Claude – Pink Fairy Mesmer
WvW Resurgence
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This post is stickied at the top of the forum. It spells out exactly the areas they plan on addressing in the WvW update (population balance, scoring, player rewards). These have been identified as the core problems with WvW by many posts over the last 3 years, as well as the CDI threads a year ago.
Do you want Anet to consult with this forum at every step of the re-design process? Or would you rather have them do the job they’re paid to do, which is to design a better game product, and then put the changes out to the playerbase and adjust them based on feedback after the fact?
Think it’s more of we are in hot water and in panic mode. Reality has arrived.
The studio says that it expects NCsoft to report “slightly disappointing earnings”
Expecting disappointment – Is that possible?
Think it’s more of we are in hot water and in panic mode. Reality has arrived.
anything citing kdb daewoo securities should not be taken seriously.
JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions
Do you want Anet to consult with this forum at every step of the re-design process? Or would you rather have them do the job they’re paid to do, which is to design a better game product, and then put the changes out to the playerbase and adjust them based on feedback after the fact?
As I have posted before, YES I would like them to consult with the forums at a stage where things are not locked into place and cannot be changed. You may not have noticed but there have been NO significant changes to the new BL maps, yet they are a disaster for the game mode. Anet doesn’t appear to be able to do what they are getting paid for, in terms of WvW development.
Given Anet’s recent track record when it comes to “improving” wvw, its difficult to be anything other than pessimistic.
The information vacuum isn’t helping either.
This post is stickied at the top of the forum. It spells out exactly the areas they plan on addressing in the WvW update (population balance, scoring, player rewards). These have been identified as the core problems with WvW by many posts over the last 3 years, as well as the CDI threads a year ago.
Do you want Anet to consult with this forum at every step of the re-design process? Or would you rather have them do the job they’re paid to do, which is to design a better game product, and then put the changes out to the playerbase and adjust them based on feedback after the fact?
This post is from 5 months ago. There is nothing concrete here. There isn’t even any specific suggestion of what might be done. I’m not saying I want daily updates about what can or should be done, but I want something like “Here’s a specific thing we’re thinking of implementing. How would we all feel about this”
For EotM, they had guilds come in and try things, but they did so too long after the development of EotM that nothing could really be changed. I want us, the community, to be consulted early enough in the process that any major change is properly thought through by players who actually care about the game mode. I don’t want another dragon banner situation because nobody thought through how creative WvW players can be with abusing things. I don’t want another golem week. I don’t want broken wvw.
Claude – Pink Fairy Mesmer
Do you want Anet to consult with this forum at every step of the re-design process? Or would you rather have them do the job they’re paid to do, which is to design a better game product, and then put the changes out to the playerbase and adjust them based on feedback after the fact?
As I have posted before, YES I would like them to consult with the forums at a stage where things are not locked into place and cannot be changed. You may not have noticed but there have been NO significant changes to the new BL maps, yet they are a disaster for the game mode. Anet doesn’t appear to be able to do what they are getting paid for, in terms of WvW development.
Do you insist on being involved in the design stages of other products you buy too?
Btw this is a piece of software, nothing is locked into place and cannot be changed.
This post is stickied at the top of the forum. It spells out exactly the areas they plan on addressing in the WvW update (population balance, scoring, player rewards). These have been identified as the core problems with WvW by many posts over the last 3 years, as well as the CDI threads a year ago.
Do you want Anet to consult with this forum at every step of the re-design process? Or would you rather have them do the job they’re paid to do, which is to design a better game product, and then put the changes out to the playerbase and adjust them based on feedback after the fact?
This post is from 5 months ago. There is nothing concrete here. There isn’t even any specific suggestion of what might be done. I’m not saying I want daily updates about what can or should be done, but I want something like “Here’s a specific thing we’re thinking of implementing. How would we all feel about this”
For EotM, they had guilds come in and try things, but they did so too long after the development of EotM that nothing could really be changed. I want us, the community, to be consulted early enough in the process that any major change is properly thought through by players who actually care about the game mode. I don’t want another dragon banner situation because nobody thought through how creative WvW players can be with abusing things. I don’t want another golem week. I don’t want broken wvw.
They patched dragon banners, are you still upset about them?
Seriously, I don’t know what you are expecting here. Anet is the designer of a product. They designed a product. It has some flaws. We (the customer) have made it very clear what those flaws are. It isn’t incumbent upon us to re-design Anet’s game for them, we just make our feedback clear and then it’s on Anet to come up with the better design.
Every “improvement” they make makes WvW worse and worse. So are you sure you want them to do anything “soon?”
This post is stickied at the top of the forum. It spells out exactly the areas they plan on addressing in the WvW update (population balance, scoring, player rewards). These have been identified as the core problems with WvW by many posts over the last 3 years, as well as the CDI threads a year ago.
Do you want Anet to consult with this forum at every step of the re-design process? Or would you rather have them do the job they’re paid to do, which is to design a better game product, and then put the changes out to the playerbase and adjust them based on feedback after the fact?
Really? Feedback after they introduce the patch? Right.
The whole point of communication is to allow ANet to understand what we, as WvW players, want out of WvW. There’s a whole range of WvW players, from the fighters to the point hunters, large group players and small, which is why feedback needs to reach them during development, not after, which is how we got the absolutely horrendous HoT stuff.
ANet needs to understand that if they deliver what we want through better communication (both ways), it will only improve the final product. Considering there’s been near radio silence on WvW in terms of actually talking to us and asking what we want (except for 1 twitch interview series), that’s just terrible.
Expac sucks for WvW players. Asura master race
Beastgate | Faerie Law
Currently residing on SBI
Beastgate | Faerie Law
Currently residing on SBI
I’m not a fan of the direction of WvW (or PvE for that matter) and I’m not sure how Anet can communicate intended updates to the game before they are built.
I say this as someone with 15 years experience in business application development (plus 2 crappy IOS games) and I have seen the management/developer tug of war up close and from what I’ve seen it usually consists of miscommunication on what someone wants, what someone thinks someone wants, what someone can build and what someone is prepared to build. If this is the case at Anet (which I have no idea if it is) then it wouldn’t surprise me if Anet have put a ban on letting the consumer know what’s coming because they themselves might not have a clue.
