Guild Wars 2

The Edge of the Mists is upon us. While it’s a great addition to WvW and overall to the game as a whole new area is being added, it buggles me how it is involved in Living Story at all? It’s practically WvW update, which in a way would be considered as a Feature Update rather than Living Story. With promised 4 living story patches to wrap up the whole story, I can’t feel but being a little cheated out of the story part. Understandable that the deeper details regarding any kind of lore and how EotM fits into it all have been left out makes me wonder if it was on purpose to surprise the players, or was it because there is none.
As Anet took a break to “polish” the last 4 patches of the Living Story, it’s kind of a downer in a way that one of those polishes was a content that’s already existed in testing phases for months now…
Regardless, I’m not saying EotM is a bad thing, but I would see it more of a add-on to the actual Living Story patch.

I though it was quite clear that Edge of the Mists will be invaded by the Aetherblades and thus give us a rather clear view that it is very much tied into the Living Story.

We know Scarlet have been looking towards the Mists, and now we will see why.
It is extremely unlikely that this have not been planned since they announced Edge of the Mists.

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

In that case I’m definitely looking forward to it even more than before.

hopefully, players can kill other players while completing this version of LS. It would be a completely new dynamic to the game and I think worth trying.

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

In other words: usual Scarlet nonsense.

style.6173:

hopefully, players can kill other players while completing this version of LS. It would be a completely new dynamic to the game and I think worth trying.

Welcome to the living story, grievers welcome edition.

Tommyknocker.6089:

style.6173:

hopefully, players can kill other players while completing this version of LS. It would be a completely new dynamic to the game and I think worth trying.

Welcome to the living story, grievers welcome edition.

We will find out, but hopefully we get instanced and there’s no PvP on that.
That would tweak the griefers and it is fine by me.

I doubt the feedback won’t be a good one.
So far you received never any good feedback whenever you tried to lure PvErs into WvW with a bunch of Achievements and a tiny Story tidbits .

It always resulted only in a big ****storm that was basically guaranteed to happen due to all of the WvW Elitists getting annoyed by us PvEers/Achievement Hunters and vice versa.

Forcing two different kinds of players to play together, which like each other like the pestilence, is absolutely no good thing.
WvW players also do get massively annoyed by Living Story Mechanics in WvW, especially when they are just simply holding you up, like the last time when the nightmare LS was active and everywhere at the mercenary camps permanently poppped up those silly plants with their permanent hallucinations.

Such stuff doesn’t belong into WvW in the sight of really alot of players.
WvW’ers want to see, that this gameplay mode gets mechanically improved and not that it gets bloated up with content, that has nothing to do with WvW at all and is just put only there to revitalize the WvW community and to bring maybe new players to WvW by hoding them their mach wanted Achievement Carrot in front of their noses lurign them that way into WvW, exactly knowing, that there would be no other way than this one to bring more people into WvW, other then to somehow “force” PvE’ers and especially the Achievement Hunters into that Game Mode, if they want to stay compettitive in the Leaderboards and also don’t want to miss out the Meta Achievements.

I personally would much more prefer it to see that WvW gets in future improved with meaningful content, that fits to this Game Moder, other then always tryingto lure temporarely PvEers with Achievements and Story into the WvW Battlefields, where both sides will always just meet on each other only with hatred, wrath and intolerance from begin to the end of the patch’s content, so long until its over and everybody is happy, that new content is there so that the WvW’ers have their peace from the PvE’ers and the PvE’ers being happy, that the new content’t doesn’t force them to do literally PvP

You should have seen the reactions of Players within WvW Season 1, never seen before bigger ****storms and rants over each other in WvW before that, when there were those new WvW Achievements for that period of those 7 weeks and WvW good flooded by PvE’ers, that WvW was nearly permanent full at specific times and alot of players, especially WvWers had no chance to get into the Maps anymore (which is the reason why EotM comes now)

Before you continue to waste your time and energy (in my opinion) in future more with putting PvE Content into WvW, I personally would much more likely love to see that tiome and energy getting used for fundamental WvW improvements within 1 or 2 WvW special Patchs, that are for nothign else made, than to improve just only WvW.
Focused Updates are something, which are needed sometimes, instead of slow tiny steps that let you beleive, the Gameplay of that Mode gets improved as fast as a slug moving.

I’d love to see all of the current WvW Skills getting merged more and improved, so that all of them have 10 Tiers of Skills as also some new Skill Lines that improve WvW to give us a much better impression of playing a real war between “worlds” with much better improved class roles for WvW.

Thats why I think something like class spcific WvW Skill Lines are absolutely a must to strengthen the roles of each class for WvW.

