Guild Wars 2

Downed state is a great addition to sPVP. I agree though it is problematic in large engagements and makes it basically impossible for a smaller force to really beat a larger one.

Dware.4259:

waeren.9743:

Well we are not exactly talking about “many”. DAoC subscription numbers weren’t exactly huge but the players just seem to be pretty vocal.

Actually DAOC’s 250k was huge back in the day.

Different era before wow.

Good Point.
Have a look at WoW’s early numbers as well. They had only about 250k. The reason they grew so large over time was their PvE focus and excellent IP.

RPG PvP has always been a bit of a niche and PvP-centric games simply don’t support the numbers typically that PvE games do. That doesn’t make the points of players from past PvP-centric games any less valid; contrarily, they are more-so due to this entire discussion being about PvP.

And no one that has not played DAoC will say that they did it better then the rest. Maybe you should’ve tried some other games? Can we agree to disagree? :P

As I said great idea’s are welcome, but DAoC ones and not DAoC ones.

All these DAoC references are just getting old quick. We all know them by now. Should I start posting L2/EQ(2)/SWG/Eve/WoW in every thread to balance it out a bit? After all, all most of those had bigger subscription numbers.

DAOC wasn’t small but it wasn’t huge either, even by the standards of the time. EQ was always substantially more successful IIRC.

Dware.4259:

waeren.9743:

Well we are not exactly talking about “many”. DAoC subscription numbers weren’t exactly huge but the players just seem to be pretty vocal.

Actually DAOC’s 250k was huge back in the day.

Different era before wow.

Exactly. Every post he brings up the “low” sub numbers. It was a gen2 mmo and those numbers were massive. WoW changed it all by dumbing the game down and making it where my mom could successfully play. DAoC was the FIRST with a 3 way open pvp war where you had “forced” allies. Instead of a FFA style, it was team based. It evolved over about 6 years then settled into what it is now. It WAS revolutionary and held peoples attention for a long time. This game needs to take the good parts of RvR and intergrate them or the game will die out. Look at WAR which was wow/daokittene. Hows that doing?

dooger.2640:

My guild has done WvW or Rvr for eons, we love it but the current wvw in gw2 does not cut it.

We expect and normally love fighting big zergs, and love the trash talk and community that normally forms with rolling huge numbers with good groups.

But here the pvp is all anonymous, no-name, no infamy stuff. Who is kicking kitten in the zone? who knows. In warhammer you could see who was tearing it up, from kill spam and mods to track it. We had people that were fun to fight against, and had long standing feuds & rivalries, that turned into friendships (we have had several old enemies join us in new games). Here its all dry toast…

The normal fun of fighting huge numbers with a smaller force, if further dumbed down with the orbs, and the downed system. The old triad in structured groups is replaced with 2 roles: killers and stakers. One group is maxed out dps to down people fast, and the other is on stake duty. This works very very well, but its garbage game play. People don’t want to stake rez, I even hear people wishing they could heal and be part of the action again.

Rezzing is great in pve and garbage rvr (the bad players all standing 10 feet apart shooting arrows),it jsut breaks down in anything coordinated really really fast.

In any event, my suggestions (That I am sure other have brought up as well)
- Orbs need to be toned way down, way too much to hand the already dominating faction (and likely dominating at night)
- Show enemy player names, and show some zone statistics on kills/ rez/ whatever, lets give people some bragging rights and attempt to get community going
- Downed system is not an easy fix, but its just not fun in high end pvp. Remove the invulnerability when going down in WvW as a start, and keep it as is for pve.

Daoc was a great game and the bragging rights and knowing who your fighting was one of the best things they had in their RvR system but this was said and asked many many times in beta and was sadly rejected by the devs. If they change their minds it would be a great move but i think there is a few more important issues. Downed system, map size (too small), invisible players, queues, lag, looting and night capping ( even though i know it’s a 24 hour battle, i think it’s unfair players who play from USA play on designated EU servers just to cap everything without defenders and vice versa).

waeren.9743:

And no one that has not played DAoC will say that they did it better then the rest. Maybe you should’ve tried some other games? Can we agree to disagree? :P

As I said great idea’s are welcome, but DAoC ones and not DAoC ones.

All these DAoC references are just getting old quick. We all know them by now. Should I start posting L2/EQ(2)/SWG/Eve/WoW in every thread to balance it out a bit? After all, all most of those had bigger subscription numbers.

