back line. Also against other guild zergs adapting to your enemies tactits is key. Yesterday we ran into an Agg Zerg composed of 15 guardians 6 warriors and the rest were mesmers, else’s and necros, around 30 total players. By the way Agg is good so they could have wiped a pug Zerg of 50 people no problem. This means there Zerg has little condition removal so we focused conditions and boon ripped leaving them vulnerable then faked a push making them blow there CC’s and pushed through and wiped them. In an earlier confrontation we didn’t know there team comp and they crushed us. Strategy and quick reaction both play a huge part in fighting an organized enemy. We have a name for mindless zergs, they are called loot bags. Don’t get me wrong though, zergs of 60+ can use there numbers to overwhelm and cause ridiculous skill lag that makes strategy useless.

PariahX.6970:

plegnic.8324:

Suppose a total of 600 people are in the map (is 200/team a decent estimate?) that’s 180,000 condition stacks updating every second.

Goodness no try half that, maybe 300 per map but either way, still a decent number and point well made. I think for many simply not knowing the numbers they are dealing with compounds the frustration and we are left to guess how many of us are out there running around. IMO they should just lower the WvW map population caps to whatever they can do the calcs for in that worst case scenario, find a happy friendly way to rebalanced the world populations and then start doing the behind the scenes work get those numbers higher.

You’re right: all of those numbers are a little higher than they would ever really be, I was just trying to show how those calculations very quickly get unmanageable. I’m sure (at least I’d like to believe…) they are constantly tweaking the map limits and the gw2 engine to reduce the amount of skill lag and to be able to make WvW more and more enjoyable as time goes by. I love it now, so I can only imagine it will be more fantastic as they improve it!

plegnic.8324:

From what I understand, the biggest reason for AoE cap is the calculation cost. It’s easy to think, “But there’s only 12 conditions.. how hard can that be to compute?!” The problem comes in when you look at how conditions are implemented and how many people there are. ANet needs to consider the absolute worst case because it could potentially happen: each player has 25 stacks of 12 conditions which is 300 stacks. Each of those stacks has an individual timer that updates every tick(one second). Suppose a total of 600 people are in the map (is 200/team a decent estimate?) that’s 180,000 condition stacks updating every second. Not to mention player positions, chat, camp/tower/keep statuses, siege has health, doors/walls have health, and npcs/monsters can receive conditions too… Then each and every client has to be updated constantly with the new information. This is a close to worst-case scenario but you can see how it can get out of hand very quickly even with smaller battles.

P.S. This is way over-simplified. I know not all conditions are implemented like this but they still take additional calculations when new stacks are added.

DAOC with NF had much bigger RVR maps, and game calculated (you could get it at any moment using /stat command) your amount healed, realm points earned, kills, deaths and few other stats for each player. Each animist could put up to around 60 pets, and theurgists were pretty good with putting up lots of pets too.

Pentium 4 based Xeon processors at 1.4GHz just came to market. Skills were positional (and there were MANY of them…game at the end had 46 classes I think)

AOE was very powerful and also uncapped, killed 40-50 people few times with healer/warlock duo in just few seconds.

I don’t know about lower tiers but in tier 1 it is easy to see how coordination and strategy massively impact a Zerg fight. Even with half the numbers a guild Zerg that is coordinated can wipe a disorganized pug Zerg 9 times out of 10. In tier 1 mindlessly running through will likely get you wiped. My guild has skill rotations, we utilize choke points, and numerous other tactics like dodge rolling through the first time so the enemy blows there skills then turning around and demolishing their squishy back line. Also against other guild zergs adapting to your enemies tactits is key. Yesterday we ran into an Agg Zerg composed of 15 guardians 6 warriors and the rest were mesmers, else’s and necros, around 30 total players. By the way Agg is good so they could have wiped a pug Zerg of 50 people no problem. This means there Zerg has little condition removal so we focused conditions and boon ripped leaving them vulnerable then faked a push making them blow there CC’s and pushed through and wiped them. In an earlier confrontation we didn’t know there team comp and they crushed us. Strategy and quick reaction both play a huge part in fighting an organized enemy. We have a name for mindless zergs, they are called loot bags. Don’t get me wrong though, zergs of 60+ can use there numbers to overwhelm and cause ridiculous skill lag that makes strategy useless.

I hate to be “that guy” but the fantasy of the small group taking down a zerg is just that….a fantasy most of the time. Numbers tend to trump all else in this game, even superior play. (It’s kinda funny seeing a huge zerg of people charging at you in WvW and just swinging at the air as they run at you, because “1-spam” in a melee train is the prevailing zerg strategy most of the time)

All you have to do is look at the Tier 1 scores and PPT most days to see that JQ’s fantasy of being the “small, elite team” just doesn’t beat the coverage and numbers of BG/SoR.

It is kind of self explanatory why commanders ask you to stack. It’s because a zerg is weak if it’s all spread out. It means less people get buffs and also damage is dispersed all over the place instead of concentrated on one spot. Also it is to regroup the zerg. You don’t want to run in a fight with 5 people and have a tail of 50 people coming bit by bit behind you. You wan’t to hit with full force of 40-50 people in 1 spot doing damage. If you run around in a big ball and spam skills around you the zerg will do a lot of dmg. The boons will also be easier to get as you are close to other players. It’s sad but that’s the truth with wvw. Fighting in wvw is just a bunch of people running around in a tight group spamming skills.