The Commander System needs fundamental improvements for WvW.
Mercenary Camps need to become much more important and should be something that should exist in all WvW Maps and not just only in the Eternal Battle Fields.

Keeps, Supply Camps, Towers ect. need more Tiers to improve them and to build them up into higher tiers of basements, like turning a Keep into a Fortress, like turning a Tower into an Outpost, like turning a Supply Camp into a Sanitary Center ect.
That are fundamental mechanics and gameplay features, that WvW needs, not temporal PvE Content, that just annoys most of the players, cause its only there to hold either people up, or is something obsolete, like the current thumpers, that are for nothing good in WvW at all if you destroy them and even don’t give any WvW Exp, if you destroy them, so just destroying them, is a waste of time …

WvW could be also improve more, with adding more new Traps to the trap Vendor, or improve WvW with new Siege Weapons, or new Siege Weapon Skins to unlock for your account ..

Thats the real stuff, that peopole want to see for WvW and not, how some random electric pillars are placed all over the wvw maps with some annoying enemies defending them or such things, that interests no single WvW Player.

Atlas.9704:

Tommyknocker.6089:

style.6173:

hopefully, players can kill other players while completing this version of LS. It would be a completely new dynamic to the game and I think worth trying.

Welcome to the living story, grievers welcome edition.

We will find out, but hopefully we get instanced and there’s no PvP on that.
That would tweak the griefers and it is fine by me.

I’d be fine with a little of both worlds. Have the PvErs going into the Edge to get some achievements and begin the story, and a story instance to tie the pieces together and prepare for the inevitable attack.

Yeah…this was in no way supposed to be living story content…it’s WvW, not living story.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-edge-of-the-mists-a-new-map-is-coming-to-wvw/

They don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

Using the Living Story to explain why we suddenly have a new map (which seems to be the case) is actually a rather good thing.

lordkrall.7241:

They don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

Using the Living Story to explain why we suddenly have a new map (which seems to be the case) is actually a rather good thing.

Pretty much, that is a good use for the living story to add something that will stay in the game, and opens paths to many game changes/mechanics.

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

Bobby, I am excited for both the new map and to see how the story integrates with it.

With that said, your above quote makes it sound like you are writing the story to fit with already defined content (ie. content defines story). IMO, in order to write a good story, the story needs to come first. In other words, the story should define the content.

Of course, if what I said is correct, I am probably just preaching to the choir on this one.

Orpheal.8263:

I doubt the feedback won’t be a good one.
So far you received never any good feedback whenever you tried to lure PvErs into WvW with a bunch of Achievements and a tiny Story tidbits .

It always resulted only in a big ****storm that was basically guaranteed to happen due to all of the WvW Elitists getting annoyed by us PvEers/Achievement Hunters and vice versa.

To be honest, this forum will react negatively to whatever Anet does with GW2. Consider the post that started this thread. The poster claims to feel cheated by an update that a) is free, b.) hasn’t been released yet, and c) we have very little information about. It seems there is nothing that Anet can do, short of specifically designing an update for him, that would make him happy.

ThunderBadger.3049:

Yeah…this was in no way supposed to be living story content…it’s WvW, not living story.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-edge-of-the-mists-a-new-map-is-coming-to-wvw/

It’s a good bet than when you bring in a bunch of PvE’rs that some of them will stick around and increase the WvW population. The last thing anyone wants is for the WvW population to be become stagnant. This will lead to it’s death. Putting up with PvE’rs for 2 weeks is going to hurt anyone and in the long term will help WvW.

style.6173:

hopefully, players can kill other players while completing this version of LS. It would be a completely new dynamic to the game and I think worth trying.

I hope not, the masses not knowing how to follow simple instructions kills me enough :p

style.6173:

hopefully, players can kill other players while completing this version of LS. It would be a completely new dynamic to the game and I think worth trying.

You mean, like being a PvP server in WoW?

ThunderBadger.3049:

Yeah…this was in no way supposed to be living story content…it’s WvW, not living story.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-edge-of-the-mists-a-new-map-is-coming-to-wvw/

Just dont post that on reddit, LOL.

lordkrall.7241:

I though it was quite clear that Edge of the Mists will be invaded by the Aetherblades and thus give us a rather clear view that it is very much tied into the Living Story.

We know Scarlet have been looking towards the Mists, and now we will see why.
It is extremely unlikely that this have not been planned since they announced Edge of the Mists.

Here’s the contents of the link announcing Edge of the Mists. There are no references to Living Story at all, so I don’t see how anyone can deduce it is likely they had it planned all along.