Except all of those are PvE-centric games with 2-faction short-game PvP making them useless examples in terms of this style PvP. (With maybe SWG and EvE being possible exceptions. However EvE is a sandbox and SWG was still 2 faction or FFA)

P.S. – None of those were cited by Devs as being even remote inspirations for their WvW system to boot.

Well we are not exactly talking about “many”.
DAoC subscription numbers weren’t exactly huge but the players just seem to be pretty vocal.

This is true but in Daoc we didn’t need to queue to get in to the “End Game”, they had servers and the technology for everyone to RvR with no lag, no invisible players, small groups could take on large groups by good team work and a system which made you keep playing through their Realm Rank system. GW2 supports zerging and it’s the zerging which made ppl quit many mmo’s with similar open pvp content.

fefner.5729:

Well we are not exactly talking about “many”.
DAoC subscription numbers weren’t exactly huge but the players just seem to be pretty vocal.

This is true but in Daoc we didn’t need to queue to get in to the “End Game”, they had servers and the technology for everyone to RvR with no lag, no invisible players, small groups could take on large groups by good team work and a system which made you keep playing through their Realm Rank system. GW2 supports zerging and it’s the zerging which made ppl quit many mmo’s with similar open pvp content.

This is where I’ll have to disagree with DAoC being the “Messiah” of PvP MMOs. Early DAoC RvR was just as, if not MORE laggy than WvW and just as zergy (Anyone else remember zergs having to take off cloaks so ppl wouldn’t crash?). It took quite a while for hardware to catch up. I expect the same thing to happen in GW2 over time.

Adaneshade.2409:

fefner.5729:

Well we are not exactly talking about “many”.
DAoC subscription numbers weren’t exactly huge but the players just seem to be pretty vocal.

This is true but in Daoc we didn’t need to queue to get in to the “End Game”, they had servers and the technology for everyone to RvR with no lag, no invisible players, small groups could take on large groups by good team work and a system which made you keep playing through their Realm Rank system. GW2 supports zerging and it’s the zerging which made ppl quit many mmo’s with similar open pvp content.

This is where I’ll have to disagree with DAoC being the “Messiah” of PvP MMOs. Early DAoC RvR was just as, if not MORE laggy than WvW and just as zergy (Anyone else remember zergs having to take off cloaks so ppl wouldn’t crash?). It took quite a while for hardware to catch up. I expect the same thing to happen in GW2 over time.

This was only during relic raids. Yes, i too remember having to look at the ground, take my cloak off, and /stick and hope it made it to the keep. Outside of that massive force though (200+ people in one area going to fight antoher 200+ defending) the lag was almost non-existent. In this game a group of say 30 vs 30 , and most of the toons dont even load… its 2012 why is this kinda crap happening? Hell, I could even see the color and different armor types of the enemy! Not here. That game tracked all the same stuff this one does PLUS more and this was 12 years ago.

Also, once they went from flat file into to an actual database, that cured a ton of their lag issues (yup, original daoc digged info from flat files ala MUDs.)

tarnin.1690:

Dware.4259:

waeren.9743:

Well we are not exactly talking about “many”. DAoC subscription numbers weren’t exactly huge but the players just seem to be pretty vocal.

Actually DAOC’s 250k was huge back in the day.

Different era before wow.

Exactly. Every post he brings up the “low” sub numbers. It was a gen2 mmo and those numbers were massive. WoW changed it all by dumbing the game down and making it where my mom could successfully play. DAoC was the FIRST with a 3 way open pvp war where you had “forced” allies. Instead of a FFA style, it was team based. It evolved over about 6 years then settled into what it is now. It WAS revolutionary and held peoples attention for a long time. This game needs to take the good parts of RvR and intergrate them or the game will die out. Look at WAR which was wow/daokittene. Hows that doing?

Well it wasn’t many, I’m not saying it was low.

About the numbers that UO had, about half of EQ had, less then l2, less then half of FFXI, less then swg, 1/10th of lineage subs. So yes I guess those numbers are ok but I wouldn’t call them huge.

If we would be using logic the this game should be a wow clone since it has lost less population percentage wise then DAoC?

It’s nice that you liked DAoC and yes some great suggestions have been made by DAoC people. But please DAoC is not this god game you proclaim it to be.

