Guild Wars 2

Someone suggested that I post this here—partially because I’m interested in Anet’s answer to this.

I realize that the intentionally inflammatory title of this post makes me look like a crying SJW, but you gotta admit it’s noticeable. A good 60-70 percent of human NPCs are white, when most humans live in Kryta, and ethnic Krytans are very much brown, or at least they were 200 years ago.

SJWs call this whitewashing—turning things white because white is “default” and “relatable.”

Someone on Reddit said it much better than me:

Hsere 6 points 6 hours ago (6|0)

Ehh, in some cases it does, but not here. Here’s the thing; the paleness of the GW2 Krytans isn’t just a lack of representation; it’s also a lore error. Usually with complaints like OP’s, I hesitate to agree — it’s a fantasy analogue to Western Europe, most people will be pale.

But Krytans are the descendents of a mix of settlers from Elona (GW1’s fantasy analogue to Africa) and Ascalonian (Europe analogue) refugees. So given what we know about GW2’s history, most Krytans actually should have Queen Jenna’s coffee-and-cream coloration, and there should be smaller numbers of really pale or really dark people. I’d also like to see more mixing of Ascalonian and Elonan architecture, culture, etc. in Kryta. But we don’t really get that.

Like I said earlier, with complaints like OP’s, I usually hesitate to agree. And that’s because the creator of the work (GW2, in this case) is generally being asked to alter (or sometimes even undermine) their world’s lore for the sake of inclusion and representation — which are, of course, good goals, but not the primary goal of the person telling the story.

But in this case, the opposite is true — we have a lack of cultural/aesthetic diversity not because of the lore, but despite it. So in this case, I think it’s much more fair to say that the writers/devs have made an error.

It also seems like a real missed opportunity to showcase GW2’s message of “we are stronger together than apart.” And that’s a shame.

Here’s another post from reddit:

[–]vonBoomslang [+1]? •w•? 43 points 17 hours ago* (46|3)
In GW1, Kryta was the place you fled to from Generic Fantasy Europe.
In GW2, Kryta is the new Generic Fantasy Europe.
[edit] I should clarify, this is not a rant – this is what I believe to be the reason for this change.

[–]tawaradan [+1] 16 points 17 hours ago (21|5)
Seriously, this was one of the coolest parts of GW1 to me. You start the game off in a pretty idyllic, generic Northern European fantasy country… and then they blow that place the kitten up at the end of the tutorial, and all that’s left is a blasted hellscape, and everything from humanity after that drew from very different real-world sources than typical western fantasy fare. It kept things fresh.

Seeing Kryta whitewashed so hard in GW2 was a major disappointment to me. Especially since we still had Ebonhawke and the ruins of Ascalon, so it’s not like they were forced to remove most of Kryta’s identity if they wanted to put in some Ascalonian architecture and people.

Mind you, for various reasons also discussed in the reddit comments, there are some reasonable explanations. Mainly, ethnic Krytans might not be as dominant of a population any more, what with their capital city being wiped out and all the other crap that has happened to them—along with the fact that Ascalonians were possibly a more advanced culture.

But even if we accept one or more of these explanations, a lot of the human population is very white, and those who aren’t unmistakably white in color are much fairer than you’d expect from someone with an even split of Ascalonian and Krytan blood.

Mind you, Anet has also done a good job of diversity and all that other SJW bullkittenery in other ways—I’m sure everyone’s sick of hearing about how great Marjory and Kasmeer are. But compared to the first Guild Wars, we’re seeing some faux pas in their stance toward “people of color.”

(I hate that term.)

It’s because GW2 ANet wants you to see the cultural diversity of this game in the Charr, Norn, Asura, Sylvari, Kodan, Tengu, Quaggan, etc. and not in the human cultures.

They want you to set aside the intra-human cultural distinctions of GW1 because it would be unfair to the new playable races that humans have such a rich history.

They are trying to create an entirely new cultural fabric of Tyria where “species” are important, not “ethnicity”, because this is what they want GW2 Tyria to be now.

They own the rights to the game and can do whatever the heck they want. And they want cats, rats, plants, giant humans, bears, hawks, manatees, etc.

Krytans are white because they think it’s a neutral(and safe) tone.

That last part is the problem. Why is white neutral? I’m not white. Clearly this makes me abnormal and not a “standard human.”

Again I sound like an SJW but Krytan-brown or mixed-race is what logically should be the usual color for humans. Making humanity largely white is a very clear decision and in my opinion a wrong one.

Obsidian.1328:

It’s because GW2 ANet wants you to see the cultural diversity of this game in the Charr, Norn, Asura, Sylvari, Kodan, Tengu, Quaggan, etc. and not in the human cultures.

They want you to set aside the intra-human cultural distinctions of GW1 because it would be unfair to the new playable races that humans have such a rich history.

They are trying to create an entirely new cultural fabric of Tyria where “species” are important, not “ethnicity”, because this is what they want GW2 Tyria to be now.

They own the rights to the game and can do whatever the heck they want. And they want cats, rats, plants, giant humans, bears, hawks, manatees, etc.

Krytans are white because they think it’s a neutral(and safe) tone.

Well, I don’t think the lack of background is necessarily a disadvantage.

I might be wrong, but I always thought that one of the reason the setting of Conan the Barbarian was popular was because it had near to no background (older civilizations have been wiped out, new ones are too young to have a story or a fixed culture).mIt gives a different, but not worse feeling.

Some are from Ascalon, the population has grown in Kryta while the majority of original Krytan descendants likely shrunk due to loss of land and near constant war.

Obsidian.1328:

It’s because GW2 ANet wants you to see the cultural diversity of this game in the Charr, Norn, Asura, Sylvari, Kodan, Tengu, Quaggan, etc. and not in the human cultures.

They want you to set aside the intra-human cultural distinctions of GW1 because it would be unfair to the new playable races that humans have such a rich history.

They are trying to create an entirely new cultural fabric of Tyria where “species” are important, not “ethnicity”, because this is what they want GW2 Tyria to be now.

They own the rights to the game and can do whatever the heck they want. And they want cats, rats, plants, giant humans, bears, hawks, manatees, etc.

Krytans are white because they think it’s a neutral(and safe) tone.

None of that cultural history has disappeared though. There are people of Elonian and Canthan descent running around Kryta right now. DR even has an Elonian district, and it was supposed to have a Canthan one too. It isn’t a purely racial thing.

I think the reason Kryta went from having a distinctive, unique character in general to being Generic Medieval Fantasy Land is more simple and more about marketing. GW2 is a product meant to have broad, international appeal, which means homogenization. Investors want it to look like other successful fantasy RPGs because they think that will make people more likely to buy it. It’s the “safe bet.” It’s the same reason most mass-market cars look nearly identical. Deviating from the norm in any way is a “risk” that must be assessed. Even if the people playing the game aren’t necessarily white, the expectation is still that the game have a white-majority populace living in a giant RenFair.

