Guild Wars 2

ANet Developers,

If you do implement a WvW Vote Ballot NPC…please provide a weblink that guides the in-game player to a Forum Discussion Thread.

This is similar to voting on State or City legislation balloting during election.

Yours truly,
Diku

Have the link go to a Forum Thread

ANet…you might want to reserve the 1 -5 posts in the Thread to help Guide the discussion by providing a central area for feedback with changes & corrections at the top of the Thread.

1st Post – ORIGINAL – Poll as it shows up
2nd Post – DETAIL – High detailed information behind each Poll option
3rd Post – FAQ – Frequently Asked Questions to help clarify things for players
4th Post – RESOURCE – Weblinks or Re-Post of Positive Player’s Feedback
5th Post – RESULTS – Posted Results

Do Not Allow Free to Play Accounts to Vote or Participate in Discussion
Always Include the following Poll Choice – “None of the Above”
Allow Players to Change their Vote before Polling Closes
Give Players advance warning before Polling Closes

Don’t just point players to other Forum Thread for details.

ANet needs to properly manage the discussion for these Polls to have a positive impact on the WvW Game Mode…imho.

Trolls & Upset players are part of this process. Stand firm, but be fair when you need to…don’t let the feedback from these types of postings steer the ship in the wrong direction.

ANet Developers,

You might want to post a Forum Thread using your “normal” player account before creating a Formal Thread Post that’s tied to a WvW Vote Ballot NPC.

Hopefully you’re playing WvW without any ANet tags on your character…so you can wander around anonymously…please be impartial & fair in judgement…as you wander to gather information to enact changes.

Also, participate in Threads posted by the WvW Community here can work effectively too.

Test the waters before you create a Formal Thread Post that “could” lead to WvW Change.

1) Leave enough wiggle room for a vote of Not to Change to win…if that’s the “right thing to do”.

2) Get to know your WvW Community.

3) Be able to identify Trolls trying to bias things over Sincere Members wanting to help.

4) Really Spend time reviewing a Posting person’s Forum Profile to spot check credibility.

Yours truly,
Diku

p.s.
I sometimes wonder if there are a few here that might be…

SailorSpira.9371:

Well thank you for listening to our opinions, it’s nice to see Anet looking for feedback.

I do however have concerns about this poll. The “Adjust scoring to be relative to current activity and population (Large)” option should have been left off this poll. As it was previous announced as a controversial maybe it really shouldn’t be the first priority.

Another person who misinterpreted the options (not your fault!). Anet please take note and repoll.

lil devils x.6071:

Jayne.9251:

lil devils x.6071:

How you like ’em Alpines? You do not change things by shutting up about it.

This is like nails on a chalkboard for me.

Gaming companies really do have to nip this kind of thinking in the butt. The “if I yell long and loudly enough, they’ll cave” mentality is a scourge to every MMO out there.

Nope, not at all. If you know the History in MMO’s you would know EXACTLY what happens when they don’t cave. The SWG CU Riots.. The dev didn’t cave, the game died and closed due to them “sticking to their guns.” Players should ALWAYS voice their happiness/ dissatisfaction with a game. Leaving because you are not happy with their decisions without saying anything isn’t helping the devs know how to fix the problem. Speaking up IS how you save it.

You kill your game fastest by not listening to the players.

Yep, voice opinion in a rational, adult manner. No to the screaming, yelling, threat thing that is endemic in all MMO forums.

It honestly feels like a kid throwing a temper tantrum in a store until the parent caves. You really don’t want to encourage that kind of behaviour, because then your child grows up to be a monster, incapable of recognizing social queues. It’s bad for the parent, it’s bad for society, worse still, it’s terrible messaging to give the child.

We’re adults here. Yes, voice your opinion, but you can do so (even passionately) without the slurs.

Jong.5937:

I have to say it’s great to have this level of interaction with the team, but this poll is bad.

After all the discussion on scoring, I could see two polls that might have worked:

1. “OK, thanks for all your ideas! Here are some of yours and some of ours, tidied up a bit and consolidated. They span the full range of ideas expressed. Please let us know which path you think we should take.”

