Guild Wars 2

Tobi

Like I said, feel free to read any of my past posts over the last year and a half. I’m not going to spend 4 hours cut & pasting for something you can do with a few clicks of the mouse.

It’s also completely understandable you refuse to see a problem in anything ANet puts out there. There are tons of fans who will blindly accept anything thrown their way simply because it’s “official” or “owned”. If you think having an educated opinion about something doesn’t matter, then we are at an impasse. Calling something like “Blues Brothers 2000” anything thematically close to the original doesn’t only mean you are honoring the copyright owners wishes, it also means you’re an idiot.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize GW2 doesn’t follow along the same lines as GW1 in either form or function. The fact that I have to explain why that is to you is exhausting. How does anyone not see that?

And yes, only the original author should be editing his own work. Quite frankly I don’t give a dam how it is generally accepted in the industry; if someone tried to edit something I wrote simply because “they own the rights” to it, I’d be furious. However, anyone can add to it all they want. They just need to know that whatever they add doesn’t nullify what came before. Cuz that’s not adding, that’s editing. And GW2 has edited.

Not sure what you mean by your Star Trek reference, that’s not like what was done here. But I’m glad you brought it up. Star Trek(Abrams aside, I agree) kept up the same overarching thematic elements throughout its entirety. The all were steeped in moral tales, and all dealt with RL contemporary issues through the lens of sci-fi. The only thing of note that really changed was how each redux nominally reflected the producers and time period in which it was made. Had one of them turned it into something “Abrams-esque” in a tv series, we would agreement it is way off the mark. Yet GW2 does the same thing, being “inspired by” GW1, and you can’t bring yourself to question it?

Man up. Or don’t, it doesn’t matter to me really.

Dustfinger.9510:

Obsidian.1328:

They took it from the Charr, and whoever else lived there. I’m sure there were all sorts of creatures that used to roam the land. The difference is no other group, that we know of, has any heritage tied to the place. ANet never bothered to add that in the GW1 ‘verse. You’re basically saying a group can’t claim a spot because there might have been some other civilization there in the past that called it home. That’s silly, by that rationale you couldn’t add any new races anywhere. The only know group with any significant cultural ties to Ascalon prior to GW2…is Ascalons. Why even bother erasing that? What possible reason could there be to do that?

I’m not saying that at all. You’re the only one hung up on ancestral claims. You’re trying to apply your flawed logic to me. But your logic only rests on a double standard.

It doesn’t matter that we didn’t know who they took it from. It doesn’t matter that they eventually decided it was charr. Your logic is flawed simply because humanity took it from somebody. You don’t have a rational argument. That’s why it continually jumps in and out of the game. What I’m saying is that anybody who currently owns it ….. owns it. No human alive can claim that it was taken from them. Anybody who could have said that died hundreds of years ago.

edit: by reasoning that land shouldn’t be taken due to past cultural identity, you are the one actually saying you can’t add new races anywhere.

That humanity took it from someone doesn’t have anything to do with my point. And yes, the Charr currently own it. But, every Ascalonian alive can claim it was taken from them. You seem to think cultural identity only matters to the time in which you are alive. All those npc’s kitten ily shouting “For Ascalon” aren’t shouting it for their own, small time-frame of existence. They are shouting it because the writer was trying to tap into the basic, timeless, tribal roots we all share as human beings and using that to evoke a sentimentality about a piece of land in the game. The writer was trying to endear Ascalon to the PC. And not just the peeps, but the kingdom as well. If a player doesn’t give two farts about it, then fine, carry on. But don’t try and say it’s not there…it is.

Your second line, I have no idea what that means. There’s plenty of space to add new races and such. Wth are you talking about?

Obsidian.1328:

Tobi
Like I said, feel free to read any of my past posts over the last year and a half. I’m not going to spend 4 hours cut & pasting for something you can do with a few clicks of the mouse.

Cite or link. You have no credit with me on taking your statements at face value after the following:

It’s also completely understandable you refuse to see a problem in anything ANet puts out there. There are tons of fans who will blindly accept anything thrown their way simply because it’s “official” or “owned”.

It’s not about being a fan. It’s not about even liking the lore. (I have plenty of issues and could probably write a whole essay on what went wrong with the Personal Story. And a thesis paper on the Living Story if I cared enough).

It’s about “this is the way it is, and denying it is being willfully ignorant”.

If you think having an educated opinion about something doesn’t matter, then we are at an impasse. Calling something like “Blues Brothers 2000” anything thematically close to the original doesn’t only mean you are honoring the copyright owners wishes, it also means you’re an idiot.

Who said that? Because I assure you I did not. That movie was terrible, but it was totally within the rights of those who held the property to make it. Same with the repeated remakes of “The Parent Trap” over and over again like clockwork – that’s the right of the companies who hold the rights. I’m relatively sure such rights are enumerated in laws somewhere and if you want, I’ll start digging for them.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize GW2 doesn’t follow along the same lines as GW1 in either form or function. The fact that I have to explain why that is to you is exhausting. How does anyone not see that?

I do see on some criteria it does not match. I also point out it doesn’t matter, because it’s the right of the property holder to do such. You can explain all you want, but until you can prove to me it’s illegal or wrong to do so, I won’t entertain it.

And yes, only the original author should be editing his own work.

I disagree. They should have an editor who has nothing personally/emotionally invested in the work so they can catch troubles instead of skipping over them. Editors are a necessity for writers, otherwise we get stuff which is dreadfully needing work. Sure, it is the final decision of the author . . . but I in no way think the author should be the only one to have input in how good a story is.

I mean, unless you want another Phantom Menace (someone really needed to sit on Lucas on that one).

Quite frankly I don’t give a dam how it is generally accepted in the industry; if someone tried to edit something I wrote simply because “they own the rights” to it, I’d be furious. However, anyone can add to it all they want. They just need to know that whatever they add doesn’t nullify what came before. Cuz that’s not adding, that’s editing. And GW2 has edited.