Velijan.9061:

None of that cultural history has disappeared though. There are people of Elonian and Canthan descent running around Kryta right now. DR even has an Elonian district, and it was supposed to have a Canthan one too. It isn’t a purely racial thing.

Not disappeared, but severely reduced to the point of insignificance. They made Divinity’s Reach into a mostly white city with little ethnic barrio sections as a nod to GW1. They got rid of the Canthan district because ANet was afraid it might offend Asian players to have an “eastern” district inside a “western” city…which ironically is entirely their own fault.

I think the reason Kryta went from having a distinctive, unique character in general to being Generic Medieval Fantasy Land is more simple and more about marketing. GW2 is a product meant to have broad, international appeal, which means homogenization. Investors want it to look like other successful fantasy RPGs because they think that will make people more likely to buy it. It’s the “safe bet.” It’s the same reason most mass-market cars look nearly identical. Deviating from the norm in any way is a “risk” that must be assessed. Even if the people playing the game aren’t necessarily white, the expectation is still that the game have a white-majority populace living in a giant RenFair.

Totally agree.

Somewhere along the way ANet sold out to mass appeal. It’s depressing.

Kazuhiro.5809:

That last part is the problem. Why is white neutral? I’m not white. Clearly this makes me abnormal and not a “standard human.”

Again I sound like an SJW but Krytan-brown or mixed-race is what logically should be the usual color for humans. Making humanity largely white is a very clear decision and in my opinion a wrong one.

Well, it’s not like the population of Ascalon disappeared entirely in the searing or sat totally in Ebonhawke. From what I’ve seen of images comparing Ascalon and Kryta 250 years ago, Ascalon was the more developed and probably generally more populated. It’s probable that the influxes of refugees from Ascalon were large enough to greatly influence Kryta. It’s not like Kryta wasn’t getting hit hard as well with wars and disaster anyway. They also had to essentially rebuild a capital as a bulwark fortress and there is only so many ways to build “towers” and “walls”.
It’s also not like Krytan architecture isn’t diverse either. Just compare Fort Salma and the Township of Claypool which are geographically right near each other. Cornucopian Fields also has a mix of the thatch roof buildings and high medieval European structures.
More on ethnicity, it’s really a mess of confusion with humans originating from somewhere else and not totally being defined. Also Orr, Kryta, and Ascalon were originally part of the same empire until Kryta and Ascalon broke away. The way I imagine it is Ascalon was more of a Central/Northern European locale, Kryta was more of a broadly Mediterranean locale in a Greek/Pheonician sense, and Orr was more Persian/Babylonian/etc.

Running through DR and taking a good look at the architecture, it really is a mix of things. The Ascalonian Rurikton is pretty stark in contrast to the rest of DR. I would class it as very Romanesque, though me being an architectural plebian I could be wrong. The parapets and towers on DR’s walls seem to be modeled after some of the bigger castles like Neuschwanstein and Hohenzollern which are Romanesque Revival. Would lend credence to my earlier conjecture that an Ascalonian diaspora would have a resounding influence on a rebuilding Kryta. Actually, the dominating housing architectural style in Kryta that you see in the East and Western Commons is totally different from those. It looks more 19th century to me almost. It’s probably indicative of popular and common construction techniques in this time period now. The other areas being either cultural relics or built during earlier periods.

I wish DR was a bit more…“crowded” though. We’d probably see better representation of the diversity then. It’s kinda hard to guage that when you got maybe two dozen or so NPCs in an area of DR. More thinking about how “brown” the citizens should be. If Krytans are supposed to be similar to Mediterranean, then their pigmentation is going to be all over the place. Just look at Berbers, Greeks, and Italians. Idk, it seems less to me like “white washing” and more like what is essentially an entire new nation due to all the diasporas and disasters from the first game.

The argument made here isn’t that Kryra has zero diversity. It’s that it went from having a distinctive, highly eclectic identity to one derived almost wholly from Western Europe in the typical fashion of the “high fantasy” genre. There really isn’t enough diversity there to properly reflect a “melting pot” in any sense, or at least not one of the elements we’ve seen in GW1. And the fact that it more resembles Ascalon now is incidental. Going by what we see, there would have had to have been so much immigration from Ascalon that it resulted in the complete supplanting of Kryta’s cultural identity. And sure, that’s a possibility, but why would the designers do that if not for the sake of a more conventional look and feel for the human territories?

Kazuhiro.5809:

Someone suggested that I post this here—partially because I’m interested in Anet’s answer to this.

I realize that the intentionally inflammatory title of this post makes me look like a crying SJW, but you gotta admit it’s noticeable. A good 60-70 percent of human NPCs are white, when most humans live in Kryta, and ethnic Krytans are very much brown, or at least they were 200 years ago.

SJWs call this whitewashing—turning things white because white is “default” and “relatable.”

Someone on Reddit said it much better than me:

Hsere 6 points 6 hours ago (6|0)

Ehh, in some cases it does, but not here. Here’s the thing; the paleness of the GW2 Krytans isn’t just a lack of representation; it’s also a lore error. Usually with complaints like OP’s, I hesitate to agree — it’s a fantasy analogue to Western Europe, most people will be pale.

But Krytans are the descendents of a mix of settlers from Elona (GW1’s fantasy analogue to Africa) and Ascalonian (Europe analogue) refugees. So given what we know about GW2’s history, most Krytans actually should have Queen Jenna’s coffee-and-cream coloration, and there should be smaller numbers of really pale or really dark people. I’d also like to see more mixing of Ascalonian and Elonan architecture, culture, etc. in Kryta. But we don’t really get that.

Like I said earlier, with complaints like OP’s, I usually hesitate to agree. And that’s because the creator of the work (GW2, in this case) is generally being asked to alter (or sometimes even undermine) their world’s lore for the sake of inclusion and representation — which are, of course, good goals, but not the primary goal of the person telling the story.

But in this case, the opposite is true — we have a lack of cultural/aesthetic diversity not because of the lore, but despite it. So in this case, I think it’s much more fair to say that the writers/devs have made an error.

It also seems like a real missed opportunity to showcase GW2’s message of “we are stronger together than apart.” And that’s a shame.

Here’s another post from reddit:

[–]vonBoomslang [+1]? •w•? 43 points 17 hours ago* (46|3)
In GW1, Kryta was the place you fled to from Generic Fantasy Europe.
In GW2, Kryta is the new Generic Fantasy Europe.
[edit] I should clarify, this is not a rant – this is what I believe to be the reason for this change.

[–]tawaradan [+1] 16 points 17 hours ago (21|5)
Seriously, this was one of the coolest parts of GW1 to me. You start the game off in a pretty idyllic, generic Northern European fantasy country… and then they blow that place the kitten up at the end of the tutorial, and all that’s left is a blasted hellscape, and everything from humanity after that drew from very different real-world sources than typical western fantasy fare. It kept things fresh.

Seeing Kryta whitewashed so hard in GW2 was a major disappointment to me. Especially since we still had Ebonhawke and the ruins of Ascalon, so it’s not like they were forced to remove most of Kryta’s identity if they wanted to put in some Ascalonian architecture and people.