There might be other factors that influence communication, like technology used, development processes (waterfall, agile etc), people with a god complex, who knows really… Maybe they promised something to us in the past and couldn’t deliver? Or maybe they’re fed up with our honest feedback on what they’ve built over the past couple of years so they’re giving us the bird.
(edited by StormageddonBK.9842)
Can they just put Alpine back already….I want to play WvW =(.
My opinion of that news is that the “red alert” was triggered in the WvW department, specially with the upcoming MMOs this year that can take away players, so they need very one to stay around.
What this will represent to WvW resurgence? Simple, a bunch of pretty words to make you stick around in a livestream literally a couple of weeks from now that will divide the forums into supporters of change and pessimists (or more likely realists).
ANET will then go back internally and the following scenario plays out:
“We made it! We bought ourselves some time! Now from that dream list what can we truly deliver?”
“Only more golems Sir”
“Then by god soldier, add Golems to that game, add Beta, Delta, Zeta and whatever other letter of the greek alphabet you can think of Golem in there. Make it so that Golem Week is forgotten and pray, pray to all your deities, that the players love it!”
As recent as last month they commented on the new changes comming from Reyana and other commanders. In this dev post here – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/World-vs-World-Holiday-Sneak-Peek
I hope they keep working with the main WvW commanders or at least “take their feedback to heart” like they said in the post.
JQ subsidiary
My opinion of that news is that the “red alert” was triggered in the WvW department, specially with the upcoming MMOs this year that can take away players, so they need very one to stay around.
What this will represent to WvW resurgence? Simple, a bunch of pretty words to make you stick around in a livestream literally a couple of weeks from now that will divide the forums into supporters of change and pessimists (or more likely realists).
ANET will then go back internally and the following scenario plays out:
“We made it! We bought ourselves some time! Now from that dream list what can we truly deliver?”
“Only more golems Sir”
“Then by god soldier, add Golems to that game, add Beta, Delta, Zeta and whatever other letter of the greek alphabet you can think of Golem in there. Make it so that Golem Week is forgotten and pray, pray to all your deities, that the players love it!”
This is likely right. They’ve done this before when other competitors came out or were about to come out. They’ll say a few nebulous words about exciting updates. Maybe flood the forums for a couple days with dev posts. Then when the time passes, it’s all back to normal: no communication while discovering more ways to insert PvE into WvW.
Zerging is only one aspect of wvw. The information from the wvw commanders is useful but A-net needs to take consideration for the roamers as well. I go to EB when I want to zerg and I used to go to the borderlands to roam. Small group play accounts for ~40% of the ppt gained (camps and instant ppt).
Ele – Tarnished Coast
“Quoth the raven nevermore”
Platinum Scout: 300% MF
“Quoth the raven nevermore”
Platinum Scout: 300% MF
This post is stickied at the top of the forum. It spells out exactly the areas they plan on addressing in the WvW update (population balance, scoring, player rewards). These have been identified as the core problems with WvW by many posts over the last 3 years, as well as the CDI threads a year ago.
Do you want Anet to consult with this forum at every step of the re-design process? Or would you rather have them do the job they’re paid to do, which is to design a better game product, and then put the changes out to the playerbase and adjust them based on feedback after the fact?
This post is from 5 months ago. There is nothing concrete here. There isn’t even any specific suggestion of what might be done. I’m not saying I want daily updates about what can or should be done, but I want something like “Here’s a specific thing we’re thinking of implementing. How would we all feel about this”
For EotM, they had guilds come in and try things, but they did so too long after the development of EotM that nothing could really be changed. I want us, the community, to be consulted early enough in the process that any major change is properly thought through by players who actually care about the game mode. I don’t want another dragon banner situation because nobody thought through how creative WvW players can be with abusing things. I don’t want another golem week. I don’t want broken wvw.
They patched dragon banners, are you still upset about them?
Seriously, I don’t know what you are expecting here. Anet is the designer of a product. They designed a product. It has some flaws. We (the customer) have made it very clear what those flaws are. It isn’t incumbent upon us to re-design Anet’s game for them, we just make our feedback clear and then it’s on Anet to come up with the better design.
Have you been playing WvW long? It’s been terrible decision followed by a 3-4 month disaster zone in wvw, followed by an attempt to clean things up. My point isn’t that Anet should fix terribly implemented decisions like banners, it’s that banners were a bad idea in the first place. Why should we have to wait the 3 or 4 months it took Anet to fix dragon banners when we could have simply avoided the entire fiasco.
Furthermore, it had been made quite clear that we must re-design Anet’s game for them because when we don’t, we get things like golem week and dragon banners. I don’t know what could be more clear about this. The WvW community would be more than willing to try any potential changes or maybe just look over some ideas being had about changes. Instead, we’re left with 4 months of a final product that we put up with, abuse and hopefully troll Anet with enough that someone actually does something to change the implemented idea. For example, I know of guilds that made and geared mesmers to troll guilds with known Anet employees in them simply so that someone at Anet would actually do something about dragon banners. I’m not saying these people are the reason for the changes to dragon banners, but it seems awfully coincidental that the trolling commences and a change is rushed through.
Claude – Pink Fairy Mesmer
Brick, there is no need to be ostentatious. After 15-20 years of MMO development it is fairly well known that the production process of cooperative development goes through a number of phases, where each has a certain relationship to player feedback.
The genre implies continuous development and as such community management is also an ongoing process. It is called management for a reason. If the forums were managed John would not have to have made the kind of post he did.
Don’t get me wrong, we appreciate his effort but it is also a reflection of poor overall communication and management, where he (as a designer) has gathered data that should be a weekly report. That is the only feedback gathered so far and it is little more than a one-time reparation of communication flaws.
Past that, game designers tend to sit down and outline theoretical systems. Systems or schemes where player feedback is usually very important because they allow the designers to nip issues in the bud, before they’ve commited development resources to the goal and risk wasting development time on rollbacks.
Once that is done you tend to involve developers (artists, programmers etc.) and flesh out the outlined systems to look at how they can be implemented (technical limitations) before you go into the final production and implementation phases. Player feedback becomes less important there, but also not inconsequential until we reach production.