2. “We’ve read all your comments and thought about them. Here are our revised suggestions. Please vote on them.”

The current poll_sounds_ like they have just ignored the feverish discussion on scoring, which they initiated, are just going ahead with their original ideas and all we get to do is set the order in which they are done. It may not be like that, but as we’ve had no feedback at all on the “talk scoring” thread, what are we supposed to think? At the very least this poll should have been backed by a document which defined what each of the options now meant.

I totally agree. It remains unclear whether the team read the discussion and whether the team actually adjusts their plans accordingly. I can recall a thread with Hugh in the PvP-part. He started a discussion, made a summary and asked clarifying questions. He led the discussion the way it should be. Maybe WvW-team can learn here from PvP-team.

It is unclear what acutally is behind each choice in the survey. Hence, it remains unclear whether the results are potentially biased and consequently useless.

Jayne.9251:

lil devils x.6071:

Jayne.9251:

lil devils x.6071:

How you like ’em Alpines? You do not change things by shutting up about it.

This is like nails on a chalkboard for me.

Gaming companies really do have to nip this kind of thinking in the butt. The “if I yell long and loudly enough, they’ll cave” mentality is a scourge to every MMO out there.

Nope, not at all. If you know the History in MMO’s you would know EXACTLY what happens when they don’t cave. The SWG CU Riots.. The dev didn’t cave, the game died and closed due to them “sticking to their guns.” Players should ALWAYS voice their happiness/ dissatisfaction with a game. Leaving because you are not happy with their decisions without saying anything isn’t helping the devs know how to fix the problem. Speaking up IS how you save it.

You kill your game fastest by not listening to the players.

Yep, voice opinion in a rational, adult manner. No to the screaming, yelling, threat thing that is endemic in all MMO forums.

It honestly feels like a kid throwing a temper tantrum in a store until the parent caves. You really don’t want to encourage that kind of behaviour, because then your child grows up to be a monster, incapable of recognizing social queues. It’s bad for the parent, it’s bad for society, worse still, it’s terrible messaging to give the child.

We’re adults here. Yes, voice your opinion, but you can do so (even passionately) without the slurs.

The vast majority of those that have voiced their opinions on things such as “bringing back the BLS” did not use slurs. No matter what the topic is , even non issues, you will always have the random person come in and blurt out a bunch of profanity and leave even if it is a discussion on say the proper way to unroll the “Toilet Paper” you will have some that are not able to properly communicate expressing their opinions in an appropriate fashion, so I think it would be inaccurate to attempt to apply something like " they can leave out the slurs" to any topic really since it is a pretty universal issue that occurs regardless of the topic.

You should take note, however, the guy coming in and attempting to demean others by insinuating they are not adults, OR even worse as in your example above, compare them to children is a far more a disrespect to another than the random guy coming in and puking up a pile of profanity onto the page before leaving..

Yes, we see the tantrum, most adults actually just ignore the tantrum and get back to the topic rather than do the immature thing and focus on it. The best way parents deal with tantrums is to help them learn to communicate better so they have more choices rather than poke them with a stick. LOL

I don’t think it’s demeaning to ask people to behave like adults. I was just responding to the context of your original post.

/shrug

SkyShroud.2865:

Liston.9708:

SkyShroud.2865:

Sorry, I totally do not understand the purpose of this polling. Isn’t the changes supposedly comprehensive and not selective parts?

the poll is the order they implement. the changes will be introduced piecemeal and not after all changes are done…..

And isn’t that bad? All the mentioned changes affect the overall scoring. They might be working good as a whole together but it might perform really bad in parts. Thus, using incremental approach is questionable.

personally speaking, any score changes before getting linking out of beta are bad. the linkings were ill timed, poorly linked, and now guests are being stacked on the cheap to get around full on the host…..

McKenna Berdrow.2759:

We plan to do everything on the poll. This poll is to help us set priorities of what order you would like to see them.