Mind you, for various reasons also discussed in the reddit comments, there are some reasonable explanations. Mainly, ethnic Krytans might not be as dominant of a population any more, what with their capital city being wiped out and all the other crap that has happened to them—along with the fact that Ascalonians were possibly a more advanced culture.

But even if we accept one or more of these explanations, a lot of the human population is very white, and those who aren’t unmistakably white in color are much fairer than you’d expect from someone with an even split of Ascalonian and Krytan blood.

Mind you, Anet has also done a good job of diversity and all that other SJW bullkittenery in other ways—I’m sure everyone’s sick of hearing about how great Marjory and Kasmeer are. But compared to the first Guild Wars, we’re seeing some faux pas in their stance toward “people of color.”

(I hate that term.)

Illegal immigrants from Ascalon. Obviously.

Velijan.9061:

The argument made here isn’t that Kryra has zero diversity. It’s that it went from having a distinctive, highly eclectic identity to one derived almost wholly from Western Europe in the typical fashion of the “high fantasy” genre. There really isn’t enough diversity there to properly reflect a “melting pot” in any sense, or at least not one of the elements we’ve seen in GW1. And the fact that it more resembles Ascalon now is incidental. Going by what we see, there would have had to have been so much immigration from Ascalon that it resulted in the complete supplanting of Kryta’s cultural identity. And sure, that’s a possibility, but why would the designers do that if not for the sake of a more conventional look and feel for the human territories?

And the area that was actually developed, built up, and represented that architecturally in game was hit with a huge tsunami, abandoned, and taken over by a different group entirely.
Or are you talking about the stone building/thatch roof combos that still exist littered around?
Kryta is, relativistically, in a state similar to renaissance Europe technologically speaking. The biggest change seems to be the devs relative reorganizing of the global biomes (to what extent is up to debate). So with a technological level roughly that of renaissance Europe, in a temperate region that most of Queensdale and DR now occupy, what architecture are they supposed to have?
I’m not really seeing the generic in DR unless construction practices and technology decided to just stop for some reason.

Why are we arguing about this? The majority likely should have darker skin though. At least the kept the ruler’s lineage the same. Although, a lot can change over the course of 200 years.

But that’s another confusing thing though, what ethnicity were the Krytans originally supposed to be?
People keep arguing that they are African because of Elona but Ascalon was an offshoot of Orr wasn’t (bad filter) it? What about the reminiscing for the mesoamerican look in places? Well, wasn’t that because of the Mursaat? If so, why would they continue on with that aesthetic? I’m just not seeing anything solid enough aside from maybe NPC demographics depending on if you consider Krytans “historically” Mediterranean or African/Indian.

Lostwingman

I’m an architecture buff too, but modern Krytan structures resemble a hodge-podge styles with a strong “northern European” theme strewn throughout it. You’re missing the point when you try to categorize it all into real-life representations. Old Krytan architecture, while mildly reminiscent of Mediterranean flavor, was still a unique style unto the world of Tyria. Just about every old human culture drew from RL inspirations, but they also enjoyed a rather large amount of original ideas. Those ideas were what really made them what they are.

What ANet has done with modern Kryta is not only removed that old Tyrian uniqueness, but combined it with some RL styles that have no precedent in Kryta. Yes, the sections of DR show some distinctness to those old cultures. But the point is DR itself shouldn’t look the way it does, nor should its people. Regardless of this supposed “infusion” of lighter-skinned Ascalonians(there weren’t that many that left Ascalon anyway), the typical Krytan would have the skin tone of a Spaniard. Fort Salma is fairly close to what I would consider a natural architectural progression for Kryta after 250 years. But honestly, THIS is what people should picture when thinking of classic Krytan. And with only a small contingent of Ascalons around, and almost no Elonians and Canthas in the mix, 250 years should have changed little of Krytan culture.

On a related note, why are there dark-skinned options for Norn? If we’re to buy in to the Norn culture at all, you kinda have to admit they should be a light-skinned people…as are any who live in snowy mountains. In Nightfall, it would have been equally odd to have had pasty-white commoners strolling about Elona. You didn’t see that there because it was important for ANet back then for you to buy into the culture they are portraying to you. That’s not the case with GW2 ANet. Immersion and believability are less important than offering players options. That means letting the players create characters that look however they want, regardless of it makes any sense to their representative cultures.

Think less immersive and more theme-park.

Yea, that’s “classic” Krytan, but why shouldn’t the architecture have evolved at all?
Also I think I identified what the more modern common buildings are modeled after, Ottoman/Balkan houses. Most of the more recent individual and commoner buildings fit a very practical “stone base and lighter construction upper section” design. Additionally, I think Fort Salma is different because it is older than DR. I think where the people who feel off about DR get that feeling from is from the towers and parapets that visually stand out the most on the city walls. Although even then the very numerous styles can be pointed at all over the world. I get the feeling DR was built originally without those many parapets and sections and that they’ve mostly been added on over the years. Just my guessing on the matter though.

On demographics, the Charr invasion into Ascalon even after the Searing took many years, it was 20 years between the Searing and the Foefire. I wouldn’t think most people would choose to stay behind but honestly we’ll never know (until the devs decide to give us information). I still think pre-searing that Ascalon was likely far more densely populated than Kryta given its many cities and that it is plausible that many civilians simply fled South before eventually heading towards the nearest stable Human kingdom. Like I said, I think about the biggest strangeness is that I think DR should be more dense in general. At the same time, the majority of Krytans now live more temperate North of Salma as opposed to the balmy South. I wonder if that factored into anything at all.

Obsidian.1328:

On a related note, why are there dark-skinned options for Norn? If we’re to buy in to the Norn culture at all, you kinda have to admit they should be a light-skinned people…as are any who live in snowy mountains. In Nightfall, it would have been equally odd to have had pasty-white commoners strolling about Elona. You didn’t see that there because it was important for ANet back then for you to buy into the culture they are portraying to you. That’s not the case with GW2 ANet. Immersion and believability are less important than offering players options. That means letting the players create characters that look however they want, regardless of it makes any sense to their representative cultures.

Think less immersive and more theme-park.

The Norn thing confused me as well but I think it is mostly for player choice and variety. I’ve read that part of the historical palette widening of human skin tones follows with diets as well. Like diets high in seafood would get enough vitamin D to retain darker skin tones in low UV environments, prime example being inuit. It’s all very difficult to get into because it involves filling in a lot of deep deep depth in the functioning and set up of the world.

Lostwingman.5034:

Yea, that’s “classic” Krytan, but why shouldn’t the architecture have evolved at all?

It should evolve. But in its own Krytan way, and not some amalgamated puzzle of random fantasy images

Also I think I identified what the more modern common buildings are modeled after, Ottoman/Balkan houses. Most of the more recent individual and commoner buildings fit a very practical “stone base and lighter construction upper section” design. Additionally, I think Fort Salma is different because it is older than DR. I think where the people who feel off about DR get that feeling from is from the towers and parapets that visually stand out the most on the city walls. Although even then the very numerous styles can be pointed at all over the world. I get the feeling DR was built originally without those many parapets and sections and that they’ve mostly been added on over the years. Just my guessing on the matter though.