With that said, ArenaNet generally does not engage in cooperative development (few companies do in the ongoing pseudo-democratic development era of cash-shop games). The community managers and game designers do not operate like in the early days of the decade-old games (like World of Warcraft or EVE Online). When it comes to WvW however, it would very likely be a good idea for ArenaNet to do so, as WvW is this game’s most sandboxy mode where the community creates the content and the old design principles still apply. In WvW, balance can not be replaced by rewards (or distractions).
(edited by Subversion.2580)
“I know of guilds that made and geared mesmers to troll guilds with known Anet employees in them simply so that someone at Anet would actually do something about dragon banners”
Epic. Truly epic. Please pat those people on the back and shake their hands for me. I know them not, but love them dearly.
Have you been playing WvW long? It’s been terrible decision followed by a 3-4 month disaster zone in wvw, followed by an attempt to clean things up. My point isn’t that Anet should fix terribly implemented decisions like banners, it’s that banners were a bad idea in the first place. Why should we have to wait the 3 or 4 months it took Anet to fix dragon banners when we could have simply avoided the entire fiasco.
Furthermore, it had been made quite clear that we must re-design Anet’s game for them because when we don’t, we get things like golem week and dragon banners. I don’t know what could be more clear about this. The WvW community would be more than willing to try any potential changes or maybe just look over some ideas being had about changes. Instead, we’re left with 4 months of a final product that we put up with, abuse and hopefully troll Anet with enough that someone actually does something to change the implemented idea. For example, I know of guilds that made and geared mesmers to troll guilds with known Anet employees in them simply so that someone at Anet would actually do something about dragon banners. I’m not saying these people are the reason for the changes to dragon banners, but it seems awfully coincidental that the trolling commences and a change is rushed through.
I can’t remember the last time I saw an anet tag in WvW.
And anet still don’t get it and they won’t unless they become far more collaborative with all segments of the community. Look at the change to the centre event. We wanted it removed not the time reduced. Its now worse than it was, virtually impossible to defend against it unless you’re there at the start of it.
Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
As recent as last month they commented on the new changes comming from Reyana and other commanders. In this dev post here – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/World-vs-World-Holiday-Sneak-Peek
I hope they keep working with the main WvW commanders or at least “take their feedback to heart” like they said in the post.
Many people would disagree with taking the “T1” commanders advice on fixing WvW and would rather use it as trashcan material.
The problem with listening to a cherry picked interview is that you are only getting 1 perspective. Additionally from what i remember seeing of those only one commander gave an global overview of WvW health, the others were all exceedingly biased.
If I recall correctly Colin said that the culling fix took an entire year of work for one of their senior engineers.
That means either he just made coffee breaks 75% of the time or something about their code is severely broken which makes changes take for ever.
R.I.P Kodasch Allianz [KoA]
All we wanted was a GvG.
All we wanted was a GvG.
WvW: Resurgence of Bile
If I recall correctly Colin said that the culling fix took an entire year of work for one of their senior engineers.
That means either he just made coffee breaks 75% of the time or something about their code is severely broken which makes changes take for ever.
Exactly. We can all agree that Colin needs to stop making kitten up, or acting like he knows what the hell is happening around him, and instead should just start apologizing and being silent.
Legendary PvF Keep Lord Anvu Pansu Senpai
RvR isn’t “endgame”, it’s the only game. Cu in CU.
RvR isn’t “endgame”, it’s the only game. Cu in CU.
(edited by Virtute.8251)
Anet’s communication policy will practically ensure we’ll get an overhaul based on their vague interpretation of what the players want.
Anet reads the forums, but do not directly engage. Without asking for reasons behind a suggestion or criticism you are trying to fix an issue with limited understanding. You have as much chance at fixing the issue as you have of not fixing it at all or making it worse.
As a direct result of this policy Anet doesn’t really release anything to the publikittenil the core is firmly set in stone. The beta weekends for the Desert BLs is a good example of this. Many of the issues raised then caused people to sour on the BLs with no changes made. Not that meaningful changes were possible at that point; the so-called Beta weekends were stress tests at best, or publicity events at worst.
Relentless Inquisition [PAIN] – FA
Anet’s communication policy will practically ensure we’ll get an overhaul based on their vague interpretation of what the players want.
Anet reads the forums, but do not directly engage. Without asking for reasons behind a suggestion or criticism you are trying to fix an issue with limited understanding. You have as much chance at fixing the issue as you have of not fixing it at all or making it worse.
As a direct result of this policy Anet doesn’t really release anything to the publikittenil the core is firmly set in stone. The beta weekends for the Desert BLs is a good example of this. Many of the issues raised then caused people to sour on the BLs with no changes made. Not that meaningful changes were possible at that point; the so-called Beta weekends were stress tests at best, or publicity events at worst.
They already have a very firm and inflexible idea of what they think WvW should be. Whether they read feedback or not, they’re simply not going to change anything of importance as long as it goes against their vision. Unfortunately, their vision is 180 degrees away from what actual WvW players enjoy.
Zerging is only one aspect of wvw. The information from the wvw commanders is useful but A-net needs to take consideration for the roamers as well. I go to EB when I want to zerg and I used to go to the borderlands to roam. Small group play accounts for ~40% of the ppt gained (camps and instant ppt).
Dont worry, they got roamers covered!
Apparently the cap on the borders have been raised to fit more roamers in, so you can bring a 40 man roaming group and still be outmanned against the enemy 120 man roaming group.
Roaming, woooooo!
I just have to wonder exactly how many times the lot of you can post the same stuff over and over again on every single thread on this forum. No matter what the thread is the same people show up spouting the same rhetoric again and again.
Fun Fact. This is called “Having an Agenda” and is well recognized by any forum moderators anywhere. This means that anything you say gets dumped in the same recycle bin.
Anything ever written on these forums has been noted, logged and filed. Continually saying it over and over again combined with passive aggressive threats is just lost time.
Can’t we all just be constructive?
And please don’t give the response “We have been saying this stuff for years and A-Net is not listening”. That is conspiracy stuff. No business doesn’t listen, in fact they probably listen much more than you think. Many people play this game mode we love, in many different ways and when they make decisions it is (more than likely) based on the whole metric not any specific one.