Also….why? There’s was nothing but negative feedback when Scarlet and the Toxic Alliance showed up in the Living World last time. At the time, I personally thought it might work out simply as a way to add a new twist and something else to enter into logistical calculations and tactics, but since they could be easily avoided by small and large zergs alike, that didn’t really happen. All their addition did was ruin current WvW content when the toxic NPCs were placed right on top of mercenary camps in all the maps.

Edge of the Mists was supposed to be a quality of life improvement for WvW. It’s intent is clearly stated below. I was looking forward to it as a way to get back into WvW after Season 1 burned me out. It’s disappointing to see such a promised improvement is being combined with LS content that has been…less than well received by many.

It also might be in the devs best interest to take a look at the map chats in Lornar’s Pass during and after the Marionette event as a preview to how a large quantity of players participating in LS content that requires tactics and coordination…does not bring out the best in everyone.

Greetings, folks! I’m here to announce an exciting new development in World vs. World!

We are in the process of designing a brand-new map that will let you enjoy WvW while waiting to enter the existing Borderlands and Eternal Battleground maps. This new map, the Edge of the Mists, will be able to accomodate as many people as want to play in it at any given time. Unlike the existing WvW maps, once a version of the Edge of the Mists fills up, another will be created so that anyone who wishes to take part can do so.

While this map will allow you to earn rewards that will help you in WvW, it will not contribute directly to your world’s score. This means worlds with a large population won’t be able to use their size to gain an unfair advantage with this map. This is a place where you’ll be able to test your WvW skills, earn World XP, and experience content at the cutting edge of WvW.

It’s imperative to us that we provide space for as many players as possible before we continue to make improvements to WvW, because every time we make changes and updates, more players get stuck waiting in line. This new map will eliminate that entirely and make it so everyone can experience the grandeur of WvW whenever they wish.

We’ve been looking into tackling the problem of limited space in WvW for some time now, and we have finally reached a point where we can get you, the players, involved in our solution.

We are telling you about this map now, long before we are ready to launch it, because we want your help to make this the best possible experience we can. We will be inviting thousands of people to come play in an public test version of the map to provide us with feedback, stress tests, and to help guide the design and development of the final version of the map. We are looking for guilds that are WvW-focused to provide us with the numbers we need and to provide some of the basic structure we’ll be looking for in these tests.

We’ll be starting off with small testing windows that will become more expansive as we get closer to finalizing the map. To apply for a spot in the test for your guild, please have one representative from your guild fill out this survey.

Testing of the map will go through the beginning of 2014, at a minimum. To be considered for inclusion, your guild needs to have at least one fluent English speaker capable of compiling feedback for us. None of this testing will be under NDA, as we want as many people as possible and we need your input.

We’ll have more details about the map as we continue to develop it and as we start the actual testing. Your involvement in this process will be critical to the final implementation and design of the map. We will be making decisions based on the feedback we get from these tests and that feedback will determine the final version of the map.

We are thrilled to be entering into a new phase of development for WvW where we get large groups of players in to test and provide feedback on large-scale projects before they go live.

We’ll see you on the battlegrounds!

GrayFox.2601:

Here’s the contents of the link announcing Edge of the Mists. There are no references to Living Story at all, so I don’t see how anyone can deduce it is likely they had it planned all along.

Also….why? There’s was nothing but negative feedback when Scarlet and the Toxic Alliance showed up in the Living World last time. At the time, I personally thought it might work out simply as a way to add a new twist and something else to enter into logistical calculations and tactics, but since they could be easily avoided by small and large zergs alike, that didn’t really happen. All their addition did was ruin current WvW content when the toxic NPCs were placed right on top of mercenary camps in all the maps.

Yes, one can of course choose to ignore the reveal for the present content and copy something about different content being talked about months ago, but that doesn’t really make much sense.

This thread is about this specific release, which was released with this specific trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkA0Y_KRcTo which does make it quite clear that there will be Living Story components in the release. In fact the trailer makes the whole Living Story component much larger than the map itself.

Oh? I saw positive feedback as well. But then again, I suppose one sees what one wants to see.

And there is a rather major difference this time around.
Now they are using Scarlet and her minions as a way to explain why we suddenly have a new map to play on. Which quite a few people prefer to just suddenly have a new map playable for no ingame reason whatsoever.

The map will still be there long after the Living Story part is over, and I am quite sure that the Living story components will indeed be removed when it is over. And thus we will get that map, and at the same time possible a couple of new players.

bwillb.2165:

style.6173:

hopefully, players can kill other players while completing this version of LS. It would be a completely new dynamic to the game and I think worth trying.

I hope not, the masses not knowing how to follow simple instructions kills me enough :p

imagine trying to complete marionette style boss while people on the platform are trying to kill each other. It is going to be such a hilarious update.