I think ANet just wanted a classic midieval fantasy look for DR and Kryta, you might be reading too much into it. What evidence do you have that they were going for something uniquely Krytan? I mean, all of the structures in WvW have the same look…it’s the generic fantasy look.

On demographics, the Charr invasion into Ascalon even after the Searing took many years, it was 20 years between the Searing and the Foefire. I wouldn’t think most people would choose to stay behind but honestly we’ll never know (until the devs decide to give us information). I still think pre-searing that Ascalon was likely far more densely populated than Kryta given its many cities and that it is plausible that many civilians simply fled South before eventually heading towards the nearest stable Human kingdom. Like I said, I think about the biggest strangeness is that I think DR should be more dense in general. At the same time, the majority of Krytans now live more temperate North of Salma as opposed to the balmy South. I wonder if that factored into anything at all.

Meh, that’s assuming regular Ascalons would rather flee than fight, but that’s another argument. Also, north Kryta was just as balmy as south. If you run along Kryta’s Giant’s Basin coast in GW1, there is no difference in clime or culture.

It should evolve. But in its own Krytan way, and not some amalgamated puzzle of random fantasy images

But what is this “own Krytan way”? That’s the answer I’m not even getting close to hearing. In a world of increased urbanization with a technology level somewhere between the 16th and 18th centuries, what exactly are they supposed to look like? I also don’t get the “amalgamated puzzle of random fantasy images” when the big mish-mosh is really on the wall tops. Everywhere else seems to either be intentionally designed as a district (Ossan quarter and Rurikton), have a mix of buildings old and new by simple passage of time and wealth (Cornucopian fields), and have old buildings due to historic importance or continued functional relevance (Fort Salma and Eldvin Monastery).

I just do not understand why that simplistic, practical, and clearly widely used even outside of Europe building style is apparently inappropriate.

I think ANet just wanted a classic midieval fantasy look for DR and Kryta, you might be reading too much into it. What evidence do you have that they were going for something uniquely Krytan? I mean, all of the structures in WvW have the same look…it’s the generic fantasy look.

Why do people keep going back to “medieval”? Ascalon in the first game was medieval, this not so much. The setting overall really doesn’t look medieval, it’s far more Renaissance, turning phase between the two at best. I am constantly left wondering if people see anything that looks vaguely European from the 7th to 19th centuries and thinks “generic medieval Europe!”. Why wouldn’t commoners build their homes in the simplest and practical way with the materials available? Common architecture is often reflective of the materials and climate at hand. Stone or Earthen walls with a thatch roof isn’t a “cultural identity” or “culturally unique” design. Everyone that had access to stone and who built permanent dwellings used that. The obvious developmental outcrop from that would be to reduce the amount of stone you need to reach the same height due to wood frame building techniques. I’m really not following how “wooden frames” is “generic medieval European”. People all over the world used these techniques, especially where hardwood is plentiful and it just so happens that much of current Kryta is ripe with hard wood.
At the same time, if you look at Ebonhawke, you know the “generic European” civilization, their structures are virtually all stone instead of being dominated by wood frame structures. This is again because of what materials are available to them. From an architecture stand point, I’m not seeing any big issues here.

Meh, that’s assuming regular Ascalons would rather flee than fight, but that’s another argument. Also, north Kryta was just as balmy as south. If you run along Kryta’s Giant’s Basin coast in GW1, there is no difference in clime or culture.

Umm, wars ALWAYS create huge numbers of refugees because the regular citizen who can flee, do.
Also I already said earlier that the biggest change the devs seriously effected has to do with the normalization of climate to make more sense in a latitudinal perspective. ie making northern Kryta temperate.

Oy, I hate this forum software.
If I seem confrontational, I’m not intending to be. I’m replying while at work and trying to make sense of a lot of the internal consistencies and inconsistencies as I go along as well.

Medieval, Renaissance, Baroque, it doesn’t matter really. The point is that they were designing modern Kryta with a “real-world” standard in mind, as opposed to something that was thematically more representative to Guild Wars Tyrian Kryta. The evolution of Krytan culture over 250 years shouldn’t make things more “Earth-like”, it should just make it more advanced in a Krytan way.

Look at Caudecus’s Manor, it looks like it’s some historic chalet right out of the French countryside for christ’s sake. What is that style doing there? What is it doing there? The answer is sentimentality and identity. GW2 ANet uses real-world imagery and themes to make the game-world more readily acceptable to the player base. It’s a simple marketing device used to appeal to the broadest spectrum of our society. They could care less about what it means for something to be intrinsically “Krytan” or whatever. They just want broad appeal, and having a generic, planet-Earth, renaissance(changed it for you) look with a white populace does that.

It’s the same thing with the hairstyles that I brought up in a different post. They aren’t particular to any specific Tyrian culture, they are specific to trendy hairstyles we have on Earth.

The geographical representation is far far more reduced than that, though. And I have to give it the OP, whom I am grateful to for not remaining silent. This “White-washing” essentially makes the game “by White people for White people”.

Obsidian.1328:

That’s not the case with GW2 ANet. Immersion and believability are less important than offering players options. That means letting the players create characters that look however they want, regardless of it makes any sense to their representative cultures.

Think less immersive and more theme-park.

If only that were the case …

Yet, character creation for humans offers only White facial structures and, apart from the wig-like megafro for men, no curly hair options. The way it’s set up for GW2, Krytans, PC and NPC alike, range from albinistic to melanistic Whites. Instead of being adressed, the Eurocentric imperative is reinforced again and again.

Bazompora.2635:

The geographical representation is far far more reduced than that, though. And I have to give it the OP, whom I am grateful to for not remaining silent. This “White-washing” essentially makes the game “by White people for White people”.

Obsidian.1328:

That’s not the case with GW2 ANet. Immersion and believability are less important than offering players options. That means letting the players create characters that look however they want within an overall white euro foundation, regardless of it makes any sense to their representative cultures.

Think less immersive and more theme-park.

If only that were the case …

Yet, character creation for humans offers only White facial structures and, apart from the wig-like megafro for men, no curly hair options. The way it’s set up for GW2, Krytans, PC and NPC alike, range from albinistic to melanistic Whites. Instead of being adressed, the Eurocentric imperative is reinforced again and again.

I edited my line for ya.

Obsidian.1328:

Medieval, Renaissance, Baroque, it doesn’t matter really. The point is that they were designing modern Kryta with a “real-world” standard in mind, as opposed to something that was thematically more representative to Guild Wars Tyrian Kryta. The evolution of Krytan culture over 250 years shouldn’t make things more “Earth-like”, it should just make it more advanced in a Krytan way.

Part of creating an immersive world is creating a believable world. That it is cheaper and easier to make buildings out of wood than stone when framing becomes known is a simple fact. Much like urbanization begets specialization or that stone makes good for defensive walls. The human kingdoms and societies have always been ordered and structured similar to societies here. If you want to see what truly different societies with completely different societal structures look like, look at the Charr, Sylvari, and Asura. For something as fundamental as architecture and construction you are going to need a little more difference from Earth societies than “a portion of the population are magic users”.