CCCP….
(edited by Trajan.4953)
WvW: Resurgence of Bile
If I recall correctly Colin said that the culling fix took an entire year of work for one of their senior engineers.
That means either he just made coffee breaks 75% of the time or something about their code is severely broken which makes changes take for ever.Exactly. We can all agree that Colin needs to stop making kitten up, or acting like he knows what the hell is happening around him, and instead should just start apologizing and being silent.
Wow. “We all” is like you and one other person, OMG thats like the entire world population man!
I agree that Colin probably doesn’t know everything, but him trying to bring us information he does know is probably the last thing he does need to stop doing. And time spend apologizing is equally wasting when there’s always something in the game someone doesn’t like.
“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik
Only 8 more months before the next block busting changes to wvw! So expect hype to start soon, followed by a sneak peek and 3-4 months of more hype, and then finally the change will be announced: a new special colour dye and a new armor skin for wvw! Yay! Fantastic! Character bound on acquire, requires cs item to trigger, and 10,000 badges…..
After making such a big fuss of reverting a number of failed changes and introducing a changed rally mechanic, my expectations couldn’t be any lower.
By the time the ‘fix’ comes out the majority of us will have quit (I’m not counting EoTM numbers, uplevels/karma farmers, as EOTM isn’t a proper wvw map- doesn’t count towards score, etc).
WvW player. Doing another world completion for my next Legendary. Hater of mini-games.
Wow. “We all” is like you and one other person, OMG thats like the entire world population man!
Okay, except for this one guy who enjoys being wrong. Probably some other similar guys, too.
I agree that Colin probably doesn’t know everything
That’s a void statement. No one knows everything, thus everyone is eligible for that excuse, and therefore it isn’t a meaningful excuse for saying things that are clearly bullkitten, which he did.
but him trying to bring us information he does know is probably the last thing he does need to stop doing.
He didn’t do that. He did make a PR maneuver that attempted to escape a difficult publicity situation with non-information. If you like that sort of thing, then American business “communications” are definitely something you’ll enjoy reading more of! They’ll do nothing if not “stay on message.” Lap it up.
And time spend apologizing is equally wasting when there’s always something in the game someone doesn’t like.
ArenaNet doesn’t need to apologize to children for not gifting them the perfect Christmas toy. ArenaNet needs to apologize for being so locked down in NDA that their employees must effectively behave as if they’re under Secret clearance, and then they need to speak to their customers as adults that are honestly interested in being a part of a gaming and game-building community. Then they need to stop “communicating” with us with stupid claims like this thing about a senior programmer spending a whole year on fixing culling, as if that actually happened in the way the statement implies, and as if that would be a good excuse or even a thing to brag about, if it’s purely true.
An apologetic posture, in that context, would be far from wasted.
Legendary PvF Keep Lord Anvu Pansu Senpai
RvR isn’t “endgame”, it’s the only game. Cu in CU.
RvR isn’t “endgame”, it’s the only game. Cu in CU.
(edited by Virtute.8251)
We have been saying this stuff for years and A-Net is not listening.
Only 8 more months before the next block busting changes to wvw! So expect hype to start soon, followed by a sneak peek and 3-4 months of more hype, and then finally the change will be announced: a new special colour dye and a new armor skin for wvw! Yay! Fantastic! Character bound on acquire, requires cs item to trigger, and 10,000 badges…..
After making such a big fuss of reverting a number of failed changes and introducing a changed rally mechanic, my expectations couldn’t be any lower.
By the time the ‘fix’ comes out the majority of us will have quit (I’m not counting EoTM numbers, uplevels/karma farmers, as EOTM isn’t a proper wvw map- doesn’t count towards score, etc).
agreed, the lack of communication for such a long time followed by announcements that push any feasible change so far out gets expectations up too high and when released it is always a disappointment do to its lack of depth, understanding of what players want (often going in the total opposite direction), poorly thought out complications caused by the change itself.
The pop has already seen this too many times and simply will be diminished permanently. If something is not done soon (like weeks, not 3 months from now advertising change 9 months from now) to legitimize their absence (ANET) and confirm an understanding of how their moves have put players off, any change made in the future will totally be in vain.
Anet’s communication policy will practically ensure we’ll get an overhaul based on their vague interpretation of what the players want.
Anet reads the forums, but do not directly engage. Without asking for reasons behind a suggestion or criticism you are trying to fix an issue with limited understanding. You have as much chance at fixing the issue as you have of not fixing it at all or making it worse.
As a direct result of this policy Anet doesn’t really release anything to the publikittenil the core is firmly set in stone. The beta weekends for the Desert BLs is a good example of this. Many of the issues raised then caused people to sour on the BLs with no changes made. Not that meaningful changes were possible at that point; the so-called Beta weekends were stress tests at best, or publicity events at worst.
Part of the problem is that the Forums are poisoned waters. You can not have meaningful engagement when one person on said forums , just as example, claims class XXX overpowered as another claims it pointless to play because “Anet has nerfed it”. This happens in virtually every single profession forum. People that champion one very specific change to a trait or skill will claim ANET does not listen if that skill not implemented even as ANET implements a dozen others the players asked for.
In WvW there very much the same thing with groups that hate the point aspects of the game and wanting more fighting, others insisting it cater to GvG battles while another faction prefers the PPK. We have guys people that want to break up the blobs and others insist that blob fights the way to go. We have people who do not want points to accrue on “off hours” while the peoeple that play the game “off hours” ask why they being ignored.
Under such conditions it very difficult to “engage the player base”
It can certainly be done in a better manner than it is today but it certainly not that easy a thing to do. Ultimately ANET has to make game change decisions and not individual players and no matter what changes they make, there will be people on the boards that do not like them.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Anet’s communication policy will practically ensure we’ll get an overhaul based on their vague interpretation of what the players want.
Anet reads the forums, but do not directly engage. Without asking for reasons behind a suggestion or criticism you are trying to fix an issue with limited understanding. You have as much chance at fixing the issue as you have of not fixing it at all or making it worse.
As a direct result of this policy Anet doesn’t really release anything to the publikittenil the core is firmly set in stone. The beta weekends for the Desert BLs is a good example of this. Many of the issues raised then caused people to sour on the BLs with no changes made. Not that meaningful changes were possible at that point; the so-called Beta weekends were stress tests at best, or publicity events at worst.