Fafnir.5124:

bwillb.2165:

style.6173:

hopefully, players can kill other players while completing this version of LS. It would be a completely new dynamic to the game and I think worth trying.

I hope not, the masses not knowing how to follow simple instructions kills me enough :p

imagine trying to complete marionette style boss while people on the platform are trying to kill each other. It is going to be such a hilarious update.

Heh they pretty much already do. People on Borlis Pass love getting the first warden’s back to a wall.

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

you also thought scarlet was a good villain.

lordkrall.7241:

Yes, one can of course choose to ignore the reveal for the present content and copy something about different content being talked about months ago, but that doesn’t really make much sense.

This thread is about this specific release, which was released with this specific trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkA0Y_KRcTo which does make it quite clear that there will be Living Story components in the release. In fact the trailer makes the whole Living Story component much larger than the map itself.

Oh? I saw positive feedback as well. But then again, I suppose one sees what one wants to see.

And there is a rather major difference this time around.
Now they are using Scarlet and her minions as a way to explain why we suddenly have a new map to play on. Which quite a few people prefer to just suddenly have a new map playable for no ingame reason whatsoever.

The map will still be there long after the Living Story part is over, and I am quite sure that the Living story components will indeed be removed when it is over. And thus we will get that map, and at the same time possible a couple of new players.

Different content, you say? The name of the content, Edge of the Mists, appears pretty similar to me. But then again, I guess one can choose to ignore the promised content and post something about completely different (and to some of us, much worse) content that is actually being released, but that doesn’t really make much sense.

This thread is about Edge of the Mists; past, present and future. The fact that the promised content is not the same as the actual release is the entire point of these posts and very relevant to the conversation.

I didn’t see any positive feedback to including the LS in WvW. But then again, I play the game as well as read and post in the forums, so it’s possibly with all the hate of it I was seeing in map chat in the Borderlands and Eternal Battlegrounds, I might have missed some here. Can you reference any posts? Did those posts outnumber the negative ones?

And your belief about it pulling in new players…well, you must have missed how the community reacted to WvW Season 1. It brought in tons of achievement hunters that left as quickly as they came, but not before disillusioning a lot of good WvW players and commanders. The fact that people that only played WvW couldn’t get in without waiting 1-2 hours was only a small part (which was also supposed to be the entire point of Edge of the Mists). Adding a bunch of people not familiar with the mechanics of WvW was kinda of like adding a bunch of teenagers into the ranks of a trained army. Or trying to herd kittens. It DID NOT work out well.

BobbyStein.2315:

gidorah.4960:

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

you also thought scarlet was a good villain.

I also know the entire plot a year in advance.

here, have all my thumbs up.

BobbyStein.2315:

gidorah.4960:

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

you also thought scarlet was a good villain.

I also know the entire plot a year in advance.

I’m torn on that. On the one hand yes Scarlet has slowly become a better villain, and with the release of the latest patch we’ve seen the complaints die out as people have become really involved in speculation and have become excited again – which is great.

On the other hand the complaints did exist and people did not enjoy her for at least a couple of the living story releases, and to dismiss that simply because in the end it will all make sense is a mistake.

Even if you’re keeping a villains motives and actions secret, they should still be enjoyable to the players. Just because you know the ending and it’s good doesn’t mean that the fact that people complained isn’t problematic.

Think of it like a novel. You’ve read the entire thing and it’s great so you like it! And that’s great, and you’re telling everyone else it’s great! But they’re in the middle of the novel and so far haven’t found it all that compelling and are considering skipping to the end because honestly they’ve had enough and can’t be bothered riding the story through. Is that easy enough to understand? The middle of the novel should be just as compelling as the end – the beginning possibly more so.

Please keep in mind that the above is coming from someone who doesn’t really have a problem with Scarlet and has, from the beginning, been willing to wait it out and see where it goes. I’m just trying to point out that the outcry of a portion of the community definitely highlights areas that need to be worked on in the future.

BobbyStein.2315:

gidorah.4960:

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

you also thought scarlet was a good villain.

I also know the entire plot a year in advance.

And you didn’t fix it? Shame on you. ^^

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

I wish that the releases would be more about the story, rather then forcing the story too be integrated in the release. For example the edge of the mists is a cool thing too add too the game. But now Scarlet must have something too do with it because of the story. I’d rather see that there was a big story written and that every update is like a episode of the story. In stead of standalone releases that are forced too make sense story wise.

I now get the feeling that different teams are working on different releases and that the big story behind it isn’t written yet. There are so many loose ends every time after a release that are not getting answered.

