Guild Wars 2

Caliban.3176:

I’m sure you meant no offence and I understand why you would say this, it is however not true. The truth of it is that we know of all these other ways to attack and get an objective but we don’t really care enough. If garrison has a defensive treb, some well places ballista’s and catapults and AC’s, I’d rather walk away. It’s not worth it. We will poke around to see if we can provoke some even fights against actual players but capturing the objective is always of secondary importance.

In days long past we used to care a lot more about those objectives and the right siege placement as well as the countersiege tactics. I just find them boring and no longer have the serverpride to power through the boring stuff (maybe if I ever go back to SFR).

There are more reasons than just our experience with attacking that lead us (me especially) to say this about defending. We have done our fair share of defending as well and even without maximizing the defending potential from proper siege use we do very well against larger forces and there are others like us.

Defenders have a great advantage in this game but they have to be there to defend. That is the greatest advantage attackers have, they can walk away from a defended structure and go attack an empty one.

based on just the example you gave, i’m certain i can improve your methods. you can punch straight through to the lord’s room in the garrison without ever needing to worry about a defensive treb at all. and that method was developed several months ago. there have been significant advancements since then as well.

in the end, however, the choice is yours. i won’t press the issue, but do keep in mind that the offer is out there.

Even though all of my guildies hate me for the idea, I would also love to see an entirely underwater map/keep. preferably a whole map. Of course, that means creating siege that can be used underwater, but that’s something which we needed in the first place.

And in terms of how one would implement a system of maps: aside from the more obvious random assignment for each server or team color, it could also be possible to continue to leave all borderlands the same across the matchup, but randomizing the borderland in the same way that you would randomize the server matchup. Eg: tier 1 group draws X Maps and tier 2 draws Y. That way, ideally, even if you were to face the same servers twice in relative succession, the element of random map assignment could add some interest to the matchup. That way, you could also remove the possibility that one server could be in any way disadvantaged. All borderlands would be the same, so everyone has the same advantage or disadvantage.

Also, EBG could operate with the same system: one week, it’s X type of map while another week it is Y (hopefully at one point underwater).

DevonCarver.5370:

Johje Holan.4607:

I was actually depressed by that response. He said when/if. That means they defintely haven’t started on new maps. And they may never.

Don’t read too much into that type of wording. I’m just hedging because there are a lot of things we don’t talk about until they are close to release. We want to work on new maps and those maps are going to be awesome.

Good thing you waited for 95-100% of the skill-based pvpers to leave the game.

Thanks for the past year, but as far as the future you can count on our 5 man NEVER supporting another Anet / NCsoft product.

Add finishing moves like Age f Conan:

You kill an asura, you punt him.

You kill a charr, you rip off his tail and strangle him with it.

You kill a norn, you rip his meaty thigh and smack him around with it

You kill a sylvari..I dunno..something to do with fertilizer

Humans are too boring to bother with finishing moves but I guess a good ol decapitation does the trick.

Hell..make that in VIP maps you gotta pay gems to access and see the cash rolling in.

Jscull.2514:

DevonCarver.5370:

Johje Holan.4607:

I was actually depressed by that response. He said when/if. That means they defintely haven’t started on new maps. And they may never.

Don’t read too much into that type of wording. I’m just hedging because there are a lot of things we don’t talk about until they are close to release. We want to work on new maps and those maps are going to be awesome.

Good thing you waited for 95-100% of the skill-based pvpers to leave the game.

Thanks for the past year, but as far as the future you can count on our 5 man NEVER supporting another Anet / NCsoft product.

I dont know if i like to hear new maps can be produced, problem here is the siege warfare concept, gameplay and mechanics are basic and stale not allowing the game for further development behind that point.

How WvW is designed to work is the flaw here, players swarm/zerg by design (it is not the player fault), map size and structure helps doing that, there are several aspects of game mechanics that should be reviewed before producing new WvW maps.

Just a funny note, why siege have wheels if cant be movable?

DevonCarver.5370:

mjharrison.3209:

WVW needs a Darkness Falls. That is all.

But why?

That is so easy. Darkness Falls was Fun. So fun that it is arguably more fun than any one thing in GW2 alone (though GW2 has done many fun things DAoC didn’t, to be fair).