Part of the problem is that the Forums are poisoned waters. You can not have meaningful engagement when one person on said forums , just as example, claims class XXX overpowered as another claims it pointless to play because “Anet has nerfed it”. This happens in virtually every single profession forum. People that champion one very specific change to a trait or skill will claim ANET does not listen if that skill not implemented even as ANET implements a dozen others the players asked for.
In WvW there very much the same thing with groups that hate the point aspects of the game and wanting more fighting, others insisting it cater to GvG battles while another faction prefers the PPK. We have guys people that want to break up the blobs and others insist that blob fights the way to go. We have people who do not want points to accrue on “off hours” while the peoeple that play the game “off hours” ask why they being ignored.
Under such conditions it very difficult to “engage the player base”
It can certainly be done in a better manner than it is today but it certainly not that easy a thing to do. Ultimately ANET has to make game change decisions and not individual players and no matter what changes they make, there will be people on the boards that do not like them.
To be fair to the English language, it is in no way difficult to engage the player base. Talking and writing are the easiest ways to do so, and neither is happening. In every one of the instances you mentioned about overpowered classes, underpowered classes, etc, a dev could quite easily nip everything in the bud and say “We’re aware of potential imbalances with such and such a build and we’re looking into it, we might not change it if we don’t find it to be too over/underpowered.” Simple. Effective. Nobody can complain that they’re not being heard, just that maybe their point is not getting across to the devs. If the devs actually wrote things like this, to claim a class is over- or underpowered, you’d need proof that you’re doing less damage, less sustainable, etc. At the moment, people have gotten lazy with their criticisms because there is a (reasonable) assumption that Anet is not listening.
Now, moving to the WvW portion of your post, nobody actually insists on strictly GvG fights, do they? GvGers simply wanted a place to go where they could conduct themselves according to their own rules. If you mean GvG as in guilds fighting each other open field, they simply want a lesser impact from siege camping individuals inside towers and whatnot. Today, for example, we could get nothing done anywhere near SM because a few people were sitting on cannons that could reach further than we’d ever dream to siege. We couldn’t fight things because we were always in cannon range. The blob or non-blob argument has been and always will be there, and there’s really no way around it. The nature of a map means that one of the two tactics will be superior depending on how it’s implemented. I’ve seen numerous smaller groups taking camps and towers, contributing to ppt while also fighting other small groups and picking off players from large zergs.
Also, I think you mean PPT. PPK is something which has been welcomed by pretty much any fights-oriented player that I know.
Tl;dr: Anet’s lack of communication is not the result of toxic forums. Toxic forums and lazy posts are the result of poor communication. It could be easily fixed if the right people decided to fix it. I’m waiting for the Anet employee to finally break and write a tell-all about the ins and outs of the tyrannical forum monitoring team vetting and preventing any meaningful post.
Claude – Pink Fairy Mesmer
- snip -
You don’t even know what you’re talking about.
Just taking your whole “this is a void statement, no one knows everything”-comment for example. I obviously am posting in a game forum, a gw2 forum, on a developers response, regarding a specific subject in the game which is quite technical. I kind of expected you to understand that when I said that Colin indeed doesn’t know everything, meant that he doesn’t know all the exact details of what each person in the company is doing. (That’s why you don’t cut on sentence out of context, btw)
If the person took a year, I’m willing to believe that. Was it possible in a shorter time than that? I have no clue. Hell, if I search Network server culling on Google the stuff on gamedev forums sound like that it’s not that simple to solve at all, but is mostly very technical. If I would take anything with a grain of salt, it’s some random post on some niche back-alley forum.
You need to stop making up some random story what is going on behind the scenes, just because you don’t understand what is really going on.
“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik
Anet’s communication policy will practically ensure we’ll get an overhaul based on their vague interpretation of what the players want.
Anet reads the forums, but do not directly engage. Without asking for reasons behind a suggestion or criticism you are trying to fix an issue with limited understanding. You have as much chance at fixing the issue as you have of not fixing it at all or making it worse.
As a direct result of this policy Anet doesn’t really release anything to the publikittenil the core is firmly set in stone. The beta weekends for the Desert BLs is a good example of this. Many of the issues raised then caused people to sour on the BLs with no changes made. Not that meaningful changes were possible at that point; the so-called Beta weekends were stress tests at best, or publicity events at worst.
Part of the problem is that the Forums are poisoned waters. You can not have meaningful engagement when one person on said forums , just as example, claims class XXX overpowered as another claims it pointless to play because “Anet has nerfed it”. This happens in virtually every single profession forum. People that champion one very specific change to a trait or skill will claim ANET does not listen if that skill not implemented even as ANET implements a dozen others the players asked for.
In WvW there very much the same thing with groups that hate the point aspects of the game and wanting more fighting, others insisting it cater to GvG battles while another faction prefers the PPK. We have guys people that want to break up the blobs and others insist that blob fights the way to go. We have people who do not want points to accrue on “off hours” while the peoeple that play the game “off hours” ask why they being ignored.
Under such conditions it very difficult to “engage the player base”
It can certainly be done in a better manner than it is today but it certainly not that easy a thing to do. Ultimately ANET has to make game change decisions and not individual players and no matter what changes they make, there will be people on the boards that do not like them.
To be fair to the English language, it is in no way difficult to engage the player base. Talking and writing are the easiest ways to do so, and neither is happening. In every one of the instances you mentioned about overpowered classes, underpowered classes, etc, a dev could quite easily nip everything in the bud and say “We’re aware of potential imbalances with such and such a build and we’re looking into it, we might not change it if we don’t find it to be too over/underpowered.” Simple. Effective. Nobody can complain that they’re not being heard, just that maybe their point is not getting across to the devs. If the devs actually wrote things like this, to claim a class is over- or underpowered, you’d need proof that you’re doing less damage, less sustainable, etc. At the moment, people have gotten lazy with their criticisms because there is a (reasonable) assumption that Anet is not listening.