The difference is GW2 is using physics computations in particle effects which DAoC did not. There is quite a bit more being computed in a GW2 30v30 than a DAOC 200v200. Just give the hardware time to catch up.

tarnin.1690:

Adaneshade.2409:

fefner.5729:

Well we are not exactly talking about “many”.
DAoC subscription numbers weren’t exactly huge but the players just seem to be pretty vocal.

This is true but in Daoc we didn’t need to queue to get in to the “End Game”, they had servers and the technology for everyone to RvR with no lag, no invisible players, small groups could take on large groups by good team work and a system which made you keep playing through their Realm Rank system. GW2 supports zerging and it’s the zerging which made ppl quit many mmo’s with similar open pvp content.

This is where I’ll have to disagree with DAoC being the “Messiah” of PvP MMOs. Early DAoC RvR was just as, if not MORE laggy than WvW and just as zergy (Anyone else remember zergs having to take off cloaks so ppl wouldn’t crash?). It took quite a while for hardware to catch up. I expect the same thing to happen in GW2 over time.

This was only during relic raids. Yes, i too remember having to look at the ground, take my cloak off, and /stick and hope it made it to the keep. Outside of that massive force though (200+ people in one area going to fight antoher 200+ defending) the lag was almost non-existent. In this game a group of say 30 vs 30 , and most of the toons dont even load… its 2012 why is this kinda crap happening? Hell, I could even see the color and different armor types of the enemy! Not here. That game tracked all the same stuff this one does PLUS more and this was 12 years ago.

Also, once they went from flat file into to an actual database, that cured a ton of their lag issues (yup, original daoc digged info from flat files ala MUDs.)

Well we expect more from a game as well. All these extra polygons,shaders, textures, … are quite a bit more taxing.

Also without subscriptions I’m guessing they have to be a bit more careful with server/bandwidth costs.

Wish that culling issue didn’t exist though -_-;

waeren.9743:

tarnin.1690:

Dware.4259:

waeren.9743:

Well we are not exactly talking about “many”. DAoC subscription numbers weren’t exactly huge but the players just seem to be pretty vocal.

Actually DAOC’s 250k was huge back in the day.

Different era before wow.

Exactly. Every post he brings up the “low” sub numbers. It was a gen2 mmo and those numbers were massive. WoW changed it all by dumbing the game down and making it where my mom could successfully play. DAoC was the FIRST with a 3 way open pvp war where you had “forced” allies. Instead of a FFA style, it was team based. It evolved over about 6 years then settled into what it is now. It WAS revolutionary and held peoples attention for a long time. This game needs to take the good parts of RvR and intergrate them or the game will die out. Look at WAR which was wow/daokittene. Hows that doing?

Well it wasn’t many, I’m not saying it was low.

About the numbers that UO had, about half of EQ had, less then l2, less then half of FFXI, less then swg, 1/10th of lineage subs. So yes I guess those numbers are ok but I wouldn’t call them huge.

If we would be using logic the this game should be a wow clone since it has lost less population percentage wise then DAoC?

It’s nice that you liked DAoC and yes some great suggestions have been made by DAoC people. But please DAoC is not this god game you proclaim it to be.

Yet you still neglect to address the argument of WvW being modeled off RvR. Until that is rebutted I will still claim that RvR comparisons trump those of any other game in terms of what will be successful and improve WvW as a whole.

Adaneshade.2409:

The difference is GW2 is using physics computations in particle effects which DAoC did not. There is quite a bit more being computed in a GW2 30v30 than a DAOC 200v200. Just give the hardware time to catch up.

But its not, their servers are not doing particle effects, your client is doing it. I have a very high end machine and still cannot see half of the enemies. It’s not my computer, its their inability to handle their own engine or netcode. One of the two is ins’t working properly or its some combination of both that’s making it junk.

I’m still wondering (I wonder if sniffing the stream is considered hacking)if they are using tcp packets instead of udp and its creating a ton of over head.

waeren.9743:

tarnin.1690:

Adaneshade.2409:

fefner.5729:

Well we are not exactly talking about “many”.
DAoC subscription numbers weren’t exactly huge but the players just seem to be pretty vocal.

This is true but in Daoc we didn’t need to queue to get in to the “End Game”, they had servers and the technology for everyone to RvR with no lag, no invisible players, small groups could take on large groups by good team work and a system which made you keep playing through their Realm Rank system. GW2 supports zerging and it’s the zerging which made ppl quit many mmo’s with similar open pvp content.