I hope that the next story arc will be planned out in advance what the start and the end of the story will be and every update puts an other piece in the puzzle too solve the mystery about it. So you can get excited about the next update too get some more answers just like a great television series can do. Rather then making updates and then later try too make sense too it story-wise.

tldr: Make updates about the story instead of story about the updates.

Really, one year of disappointing story telling and we get told to wait to the very end to see that the boring story had a reason to be boring?
Now we have three updates left, and honestly, if you play “The Sixth Sense” with us, let me tell you: This won’t work in a video game with the very little story streched over a whole year+.

The LS is bad, even a fulminant ending won’t save that this 90 minute movie was boring 85 straight.

Good luck with your next story though…

FlamingFoxx.1305:

BobbyStein.2315:

gidorah.4960:

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

you also thought scarlet was a good villain.

I also know the entire plot a year in advance.

I’m torn on that. On the one hand yes Scarlet has slowly become a better villain, and with the release of the latest patch we’ve seen the complaints die out as people have become really involved in speculation and have become excited again – which is great.

On the other hand the complaints did exist and people did not enjoy her for at least a couple of the living story releases, and to dismiss that simply because in the end it will all make sense is a mistake.

Even if you’re keeping a villains motives and actions secret, they should still be enjoyable to the players. Just because you know the ending and it’s good doesn’t mean that the fact that people complained isn’t problematic.

Think of it like a novel. You’ve read the entire thing and it’s great so you like it! And that’s great, and you’re telling everyone else it’s great! But they’re in the middle of the novel and so far haven’t found it all that compelling and are considering skipping to the end because honestly they’ve had enough and can’t be bothered riding the story through. Is that easy enough to understand? The middle of the novel should be just as compelling as the end – the beginning possibly more so.

Please keep in mind that the above is coming from someone who doesn’t really have a problem with Scarlet and has, from the beginning, been willing to wait it out and see where it goes. I’m just trying to point out that the outcry of a portion of the community definitely highlights areas that need to be worked on in the future.

Well said and I completely agree. I have actually had this happen before. I’ll read through a book series, think it’s great, recommend it and the person I recommend it to can’t get through the first book because the author was still in the early stages of their writing style. It doesn’t matter if everything turns out to be amazing and well thought out in the end if people are turned off by the introduction. You only have one chance to make a first impression and that first impression has haunted the Living Story through all it’s releases. People that might enjoy the current and future content aren’t even bothering to give it a chance or, for some, even play it, all because of the quality and lack of information in it’s first few chapters.

BobbyStein.2315:

gidorah.4960:

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

you also thought scarlet was a good villain.

I also know the entire plot a year in advance.

so, your a Time Traveler!?!

…too bad we can’t ask what happens. Knowing the future would cause Tyria to implode in on itself in a spectacular explosion and turn Char into vegans, Asura into morons, and Humans into atheists!

FlamingFoxx.1305:

BobbyStein.2315:

gidorah.4960:

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

you also thought scarlet was a good villain.

I also know the entire plot a year in advance.

I’m torn on that. On the one hand yes Scarlet has slowly become a better villain, and with the release of the latest patch we’ve seen the complaints die out as people have become really involved in speculation and have become excited again – which is great.

On the other hand the complaints did exist and people did not enjoy her for at least a couple of the living story releases, and to dismiss that simply because in the end it will all make sense is a mistake.

Even if you’re keeping a villains motives and actions secret, they should still be enjoyable to the players. Just because you know the ending and it’s good doesn’t mean that the fact that people complained isn’t problematic.

Think of it like a novel. You’ve read the entire thing and it’s great so you like it! And that’s great, and you’re telling everyone else it’s great! But they’re in the middle of the novel and so far haven’t found it all that compelling and are considering skipping to the end because honestly they’ve had enough and can’t be bothered riding the story through. Is that easy enough to understand? The middle of the novel should be just as compelling as the end – the beginning possibly more so.

Please keep in mind that the above is coming from someone who doesn’t really have a problem with Scarlet and has, from the beginning, been willing to wait it out and see where it goes. I’m just trying to point out that the outcry of a portion of the community definitely highlights areas that need to be worked on in the future.

Writer here, though not for Arenanet. I write novels.

I think part of the problem is that they have approached it much like you would approach a novel.
Revealing the antagonist’s motivations/backstory/detailed plan is classically put in the final 3rd of a novel. The other 2/3rds are usually carried by the protagonist and their struggles.
If you look back on it, they did try to do that by introducing new NPC hero characters, but the problem is that the GW2 players simply didn’t see it that way. Most players consider their player character the protagonist of the story, and they already know everything there is to know about their character.
Hence, players looked in the direction of the villain instead, and found it a frustrating experience at best. Unlike the NPC characters, the player character has never been personally harmed by Scarlet, and thus has no motivation to go after her and find things out about her other than what the content is pointing them to. There also is a lack of player agency in this, since players have proven to be more driven to find these connecting threads than the dev team orginally estimated.