And your point about it being edited is? That’s the (legal) right of the property holder, not the people writing it. Be upset at it all you want, and pretend all you want the changes don’t matter. Just don’t try to enforce your as what it “should be”, because then you’re sounding extremely . . . entitled.

You do not own the lore, you do not write the lore. You have no say in what the lore actually is, or is not.

Yet GW2 does the same thing, being “inspired by” GW1, and you can’t bring yourself to question it?

I do. I mean, you want me to go back through post history but you won’t look at mine? Let me save you some time, though, and be courteous.

I’ve questioned the Living Story development, and determined at the end of their first “season” it was weak and needed severe tightening up for their next run at it. I’ve said the Personal Story really needed better consistency between “chapters”, so it seemed like one coherent story instead of eight different ones. I’ve said their inability to keep good characters relevant through the Personal Story but to keep introducing new ones hamstrung the development and meant they had to "cheat’ to get us to like them (Tybalt and Sieran notably were subject to such “cheats”).

I like the game, I can like the lore for the most part. I really am not too fond of the two Story threads they’ve put together, though they have good parts surface here and there.

Man up. Or don’t, it doesn’t matter to me really.

And what if happened to be female? How insulted should I be? Food for thought there.

I don’t look at the personal story/living story as much as the world and characters and detail.

Which they’ve done an awesome job at IMO. Especially how a number of GW1 major spots are still around in some form, like Fort Koga or Piken Square.

Kalavier.1097:

I don’t look at the personal story/living story as much as the world and characters and detail.

Which they’ve done an awesome job at IMO. Especially how a number of GW1 major spots are still around in some form, like Fort Koga or Piken Square.

Hmm, well to paraphrase A.B. – That’s another topic.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I do see on some criteria it does not match. I also point out it doesn’t matter, because it’s the right of the property holder to do such. You can explain all you want, but until you can prove to me it’s illegal or wrong to do so, I won’t entertain it.

This is why I’m trolling you.

By hiding behind the copyright laws, all you are doing is approving of this type of thing. I don’t know why you can’t separate “legal” and “wrong” in your mind. Perhaps you see it as some sort of civic pillar that can’t be broached by moral or ethical standards. Perhaps you just think laws trump right, idk. But by doing so, you are in essence supporting and validating all those fail reduxes out there in the world. You are giving the green light to companies that put out this crap because you won’t dare question them when they have the title in their back pocket. You can’t fathom being anywhere but “in your place,” which is basically quiet suggestions masked by tacit approval.

You are part of the problem.

[quote=3953331;Tobias Trueflight.8350:]

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obsidian.1328:

Man up. Or don’t, it doesn’t matter to me really.

And what if happened to be female? How insulted should I be? Food for thought there.

Why does that matter? It’s a figure of speech, not a sexist remark.

Obsidian.1328:

That humanity took it from someone doesn’t have anything to do with my point. And yes, the Charr currently own it. But, every Ascalonian alive can claim it was taken from them. You seem to think cultural identity only matters to the time in which you are alive. All those npc’s kitten ily shouting “For Ascalon” aren’t shouting it for their own, small time-frame of existence. They are shouting it because the writer was trying to tap into the basic, timeless, tribal roots we all share as human beings and using that to evoke a sentimentality about a piece of land in the game. The writer was trying to endear Ascalon to the PC. And not just the peeps, but the kingdom as well. If a player doesn’t give two farts about it, then fine, carry on. But don’t try and say it’s not there…it is.

Your second line, I have no idea what that means. There’s plenty of space to add new races and such. Wth are you talking about?

that’s no problem. it can be there. It is still a double standard. Now if we can agree that it is based on a double standard and that it is still there, then we really have no disagreement.

The second line was directly referencing the claim that my arguement left no room for other races. But my logic doesn’t hinge on that reasoning.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I do see on some criteria it does not match. I also point out it doesn’t matter, because it’s the right of the property holder to do such. You can explain all you want, but until you can prove to me it’s illegal or wrong to do so, I won’t entertain it.

This is why I’m trolling you.

And at least you admitted it.

By hiding behind the copyright laws, all you are doing is approving of this type of thing. I don’t know why you can’t separate “legal” and “wrong” in your mind.

Because some things are “illegal” and are not “wrong” by my internal moral code. I won’t go into details, but it stands to reason there are thus things which are “legal” and are “wrong”. But they are, in fact, two separate things to consider. Lastly, most importantly of all, there is a very specific detail which you have failed to grasp spectacularly in your trolling:

Just because you don’t like something, doesn’t make it wrong, or if you like something doesn’t make it right.

I hope you follow me on that score. You don’t like what they did with the lore? Fine, that’s okay, but it’s not inherently “wrong” to do that sort of thing. It’s an artistic decision, which doesn’t have a “right or wrong” the same way, oh, an engineering decision does, or a mathematical equation can be true or false.

It’s not “wrong”. You just don’t approve.

But by doing so, you are in essence supporting and validating all those fail reduxes out there in the world.

Validating? Supporting? You’re really reaching for it if you’re trolling me. Frankly, I don’t care about most of those beyond going “meh, they remade it? Is it any good? I might see it then”. That’s usually as far as it goes, because it does me no amount of good to go full-on-crazy decrying something as trash to people who either won’t agree with me or already do. And to top it off, because I’d want to make an informed rebuttal of why they suck I’d need to play/watch them . . . and I don’t want to do that most times.

See, here’s the real thing people forget – I just don’t patronize their stuff anymore. I’ve left a ton of books sitting at two-thirds because the story took a weird turn and I decided it was not for me. (See: “The Tommyknockers” novel by Stephen King, but I did have to go back and finish it for a class so I could write a critique.)
I’ve left MMOs because I had a problem with their lore decisions, their system decisions, or because I got tired of them wringing time away from my life I couldn’t spare. (Ultima Online, EverQuest, Meridian 59, various others) If I don’t like doing stuff I just leave.