This is where I’ll have to disagree with DAoC being the “Messiah” of PvP MMOs. Early DAoC RvR was just as, if not MORE laggy than WvW and just as zergy (Anyone else remember zergs having to take off cloaks so ppl wouldn’t crash?). It took quite a while for hardware to catch up. I expect the same thing to happen in GW2 over time.

This was only during relic raids. Yes, i too remember having to look at the ground, take my cloak off, and /stick and hope it made it to the keep. Outside of that massive force though (200+ people in one area going to fight antoher 200+ defending) the lag was almost non-existent. In this game a group of say 30 vs 30 , and most of the toons dont even load… its 2012 why is this kinda crap happening? Hell, I could even see the color and different armor types of the enemy! Not here. That game tracked all the same stuff this one does PLUS more and this was 12 years ago.

Also, once they went from flat file into to an actual database, that cured a ton of their lag issues (yup, original daoc digged info from flat files ala MUDs.)

Well we expect more from a game as well. All these extra polygons,shaders, textures, … are quite a bit more taxing.

Also without subscriptions I’m guessing they have to be a bit more careful with server/bandwidth costs.

Wish that culling issue didn’t exist though -_-;

Yeah kind of hate that they implemented that. The culling is on purpose >.< I can only hope they will be able to upgrade server to the point that they can remove that code sooner rather than later.

tarnin.1690:

Adaneshade.2409:

The difference is GW2 is using physics computations in particle effects which DAoC did not. There is quite a bit more being computed in a GW2 30v30 than a DAOC 200v200. Just give the hardware time to catch up.

But its not, their servers are not doing particle effects, your client is doing it. I have a very high end machine and still cannot see half of the enemies. It’s not my computer, its their inability to handle their own engine or netcode. One of the two is ins’t working properly or its some combination of both that’s making it junk.

I’m still wondering (I wonder if sniffing the stream is considered hacking)if they are using tcp packets instead of udp and its creating a ton of over head.

Yes client do “render” but the server still has to track locations of all of that to send the information to all the other clients seeing the arcing Treb shot or what have you. Vs moving targets, that’s white a bit of data being manipulated. Since shots have to be calculated in trajectory to hit whatever.
To my knowledge this has never been done before. Previously you fired “at” a target here you can just fire in a direction and hit anything that happens to stray in the way during that travel time.

Griefing is already happening. If you see the report video’s of the hackers they use the same method to get your account info to whisper you cross server. Having visible character names in no way reduces the amount of effort it takes to whisper you cross server. As for a means to identify and kill a person over an over, it is just as easily done based on appearance.

Adaneshade.2409:

tarnin.1690:

Adaneshade.2409:

The difference is GW2 is using physics computations in particle effects which DAoC did not. There is quite a bit more being computed in a GW2 30v30 than a DAOC 200v200. Just give the hardware time to catch up.

But its not, their servers are not doing particle effects, your client is doing it. I have a very high end machine and still cannot see half of the enemies. It’s not my computer, its their inability to handle their own engine or netcode. One of the two is ins’t working properly or its some combination of both that’s making it junk.

I’m still wondering (I wonder if sniffing the stream is considered hacking)if they are using tcp packets instead of udp and its creating a ton of over head.

Yes client do “render” but the server still has to track locations of all of that to send the information to all the other clients seeing the arcing Treb shot or what have you. Vs moving targets, that’s white a bit of data being manipulated. Since shots have to be calculated in trajectory to hit whatever.
To my knowledge this has never been done before. Previously you fired “at” a target here you can just fire in a direction and hit anything that happens to stray in the way during that travel time.

it’s just data though, DAoC had all that in NF. Like I stated before, something is going on. Either they are sending/receiving too much information or sending/receiving it wrong. The only thing I can think of is its loading info for the entire zone of what people are doing to every person in the zone. Other than that, I have no idea as there is 0 reason for culling in a game in this year.

Adaneshade.2409:

waeren.9743:

tarnin.1690:

Dware.4259:

waeren.9743:

Well we are not exactly talking about “many”. DAoC subscription numbers weren’t exactly huge but the players just seem to be pretty vocal.

Actually DAOC’s 250k was huge back in the day.

Different era before wow.