Lessons learned here should be that writing for an MMO is completely different from how you’d approach a traditional novel.

Was edge of the mists even planned when the full Living story was planned?
I thought Edge of the mists was made to fix the queue system that everyone was complaining about during the start of Season 1.
That was after The living story started.

This makes it seem like Scarlet was added as an afterthought. Something wasn’t originally planned.

If the first few episodes of a TV series are bad but later episodes get better you can say that the series is good now, but it won’t make the first few episodes retroactively suck less. :p

Or if you want another analogy, the journey is often just as important as the destination.

BobbyStein.2315:

gidorah.4960:

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

you also thought scarlet was a good villain.

I also know the entire plot a year in advance.

Think about it this way…you know the ending.

So if this was a book (story) most readers would have put it back onto the shelf before reaching the end (which you seem to be hinting is good)

The story has to be good, not just some pieces, or just the ending, because you need to keep the reader / player intrigued and wanting to know what happens. Scarlet makes it really hard to CARE what she is doing…

BobbyStein.2315:

gidorah.4960:

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

you also thought scarlet was a good villain.

I also know the entire plot a year in advance.

I don’t understand why knowing why a character is annoying makes them not annoying. I feel like Anet thinks we’re just not sophisticated enough when we get the “wait till the end” excuse. Like we “just don’t get it”.

Han Solo is a fantastic character that has ZERO BACKGROUND & simple motivations. Having detailed background lore doesn’t make a character good. & I’m certainly not enamored by the mystery because I know the culmination of all the “hidden” story is this giddy phoney cartoon villain that sodomizes lord Farren but is hyper intelligent. I honestly don’t care why she can get into the mysts because having such a dumb character(not backstory) there just taints the whole thing.

I can’t think of 1 character in literature of film that is annoying, overpowered, out-of-place & lore-bending, but is totally redeemed by 2% of their story. It just doesn’t happen. So far every bit of background we’ve gotten from her hasn’t change how annoying of a character she is. & to be honest the more we know the less reason I see for her to:

1) Act so stupid & cliche. Her dumb dialog & cheesy threats are completely unnecessary I feel like someone was trying to be cute & “zany” but failing miserably. She’s not threatening or cool. she’s freaking annoying.

2) Be so proficient at everything. She could have easily been a woman who knows how to convince certain people to do certain things. I would have rather seen a story of her slowly building political influence to woo factions into doing things for her. There was no need to make her master & commander of all physics. It feel like the only reason this was done was to make some kind of weird point or some kind of personal gratification. It certainly doesn’t make her believable & it marginalizes past villains.
Even Abbadon A GOD(which have all been emasculated into marginal demi-gods that are weaker than dragons) used subtle mind-games & manipulation to make Shiro do what he needed to. That showed restraint, sophistication & class. With Scarlet is like blunt-force trauma of “SHE IS AWESOME! BELIEVE IT!”

I don’t think “knowing the end” is gonna fix all these massive problems.

BobbyStein.2315:

gidorah.4960:

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

you also thought scarlet was a good villain.

I also know the entire plot a year in advance.

If you have to know the entire Plot to see Scarlet as a good Villain, then there was something wrong.

I know you want to keep things about her a secret to make her interesting, but most of the time you din’t gave us anything about her. No hints about her motivation, no real action against her only reaction. ( Srsly Tyria spent the time waiting for Scarlets next step ) except from one Update, the Twilight Assault which added a beautiful dungeon but was a slap in the face for everyone who wanted to know more about her. The delivery of her character was really bad last year. It was so bad that there was much hate here. In Every new Living Story there was at least one thread with someone asking for her to be retconned.

With the OoM Update you did a better job at delivering her Character. We gained a small insight into her madness, not too much but enough so we can speculato on her. These small hints and info drops should have appeared a few months ago. Like doing detective work to find such infos after the Queens Jubilee and getting more and more infos over the course of the season instead of just at the end, but I’m glad that finally you are giving hints and other stuff to make her interesting.

I hope that you can make her a good villian, even with all of the mistakes with Scarlet, and give us a really good villain at season two of the Living Story.

The Aetherblade ship was present throughout the beta test. There were also Aetherblade pirates in the center of the map throughout the test. They weren’t just added as an afterthought a week or so ago.