Why not turn activist on the forums? From prior experience, it’s the only metric some of them care about, and to be honest it’s the only course of action I feel is properly just.

If I don’t like “House of a 1000 Corpses”, I’m not going to buy a theater ticket, I’m not going to pay for it on pay-per-view, I’m not going to rent it, I’m not going to watch it when it comes on cable channels, and I sure as all heck am not going to download it illegally to watch it.

Does it make a difference? Well it does to me – I don’t have to sit through a movie I don’t want to.

You are part of the problem.

No, no, neighbor. There’s where you’re wrong. It’s the only sane, and mature, solution.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

In the real world countries with a real and strong cultural/racial link with Europe (and along the way the rest of the world as well) like America were able to benefit since immigrants bring this fire with them to their new homeland. It was the promise of the ’American Dream" that inspired so many to make the crossing. To start a new life in what many saw America as: “The Promise Land”.

The mix of the drive and different but complimentary ideas but with a shared sense of the “American Dream” is what forged modern America. And has done so since the beginning.

The has been almost countless examples of this shared experience.

In the case of the Charr there is to my knowledge no example of this transformation spark and drive to change their nation to the way they are now in the current game.

There are potentials:

- Pyre’s revolution. The focus moving away from following the shaman caste at that time and instead dropping the idea of “gods” being the way to power for the charr. I would present the opinion that trusting in their own strength rather than needing gods to define the strength of the charr was a step forward to organizing in a different manner.

- Recovery of Black Powder. Dwarven black powder, gunpowder, more than likely changed everything when it was looked at closer. We know there were demolition charges back in the time of the Great Destroyer, but it’s implied the dwarves no longer had a monopoly on it after turning to stone. Hence, this is where the firearms came from.

- The Sacking of Ascalon City. Say what you will, the charr were going to win an invasion when it was focused solely on the one target and not fragmented. If the path of the Searing stopped in Ascalon and didn’t just keep rolling it wouldn’t have been so easy to resist the charr occupation. Even saying that, it wasn’t easy at all and there was a very near loss which barely pulled through. Twice.
But the ending of their enemy nation to where it couldn’t actually become stronger anymore, and being able to hold that territory in the face of the Foefire effects? I’d call that a spark which tells the charr they most certainly are in the right path and it should be developed. Hence the unification and organization we see today.

Of course, this isn’t without problems. The charr system doesn’t really work unless they’re at war with someone, since they glorify battle and warriors so much and look down on others. If they were given a period of actual peace I think the current state of charr culture would collapse and need to become something . . . else.

The revolution that Pyre led would but have led to any significant change in the Charr mind-set towards science and engineering. At best it allowed a better distribution of resources among the re-formed Legions.

The Legacy of the Dwarves would have been claim by the Ebon Vanguard of the Eye of the North as spoils of victory. Our player character would have helped as a human – Gwen and Kieran Thackeray recover such a prize as Dwarven gun-powder/technology obviously was. Vekk would certainly have made that obvious to his friends at least.

At the time Pyre would have had no interest in it since his focus was his people. He’s a warrior(yes, specifically he’s a Ranger) of this people and no bookworm of any sort. His reaction and professional relationship with to Gwen is proof of that. The Dwarves were allied to the Ebon Vanguard of Ascalon, the Norn of the Shiverpeaks and the Asurans and had no agreement with the Charr(to my knowledge).

So it would have been the Ascalonian Humans using the remains of their society and war machine that would have reversed-engineered dwarven know-how with the able assistance of Ogden and Vekk among many others. This has not been stated by the GW2 writers since the obviously did not want this to happen. not because its the most logical lore progression but because they want to make the Charr too powerful for the Humans to challenge.

The fact is logically the Ascalonian Humans would have been the ones to make use of Dwarven technology. Since the Charr at the very least was in the process of a civilisation-wide civil war and through Pyre would at the time see either seen no value and or no priority for such things. And as mention the Ebon Vanguard would have promptly claimed it all with Ogden and Vekk’s assistance.

This technology would have enhanced dramatically the fighting spirit and fire of the Defenders of Human Ascalon.

And so one can reasonable ask: how could the events that led to the Foefire ever have occurred when the Charr armies would NOT have been able to even get near Ascalon City.

Lets make this even clearer. The revolution was already well on its way towards spreading across the whole of the Charr people during the events of “GW:Eye of the North”. This disruption would I imagine be significant enough to halt the Charr warmachine sufficiently to give the humans of Ascalon, Kryta and Orr time to re-group. Beyond that who could say on what might have been but will never be.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

The revolution that Pyre led would but have led to any significant change in the Charr mind-set towards science and engineering. At best it allowed a better distribution of resources among the re-formed Legions.

The Legacy of the Dwarves would have been claim by the Ebon Vanguard of the Eye of the North as spoils of victory. Our player character would have helped as a human – Gwen and Kieran Thackeray recover such a prize as Dwarven gun-powder/technology obviously was. Vekk would certainly have made that obvious to his friends at least.

At the time Pyre would have had no interest in it since his focus was his people. He’s a warrior(yes, specifically he’s a Ranger) of this people and no bookworm of any sort. His reaction and professional relationship with to Gwen is proof of that. The Dwarves were allied to the Ebon Vanguard of Ascalon, the Norn of the Shiverpeaks and the Asurans and had no agreement with the Charr(to my knowledge).

So it would have been the Ascalonian Humans using the remains of their society and war machine that would have reversed-engineered dwarven know-how with the able assistance of Ogden and Vekk among many others. This has not been stated by the GW2 writers since the obviously did not want this to happen. not because its the most logical lore progression but because they want to make the Charr too powerful for the Humans to challenge.

The fact is logically the Ascalonian Humans would have been the ones to make use of Dwarven technology. Since the Charr at the very least was in the process of a civilisation-wide civil war and through Pyre would at the time see either seen no value and or no priority for such things. And as mention the Ebon Vanguard would have promptly claimed it all with Ogden and Vekk’s assistance.