Obsidian.1328:

Look at Caudecus’s Manor, it looks like it’s some historic chalet right out of the French countryside for christ’s sake. What is that style doing there? What is it doing there?

Because it’s supposed to be the very image of posh opulence among some of the Krytan nobles? It’s also unique in design in the game looking different from any other locale in game. Given that Beetletun’s growth has been credited to Caudecus evidently, that would lend explanation to some of the other opulent peculiarities there.
Also it’s a chateau, this is a chalet.

Obsidian.1328:

The answer is sentimentality and identity. GW2 ANet uses real-world imagery and themes to make the game-world more readily acceptable to the player base. It’s a simple marketing device used to appeal to the broadest spectrum of our society.

The broadest spectrum want a French style 18th century chateau? Couldn’t have guessed that. Must be all those French Revolution RPGs that confused me.
And apparently this is still part of the “generic medieval” complaint still?
The guy has a giant floating sculpture of his head and an over the top and in world completely lashish and unique home. It’s over the top and out of place by design. That’s actually the very concept behind a chateau.
I can only assume then you are equally displeased by all the changes the Charr have undergone then? What with the suddenly being industrialists painted with both gearpunk and Roman terms create their new aesthetic?

Obsidian.1328:

They could care less about what it means for something to be intrinsically “Krytan” or whatever. They just want broad appeal, and having a generic, planet-Earth, renaissance(changed it for you) look with a white populace does that.

The problem is, it’s one thing to create from scratch a mish-mosh look for “ohhhhh, soo unique and clever” appeal but completely different on a scale of difficulty, forethought, and research to evolve that look in a practical and realistic manner. The fact is the building style you keep pointing at going “Krytan!” is just indicative of construction techniques they had. Stone/Earthen walls + thatch roofing != Unique and Innovative Cultural Style.

Obsidian.1328:

It’s the same thing with the hairstyles that I brought up in a different post. They aren’t particular to any specific Tyrian culture, they are specific to trendy hairstyles we have on Earth.

I can’t really comment much on that except to say that I think when they got to character design there is a lot lacking all over the place. Re: Charr clipping and clothing and hair disappears when you put on a helmet. Given issues like that, I lean on that as more of a “game resources” limitation as opposed to a “game lore” limitation.

Bazompora.2635:

Yet, character creation for humans offers only White facial structures

You know, a good half of those faces look like they were pulled right out of a JRPG.

Obsidian.1328:

I edited my line for ya.

If Krytans were supposed to be Mediterranean, then…yea? kinda?

Or do we really want to go down the “evil white being evil” road?

Oh well, show’s over apparently. The reason for everything is apparently just culture warfare. Was an interesting thread while it lasted.

Lostwingman.5034:

Part of creating an immersive world is creating a believable world. That it is cheaper and easier to make buildings out of wood than stone when framing becomes known is a simple fact. Much like urbanization begets specialization or that stone makes good for defensive walls. The human kingdoms and societies have always been ordered and structured similar to societies here. If you want to see what truly different societies with completely different societal structures look like, look at the Charr, Sylvari, and Asura. For something as fundamental as architecture and construction you are going to need a little more difference from Earth societies than “a portion of the population are magic users”.

Similar, but not the same by any means. And you’re right about the Charr, Sylvari, and Asura, but they are the creations of this game, not the last. A general rule to follow: things that were created for GW1 are downplayed, things that were created for GW2 are highly elaborated on. Those 3 races are the new devs’ babies, of course they are going to be way more fleshed out and unique.

Because it’s supposed to be the very image of posh opulence among some of the Krytan nobles? It’s also unique in design in the game looking different from any other locale in game. Given that Beetletun’s growth has been credited to Caudecus evidently, that would lend explanation to some of the other opulent peculiarities there.
Also it’s a chateau, this is a chalet.
The broadest spectrum want a French style 18th century chateau? Couldn’t have guessed that. Must be all those French Revolution RPGs that confused me.
And apparently this is still part of the “generic medieval” complaint still?
The guy has a giant floating sculpture of his head and an over the top and in world completely lavish and unique home. It’s over the top and out of place by design. That’s actually the very concept behind a chateau.
I can only assume then you are equally displeased by all the changes the Charr have undergone then? What with the suddenly being industrialists painted with both gearpunk and Roman terms create their new aesthetic?

Thanks for correcting me, chateau it is. Yes it’s wrong there because it’s pulled right out of our own history with very little changes. That it’s unique to Tyria is irrelevant if it’s not unique to us. It’s trite. And yes, the current Charr portrayal is way out of context, I’ve written volumes of posts on that and I doubt anyone here wants me to go further into it.

The problem is, it’s one thing to create from scratch a mish-mosh look for “ohhhhh, soo unique and clever” appeal but completely different on a scale of difficulty, forethought, and research to evolve that look in a practical and realistic manner. The fact is the building style you keep pointing at going “Krytan!” is just indicative of construction techniques they had. Stone/Earthen walls + thatch roofing != Unique and Innovative Cultural Style.

But they didn’t have to create it from scratch at all, there was a wealth of examples already from the first game. It would have been much easier to extrapolate 250 years later from those foundations. They instead chose to scrap it and make humanity a monoculture, DR districts aside. It’s lazy development, and/or done on purpose to downplay the differences in Tyrian’ human culture.

I can’t really comment much on that except to say that I think when they got to character design there is a lot lacking all over the place. Re: Charr clipping and clothing and hair disappears when you put on a helmet. Given issues like that, I lean on that as more of a “game resources” limitation as opposed to a “game lore” limitation.

Clipping has little to do with style. They just wanted hair to look similar to styles we have now, as opposed to anything that might be indicative of a particular profession or human culture. They valued familiarity over exclusivity.

While I -have- noticed this, and it -does- bug me, I try to keep this in mind:

Charr kicked humans out of Ascalon, right? So I guess it stands to reason there are a loooot of milky refugees. Still, though, I feel that Jenna is a good representation of about how a standard Krytan should look, and I think it could be better represented by the NPC population.

Bazompora.2635:

Yet, character creation for humans offers only White facial structures and, apart from the wig-like megafro for men, no curly hair options. The way it’s set up for GW2, Krytans, PC and NPC alike, range from albinistic to melanistic Whites. Instead of being adressed, the Eurocentric imperative is reinforced again and again.

And so your true Tumblr nature becomes exposed.

Leaving aside that you apparently think asians count as white now, several of those faces only look white because they’re light-skinned. And that’s before doing anything with sliders, which can have a fairly dramatic effect on a character’s appearance.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Bazompora.2635:

Yet, character creation for humans offers only White facial structures and, apart from the wig-like megafro for men, no curly hair options. The way it’s set up for GW2, Krytans, PC and NPC alike, range from albinistic to melanistic Whites. Instead of being adressed, the Eurocentric imperative is reinforced again and again.