More than that, it was the ultimate tie-in mechanic.

• By having a little bit of great PvE content controlled by RvR success, it encouraged PvE’rs to participate and care about the war effort.
• It also meant that when 1 team was “winning” (by PPT, not total points), they would flee battlefields and go clear out Darkness Falls of enemy players, creating the ultimate balance effect. With the winning team in Darkness Falls, the other realms could retake the offensive in the warfront, something that never happens in GW2 (the winning team in GW2 is never at a disadvantage).
• RvR players clearing out enemy players from DF protected the lowbies and PvE’rs who wanted to go inside, creating a real sense of server community.
• It gave minor moments of winning to the weaker team purpose: Midguard probably never won overall for long, but winning just long enough to get their people entrenched in DF was a huge and satisfying victory for their entire realm.
• Winning/losing in GW2 is currently meaningless. There are no enemy names, no recognizable guild claimed keeps, no death spam (all of which = no Pride), and no physical reward (like dungeon access).
• Darkness Falls still had a lot of pvp fights in it. You make it sound like players would be leaving WvW to go to southshore when they won. In reality, they are leaving to go to an area densely populated with enemy players, in a very fun, indoors-combat map.
• It gave small groups places to shine, similar to Prog in Warhammer or Stillmoor in Rift. GW2 at the moment, is all open field zergland all day long, except at jumping puzzles that matter even less than the objectives.

The lack of the Darkness Falls mechanic was talked about a lot at game launch, its really hard to understand why you guys didn’t do it. Not having it only holds the WvW in this game back.

DevonCarver.5370:

mjharrison.3209:

WVW needs a Darkness Falls. That is all.

But why?

You’re right, we should change the colors on the map and remove the quaggans…we don’t need a game mechanic that makes sense….

Raven.9603:

DevonCarver.5370:

mjharrison.3209:

WVW needs a Darkness Falls. That is all.

But why?

That is so easy. Darkness Falls was Fun. So fun that it is arguably more fun than any one thing in GW2 alone (though GW2 has done many fun things DAoC didn’t, to be fair).

More than that, it was the ultimate tie-in mechanic.

• By having a little bit of great PvE content controlled by RvR success, it encouraged PvE’rs to participate and care about the war effort.
• It also meant that when 1 team was “winning” (by PPT, not total points), they would flee battlefields and go clear out Darkness Falls of enemy players, creating the ultimate balance effect. With the winning team in Darkness Falls, the other realms could retake the offensive in the warfront, something that never happens in GW2 (the winning team in GW2 is never at a disadvantage).
• RvR players clearing out enemy players from DF protected the lowbies and PvE’rs who wanted to go inside, creating a real sense of server community.
• It gave minor moments of winning to the weaker team purpose: Midguard probably never won overall for long, but winning just long enough to get their people entrenched in DF was a huge and satisfying victory for their entire realm.
• Winning/losing in GW2 is currently meaningless. There are no enemy names, no recognizable guild claimed keeps, no death spam (all of which = no Pride), and no physical reward (like dungeon access).
• Darkness Falls still had a lot of pvp fights in it. You make it sound like players would be leaving WvW to go to southshore when they won. In reality, they are leaving to go to an area densely populated with enemy players, in a very fun, indoors-combat map.
• It gave small groups places to shine, similar to Prog in Warhammer or Stillmoor in Rift. GW2 at the moment, is all open field zergland all day long, except at jumping puzzles that matter even less than the objectives.

The lack of the Darkness Falls mechanic was talked about a lot at game launch, its really hard to understand why you guys didn’t do it. Not having it only holds the WvW in this game back.

nailed it spot on!

is it fair to assume that devon did not play daoc?

DF gave the realms a tangible reward to fight over, a zone that only one side could access, unless the other realms took control. unlike relics/orbs which only gave bonuses.

Also, in DAoC the way relics worked: Originally, they were housed in an extremely fortified keep. 2-3 outer breakable gates, 2-3 inner breakable gates, ramps to give chokepoints. Higher level and number of guards to protect the relic keep. (unlike gw2 guards which are a terrible joke)

The way DAoC keep’s functioned was that the number of relic guards reduced, if a keep was taken. If a large number of the first realm’s keeps are taken, then there is a significant reduction in the amount of relic guards.