WvW in this game is broken beyond the point of no return. anet has somehow managed to repeatedly make this game worse. there are so many huge issues that needed to be resolved months ago. WvW is a joke and cant be taken seriously no matter how hard you try.

joshisanonymous.5270:

Xsorus.2507:

GW2 is anti small man, pro zerg..

Anet talks about how they wanted to emulate DAOC, but it becomes pretty obvious when playing that they have ZERO idea how DAOC really was…and I question that any of them ever played the game to begin with.

Uh, multiple lead designers for GW2 worked on DAoC. Pretty sure they’ve played it.

Multiple Lead designers played DAOC, I didn’t recognize anyone on the team from Mythic though

DevonCarver.5370:

Just wanted to hop in and mention, again, that the AoE cap on player skills is a technical limitation. Were we to increase that, skill lag would get considerably worse.

More and more it sounds like you really bet on the wrong horse by utilizing the old GW engine. Maybe divert some resources into properly fixing and future-proofing it? Make that one of your milestones for the first two post-release years please.

IT IS A TRAP MAN.

LAST TIME I STACK WITH A COMMANDER HE STOLE MY KIDNEY AND I WAKE UP IN THE ICE OF A BORDERLAND

Grimwolf.7163:

If removing the AoE cap isn’t an option, maybe add back body blocking.
I thought it was full blown kittened when they announced that wouldn’t be in GW2.
Then it would be literally impossible to stack on top of each other. Even trying to stay excessively close would make it too difficult to move.

How game changing this would be, oh wow

Might actually be nice!

Grimwolf.7163:

If removing the AoE cap isn’t an option, maybe add back body blocking.
I thought it was full blown kittened when they announced that wouldn’t be in GW2.
Then it would be literally impossible to stack on top of each other. Even trying to stay excessively close would make it too difficult to move.

If you think skill lag is bad, wait until they add body blocking and the game becomes a turn by turn strategy game where each player makes his move sequentially.

DevonCarver.5370:

Just wanted to hop in and mention, again, that the AoE cap on player skills is a technical limitation. Were we to increase that, skill lag would get considerably worse.

See, poor design and coding. Thanks for confirming what I have been saying for a long time. With that said, is there any current effort to optimize the code so we can at least be skill lag free with the AoE limit in place? It makes the game kitten near unplayable at times. I little communication on the subject would be beneficial instead of the silence.

stof.9341:

Grimwolf.7163:

If removing the AoE cap isn’t an option, maybe add back body blocking.
I thought it was full blown kittened when they announced that wouldn’t be in GW2.
Then it would be literally impossible to stack on top of each other. Even trying to stay excessively close would make it too difficult to move.

If you think skill lag is bad, wait until they add body blocking and the game becomes a turn by turn strategy game where each player makes his move sequentially.

No doubt. The amount of calculations for that would blow anything AoE related out of the water.

If doing damage to more people via an increase in the AoE cap is a technical limitation that would lead to more skill lag, it seems to me like we could reduce skill lag by making heals/cleanse/buffs all group based.

I have long been a proponent of putting in a proper squad management system and converting all friendly abilities to group/target based only. I think the quality of play and the viability of squad and smaller group level play would be increased.

Being able to all just blob up with no effort to forming groups or to be organized in any fashion is what has created such a low skill cap in this game.

Niim.9260:

If doing damage to more people via an increase in the AoE cap is a technical limitation that would lead to more skill lag, it seems to me like we could reduce skill lag by making heals/cleanse/buffs all group based.

I have long been a proponent of putting in a proper squad management system and converting all friendly abilities to group/target based only. I think the quality of play and the viability of squad and smaller group level play would be increased.

Being able to all just blob up with no effort to forming groups or to be organized in any fashion is what has created such a low skill cap in this game.

Totally support this as long they add the proper Squad / Team support!

Niim.9260:

If doing damage to more people via an increase in the AoE cap is a technical limitation that would lead to more skill lag, it seems to me like we could reduce skill lag by making heals/cleanse/buffs all group based.

I have long been a proponent of putting in a proper squad management system and converting all friendly abilities to group/target based only. I think the quality of play and the viability of squad and smaller group level play would be increased.

Being able to all just blob up with no effort to forming groups or to be organized in any fashion is what has created such a low skill cap in this game.

They could also greatly reduce skill lag by removing 90% of the AoE skills in the game and we’d probably have a better gameplay in the end.

stof.9341:

They could also greatly reduce skill lag by removing 90% of the AoE skills in the game and we’d probably have a better gameplay in the end.

That would encourage even more blobbing.

Leo Paul.1659:

Why do commanders ask us to… All the time? Doesn’t it make us more susceptible to AOE attacks? :/

Leo Paul.1659:

Can someone explain to me why people think it’s still gonna be the same (balling up tightly) even if the aoe cap is raised?