Also, the assumption that the Edge of the Mists is little more than a place to hang out while queuing for WvW is wrong. It is a viable WvW-style playable area, that like PvE environments can spawn additional overflow instances as required.

It is a very cool map on its own, with plenty of interesting game play mechanics. It is entirely likely that it may well provide a bridge to WvW-style content for the more PvE-oriented players.

Having played quite a bit of the beta test, even though I am probably a casual WvW player and certainly tend more towards PvE, I really enjoyed the variety of content, combat opportunities, and the layout of the map.

Rather than moaning before you have even been there, since there is little that will do to change things, I suggest that you play it when it arrives and give it a chance. It was a huge chunk of work and provides a place for ArenaNet to test ideas that will eventually make their way back into WvW.

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

Mate, I hope you also have a antiflame-lined Golem suit to jump into as well. Just in case.

It also bothers me that Edge of the Mists has become part of the living story. They told us that the Edge of the Mists map was made to address certain WvW needs. Attaching some kind of story on how this place was discovered is nice and helps immersion.

The Living Story seems to be this long planned out story we are seeing played out, something with a thought out ending they are working towards.

Now it feels like LS was tacked on to the Edge of the Mists in a later stage, and it concerns me that it might show. It makes me wonder if it has replaced a PvE LS update with this WvW one, just so to get more people to try out that map and game mode.

ArenaNet is justified to what ever they deem necessary though, and this might be the best update we have ever gotten. Maybe what they had planned initially sucked, and where able to replace it for this. EotM could have been in dev stages when they where brainstorming on the Finale of LS and where inspired to include it.

In the end it leaves me with a warning sign in the back of my head, that this might have been forced on the writers and the LS part won’t be all it could have been.

BobbyStein.2315:

Naetell.3815:

Lessons learned here should be that writing for an MMO is completely different from how you’d approach a traditional novel.

This is definitely true. We also have to deal with the fact that simply writing something doesn’t guarantee that it will be implemented in a way that represents the original vision (if it’s even implemented). We learned a lot over the past year. I hope you all will see the difference in the next few releases. I look forward to hearing your comments late next week.

If I may be so forward as to ask that one day there needs to be some Anet retrospective on Scarlet.

An article of sorts to show what was envisioned for her versus what came out of it.
Things like that are really interesting.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

BobbyStein.2315:

gidorah.4960:

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

you also thought scarlet was a good villain.

I also know the entire plot a year in advance.

And you didn’t fix it? Shame on you. ^^

Of course he fixed it, it used to be much worse.

Though seriously, not all writers can see their work isn’t possibly the bestest idae evar after spending a year on it. That’s why you hand it to someone who hates you to give you totally accurate feedback.

BobbyStein.2315:

gidorah.4960:

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

you also thought scarlet was a good villain.

I also know the entire plot a year in advance.

Not to sound rude, but we are quite literally three updates away from being done with Season 1, and (thankfully) the Scarlet story arc.

I a highly suspect, and doubtful, that within these three updates there will be any major changes to Scarlet’s character and any major reveals to her plot that will make her a “Good” villain.

Sorry, but you’ve had a year’s worth of time to make this character interesting to the palyer base. You can call me biased as well to absolutely disliking this entire fiasco that has been a living story, but even if I wasn’t, I have a hard time believing at all that these last three parts are going to make Scarlet a likeable, good, and well written villain.

I’ll paraphrase another website’s description of Scarlet, and again I mean no offense by it, but it is something you should take to heart the next time you design a villain:

She is very much, or very similar to, the brain child of a first time role player who wants to make a character that can do everything ever, in a desperate attempt to make that character interesting, and in doing so, had instead made a mary-sue character that is not interesting at all, but in fact a poorly made, two dimensional character with no depth to them.

Naetell.3815:

Hence, players looked in the direction of the villain instead, and found it a frustrating experience at best. Unlike the NPC characters, the player character has never been personally harmed by Scarlet, and thus has no motivation to go after her and find things out about her other than what the content is pointing them to. There also is a lack of player agency in this, since players have proven to be more driven to find these connecting threads than the dev team orginally estimated.

Ehh.. while I agree with your assessment of how novels are written & some of the faux pas of the LS, I totally disagree this really has much to do with how annoying & dumb Scarlet is. I mean it barely enters into what the dialog, tone, attitude & abilities of the character are.. all of which are awful. General Morgan has even less focus & reveal in NF then Scarlet has in the LS & yet he is lightyears beyond Scarlet as an interesting & believable character. No, I don’t buy that the problems with Scarlet have anything to do with the LS format & how exactly the player plays into the story. that really mostly effects what you think of your own character.