That gave people a reason to defend keeps instead of simply waiting to back cap for easy wxp.

once the relic was captured, it must then be transported back to the enemy players relic keep. Mobility of the carrier was reduced, lets say by 50-66%, in order to give the realm losing the relic a chance to stop the loss of their relic.

If the realm was successful enough to capture the enemy relic, they were given a 10% boost across all stats/economy, i think (been so long cant remember the specifics of the relic bonuses at release)

silvermember.8941:

Thrumdi.9216:

DevonCarver.5370:

mjharrison.3209:

WVW needs a Darkness Falls. That is all.

But why?

One reason would be an orb-like objective that doesn’t include a balance-upsetting stat buff.

Also, a public dungeon might be a way to add features only present in PvE to WvW. Perhaps a better way to get Laurels or Ascended items in WvW? Or maybe precursors?

People like to bring up Daoc a lot but fail to realize is that the market has changed, players have changed.

Aion had dungeons that were dependent on players gaining control over fortresses and that did not work out as plan. The reality is that a lot of players might WANT access to it, but wont be bother to WORK for it. Then when their servers gets perpertually stuck fighting a powerful servers players will start whining about the lack of access to it. Then you have other issue of players leaving WvW to go do that instance which defeats the purpose of WvW as well.

tl;dr
Players change from the time Daoc was out. Recent game like aion (i last played aion in 2010 maybe it change), that a lot of players might want to run the dungeon but wont necessarily work to keep it open. Then you have the other issue of fighting a far stronger server and never having access to it.

BTW i am not saying they shouldnt make a exclusive WvW dungeon, but it cannot be linked to something that requires your server to be strong or it will never work in the long run.

This represents my thoughts as well.

If you have more PVE features in WvW maps to lure in more players that wouldn’t normally participate, it’s essentially luring people who have no interest in PVP into a PVP area. With the EB jumping puzzle, I think we all know how that ends.

PVE players don’t typically enjoy PVP, at least not while trying to do something PVE-esque in nature. A dungeon or similar would just result in PVPers camping the entrance to blow up the carebears for lolz and bags. Carebears rage, never enter WvW again, and all we have is more player division and bitter feelings.

It’s too late to expect a “Darkness Falls” map like.
But I can say that it would be an awesome place controlled by the server that is leading the ppt match in order to access a specific map where you could kill thousands npc to reach a legendary giant boss that would grant a 10% chance to drop a precursor and that legendary monster would appear only after controlling that map over 5/7 days in the current week matchup, it would require zerg rush in this timeframe to raid it. So people would zerg into the legendary boss at the end of the week (when it is becoming available) matchup in order to get a precursor. Legendaries weapons would mean something else than gold farm then…
But like I said it’s too late to give some expected and quality bonus contents like that.
What is missing gw2 is an epic unlockable map linked to wvw maps where one of the involved wvw server can lead a server RAID once a week to beat a legendary powerful creature that grant a larger chance to get precursors after beating it. Endgame unlockable bonus reward content that’s some sort of at least…

I would love bigger maps. Take the maps we currently have and make them into a single map. And introduce new maps of a large size. Have some objectives give more points for the team that holds them based on the amount of people that took it. The fewer players that contributed the higher the points for it. Encourage the breaking up of zergs.

DevonCarver.5370:

That does seem more reasonable. When/if we start on additional home maps, we will very much be looking to vary the gameplay and feel of them. It’s my hope that each new borderland will improve upon the previous and if we do well enough we might be able to have enough to build a rotation. That is a long way off, if ever, though. We will definitely be looking for ways to make new maps unique, no matter how many we make.

So this says to me you have been doing next to nothing if your not working on maps in some way. Might as well give up on WvW as its never going to improve.

Bailey.6892:

I would love bigger maps. Take the maps we currently have and make them into a single map. And introduce new maps of a large size. Have some objectives give more points for the team that holds them based on the amount of people that took it. The fewer players that contributed the higher the points for it. Encourage the breaking up of zergs.

Not going to happen … ever. There are about 8 months of posts from ANet pointing out that the current maps are as large as the game engine can handle.

Cactus.2710:

Bailey.6892:

I would love bigger maps. Take the maps we currently have and make them into a single map. And introduce new maps of a large size. Have some objectives give more points for the team that holds them based on the amount of people that took it. The fewer players that contributed the higher the points for it. Encourage the breaking up of zergs.