And so your true Tumblr nature becomes exposed.

Leaving aside that you apparently think asians count as white now, several of those faces only look white because they’re light-skinned. And that’s before doing anything with sliders, which can have a fairly dramatic effect on a character’s appearance.

Player characters can look very Krytan if they feel like it—I don’t know what the problem there is. And, yes, the token asian faces are there too.

But, uh, it IS quite significant that there are eight humans in that final link, and every single one of them is white or probably-white.

You can’t have the dark lips that were typical for Krytans, can you?
And there’s no male face that looks realistically Asian, let alone Black, and all except 1 have the orthogathism that pronounces Caucasian chins. Even sylvari and asura display more ethnically diverse (human) traits than humans in GW2.

Lostwingman.5034:

You know, a good half of those faces look like they were pulled right out of a JRPG.

JRPG/anime/manga faces downplay Asian traits while trying to approximate the relatedness of a and some of the human faces for GW2 take on surreal idiosyncracies in similar way. This is only the case for about a quarter of the female faces and just 1 male face that looks like Sephiroth’s in Final Fantasy VII spin-offs. And just because they’re no longer Caucasian doesn’t make them automatically Asian and African counterparts to the White bulk.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

And so your true Tumblr nature becomes exposed.

Leaving aside that you apparently think asians count as white now, several of those faces only look white because they’re light-skinned. And that’s before doing anything with sliders, which can have a fairly dramatic effect on a character’s appearance.

I can only have a guess at the meaning behind the slur you hurl at me. Does what I think, make you uneasy?

There’s 1 female face that works for generic Asian and 1 female face that works for generic Black; I admit that does amount to “several”. Oh diversity, what options! But among male faces, there are effectively 0 African and (non-animesque) Asian faces. And sliders can only do as much; one can’t just make a Black guy by thickening lips and nose or an Asian by squinting eyes. But if you still think otherwise, do prove me wrong.

And what happened to curly hair options? It’s the most glaring omission - or joke! Not only are tight curls a defining trait for Black people and among Elonians, but partially Black people and many White persons (including the description of Riona Grady in Ghosts of Ascalon) have natural, larger curls aswell. Keep on disregarding?

Keep it civil guys. Anet is adding faces all the time. I’m sure they will correct any deficiency you feel may be present.

I agree that it’s a bit weird how native Krytans have somehow become a minority in their own country over a few hundred years.
However, if you explore the original Kryta in GW1, it is not exactly a huge nation.
A lot of land was wilderness or smaller villages, and they had massive immigration from Ascalon during that time, combined with political instability, the White Mantle, civil war etc. etc.

I don’t see Ascalonians so much immagrating to Kryta as the two cultures simply merging at that point in history for various reasons. This explains why the Kryta (and Krytans) you remember from GW1 doesn’t really exist any longer.

Also, there was that huge tidal wave when Orr rose. If it was powerful enough to trash LA, it would have wiped out a lot of smaller settlements along the coast as well.

I am definitely not a Social Justice Warrior either, but I agree 100% with OP. The only lore explanation for why Krytan population is so white would be if the Ascalonians forced their way in and killed all the Krytans, similar to how Europeans settled the Americas.

But that never happened, the Ascalonians were just refugees seeking a new home and the Krytans welcomed them in. Even if the Ascalonians reproduced like rabbits, they would still be a minority, and a mixed-race Ascalonian/Krytan would still have a darker complexion. It’s only been 250 years since the first game, which is hardly enough time for such a massive change in population.

The way I see it, the Krytan population should be similar to the United States population, just with Krytan people as the majority. In the U.S., 3 out of 4 people are of European descent, while the fourth person could be of Asian, African, Latino, or any other descent. The population of Kryta should be similar, in that 3 out of 4 people should be of Krytan descent (Dark eyes and hair, tan skin) and the fourth person could be of Ascalonian, Canthan, or Elonian descent.

Like I said, I’m not a social justice warrior, I don’t give a kitten about “equal representation” or “white-washing”. I am simply a huge fan of the Guild Wars Lore and I like to see it done justice. It makes no sense to have so many Ascalonian people in Kryta merely 2 and a half centuries after the fall of Ascalon.

Obsidian.1328:

It’s because GW2 ANet wants you to see the cultural diversity of this game in the Charr, Norn, Asura, Sylvari, Kodan, Tengu, Quaggan, etc. and not in the human cultures.

They want you to set aside the intra-human cultural distinctions of GW1 because it would be unfair to the new playable races that humans have such a rich history.

They are trying to create an entirely new cultural fabric of Tyria where “species” are important, not “ethnicity”, because this is what they want GW2 Tyria to be now.

They own the rights to the game and can do whatever the heck they want. And they want cats, rats, plants, giant humans, bears, hawks, manatees, etc.

Krytans are white because they think it’s a neutral(and safe) tone.

The average human is not white.

Spiuk.8421:

Obsidian.1328:

It’s because GW2 ANet wants you to see the cultural diversity of this game in the Charr, Norn, Asura, Sylvari, Kodan, Tengu, Quaggan, etc. and not in the human cultures.

They want you to set aside the intra-human cultural distinctions of GW1 because it would be unfair to the new playable races that humans have such a rich history.

They are trying to create an entirely new cultural fabric of Tyria where “species” are important, not “ethnicity”, because this is what they want GW2 Tyria to be now.

They own the rights to the game and can do whatever the heck they want. And they want cats, rats, plants, giant humans, bears, hawks, manatees, etc.

Krytans are white because they think it’s a neutral(and safe) tone.

The average human is not white.

He never stated that.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Also, there was that huge tidal wave when Orr rose. If it was powerful enough to trash LA, it would have wiped out a lot of smaller settlements along the coast as well.

Not even smaller settlements.

While the outposts are what we can visit most easily, the largest settlements outside of Lion’s Arch itself were in D’Alessio Seaboard and Riverside Province. As with most settlements outside of Kaineng they’re probably still smaller than their canonical size, but the likes of Beetletun, Shaemoor and Nebo were regarded as simple villages in GW1 – the important sites and main population centers were all on or close to the coast, and on the whole that was the center of Krytan culture. What we now view as Kryta was basically being out in the sticks as far as GW1 Krytans were concerned.

I also have a suspicion that GW1 Krytans weren’t as universally brown as the default Krytan model showed. The White Mantle and Shining Blade both had lighter skin tones among some of their types (Savants and Scouts being the most obvious).

What I suspect is the case is that northern Kryta was always more warm temperate (enough that it didn’t freeze in winters) than the subtropical south, with a gradient of skin tones going progressively lighter further north. Because they were the rural areas, the northern Krytans followed the fashions in architecture and clothing of the south – fashions that were more suited to subtropical climates, but northern Kryta was still warm enough that they could largely get away with it.

When the tidal wave hit, that not only disproportionately hit the darker-skinned portion of the population, it also had the effect of ending the cultural leadership of the south (which was completely abandoned by GW2’s time) over the north. Combined with the influx of Ascalonian styles from the refugees, this allowed the remaining Krytans to adjust to styles of dress and architecture that fit the climate they actually lived in, rather than following norms that came from further south… and, most likely, it was the ‘generic European’ Ascalonian styles that serves as the template for this.