This technology would have enhanced dramatically the fighting spirit and fire of the Defenders of Human Ascalon.

And so one can reasonable ask: how could the events that led to the Foefire ever have occurred when the Charr armies would NOT have been able to even get near Ascalon City.

The humans for the large part had no real relationship with the dwarves, save a few heroic PCs.

While the deldrimor dwarves had a friendly relationship with the ascalonian humans, both people were busy with their own problems.

Ascalonians with the charr and the deldrimor with the stone summit.

When the deldrimor dwarves went hero mode and gave up their mortal lives for a lifetime of fighting the destroyers, the first people who were going to claim the dwarven resources would be the stone summit dwarves who hate everybody except themselves.

When they died off, the dwarven resources were left to the wind. Per the lore, the charr picked up the gun powder. The rest is history.

Humans with guns and engineer savvy today own that by reason of the charr. Wonder if those separatist engineers realize that?

“BTW you crazy mouse, before I kill you, I hope you enjoyed that gun courtesy of the Iron Legion technology revolution. You’re welcome and good bye. ”

It was the Humans who as per my post that gain the Dwarven technology not the Charr. The Charr were not interested in it. They had their own house to clear up that’s to Pyre. You obviously did not read my post.

The humans gaining the Dwarven technology was not dependant on their alliance with any race. It was gain by the Ebon Vanguard on the recommendation of Ogden and Vekk.

The Charr had no access the Dwarven tech as the humans gathered. The truth is most of it was collected by the Ascalonian humans by the time the Charr had finished with their civil war.

The Arenanet writers of course did not acknowledge this in their rush to write lore in favour of the Charr in time for the release of the current game.

And so all the Tech you see the Charr with should have been with the Human Kingdoms of Human Ascalon (Ascalon south of the ruins of the Great Northern Wall) and Kryta. It is the humans that have Airships, the Helicopters, Armoured vechiles, the Artillery pieces, small arms (rifles/pistols and associated munitions) all thanks to the reverse-engineering of Dwarven Technology and human inventiveness and adaptablility.

The Charr at best got scraps of Dwarven Tech at most with most already picked off clean by the humans of both Ascalon and Kryta. The Charr remain a tribal warrior based society with no deities thanks to Pyre. A society that only values war with outsiders and in particular the Humans.

Since on what basis would they gain access or even knowledge of how to take advantage of the technology? Pyre was very much an outsider in the group of heros and heroines that the player-character was a member of. Mostly keeping to himself. The Ebon Vanguard lead by Langmar, Kieran and Gwen would have guarded the captured Deldrimor Dwarfs Legacy and transferred it to the Mages and Engineers of Ascalon City since the other centers of human learning at that time were now in ruins as a direct result of the Searing.

And as for the Stone Summit Dwarves? Both human nations knew from our hero group that they kill the Crown Prince of Ascalon Rurik destined to marry Crown Princess Salma of Kryta. So they would have been hunted down and slaughtered by the Ebon Vanguard, The Lionguard and the Shining Blade. With intelligence from the Order of Whispers.

The Deldrimor Dwarfs were now stone and effectively an undead race, with no individuality – they are now all “The Great Dwarf”. And as such no longer had use of their former worldly possessions. Ogden knew this and with Vekk’s super genius mind and their friendship with Gwen and Kieran ensured that only humans and the other allied races gain the benefit of this Legacy. The Asura had their own tech, and the Norn not interested with the bulk of it, left the humans to use it all as they will. Leaving the Charr with scraps that they know not of or value.

So why would the Human Kingdoms of Tyria want any tech or engineering from the Charr?

That entire post sounds like fanfic.

edit: Correction, bad, human biased fanfic. Deldrimor dwarves were friendly with humans, but as I recall it was more trade partners/allowing passage, not “BEST BUDS FOR LIFE”

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

It was the Humans who as per my post that gain the Dwarven technology not the Charr.

That says it all, really.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

You obviously did not read my post.

I’ll be honest with you, based on the “according to me” premise you’re pitching (in addition to poor formatting + wall of text)… no.

Not as thoroughly as I might have otherwise. Don’t get me wrong… I read enough to get what you’re on about, but that’s the sum of it.

Nicholas, there’s nothing to debate or discuss here if you’re throwing the lore out the window and substituting your own.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

So why would the Human Kingdoms of Tyria want any tech or engineering from the Charr?

Heh. That’s what I said about the separatist engineer. Violating his own hatred. A hypocrite. Them dirty charrs gotta die!

… Thanks for inventing guns and bombs to kill you with though.

But, hatred is rarely logical and often blind. Those that hate don’t think very deeply, so it’s entirely possible for the loons to be hypocritical charr tech using fellows, who hate charr.

You see that kind of thing in real life all the time.

Actually, we’ve seen the separatists use weaponry that no other charr has shown thus far. I am actually very curious as to whom they have inventing these little marvels of mayhem.

Well, Uzolan in Kryta was aligned with them… so perhaps they have benefators in form of inventors in kryta.

bullyrook.2165:

Actually, we’ve seen the separatists use weaponry that no other charr has shown thus far. I am actually very curious as to whom they have inventing these little marvels of mayhem.

Briarrose the not-so-evil but still equally insane evil twin sister of Scarlet she never mentioned…or Scarlet herself.

semi-jokes aside it could be White Mantle remnants, not necessary that Minister, supplying the tech or even the Mursaat.

I highly doubt the white mantle are behind the separatists who are killing charr. They don’t care about that.

bullyrook.2165:

Actually, we’ve seen the separatists use weaponry that no other charr has shown thus far. I am actually very curious as to whom they have inventing these little marvels of mayhem.

What weapons would those be? The only Separatist I’ve seen use non-human/Charr technology is Uzolan, as mentioned above, and HE stole/reverse-engineered plans from Snaff. (He may have obtained said plans from the Inquest.)

CETheLucid.3964:

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

It was the Humans who as per my post that gain the Dwarven technology not the Charr.

That says it all, really.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

You obviously did not read my post.