Not going to happen … ever. There are about 8 months of posts from ANet pointing out that the current maps are as large as the game engine can handle.

That is a disappointing fail on their end, to bad they did not plan better. Perhaps they didn’t think they would ever have the population to need a bigger map other wise not sure why one would not have a scale able option.

Lot of open PvE map space available . Reacquisition that space and reallocate it for WvW use! Problem solved LoL.

Jk we are way far from WvW problems being solved

do you really think camelot unchained would’ve funded over 2 million dollars on kickstarter if people were blown away or even fairly happy with the direction of GW2 WvW?

What was the primary RvR attraction in DAoC? Respectful 8v8 roaming combat, and Darkness Falls. GW2 exists in the warcraft generation and will probably never see much respectful 8v8/5v5 roaming, especially with the way buffs are shared out of party and the down system and commander tags all encourage zerging, but it has a real shot at remaking DF if it wanted too.

When Camelot Unchained launches, what will be one of the biggest reasons WvW players leave GW2 for that game? The return of the Darkness Falls mechanic. It’s really a do it or lose it situation for Anet at this point.

Hrist.8972:

I love the idea, but making that balanced would take years.

Thats years for a NORMAL company, we are talking decades, maybe even centuries for Anet, just look at all the issues the game STILL has.

As for WvW, the FIRST thing that needs sorting – The Matchup system, it is a JOKE.

Bailey.6892:

That is a disappointing fail on their end, to bad they did not plan better. Perhaps they didn’t think they would ever have the population to need a bigger map other wise not sure why one would not have a scale able option.

Its like they picked the engine and were making the content as they go rather then decide WHAT they wanted before actually picking/making the engine.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

As for WvW, the FIRST thing that needs sorting – The Matchup system, it is a JOKE.

It’s interesting that you say that. Matchups are horribly unbalanced with results that are an order of magnitude more dependent upon raw numbers (which includes coverage) than any sort of strategy or team skill, a fact that is obvious to everyone except ANet. It’s the single most destructive aspect to the original intent of WvW, and yet most players now seem to have abandoned any hope that it will ever be fixed because you don’t see many threads on it any more. Probably anybody who gave a crap has already left and the only folks left are those that simply prefer open world mashing.

Cactus.2710:

It’s interesting that you say that. Matchups are horribly unbalanced with results that are an order of magnitude more dependent upon raw numbers (which includes coverage) than any sort of strategy or team skill, a fact that is obvious to everyone except ANet. It’s the single most destructive aspect to the original intent of WvW, and yet most players now seem to have abandoned any hope that it will ever be fixed because you don’t see many threads on it any more. Probably anybody who gave a crap has already left and the only folks left are those that simply prefer open world mashing.

Personally, i think they did this on purpose. Make the match ups terrible for smaller servers and with the fact that it costs MORE to transfer to a higher populated server means they must be raking in the money from gem purchases from people trying to find a better server.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Cactus.2710:

It’s interesting that you say that. Matchups are horribly unbalanced with results that are an order of magnitude more dependent upon raw numbers (which includes coverage) than any sort of strategy or team skill, a fact that is obvious to everyone except ANet. It’s the single most destructive aspect to the original intent of WvW, and yet most players now seem to have abandoned any hope that it will ever be fixed because you don’t see many threads on it any more. Probably anybody who gave a crap has already left and the only folks left are those that simply prefer open world mashing.

Personally, i think they did this on purpose. Make the match ups terrible for smaller servers and with the fact that it costs MORE to transfer to a higher populated server means they must be raking in the money from gem purchases from people trying to find a better server.

I’ll respond for you with what Anet would say….

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Bailey.6892:

That is a disappointing fail on their end, to bad they did not plan better. Perhaps they didn’t think they would ever have the population to need a bigger map other wise not sure why one would not have a scale able option.

Its like they picked the engine and were making the content as they go rather then decide WHAT they wanted before actually picking/making the engine.