Now, moving to the WvW portion of your post, nobody actually insists on strictly GvG fights, do they? GvGers simply wanted a place to go where they could conduct themselves according to their own rules. If you mean GvG as in guilds fighting each other open field, they simply want a lesser impact from siege camping individuals inside towers and whatnot. Today, for example, we could get nothing done anywhere near SM because a few people were sitting on cannons that could reach further than we’d ever dream to siege. We couldn’t fight things because we were always in cannon range. The blob or non-blob argument has been and always will be there, and there’s really no way around it. The nature of a map means that one of the two tactics will be superior depending on how it’s implemented. I’ve seen numerous smaller groups taking camps and towers, contributing to ppt while also fighting other small groups and picking off players from large zergs.
Also, I think you mean PPT. PPK is something which has been welcomed by pretty much any fights-oriented player that I know.
Tl;dr: Anet’s lack of communication is not the result of toxic forums. Toxic forums and lazy posts are the result of poor communication. It could be easily fixed if the right people decided to fix it. I’m waiting for the Anet employee to finally break and write a tell-all about the ins and outs of the tyrannical forum monitoring team vetting and preventing any meaningful post.
I suggest you are not being objective and are just filtering out the posts and threads that do not suit your view of meaningful engagement.
Just go back and read some of the posts in this very thread or look at the headings of some of the topics started by players such as “One Liners for Anet” and tell me how they help to move the game forward and give the devs any sort of idea of what can truly help WvW?
I have already stated that ANET can improve on its communication problems. I also stated these boards have many toxic posters and are toxic for the sake of it and no this is not “because of Anet”. I have worked in the Computer services industry for a long time and there has always been customers that were toxic.
Indeed my current boss has offcialy “fired” a number of Customers (sent letters annulling the contracts and indicating they would get no further service through our firm) because they were unrelenting in their demands and denigrating his employees continously.
A little respect for people trying to do a job can go a long way. This game does have a whole lot of people who feel that just because they have spent 40 dollars, they can demand employees be fired or question their competence.
The fact remains many of the players demands for changed gameplay are unreasonable and there is no uiniversal consensus by the players as to what changes should be made.
My own opinion is the DEVS should not respond directly here on the boards to players questions and demands . They should spend their time setting things right and not wading through all these posts looking for insights. It should be done as it is being done , that by a person like Gaile who can collate all of the posts, strip out the nonsense and come back with regular updates. In so doing the player should not expect a continous back and forth engagement where each and every individual has his or her questions answered or concerns addressed. The issues addressed should be those that are of the greatest concern to the greatest number of people.
If I recall correctly Colin said that the culling fix took an entire year of work for one of their senior engineers.
That means either he just made coffee breaks 75% of the time or something about their code is severely broken which makes changes take for ever.
He also said that it took them 5 years to develop WvW. 5 years? Seriously? And what launched was a culling, lagfest nightmare consisting of 2 maps? Whoever was in charge of that and worked on that needs to never be in the industry again if that’s what came out of 5 years worth of work. It takes about 1.5 to 2 years to make a multi-million dollar movie.
I would like to say I’ve seen a lot of “the sky is falling” comments. This last patch helped a lot by getting rid of automatic upgrades and nerfing the banner.
Blackgate Native. It takes tremendous strength and skill to pull a lever.
If I recall correctly Colin said that the culling fix took an entire year of work for one of their senior engineers.
That means either he just made coffee breaks 75% of the time or something about their code is severely broken which makes changes take for ever.He also said that it took them 5 years to develop WvW. 5 years? Seriously? And what launched was a culling, lagfest nightmare consisting of 2 maps? Whoever was in charge of that and worked on that needs to never be in the industry again if that’s what came out of 5 years worth of work. It takes about 1.5 to 2 years to make a multi-million dollar movie.
I would like to say I’ve seen a lot of “the sky is falling” comments. This last patch helped a lot by getting rid of automatic upgrades and nerfing the banner.
The development time for Diablo III started in 2001 and was not released until 2012. This game is not an MMO which are much harder to balance in game terms. Nor does it have a WvW component involving hundreds of players interacting with one another on an ongoing basis.
Elder scrolls online took a full seven years of development time and did not enjoy a smooth launch.
As you seem to be an authority on game development, could you direct me to games that you have designed and developed? I will give them a try!
(edited by babazhook.6805)
If I recall correctly Colin said that the culling fix took an entire year of work for one of their senior engineers.
That means either he just made coffee breaks 75% of the time or something about their code is severely broken which makes changes take for ever.He also said that it took them 5 years to develop WvW. 5 years? Seriously? And what launched was a culling, lagfest nightmare consisting of 2 maps? Whoever was in charge of that and worked on that needs to never be in the industry again if that’s what came out of 5 years worth of work. It takes about 1.5 to 2 years to make a multi-million dollar movie.
I would like to say I’ve seen a lot of “the sky is falling” comments. This last patch helped a lot by getting rid of automatic upgrades and nerfing the banner.
Creating a video games and making movies are the same thing? I’m sure it takes way longer to create a video game then it does to get some actors to act in front of a green screen for a couple of takes.
A little respect for people trying to do a job can go a long way. This game does have a whole lot of people who feel that just because they have spent 40 dollars, they can demand employees be fired or question their competence.
An issue here is that WvW players feel that anet neither respect them nor the mode itself eg. Mike O’Brien’s comments on WvW players.
Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
A little respect for people trying to do a job can go a long way. This game does have a whole lot of people who feel that just because they have spent 40 dollars, they can demand employees be fired or question their competence.
An issue here is that WvW players feel that anet neither respect them nor the mode itself eg. Mike O’Brien’s comments on WvW players.
Well I am in firm disagreement with Mr O’briens comments on WvW but they show a lack of understanding as to what motivates a WvW player rather than a lack of respect.
It is hard to explain the appeal of a given game mode to a person that does not find it appealing.
I suggest you are not being objective and are just filtering out the posts and threads that do not suit your view of meaningful engagement.
Just go back and read some of the posts in this very thread or look at the headings of some of the topics started by players such as “One Liners for Anet” and tell me how they help to move the game forward and give the devs any sort of idea of what can truly help WvW?
I have already stated that ANET can improve on its communication problems. I also stated these boards have many toxic posters and are toxic for the sake of it and no this is not “because of Anet”. I have worked in the Computer services industry for a long time and there has always been customers that were toxic.