I’ll be honest with you, based on the “according to me” premise you’re pitching (in addition to poor formatting + wall of text)… no.

Not as thoroughly as I might have otherwise. Don’t get me wrong… I read enough to get what you’re on about, but that’s the sum of it.

Nicholas, there’s nothing to debate or discuss here if you’re throwing the lore out the window and substituting your own.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

So why would the Human Kingdoms of Tyria want any tech or engineering from the Charr?

Heh. That’s what I said about the separatist engineer. Violating his own hatred. A hypocrite. Them dirty charrs gotta die!

… Thanks for inventing guns and bombs to kill you with though.

But, hatred is rarely logical and often blind. Those that hate don’t think very deeply, so it’s entirely possible for the loons to be hypocritical charr tech using fellows, who hate charr.

You see that kind of thing in real life all the time.

Its clear that you were doing your best to selective read my most current posts scanning for key words and phrases and taking no account of context or have any understanding of key concepts and idea both in terms of the construction and their validity.

The fact that you refer to my post as a “wall of text” is indicative of the fact that you indeed have NOT read my posts in any substantial way.

This is to ensure that you can discredit me easily and freely.

Its obvious that you completely disregard all who forum contributors oppose the published official GW2 lore as writers of “fan fiction” at best and essentially consider this group to be a group of “loons”.

Its clear that your position is that what is written on behalf of the IP owner is the only truth. Being of this position proves that you are completely incapable of independent thought in regards to GW2/GW lore.

Fan fiction can be great, just as easily as it can be terrible. The same it true for all things.

However, the post about how the humans would get everything the dwarves owned doesn’t make sense as the humans and dwarves were not THAT close friends. Likewise, no human groups were in means to actually claim dwarven cities and tech, the Ebon Vangaurd was far from home or the Dwarven nations.

hey guys – stone summit faced same fate as deldimor dwarfes – the rite of great dwarf affected all dwarfes – no matter beliefs of such – so basically stone summit also became “great dwarf”

so by this the only thing that would limit “who takes dwarfen techs” is like “who cares and is closer to it”

so probably ebon vanguard would have quick access to some of dwarfen tech – but not all

Kalavier.1097:

I highly doubt the white mantle are behind the separatists who are killing charr. They don’t care about that.

True the Charr are of no concern to them, however their backing of the Separatists doesn’t necessary require them to care about the old war. The Queen has shown an interest in forging a truce with the Charr and would likely expend both manpower and resources into ensuring the truce transpire as smoothly as possible. Disrupting her efforts could soften up her defenses, since I doubt they would commit themselves to another open battle given their previous defeats.

CETheLucid.3964:

… Thanks for inventing guns and bombs to kill you with though.

Charr have been using explosives since Eye of the North (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr_Siege_Devourer).

Humanity has been using cannons since Factions (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Siege_Turtle). It isn’t said how those cannons are fired, but it usually requires something resembling gunpowder.

But sure, the Charr must have invented guns and bombs first…

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Its clear that you were doing your best to selective read my most current posts scanning for key words and phrases and taking no account of context or have any understanding of key concepts and idea both in terms of the construction and their validity.

I freely confessed I didn’t trudge very thoroughly through that wall of fan fiction. I already put that out there, guilty as charged.

Ergo I actually can’t technically discredit you on the basis of the content you’ve written. Frankly, I don’t care.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Its obvious that you completely disregard all who forum contributors oppose the published official GW2 lore as writers of “fan fiction” at best and essentially consider this group to be a group of “loons”.

You’re only a loon in the context of what I said if you’re a separatist engineer NPC.

They don’t make too much sense lore wise IMO, though it’s easy to reconcile in that they’re just blind haters and don’t think too deeply about it.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Its clear that your position is that what is written on behalf of the IP owner is the only truth. Being of this position proves that you are completely incapable of independent thought in regards to GW2/GW lore.

Oops.. I better take that last part back then. Wouldn’t want to make you look silly.

The fact that you refer to my post as a “wall of text” is indicative of the fact that you indeed have NOT read my posts in any substantial way.

This is to ensure that you can discredit me easily and freely.

I’m dismissing your claims outright on the basis that you’re pulling this out of your kitten. It’s not lore.

It’s tru lore according to Nicholas S Lin. I’m not interested. There’s no discussion to have with that.

“Guise, I wrote my own lores. Mines is right, yours and official lore is the wrong. Discuss!”

Based on the events of Guild Wars: Eye of the North it is clear that it was the Ebon Vanguard through Gwen and Keiran Thackery’s friendship and professional relationship with Vekk and Ogden Stonehealer that indicates that it is Human Ascalon that would show most interest in the legacy of the Deldrimor Dwarves.

Since humans had Mages and Engineers working at the court of the King of Human Ascalon. This is not lore I’ve made-up its implied by the writers of the the GW/GW2. Since is obvious that due to the Searing all major surviving human organisations within the Ascalon region would have moved to Ascalon City for protection.

Its clear that your understanding of Lore is extremely mis-guided and limited in nature since you have not shown proof as to why the established lore is sound.

To be specific: Pyre Fierceshot is Charr Ranger by profession. And to my knowledge and re-collection had shown no engineering or science mastery at all. And the Searing cauldrons were the gift of the Titans – agents of Abbadon. There is also no proof that the Charr were capable of smelting metals since they as a civilisation were essentially nomadic and very tribal – as seen in-game – including cut-scenes throughout the original game.

I base my extrapolations on established events as presented in Guild Wars(1) and its expanded content. My last few post I’ve been careful avoid adding anything that is not supported by established lore in is logical extrapolations.

I could have easily added my complete wish list of lore changes and adjustments. These omissions were necessary to limit the length of my current postings. And indeed those interested need do a search of my name in these forums.

And so what I have written in the forums is NOT lore according to me. Is not Lore based exclusive on my own writings.

What my GW/GW2 forum postings have always been about is illustrating what should have been a fair and balanced extension of GW(1) that respects the GW2 writers/IP owner(s) need to have balance among the playable races of Tyria.