Actually, I think it goes even deeper than that. After viewing and reading several interviews and online presentations from ANet personnel (as well as various forum posts from the devs), it seems to me that GW2 has had lots of mostly independent development teams operating with VERY poor coordination with each other. If there has been any sort of centralized decision making, it has been pretty loose and ineffective. Just look at all the times patches were floated two hours after WvW reset, and look at the the huge differences in the cleverness of the race story lines and animations (you’d think they were crafted by different companies). I wouldn’t be surprised at all to find out that the people who chose the game engine, wrote the server software, coded the game mechanics, wrote the rendering software, and determined content were all working more or less in isolation.

I’ll bet some ANet insider could write a master’s thesis for software system design (kind of like a Harvard Case Study for business) that describes how such a disconnected and inflexible result happened.

Yep, it seems like they STILL dont communicate, its like they are in rival gangs or opposing football team fans just ignoring that they exist and some times doing something just to really annoy them…

DevonCarver.5370:

mjharrison.3209:

WVW needs a Darkness Falls. That is all.

But why?

Because it splits up the dominating zergs into two locations, while rewarding them at the same time.

Raven.9603:

When Camelot Unchained launches, what will be one of the biggest reasons WvW players leave GW2 for that game? The return of the Darkness Falls mechanic. It’s really a do it or lose it situation for Anet at this point.

DF was integral to the realms in DAOC, holding it meant you could level faster, you had better access to crafting materials, and your side would improve faster than the others.

I have EVERYTHING I need on my character. Absolutely everything. There would be no reason to go into DF in this game.

It will likely work in Camelot Unchained as that game will borrow many good things from DAOC.

Relentliss.2170:

Raven.9603:

When Camelot Unchained launches, what will be one of the biggest reasons WvW players leave GW2 for that game? The return of the Darkness Falls mechanic. It’s really a do it or lose it situation for Anet at this point.

DF was integral to the realms in DAOC, holding it meant you could level faster, you had better access to crafting materials, and your side would improve faster than the others.

I have EVERYTHING I need on my character. Absolutely everything. There would be no reason to go into DF in this game.

It will likely work in Camelot Unchained as that game will borrow many good things from DAOC.

GW2 DF allowing to kill a giant monster in order to get a high chance % to drop a precursor (once in the week) and tons of npc with huge % chance dropping T6 mats, no?

Lets be real, they say they cannot do any of our requests, yet they cannot even add new WvW maps after what, 1 year into game release? fail.

WvW needs de_dust2

DAOC is outdated junk, get over it.

Folk.2093:

DAOC is outdated junk, get over it.

The game itself is out dated but the concept and design behind the game play has yet to be matched by any game coming after. This is why so many people continue to reference it and will continue to do so until a game company manages to produces something on par.

covenn.7165:

Folk.2093:

DAOC is outdated junk, get over it.

The game itself is out dated but the concept and design behind the game play has yet to be matched by any game coming after. This is why so many people continue to reference it and will continue to do so until a game company manages to produces something on par.

^^^
/fact

Mr Devon, why you need a DF type area:

you always have to balance the PVERS with the PVPERs in daoc DF forced the pvers to have to pvp. in the beginning of the game it gave ppl a more of incentive to hold points capture keeps because you wanted to cap DF. you asked WHY? at the time DF gave the best amounts of money/ accessories and even at the time weapons. You were also able to buy starter gear with tokens that dropped from mobs. not to mention the large scale raid monsters that were deep inside. How did this affect pvp? after capping and seeing “o our server controls the zone now”. you were able to go down deep fight ppl and if you died it took you out of the zone. So it was a cat and mouse game of staying alive to pve (if you chose too) or to flush out the pvers for your server.

Did it affect the overall RVR err WVW scene? NO because it actually made more ppl come out and wvw so they could get back to their pve time. it kept pvers happy because it was a great zone to farm in, but also pvper happy because it brought more ppl out to fight.

Could also look at a zone like passage of conflict or summoners hall. was a pve zone in the WVW zone that you had to zone into and was connected to all 3 zones and you could pve/ lvl/ do whatever, but you always had to be on the look out because at any time another player could come and kill you. did this affect RVR nope:D

not saying copy these mechanics but if you want to balance and get more ppl involved in wvw and reason to hold keeps/towers then you honestly have to make a zone or event that is affected by the overall score. not just orbs either… daoc had those too, but all it did was make you crit harder or your caster dmg pierce.