Indeed my current boss has offcialy “fired” a number of Customers (sent letters annulling the contracts and indicating they would get no further service through our firm) because they were unrelenting in their demands and denigrating his employees continously.
A little respect for people trying to do a job can go a long way. This game does have a whole lot of people who feel that just because they have spent 40 dollars, they can demand employees be fired or question their competence.
The fact remains many of the players demands for changed gameplay are unreasonable and there is no uiniversal consensus by the players as to what changes should be made.
My own opinion is the DEVS should not respond directly here on the boards to players questions and demands . They should spend their time setting things right and not wading through all these posts looking for insights. It should be done as it is being done , that by a person like Gaile who can collate all of the posts, strip out the nonsense and come back with regular updates. In so doing the player should not expect a continous back and forth engagement where each and every individual has his or her questions answered or concerns addressed. The issues addressed should be those that are of the greatest concern to the greatest number of people.
I didn’t ever mean to suggest that all threads in these forums are useful. I don’t even know if any of them are useful. What I was trying to get across is that if Anet had a forum coordinator like Gaile who could give and receive information, we’d all have a better and more productive experience on these forums. Either way, you cannot with any certainty say that these forums would look anything like they currently do (in tone or in content) if the devs adopted a more communicative posture. Is a thread just meaningless drivel? Ignore it. Is the thread about a legitimate concern that the community and maybe a few devs have? Respond to it. Did you see something happen this week in an ESO tournament or in your free time when you’re not being a dev? Take note and bring it up at work, then write that you’re going to look into it asap so that we’re not freaking out. Are hackers low on the totem pole of things to do? Tell us and we’ll stop expecting it to be fixed. Are dragon banners supposed to be combined with continuum split? No. So write about it before the community freaks out that you’re not responding to them.
If things continue, players will suggest things. Devs will or will not read them. They will do as they will with that information. Instead, if devs popped into the meaningful threads, such as the one right now concerning only having unranked pvp in the off-season, and they mentioned something, even just “We’re looking into it, but it is or is not a high priority” players would respond in kind. Likewise, if the Diamond Skin ele thread was quickly and efficiently met by a dev saying “yes, we think it needs to be addressed, we’re playing with some ideas now” we would waste much less time and energy trying to get a dev’s attention to a problem that is already acknowledged.
Do they need to give us every detail of their entire day of work? No. I’d love to see it for my own purposes, but it’s not necessary. However, if Gaile (or someone else, idk. Seems like she’s not doing it, so it’s obviously not part of her job, so maybe make it someone’s job?) every Monday presents the team with a quick summary of the forum’s thoughts and concerns about the game and then quickly gives a “here are the team’s big thoughts about these things,” players would at least feel listened to. It doesn’t even need to be every week. Every two weeks could work. Maybe just the 2 Fridays following a major balance patch. Who knows.
You mention your boss ripping up contracts. Not communicating is Anet’s way of ripping up contracts, it seems. Can they afford to do so? I doubt it. Most of my friend’s list is from WvW and more and more of them are simply not logging on or buying expansions. Guild Wars 2, unlike subscription based games, does not have the luxury of measuring their player base as easily and does not get a monthly stream of money. They must rely on our continued playing of the game. There’s a new expansion coming. If the game modes that I play don’t get addressed, the likelihood that I will buy the expansion decreases dramatically. Same goes for most of my friends. Same goes for most of my guilds (the ones that are not yet dead because of the current state of WvW).
I give respect to devs when I can. That is quickly waning, though. I love Tyler. He’s a great dev (maybe he’s not a dev, idk at this point). He was a cool dude to run with a few times, but eventually the things I like about devs get overshadowed by my frustration with the devs (no longer about Tyler here, he probably has nothing to do with any of this). I try to remain civil, nevertheless. The same thing happens when politicians begin to ignore their constituents. The constituents begin to look for a different leader. Same goes for any company that you choose to continue supporting. It’s cheaper for companies to retain customers than it is to get new ones. Maybe that’s not the case for Anet. Maybe they want to take WvW out of the equation. I’m not sure. Perhaps the grass isn’t greener on the other side, but from my perspective, I’m going to check the other side of every hill until the grass over here is greener or until I find greener grass.
Also, if you only spent $40 on this game, you’re one of few that I know. Server transfers, makeover kits, expansions, character slots, etc etc. I’ve spent about $20 on this game each month that I’m playing and I feel like my game mode is being respected. That, for the most part, has stopped for the past ~year. Again, I’m not the only one. Is my business essential for Anet to function? No. Should my business being essential to Anet be required in order for some communication to come to the WvW community? No. Not at all.
I don’t need it to be fixed by tomorrow. I want it to be addressed, though. The quicker the better. It took me, what? 15 minutes to write this? Surely 15 minutes a week of a dev outlining things they’ll be working on isn’t too much to ask for. Let’s be generous and say 1 hour every two weeks devoted to each game mode. That’d be great. Hey, we even have a forum for that every Friday at noon. But hey, when’s the last time the stream on Friday has been about WvW? Has to be a few months ago by now. I’d absolutely hate to see a company which I work for lose customers because they’re unwilling to address their customers.
I’m sure I forgot some things, but hey! It’s not like this thread will be responded to by a dev anyways. I’d offer to eat my hat if they did, but I know one of them will pop in just to spite me.
Claude – Pink Fairy Mesmer
I dont understand how hard can it be? just bring the old maps back, stop doing stupid changes to wvw, put stability back the way it were. THEN you ANET can focus on changing small stuffs, but dont change big stuffs like the maps when you have so many other things to change.
[WvW] Thanks Anet for listening to your players during 2016.
Far Shiverpeaks – EU – Since release.
Far Shiverpeaks – EU – Since release.
If I recall correctly Colin said that the culling fix took an entire year of work for one of their senior engineers.
That means either he just made coffee breaks 75% of the time or something about their code is severely broken which makes changes take for ever.He also said that it took them 5 years to develop WvW. 5 years? Seriously? And what launched was a culling, lagfest nightmare consisting of 2 maps? Whoever was in charge of that and worked on that needs to never be in the industry again if that’s what came out of 5 years worth of work. It takes about 1.5 to 2 years to make a multi-million dollar movie.