Yours and similar in these forums have mostly been about spreading chaos and misinformation among the forum community with the message that only IP owner(s) approved texts are valid.

They couldn’t smelt metals… yet we saw them with armor, swords, and metal structures in EOTN…

Also, let’s assume Ascalon got the ‘dwarf tech’ (Note, it was explosive powder, and that was about it…) they wouldn’t be able to do anything with it because Ascalon’s resource base and industry is shattered.

ALSO the fact that the remaining dwarves that weren’t involved with the ritual at first lasted an unknown amount of time before they turned or died. They very well could’ve lasted until the Ebon Vanguard left to return to Ascalon.

Your Extrapolations don’t match the lore though, how would humanity suddenly turn into the ‘military superpower’ and ‘engineering head’, simply from having the black powder they can or can not make more of (at the time). Simply having the barrels of powder doesn’t help much.

Also, it’d only affect one nation. If Ascalon got it, then it doesn’t matter as they were so broken and tattered they couldn’t capitalize on it.

Kryta, the only other nation nearby? Maybe they could act on it better, but they are a good distance from Ascalon, and thus couldn’t realistically help them.

Our Hero group were involved in the “War In Kryta” period. And the Ebon Vanguard have operated away from the direct influence of King Adelbern and his court. They are made of many survivors of the humans war with the Charr.

It was a time of war and desperation and our group was also sympathetic to Prince Rurik’s mission to take as much of his homeland with him into Kryta and paid the price with his life. Thus the play character along with the player group would have shared the Dwarven legacy with Kryta through their friendship of Salma and her Shining Blade. They was an likely unofficial alliance between the Ebon Vanguard and Kryta as a result of this. This is a logical extrapolation.

But of course the lore writers ignored this to destroy humanity in the two Kingdoms (-since we do not know if the player-character and the hero group had any contact with Orr before the Cataclysm). In the course of the 200 odd years in between.

Remember all the hero group would have done anything and everything to strengthen humanity in Tyria. And the Deldrimor Dwarven Legacy will go a long way towards that.

How would the ‘hero group’ get the black powder or other tech?

How would they understand it? Who would explain it? How would they ‘share’ the knowledge.

This is a group of adventurers, not scientists, engineers, or brilliant minds.

I’m sorry, but I played pretty much everything (bar a chunk of PVP) in GW1… and I don’t see where you are getting how humanity should’ve become the major military and tech force in the world.

Ascalon was clinging to the last shreds of life, Kryta was trying to rebuild it’s government…

This group included Vekk an Asuran uber-genious engineer+scientist and Ogden is at least an able Engineer among the Deldrimor Dwarves. And both Kryta and human-Ascalon had 200 years to assimulate the technology for both military and civilian applications.

It would be the join effort of the best minds Kryta and human Ascalon had available during the course of the time between the end of the War in Kryta till the events of the current game.

The hero group mere delievered the technology for Kryta and the Ascalonian survivors to reverse-engineer all the technology and engineering know-how that could have been salvaged – NOT just gun-powder. For starters mining tech and smelting, refining of metals and chemicals. Dwarfs are known for all this stuff and more. All of which were transferred for the exclusive use of humanity and their allies.

Who said Ogden is an engineer? He was a priest, not an explosives expert.

Who said either actually went with the ‘heroes’ anywhere in the lore afterwards?

Gwen obviously becomes the captain of the Ebon Vanguard shortly after (a year or so), it’s likely the others went to other things as well.

Again, who would teach the humans all the secrets? How could Ascalon even capitalize on it, given how their resource base and population was almost entirely destroyed? Note, the ability to make Deldirmor metals? Lost until just recently when a Norn found it again.

If no dwarf smiths are alive/not stone (or willing to share secrets), who teaches humanity?

Again, “All of which were transferred for the exclusive use of humanity” Proof. Dwarves and humans were not THAT AWESOME GREAT PALS in lore. Trading buddies who let each other through their lands at best for terms of nations. Obviously they’d be nicer to the one group which helped them retake their capital, but to the entire race? I’m unsure.

Almost all of the Deldrimor dwarves were turned to stone with the ritual, bar Odgen and a few others, and the stone summit. That means the bulk of their engineers and smiths aren’t going to be helping humanity figure out secrets.

I still see no explanation for how or WHY humanity would gain all this knowledge.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I do see on some criteria it does not match. I also point out it doesn’t matter, because it’s the right of the property holder to do such. You can explain all you want, but until you can prove to me it’s illegal or wrong to do so, I won’t entertain it.

This is why I’m trolling you.

And at least you admitted it.

When have I not?

By hiding behind the copyright laws, all you are doing is approving of this type of thing. I don’t know why you can’t separate “legal” and “wrong” in your mind.

Because some things are “illegal” and are not “wrong” by my internal moral code. I won’t go into details, but it stands to reason there are thus things which are “legal” and are “wrong”. But they are, in fact, two separate things to consider. Lastly, most importantly of all, there is a very specific detail which you have failed to grasp spectacularly in your trolling:

Perhaps I wasn’t being specific. I meant that, based on your arguments, you see little difference between legal and right. Why the 180 now?

Just because you don’t like something, doesn’t make it wrong, or if you like something doesn’t make it right.

True…your point?

I hope you follow me on that score. You don’t like what they did with the lore? Fine, that’s okay, but it’s not inherently “wrong” to do that sort of thing. It’s an artistic decision, which doesn’t have a “right or wrong” the same way, oh, an engineering decision does, or a mathematical equation can be true or false.

It’s not “wrong”. You just don’t approve.

That kind of unfettered relativity is irresponsible. While a phrase like my “one man’s terrorist is another man’s patriot” is a solid point, it would be an injustice to simply leave it at that. Research all sides of the story and find out what is equal and unequal in that situation, and draw conclusions based off of that.

Obsidian.1328:

You are part of the problem.