Maybe we could have a poll about the need for future polls, preceded of course by a poll about whether we need a poll on the need for a poll for future polls.

Best Wishes

Flo

(Pro Pole Dancer from Poland)

Scoring in relation to Serveractivity …
Are u serious ?!

I dont know what u guys hope this will change but in my opinion this option is completely dumb !
What is the function of Scoring ? ! Right it sets the best/most active server on Rank 1 and the worst/less active server on last Place.

To implement a feature that rewards the worst server is like announcing the worst PvP-Player in ESL as the Champion …. lol !

democracy is the leadership of stupidity

wwDefuser.2056:

Scoring in relation to Serveractivity …
Are u serious ?!

I dont know what u guys hope this will change but in my opinion this option is completely dumb !
What is the function of Scoring ? ! Right it sets the best/most active server on Rank 1 and the worst/less active server on last Place.

To implement a feature that rewards the worst server is like announcing the worst PvP-Player in ESL as the Champion …. lol !

democracy is the leadership of stupidity

I’m not necessarily on board with scoring adjustments based on activity level, but the problem that most have is that the primary factor that determines victory is the size of the population/activity level and nothing else. Skill and strategy are distant seconds.

This is probably why most of the community saw population imbalance in matches as the biggest problem.

Disconnecting WvW entities from the general population and providing a tiered population hard cap is a better long term solution than linking of score tweaks based on population.

But linking and score tweaks are easier, I guess.

The problem here isn’t the democratic approach but rather the poor communication of ideas and plans that distort the communities request.

For example, the server linking didn’t solve the population imbalance. And the proposed scoring adjustment based on population/activity, doesn’t really solve the underlying problem of “off hours” passive scoring (aka PPT.) Instead it is more of a European style victory point system which in itself is not a bad thing, but doesn’t really solve the scoring problem. Reducing points at certain times of day (which is an optional part of this change) ham handedly solves the problem but creates another problem in its wake. Passive scoring continues to be ignored.

I think its odd that with the rise of RvR as the staple of MMO’s that Anet doesn’t realize how important WvW is to their brand in the long run. And they currently have a head start on all the new games that are coming out in the next few years to lock it down and get it right. Half measures will not get them there, they need to rebuild the underlying scoring framework. PPT as it is, has to go.

Liston.9708:

SkyShroud.2865:

Liston.9708:

SkyShroud.2865:

Sorry, I totally do not understand the purpose of this polling. Isn’t the changes supposedly comprehensive and not selective parts?

the poll is the order they implement. the changes will be introduced piecemeal and not after all changes are done…..

And isn’t that bad? All the mentioned changes affect the overall scoring. They might be working good as a whole together but it might perform really bad in parts. Thus, using incremental approach is questionable.

personally speaking, any score changes before getting linking out of beta are bad. the linkings were ill timed, poorly linked, and now guests are being stacked on the cheap to get around full on the host…..

I agree, I too asked about the progress on that but many people don’t seem to care about that. The ambiguous server status is basically a timebomb.

Well … population/ server ranking problems ???

1. there is no reward for players playing on Gold/Silver/Bronze server
2. most people play at daytime so nobody cares how many people play at night
3. since activity is low on nighttime (rate of cap, decap and PPK) you just need to lower the passive scoring via objectives ( score<—>tier) or higher the dynamic scoring

* HowTO WvW Tournament*: Define a Timerange ( just log the Queuing appearance of each server and set your Timerange – e.g. 3 hours) that count for Server Tournament and reset WvW maps at the start. —> Done

’#*_ … now Anet has time to fix the bugs !
At the moment you can glitch the Bay Waypoint on Alpine Borderlands ( WP still blocked after timer ends.) … To unlock the WP you have to pull the Moas to attack the Guards … reactivate the timer and wait again.