Best example of the answer is at 1:47

“Every Action has an Equal and Opposite Reaction” – Isaac Newton

KingClash.3186:

Sadly yes its zerg vs zerg vs zerg, I would love to see 30 teams of 10 people running around doing different stuff and roaming. But the mechanics and mainly the general populace are stuck in a zerg mode of 1 team of 300. :/

then you really need a wake up call mate its not like that.

sfr for example lol don’t blob prime time.

Nikola.3841:

plegnic.8324:

From what I understand, the biggest reason for AoE cap is the calculation cost. It’s easy to think, “But there’s only 12 conditions.. how hard can that be to compute?!” The problem comes in when you look at how conditions are implemented and how many people there are. ANet needs to consider the absolute worst case because it could potentially happen: each player has 25 stacks of 12 conditions which is 300 stacks. Each of those stacks has an individual timer that updates every tick(one second). Suppose a total of 600 people are in the map (is 200/team a decent estimate?) that’s 180,000 condition stacks updating every second. Not to mention player positions, chat, camp/tower/keep statuses, siege has health, doors/walls have health, and npcs/monsters can receive conditions too… Then each and every client has to be updated constantly with the new information. This is a close to worst-case scenario but you can see how it can get out of hand very quickly even with smaller battles.

P.S. This is way over-simplified. I know not all conditions are implemented like this but they still take additional calculations when new stacks are added.

DAOC with NF had much bigger RVR maps, and game calculated (you could get it at any moment using /stat command) your amount healed, realm points earned, kills, deaths and few other stats for each player. Each animist could put up to around 60 pets, and theurgists were pretty good with putting up lots of pets too.

Pentium 4 based Xeon processors at 1.4GHz just came to market. Skills were positional (and there were MANY of them…game at the end had 46 classes I think)

AOE was very powerful and also uncapped, killed 40-50 people few times with healer/warlock duo in just few seconds.

The fate of most stupid ‘pvpers’.

DevonCarver.5370:

Just wanted to hop in and mention, again, that the AoE cap on player skills is a technical limitation. Were we to increase that, skill lag would get considerably worse.

if you want help players to show their skill and free them from blobs and lag , there is only one way ……

no resurrection when the player is in combat mode @ www

until then they will always stack , blob and LAG all together

note . maybe there is one more solution to the problem but i dont know how it affects the whole game. if you increase the range area of boons/skills/debuffs/fields etc

Reborn, it isnt downed state that causes it… it is the entire design of the game. They way boons, AoE, and combos works is the problem combined with the fact that there is no trinity (well at least no dedicated healing class).

You have to blob to get boons, you have to blob to trivialize AE damage (conversely uncapped AoE would force people to spread out), and you have to stack to get any sort of real healing in combat.

@covenn.7165 i know all these things and this is way i said as a second option to increased the range area of all (boons/skills/debuffs/fields etc) , but the in battle resurrection is the advantage that have the blob with purgs against a good guild team.

If your commander is asking you to open field stack might, he is probably bad. Open field might stacking is prevalent in WvW and so are bad commanders. Those few seconds are much better spent trying to get the best positioning.

DevonCarver.5370:

Just wanted to hop in and mention, again, that the AoE cap on player skills is a technical limitation. Were we to increase that, skill lag would get considerably worse.

And how about optimization? Game is still unplayable when 2 zergs clash.

Stacking is a very successful tactic, and I can think of only one reason why Arenanet has not taken steps to nerf it.

The main problem I see with this tactic is in very big battles, like say trying to take the Lords Room in Stone Mist, the frame rate drops so low that it becomes impossible to keep a stack together.

If we are out in the open, I have been in 25-30 player stacks that have mowed down 60+ player zergs with impunity. But, concentrate more players in a smaller area, like a Lords Room, and it becomes very difficult to keep up with the blue taco. Between the slideshow framerate, skill lag and lag in drawing characters, it becomes impossible to know where your commander went, and you are soon downed and back at respawn.

A poor commander will then rage at his allies for not keeping up, and usually this results in more allies suddenly finding something else to do outside of WvW.

At least that is how stacks work for me with an average computer and Internet Service. Maybe if you have the latest and greatest souped up rig and top of the line ISP, you can stick to a commander in really huge dense battles. If that is what some commanders experience, they quickly forget many of us are do not enjoy that level of performance.

Stacking has SOME advantages but imo it is mainly to:

1. count supplies
2.organize yourselves.

Might stacking imo is bogus and does nothing. Why? most of the time, by the time you stack that might on the few people who get the might stacks, you would have lost those might by the time you REACHED your enemy and now you have blast finishers still on CD. lose lose. However, there are valid points brought up earlier if you’re ambushing/countering an incoming zerg to stack and lay down fields.

About the stacking and dropping fire fields and then blasting it for might.
Check the link its not for 5 people only!!
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo
Check the text: Blast finishers apply their effect to all foes or allies in the area where the blast occurred with radius 360.

Maybe instead of complaining about the 5 man AoE cap, you all should start running with only 4 other people instead of 30… maybe learn how to play, and not just spam auto attack.