So, basically: The demographic shift is a mix of Ascalonian migration and the devastation of the southern population of Kryta with the raising of Orr. The shift in architectural and clothing styles comes because the remaining Krytans have adopted styles suitable to the climate they actually live in rather than following fashions from the south.

Seems that all of humanity is a minority in Tyria. But I think that the surge of Caucasian Krytans may have been a recent event that coincided with the Ebonhawk Asuran gate and the human/charr treaty. It is possible that before these two events, the demographics of Kryta looked quite different.

Dust

That is some major reaching there, lol. For one thing, the Mantle and Shining Blade were more closely associated with the wild western part of the kingdom, not the north. For another, I don’t think it’s logical to assume the northern part of GW1 Kryta was in a different climate. The zones in that game tended to be universal by region, and not tied to minor latitudinal gradients that would be natural to Earth. Take Droks or Port Sledge, both are further south than Lion’s Arch and Ascalon City yet are frozen even though they sit on the sea coast.

Besides, I don’t remember seeing any difference in skin color, clothing, culture, or anything from walking the perimeter of Kryta. I suppose Mantle structures were markedly different, but that had nothing to do with latitude. Also, lots of people try to make the Ascalonian migration out to be something bigger than it was. There’s no way to prove it using in-game evidence, but the game tends to imply the refugees were a minority chunk of Ascalon’s population and not a majority one.

But I’d say the biggest reason is simply how ANet markets this game. Seeing as the majority of their target audience are Caucasian(and Asian now), it would make little economical sense for them to have humans as anything but resembling those buying and playing the game. Playing the other 4 races doesn’t come into play here, but I’d bet money that if ANet went with some Mediterranean(Greek, Spanish, Tunisian, w/e) motif for humans, the general appeal for new GW gamers would have been at least slightly less. And we all know ANet(and NCSoft) doesn’t do anything that might mess with potential profit.

I presume that’s directed at me, despite getting the name wrong…

You have to remember that GW1 was quite simplistic in how its themes were set up. Maps that were in the same region tended to have the same theme, whether it made sense or not (I suspect that the ‘Steamspurs’ was ArenaNet realising how silly the southern Shiverpeaks were, although that could be explained as the water there being essentially a lake formed by water melt with a wide river leading down to the sea proper). However, even if vegetation, building styles, and so on were the same towards the north doesn’t mean the north can’t be cooler. As long as it’s not so much cooler that subtropical plants cannot survive and people will freeze to death, then plants from the warmer south will still spread north and fashionable architectural styles from the south will still be used (also keeping in mind that most Krytans outside the WM were in crippling poverty). After all, a lot of plants from warmer climes still do quite well in southern Europe as long as they don’t have to put up with too many frosts or being snowed under.

More significantly to your argument, ArenaNet was quite sparing with models for generic noncombat NPCs. If they’d put in, say, a dozen generic adult* Krytan models and children to go with them, then they could have put in something subtle like a shifting of the shades moving from south to north. Instead, however, they have three** – male, female, and aged male (plus children). As a result, these models can be said to represent what was most typical at the time. However, they don’t represent the entire population, just what is most typical – and since the population of Kryta is weighted heavily towards the south, if any gradient in skin tone such as I observed exists, then the ‘typical’ Krytan used for that handful of models is of course going to be the darker tone observed in the south.

A broader cross-section can be reached by looking at the combatants. You claim that the WM and SB are more associated with the “wild west”, but this is inaccurate. That’s where a lot of the fighting was, true, but both the White Mantle (who were, after all, in control of the country) and the Shining Blade recruited from all across the country, and neither had any recruitment to speak of from the Maguuma… they just operated there.

So, considering this, let’s look at the models. There are six White Mantle models, not counting models for special characters, and three Shining Blade. One of the White Mantle models is Caucasian (and many of the others are noticeably lighter than the generic Krytan civilian model) and one of the Shining Blade models, which gives, at a very crude estimate, about 20% of the combatants having Caucasian looks. Certainly, Krytans of Caucasian appearance were, even in GW1, common enough that they got used as generic models, rather than a white Krytan being a cause for comment.

Now, even if they didn’t think of it back in GW1, the GW2 team may have considered certain demographic and climate considerations. The north of GW1 Kryta – ie, modern Kryta – is certainly cooler than the south – we see a distinct move in GW2 from warm temperate inland to subtropical on the coast, likely as much due to warm ocean currents (the reason why Britain has a different climate to Siberia on Earth) as lattitude alone. Kryta already had a mixed population before the Ascalonians arrived, and it makes sense that lighter-skinned Krytans and Ascalonians both would preferentially settle in the northern, cooler areas where they might be better adapted and more comfortable, while the darker-skinned Krytans are more dominant in the south.

(5000chars)

Now, throw in additional waves of refugees from Ascalon, and a massive tidal wave followed by invasions from Zhaitan wiping out preeeeetty much everything along the coast? That’s going to cause a shift in the average demographics. Add roughly half the surviving population of Ascalon to the 15-20% or so Krytans that were probably Caucasian, and you may well have been looking at a Kryta that was thirty or forty percent Caucasian in appearance, with the Ascalonians at least mostly concentrated far enough north to be spared the tidal wave. Then we have a tidal wave followed by Risen invasions that results in Lion’s Arch, D’Alessio Seaboard and Riverside Province – which are probably three out of the four most populated provinces we can visit in GW1 – then even if we assume that just the Ascalonians were unevenly distributed, that could well have pushed the proportion of the population with Caucasianesque skin tones close to or even over the 50% mark… and then you consider that the average Krytan actually isn’t all that dark and that genes that lead to lighter skin are generally dominant***, and it’s not actually all that surprising that the average skin tone in Kryta has lightened.

Now, whether ArenaNet actually thought through all this, or whether they just didn’t think about it, is not something I can say. However, at this point, your counterargument can basically be refuted by pointing out that GW1 ANet did not have the resources for enough models to properly represent Krytan demographics among generic citizens.

*I think it’s reasonable to exclude children, since it would look very strange if ANet had shown demographic variety by having children that looked different to their parents.

**There are a couple of others that are used frequently for different individuals, such as a generic merchant look. These tend to be lighter than the Krytan average.

.***While I shouldn’t have to say this, this is purely an observation of dominant and recessive in genetic terms, NOT a judgement on whether either is superior.

Drax

Yeah, meant you, sorry.

There’s no visual difference in north and south Kryta in terms of climate. Same palm trees, same sandy beaches, same everything. Sure some tropical plants can survive a little cooler weather, but most can not. Even where I live now in Kansas, Japanese Maples(which aren’t tropical) don’t survive well, yet 100 miles east in KC they do fine. It’s a very subtle shift in climate that you can’t visually see but it matters. But w/e.