Exactly. Every post he brings up the “low” sub numbers. It was a gen2 mmo and those numbers were massive. WoW changed it all by dumbing the game down and making it where my mom could successfully play. DAoC was the FIRST with a 3 way open pvp war where you had “forced” allies. Instead of a FFA style, it was team based. It evolved over about 6 years then settled into what it is now. It WAS revolutionary and held peoples attention for a long time. This game needs to take the good parts of RvR and intergrate them or the game will die out. Look at WAR which was wow/daokittene. Hows that doing?

Well it wasn’t many, I’m not saying it was low.

About the numbers that UO had, about half of EQ had, less then l2, less then half of FFXI, less then swg, 1/10th of lineage subs. So yes I guess those numbers are ok but I wouldn’t call them huge.

If we would be using logic the this game should be a wow clone since it has lost less population percentage wise then DAoC?

It’s nice that you liked DAoC and yes some great suggestions have been made by DAoC people. But please DAoC is not this god game you proclaim it to be.

Yet you still neglect to address the argument of WvW being modeled off RvR. Until that is rebutted I will still claim that RvR comparisons trump those of any other game in terms of what will be successful and improve WvW as a whole.

Well yes wvw is modeled after rvr, afaik that’s a known fact.
And quite a bit of the other mechanics have been modeled after other games.

My point is just that these “hardcore” daoc rvrers are a pretty vocal bunch but not as numerous as those forums would have you think. You guys do bring up valid points and suggestions. But please this is NOT DAoC2 and you’re not really adding “strength” by mentioning you played some game that gave some inspiration.

So why do you feel like its worth bringing up? Really curious about this.

FYI I’m currently playing with a guild that started in DAoC.

waeren.9743:

Also without subscriptions I’m guessing they have to be a bit more careful with server/bandwidth costs.

And unfortunate downfall of not having a subscriptions. There is no incentive on Anet part to beef up the infrastructure or maintain the player base. All the money is made getting you to buy the game, once that’s done its actually better for them if people not play ( till the next paid expansion).

Scyatic.7604:

waeren.9743:

Also without subscriptions I’m guessing they have to be a bit more careful with server/bandwidth costs.

And unfortunate downfall of not having a subscriptions. There is no incentive on Anet part to beef up the infrastructure or maintain the player base. All the money is made getting you to buy the game, once that’s done its actually better for them if people not play ( till the next paid expansion).

Unfortunately, speaking as far as profit margin goes, this is totally correct. As long as the keep their promise of no “pay to win” items in store, the gem store simply won’t bring in the monthly income that a sub would from the average player at least those in WvW.

I would like to see titles and kill spam. It personalizes the game and adds a bit of excitement when you kill a well known name. Right now people seem to go after the players with the star in the name, it’s the same concept just not as good as titles or player names. Also downed state is horrible the bag should drop when they die not when spiked. As a ranger I can honestly say there is a serious imbalance when it comes to downed state skills. This is a great game and I hope they continue to improve it.

waeren.9743:

Well we are not exactly talking about “many”. DAoC subscription numbers weren’t exactly huge but the players just seem to be pretty vocal.

DaoC had alot of suck as well (Toa, waaay too much pve), Warhammer was better and worse in many ways.

Gw2 has alot going for it, with some tweaks it could be great. right now I am seeing players that normally play alot, playing other games already.

Not asking for the world, some small tweaks would go along ways.

Further out I would love to see scenarios/instanced pvp we can take our wvw characters into capture the flag, something like Nordenwatch, Battle for Praag or even AV.

I believe the devs mentioned they might do this, that would be great for times when wvw is slow for whatever reason.

Friday night is fun still, I do like the rush of fighting. Looks like my server is going to crush this week, :/ I like being the under dog more

OP sounds liek a personal problem. my guild has lots of fun fighting zergs with low numbers even when they have all 3 orbs.

ofc surprise surpise this isn’t a mythic game so you can’t just rely on the same mythic game tactics that don’t work anywhere else.

other daoc and warhammer vets have no problem adapting to new games, but for a vocal minority, the only answer seems to be to campaign devs to turn every single new game in to daoc 2.0.

i call this cliche daoc syndrome.

borils pass getting farmed hardcore, you guys dont even come out or compete at any level.

I wish you guys played as good as your talk, now that would be fun. Look up more its likely a bored player downing you, roflmao