No, no, neighbor. There’s where you’re wrong. It’s the only sane, and mature, solution.

Not really. The Ascalon fiasco is merely a microcosm of what’s wrong with mmo development in the whole industry, that’s the reason I troll here. Anytime you’re making large-scale decisions/changes for a game with monetization being the overriding reason for doing so, you should step back and ask yourself if you’re doing the right thing. GW2 as a whole is a textbook exercise on how to take an existing niche game with a strong following and try and turn it into a cash cow. They exploited the old game to make bank, it’s starkly evident in almost every change made. Is that legal? Yes. Is it right? Hardly. This topic just happens to be one that is overly obvious about it when it comes to the lore.

If you don’t choose to call them out on that, great. But don’t get so defensive when I say your apathy encourages the very thing which is destroying high-standard mmo’s out there from being developed.

Dustfinger.9510:

Obsidian.1328:

That humanity took it from someone doesn’t have anything to do with my point. And yes, the Charr currently own it. But, every Ascalonian alive can claim it was taken from them. You seem to think cultural identity only matters to the time in which you are alive. All those npc’s kitten ily shouting “For Ascalon” aren’t shouting it for their own, small time-frame of existence. They are shouting it because the writer was trying to tap into the basic, timeless, tribal roots we all share as human beings and using that to evoke a sentimentality about a piece of land in the game. The writer was trying to endear Ascalon to the PC. And not just the peeps, but the kingdom as well. If a player doesn’t give two farts about it, then fine, carry on. But don’t try and say it’s not there…it is.

Your second line, I have no idea what that means. There’s plenty of space to add new races and such. Wth are you talking about?

that’s no problem. it can be there. It is still a double standard. Now if we can agree that it is based on a double standard and that it is still there, then we really have no disagreement.

The second line was directly referencing the claim that my arguement left no room for other races. But my logic doesn’t hinge on that reasoning.

How is that a double standard?

Obsidian.1328:

Dustfinger.9510:

Obsidian.1328:

That humanity took it from someone doesn’t have anything to do with my point. And yes, the Charr currently own it. But, every Ascalonian alive can claim it was taken from them. You seem to think cultural identity only matters to the time in which you are alive. All those npc’s kitten ily shouting “For Ascalon” aren’t shouting it for their own, small time-frame of existence. They are shouting it because the writer was trying to tap into the basic, timeless, tribal roots we all share as human beings and using that to evoke a sentimentality about a piece of land in the game. The writer was trying to endear Ascalon to the PC. And not just the peeps, but the kingdom as well. If a player doesn’t give two farts about it, then fine, carry on. But don’t try and say it’s not there…it is.

Your second line, I have no idea what that means. There’s plenty of space to add new races and such. Wth are you talking about?

that’s no problem. it can be there. It is still a double standard. Now if we can agree that it is based on a double standard and that it is still there, then we really have no disagreement.

The second line was directly referencing the claim that my arguement left no room for other races. But my logic doesn’t hinge on that reasoning.

How is that a double standard?

replace “ascalonians” and “humans” with “charr” and it makes the same point in charr favor and is no less true. The double standard comes when one is championed over the other using the same measurments.

double standard

noun

1.

any code or set of principles containing different provisions for one group of people than for another,

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/double+standard?s=t

Obsidian.1328:

Perhaps I wasn’t being specific. I meant that, based on your arguments, you see little difference between legal and right. Why the 180 now?

That’s not a 180, you’re just not paying attention close enough. There is a definite distinction between “having the right” and “being right”. One is legal in its implications, the other is moral.

That kind of unfettered relativity is irresponsible. While a phrase like my “one man’s terrorist is another man’s patriot” is a solid point, it would be an injustice to simply leave it at that. Research all sides of the story and find out what is equal and unequal in that situation, and draw conclusions based off of that.

If you are admittedly trolling, your points don’t have to make sense and don’t deserve the attention to be researched. They’re contrary for the sake of being contrary, at best.

If you’re not admittedly trolling, it still doesn’t matter much. What a lot of your complaints do boil down to is “I don’t like the way they took the lore”. Again, that’s fine. What isn’t fine is to paint it as a crime or travesty unarguably.

Obsidian.1328:

You are part of the problem.

No, no, neighbor. There’s where you’re wrong. It’s the only sane, and mature, solution.

Not really. The Ascalon fiasco is merely a microcosm of what’s wrong with mmo development in the whole industry, that’s the reason I troll here. Anytime you’re making large-scale decisions/changes for a game with monetization being the overriding reason for doing so, you should step back and ask yourself if you’re doing the right thing. GW2 as a whole is a textbook exercise on how to take an existing niche game with a strong following and try and turn it into a cash cow. They exploited the old game to make bank, it’s starkly evident in almost every change made. Is that legal? Yes. Is it right? Hardly. This topic just happens to be one that is overly obvious about it when it comes to the lore.

And I have no personal objections to them doing that. Other games have done it successfully and at least interestingly (Magic: The Gathering notably, Dungeons and Dragons as well).

Again, if I don’t like it, I don’t let myself be a patron of their work. This is simple.

If you don’t choose to call them out on that, great. But don’t get so defensive when I say your apathy encourages the very thing which is destroying high-standard mmo’s out there from being developed.

I choose to have some perspective and realize this thing, this lack of “high standard MMO games”, isn’t going to affect my life. I have a job, I have a family, and I have friends. I have a game I like to play in my off time, which is one of about fifteen which are vying for a slice of free time, all of them moderately decent.

If one of them is no longer fun, entertaining, or is more of a chore? Yes, I got other choices to go play. I’m not paying $X a month to play this game, so why wouldn’t I be okay to just set it aside for a time if it’s not fun? I did it to the original when it became Grind Wars: Titles.

But overall? If any particular game just isn’t any good I’ll just shelve it or throw it in a box and move on. What’s the point in needing to hold companies “responsible” when it’s not really going to do more for my life than keep giving me a distraction from what duties I have?