TorquedSoul.8097:

I think its odd that with the rise of RvR as the staple of MMO’s that Anet doesn’t realize how important WvW is to their brand in the long run. And they currently have a head start on all the new games that are coming out in the next few years to lock it down and get it right. Half measures will not get them there, they need to rebuild the underlying scoring framework. PPT as it is, has to go.

very true. you stated in an earlier post that Anet has said PPT is here to stay. i’m curious if you have that reference…because if that’s true, then it’s discouraging…

mcarswell.3768:

very true. you stated in an earlier post that Anet has said PPT is here to stay. i’m curious if you have that reference…because if that’s true, then it’s discouraging…

As interesting as the link to dev statement may be, we don’t need that to know it’s a true claim.

PPT can’t be removed from WvW because that action would effectively mean building a new game type. PPT stays because WvW fundamentally is a game of capture-and-hold.

The new systems being tacked on will never wholly replace that foundation.

WvW without PPT is a job for GW3, if ANet is interested in it to begin with.

Virtute.8251:

mcarswell.3768:

very true. you stated in an earlier post that Anet has said PPT is here to stay. i’m curious if you have that reference…because if that’s true, then it’s discouraging…

As interesting as the link to dev statement may be, we don’t need that to know it’s a true claim.

PPT can’t be removed from WvW because that action would effectively mean building a new game type. PPT stays because WvW fundamentally is a game of capture-and-hold.

The new systems being tacked on will never wholly replace that foundation.

WvW without PPT is a job for GW3, if ANet is interested in it to begin with.

There are other ways to score WvW that adhere to capture an hold. The problem with the current scoring system is that it leads a simple capture race. This happens because all assets of a type regardless of location have the same value and only a small portion of the score rewards capturing objectives in clusters.

The better scoring model is the camp -> dolyak -> objective scoring model. This requires clustered control to score. Its still capture and hold but rewards regional control. This is important because as soon as you have regional control you end up with front lines and front lines lead to designated fight locations and the fights have more meaningful impact on the game.

The current PPT system creates a system where the path of least resistance is the best strategy. Because there is only a small reward for controlling objectives near each other. The end result is a capture race with a rather unrewarding strategic feel.

Dumping PPT wouldn’t be making it a new game … it would be making WvW a better game. All they need to do add points per capture and upgrade (which they plan to do anyway) and ditch PPT and then just tweak PPK and yak values to balance the game. To further reward the supply connections and regional control, yak values can be increased when the come from higher tier camps and when they go to higher tier objectives.

TorquedSoul.8097:

There are other ways to score WvW that adhere to capture an hold. The problem with the current scoring system is that it leads a simple capture race. This happens because all assets of a type regardless of location have the same value and only a small portion of the score rewards capturing objectives in clusters.

The better scoring model is the camp -> dolyak -> objective scoring model. This requires clustered control to score. Its still capture and hold but rewards regional control. This is important because as soon as you have regional control you end up with front lines and front lines lead to designated fight locations and the fights have more meaningful impact on the game.

The current PPT system creates a system where the path of least resistance is the best strategy. Because there is only a small reward for controlling objectives near each other. The end result is a capture race with a rather unrewarding strategic feel.

Dumping PPT wouldn’t be making it a new game … it would be making WvW a better game. All they need to do add points per capture and upgrade (which they plan to do anyway) and ditch PPT and then just tweak PPK and yak values to balance the game. To further reward the supply connections and regional control, yak values can be increased when the come from higher tier camps and when they go to higher tier objectives.

Torqued makes a very astute, strategically sound assessment here. I have historically been one that greatly enjoys playing for PPT because it’s the only real strategic play. And as much as I love to fight, I love good strategy more. I’ve devised effective small team strategies solely around the PPT and 15 minute timer which in fact, are all about maximizing the low hanging fruit — the path of least resistance. It does get boring after a while, since there is little variety to it.

So I REALLY like his idea of regional control with objective dependencies. This would add a much higher level of strategic play, as well as provide for very targeted, valuable fight scenarios that tie directly to the actual score. A system based on regional control would actually create multiple fronts to fight on, since a region could be assaulted from various angles. Which might actually shift the blobbing meta in a new, better direction.

I’ve never really thought about dropping the PPT before. But from the perspective Torqued provides, I’d be highly in favor of what he’s proposing.