She is very much, or very similar to, the brain child of a first time role player who wants to make a character that can do everything ever, in a desperate attempt to make that character interesting, and in doing so, had instead made a mary-sue character that is not interesting at all, but in fact a poorly made, two dimensional character with no depth to them.

This is exactly how I felt about the character before I even knew what a Mary Sue was.

BobbyStein.2315:

gidorah.4960:

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

you also thought scarlet was a good villain.

I also know the entire plot a year in advance.

Bobby, just because an awesome story can be ruined with the ending (I’m looking at you, very first version of Mass Effect 3), doesn’t mean that an awful one can be saved by an awesome ending. Apropos “awesome ending;” judgment withheld until evidence is procured, but let’s just say I’m not… hopeful. At all.

BobbyStein.2315:

Naetell.3815:

Lessons learned here should be that writing for an MMO is completely different from how you’d approach a traditional novel.

This is definitely true. We also have to deal with the fact that simply writing something doesn’t guarantee that it will be implemented in a way that represents the original vision (if it’s even implemented). We learned a lot over the past year. I hope you all will see the difference in the next few releases. I look forward to hearing your comments late next week.

Might I direct you to Star Wars: The Old Republic, then? Quite a few lessons could be learned there about how to weave an intriguing, unique, and truly personal story that intertwines and intersects with those of the other classes (races, in GW2’s case), creating an overall story that is gripping in both scope and implementation.

GrayFox.2601:

lordkrall.7241:

I though it was quite clear that Edge of the Mists will be invaded by the Aetherblades and thus give us a rather clear view that it is very much tied into the Living Story.

We know Scarlet have been looking towards the Mists, and now we will see why.
It is extremely unlikely that this have not been planned since they announced Edge of the Mists.

Here’s the contents of the link announcing Edge of the Mists. There are no references to Living Story at all, so I don’t see how anyone can deduce it is likely they had it planned all along.

Edge of the Mists was supposed to be a quality of life improvement for WvW. It’s intent is clearly stated below. I was looking forward to it as a way to get back into WvW after Season 1 burned me out. It’s disappointing to see such a promised improvement is being combined with LS content that has been…less than well received by many.

It also might be in the devs best interest to take a look at the map chats in Lornar’s Pass during and after the Marionette event as a preview to how a large quantity of players participating in LS content that requires tactics and coordination…does not bring out the best in everyone.

Yes, in your example, there is no clear statement depicting the involvement of Scarlet or her Aetherblade Pirates. However, there was also a promotional video and if I recall correctly, a live stream, that displayed the Aetherblade pirates, an Aetherblade checkpoint boss, and their various camps on the map. These came out around the same time as your quote, but if you want to play ignorant to all subject matter but your own, that’s fine by me.

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

So far that has kinda been the theme about every post on Scarlet. Kinda thought being that biased was a bad thing really. Not really trying to be mean but just how I feel about it. I kinda think you guys are so involved in your story that you’ve put a pretty hefty set of blinders on about how people really feel about it and how good it actually is in it’s current setup.

I mean there are quite a few side stories you guys have written for dynamic events, smaller characters, races, just little things in general. Such as the story that didn’t make it in about the Kodan and the Skritt who wanted to understand them but when the others left he became dumb again. So the poor Skritt was denied happiness and it was short and quite touching. Just like so many other smaller stories you guys have written.

It really seems when it comes to smaller segment stories you guys shine like mad and one can really feel what you wanted to do and feel for the characters in general. The old less is more bit I suppose. Point is I applaud much of your other smaller work throughout the game and enjoy it greatly. However your living story work with Scarlet just makes me want to stop playing the game or give up any interest in your story telling at all because it is just a mess to me. It feels like you just write what you want regardless of if it even makes sense to the world in which you have created. Much like what the WoW lore has been doing for years and why that lore has become so terrible and of fanfiction quality level. When before it was something you cared about and it’s outcome.

I really wish you’d stop trying to make us like something that feels like it was written by a single person with only them in mind and instead get back into the story telling that well to borrow a meme for a moment. Hits me in the feels like the Skritt and the Kodan bit that didn’t even make it in. A story that feels like it was written for everyone and one that someone besides the writer feels that it was made with lots of love and care.

KorKor.9452:

BobbyStein.2315:

You’ll have to wait and see how we integrated story into the release. I think it works pretty well but I’m biased. I am looking forward to the feedback we receive next week.

So far that has kinda been the theme about every post on Scarlet. Kinda thought being that biased was a bad thing really.

It is. Twice the room needed for toilets in the bathroom.

Now seriously? If they can do anything to salvage Scarlet from being doomed to be as much of a joke as Firiona Vie or Lanys T’Vyl I’ll be so very very happy.