I would like to say I’ve seen a lot of “the sky is falling” comments. This last patch helped a lot by getting rid of automatic upgrades and nerfing the banner.
The development time for Diablo III started in 2001 and was not released until 2012. This game is not an MMO which are much harder to balance in game terms. Nor does it have a WvW component involving hundreds of players interacting with one another on an ongoing basis.
Elder scrolls online took a full seven years of development time and did not enjoy a smooth launch.
As you seem to be an authority on game development, could you direct me to games that you have designed and developed? I will give them a try!
He didn’t say it took 5 years to develop GW2, he said it took 5 years to develop WvW. Try reading.
Blackgate Native. It takes tremendous strength and skill to pull a lever.
If I recall correctly Colin said that the culling fix took an entire year of work for one of their senior engineers.
That means either he just made coffee breaks 75% of the time or something about their code is severely broken which makes changes take for ever.He also said that it took them 5 years to develop WvW. 5 years? Seriously? And what launched was a culling, lagfest nightmare consisting of 2 maps? Whoever was in charge of that and worked on that needs to never be in the industry again if that’s what came out of 5 years worth of work. It takes about 1.5 to 2 years to make a multi-million dollar movie.
I would like to say I’ve seen a lot of “the sky is falling” comments. This last patch helped a lot by getting rid of automatic upgrades and nerfing the banner.
The development time for Diablo III started in 2001 and was not released until 2012. This game is not an MMO which are much harder to balance in game terms. Nor does it have a WvW component involving hundreds of players interacting with one another on an ongoing basis.
Elder scrolls online took a full seven years of development time and did not enjoy a smooth launch.
As you seem to be an authority on game development, could you direct me to games that you have designed and developed? I will give them a try!
He didn’t say it took 5 years to develop GW2, he said it took 5 years to develop WvW. Try reading.
Immaterial.
You can not develop WvW without getting the rest of the game in place first. Any changes to core game will change WvW. Do you really think WvW can be done without a core game in place first? detail to me how that done?
Other online games that had WvW components took as long if not longer to develop that part of the game as the core took. The game “The Age of Conan” had its own type of WvW released with it and THAT was a mess that took years to clean up. I am not even sure it works yet and they invested many years trying to make it work even before the game released.
Warhammer online in its realm versus realm ported over a system from Dark Age of Camelot. Again that RvR took years to develop and even as people proclaiming it the second coming, the game dropped off the radar. I am not even sure it around anymore.
If someone is going to suggest another should be fired because it took him 5 years to develop a WvW online game as part of a larger game, I really want to know what his credentials are to make such a statement and his own track record in developing games. If one does a little research on ones own these are not things that can be slapped together in the time it takes to make a movie and if it were , there would be yet more whining over how “broken” it all is.
There are not a whole lot of these types of games around . Startrek Online was worked on for 4 years before the company went bankrupt and it took another 6 years after that to get it launched. This is not “making a movie”.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
Do you want Anet to consult with this forum at every step of the re-design process? Or would you rather have them do the job they’re paid to do, which is to design a better game product, and then put the changes out to the playerbase and adjust them based on feedback after the fact?
As I have posted before, YES I would like them to consult with the forums at a stage where things are not locked into place and cannot be changed. You may not have noticed but there have been NO significant changes to the new BL maps, yet they are a disaster for the game mode. Anet doesn’t appear to be able to do what they are getting paid for, in terms of WvW development.
I would certainly want them to be honest and open about their plans and discuss them with us, their PAYING customers. The reason that the Desert Borderlands is so disliked is that anet devs decided what people wanted rather than asked them.
A sandbox version, so people can play, get used to it, and provide feedback before it goes live would be a godsend to them.
Then they might actually produce something that people want to play again.
Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Time out. Time out. Time out.
The GW2 forums are two separate stories. There are the PvE and PvP forums, where the devs actively filter through the topics and communicate regularly. Then there are the WvW forums, where they don’t say a word. WvW is currently a disaster. Yet people are making up BS excuses and acting like Anet is able to handle something on one section of the forums, yet turn into drooling imbeciles and can’t handle the same exact thing on another section of the forums? Really? “Oh, it’s super tough technical stuff and it’s really really hard and complicated, so it’s ok for them to be incompetent at their jobs, and no meanies are allowed to say that they are, cause it might hurt their feelings!” And….. we’re supposed to fall for that….? Really….?
Look, if they can do the job in one section of the forums, they can do them in all sections of the forums. To state otherwise is completely disingenuous, and pure BS. The fact is, they show what’s important to them through where they focus their communication efforts. PvE and now PvP are important to them. They couldn’t care less about WvW. To ask everyone to just ignore everything over the past 3 years is insane and stupid. No. Pay attention too, and stop asking people to bury their head in the sand. Look at how they treated the RP crowd. They tried to placate them with hollow words, while actively screwing them over. The same exact thing they’ve been doing to the WvW crowd. With the PvP and PvE crowds, they’re actively engaging them in conversation, and putting real effort into improving those game modes. They’re not ignoring suggestions, pushing hideously flawed content out once every couple of years despite feedback explaining the flaws, then hiding behind a wall of silence for months with PvE and PvP. Why should it be acceptable for it to happen in WvW? And why shouldn’t customers be allowed to voice their displeasure about it? Because some White Knights on a forum expect everyone to deify video game developers, and demonize anyone who isn’t kowtowing to them? Fortunately, the playerbase isn’t that stupid, and a good portion have spoken louder than any words could. They’ve left. That trumps pretty much any apologetic mental gymnastics. Until Anet starts treating WvW with the same level of dedication they’re giving PvE and PvP, and that includes communication on the forums as well, it’s just going to keep going downhill. That isn’t an unreasonable request. That isn’t too much to ask for. That should have been standard from the very beginning.
Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Time out. Time out. Time out.
The GW2 forums are two separate stories. snip
Well, to be fair, the “devs” have been fairly quiet on the PvE front as well. PvP and Raids have been getting quite a bit of attention, but given how messed up the general game is right now, they are really not saying much at all. That said, it’s even worse for WvW where we get NO interaction at all…..
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