I ran around all of Kryta today out of curiosity, didn’t see more than 1 or 2 npc’s that weren’t olive skinned in the whole thing, minus the Ascalon Settlement. And they all were the same skin shade, same fashion, same tattoos…I don’t know where see the gradient.

I didn’t say the Mantle and Blade were associated with Maguuma, I said western Kryta, Especially the Blade. Even so, both of those are almost all olive skinned like everyone else. That lighter-skinned Mantle model(the Savant), while 1 of a handful, is only used very rarely if you look at the exhaustive list of all Mantle mobs. Honestly, I don’t know where you get this skin shade thing. “Certainly, Krytans of Caucasian appearance were, even in GW1, common enough that they got used as generic models, rather than a white Krytan being a cause for comment.” No they weren’t.

You’re latitude argument could be used against you just the same, how the hell does anyone know global Tyrian weather patterns?

Ascalonians mixing with them…sure a little. Not many of them were there though.

Ughh, seriously, I’m already tired of trying to state the obvious I can’t go on. I’m not sure if you’re too much a fan to see it, or too stubborn to admit the changes. There’s absolutely no logical reason for modern Krytans to be be Caucasian. None at all. You can try to stretch every available possibility to the extreme to pat ANet on the back, but it just comes off as a little sad.

They changed the skin tone because they wanted humans to be white for GW2.

It’s really that simple.

My point is… in GW1, they simply did not have the resources to demonstrate such a gradient. They had a very limited set of models that they used for generic Krytans, and any generic Krytan got the model that fit their age and gender.

You’re claiming that the Savant model is repeated the least of the various WM mobs – but that really just represents that they had a certain set of mobs in Prophecies, and in WiK they mostly reused those models for new professions. As a result, dervishes, ritualists, paragons and assassins all used existing models, and unsurprisingly, ArenaNet chose which of the existing models to assign based on what they thought were the ‘least-bad fits’ to the professions from the new campaigns, not in any attempt to match demographics. Nevertheless, white Krytans are common enough that they are depicted as one of the ‘cannon fodder’ Mantle soldier types – and thus were common enough to not be as rare as you are trying to claim. Furthermore, the Shining Blade example that you’re trying to ignore, the female archer… was the most common Shining Blade model used according to the numbers you see. They might not go over 50% on their own, but when you saw a Shining Blade force, then when it wasn’t entirely the rangers it was usually mostly rangers and a smattering of others.

Regarding the Ascalonians… At the moment, one of the five well-populated districts in DR is Ascalonian, while outside Divinity’s Reach you have about seven major settlements that we can visit, including Ascalon Settlement (the Settlement, Nebo, Beetletun, Shaemoor, Claypool, Triskell, Garrenhoff). So you’re looking at something like about 15% of Kryta’s population that are Ascalonians that cling to their Ascalonian heritage strongly enough to remain in their own districts. The number that assimilated and now think of themselves as Krytan is harder to estimate, but a ballpark of roughly the same is probably reasonable, particularly considering emigration from Ebonhawke. Add a significant existing population of white Krytans, refugees from Orr and Cantha as well, and the possibility of an unequally distributed tragedy from Zhaitan’s rise…

It all makes sense when you think about it, and you’re not looking for areas to attack the company on. Believe me, I’ve laid down my own criticism where it was warranted.

I still don’t know what your’e looking at. No Mantle soldier looks white on that list.

And you think the Blade Ranger looks white? The one with dreads? Yeah, her skin is lighter…instead of dark brown it’s medium brown.

/rollseyes

Makes me wonder how many of the NPCs are individually made, or their appearances are randomized. I’d be interested to see the ratios of white/colored NPCs individually created and the ratio of randomized. And of course the ratio of how many were created VS randomized.

My thoughts would be that the individually created ones follow the lore more closely, like Queen Jenna for instance. While the random ones tend to be more white (as the default in character creation skin color is generally white).

The reason humans (and norn) are toned white because anet perceives that most people who play the game are white, as the majority of people in the United States and Europe tend to be white; not to say that racial minorities don’t make a significant population, of course, me being one of them. Is it right? I don’t know, I don’t tend to worry about it. If you look at Queen Jenna though, she’s pretty tan, and you can play a non-white character norn/human.

Also, keep in mind that modern day Kryta has humans from all over the human world.

I would say that the undead attack after the destruction of Orr, the long civil war in Kryta and the Charr invasion before wiped out a large part of the original population. Later the Ascalonian refugees simply repopulated the devastated country.

pessimist.7294:

I would say that the undead attack after the destruction of Orr, the long civil war in Kryta and the Charr invasion before wiped out a large part of the original population. Later the Ascalonian refugees simply repopulated the devastated country.

That’s a fair point but Ascalon suffered the Searing. Not only would a lot of people have died from the crystals, but the land was scorched and the rivers were turned into tar, which would probably have caused massive starvation. And then the charr invaded of course.

It’s not really clear if any Ascalonians immigrated to Kryta after Rurik left but if they did then they would have to face the same difficult journey. So with all these factors in mind I still think the native Krytans should be more populous than Ascalonian immigrants.

Tonic.9301:

pessimist.7294:

I would say that the undead attack after the destruction of Orr, the long civil war in Kryta and the Charr invasion before wiped out a large part of the original population. Later the Ascalonian refugees simply repopulated the devastated country.

That’s a fair point but Ascalon suffered the Searing. Not only would a lot of people have died from the crystals, but the land was scorched and the rivers were turned into tar, which would probably have caused massive starvation. And then the charr invaded of course.

It’s not really clear if any Ascalonians immigrated to Kryta after Rurik left but if they did then they would have to face the same difficult journey. So with all these factors in mind I still think the native Krytans should be more populous than Ascalonian immigrants.

18 Years passed from the Great Fire to the final defeat of Ascalon. In this time the Orrian Risen have been dealt with, the dwarfes stopped their civil war and turned into stone, the Krytan civil war has ended and the humans gained the Asura and Norn as allies. So its a lot of time, the route trough the Shiverpeaks is more safe than before and there is actually no reason for a common Ascalonian to stay in a devastated country.
Also Ebonhawke (where all remeaining survivors live) has been connected with Kryta trough a Asuran portal since it has been established.

Obsidian.1328:

I still don’t know what your’e looking at. No Mantle soldier looks white on that list.

And you think the Blade Ranger looks white? The one with dreads? Yeah, her skin is lighter…instead of dark brown it’s medium brown.

/rollseyes

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/c/c9/White_Mantle_elementalist.jpg

And yeah, the Shining Blade ranger is within a Caucasian skin tone range – for somebody who’s been tanned from living outdoors in a warmer part of the world.

Maybe we’re looking at things from different perspective heres. I’m Australian – I’m used to seeing people who are definitely Caucasian but still have a reasonable degree of melanin because that’s what the environment produces. You don’t have to be the next thing to albino to be “white”.

Now, the people of Divinity’s Reach are probably not spending as much time out-of-doors as the typical Krytan farmer from GW1 did. That alone will cause a lightening of skin tones even if the demographic makeup is exactly the same… and there’s good reason to think that it isn’t.