Kalavier.1097:

Again, who would teach the humans all the secrets? How could Ascalon even capitalize on it, given how their resource base and population was almost entirely destroyed? Note, the ability to make Deldirmor metals? Lost until just recently when a Norn found it again.

I still see no explanation for how or WHY humanity would gain all this knowledge.

Really?

Odgen Stonehealer is both a Deldrimor Dwarf and a healer by profession. This gives him at least two skill sets. But only one is relevant here, other than as a healer that would also make him a learned scholar. As an obviously highly educated member of his race he can read and write his own language thus all and any Dwarven texts can be translated through him.

And finally as a result of him take part in the slayer of “The Great Destroyer” he would have as a result dedicated the rest of his life to study its origins and all related artifacts. As a good friend to Gwen and Kieran he could see in her and her partner the fire to make things right. Thus he would have done what he could for humanity – starting with assisting in the recovery of the Deldrimor Legacy.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Kalavier.1097:

Again, who would teach the humans all the secrets? How could Ascalon even capitalize on it, given how their resource base and population was almost entirely destroyed? Note, the ability to make Deldirmor metals? Lost until just recently when a Norn found it again.

I still see no explanation for how or WHY humanity would gain all this knowledge.

Really?

Odgen Stonehealer is both a Deldrimor Dwarf and a healer by profession. This gives him at least two skill sets. But only one is relevant here, other than as a healer that would also make him a learned scholar. As an obviously highly educated member of his race he can read and write his own language thus all and any Dwarven texts can be translated through him.

And finally as a result of him take part in the slayer of “The Great Destroyer” he would have as a result dedicated the rest of his life to study its origins and all related artifacts. As a good friend to Gwen and Kieran he could see in her and her partner the fire to make things right. Thus he would have done what he could for humanity – starting with assisting in the recovery of the Deldrimor Legacy.

A: Being a Deldrimor Dwarf means nothing besides he can read the language. If he understood how to make the black powder or Deldrimor steel, he would’ve shared that. Hint, it’s obvious he doesn’t as it’s only recently (as in, personal story time) that Norn discovered the method of making the steel again.
B: Knowing how to read blacksmithing blueprints doesn’t mean he can teach humans to craft the things correctly.
C: Who says he dedicated his life to studying the great destroyer? The Great destroyer, which I’ll remind you, was killed and nobody suspected the giant statue was infact Primordus’s head. Who says he was great friends of Gwen and Kieran? Who says he met Kieran at all? Friendly doesn’t mean best friends for life.

Dustfinger.9510:

Obsidian.1328:

Dustfinger.9510:

Obsidian.1328:

That humanity took it from someone doesn’t have anything to do with my point. And yes, the Charr currently own it. But, every Ascalonian alive can claim it was taken from them. You seem to think cultural identity only matters to the time in which you are alive. All those npc’s kitten ily shouting “For Ascalon” aren’t shouting it for their own, small time-frame of existence. They are shouting it because the writer was trying to tap into the basic, timeless, tribal roots we all share as human beings and using that to evoke a sentimentality about a piece of land in the game. The writer was trying to endear Ascalon to the PC. And not just the peeps, but the kingdom as well. If a player doesn’t give two farts about it, then fine, carry on. But don’t try and say it’s not there…it is.

Your second line, I have no idea what that means. There’s plenty of space to add new races and such. Wth are you talking about?

that’s no problem. it can be there. It is still a double standard. Now if we can agree that it is based on a double standard and that it is still there, then we really have no disagreement.

The second line was directly referencing the claim that my arguement left no room for other races. But my logic doesn’t hinge on that reasoning.

How is that a double standard?

replace “ascalonians” and “humans” with “charr” and it makes the same point in charr favor and is no less true. The double standard comes when one is championed over the other using the same measurments.

double standard

noun

1.

any code or set of principles containing different provisions for one group of people than for another,

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/double+standard?s=t

You’re forgetting the Charr weren’t from Ascalon until last year. Until then, my statements aren’t a double standard because you can’t replace one name with another and still have it hold true. Now of course you can. But that’s not my fault. ANet created the double standard with this when they changed the “homeland” thing, not me. The double standard now is ANet trying present any human as wrong or evil who thinks Ascalon should be fought for by Ascalons. It’s rather silly you don’t see that.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s not a 180, you’re just not paying attention close enough. There is a definite distinction between “having the right” and “being right”. One is legal in its implications, the other is moral.

That’s what I’ve been saying…

If you are admittedly trolling, your points don’t have to make sense and don’t deserve the attention to be researched. They’re contrary for the sake of being contrary, at best.

If you’re not admittedly trolling, it still doesn’t matter much. What a lot of your complaints do boil down to is “I don’t like the way they took the lore”. Again, that’s fine. What isn’t fine is to paint it as a crime or travesty unarguably.

Troll or not troll, the arguments still stand. The point of this thread is to argue your point…

Again, if I don’t like it, I don’t let myself be a patron of their work. This is simple.

That’s fine if you want to do that, knock yourself out. But don’t think that your passive resistance, or whatever you want to call it, is going to change things. There are legions of gamers out there who only play these games because they are pretty, or easy, or unchallenging, or even trite. Turn your head if you want, but I’d rather barter for something better. If you don’t like that, too bad.

I choose to have some perspective and realize this thing, this lack of “high standard MMO games”, isn’t going to affect my life. I have a job, I have a family, and I have friends. I have a game I like to play in my off time, which is one of about fifteen which are vying for a slice of free time, all of them moderately decent.

If one of them is no longer fun, entertaining, or is more of a chore? Yes, I got other choices to go play. I’m not paying $X a month to play this game, so why wouldn’t I be okay to just set it aside for a time if it’s not fun? I did it to the original when it became Grind Wars: Titles.

You do realize that the same devs that turned GW1 into GW:Titles are the same devs for GW2, right?

But overall? If any particular game just isn’t any good I’ll just shelve it or throw it in a box and move on. What’s the point in needing to hold companies “responsible” when it’s not really going to do more for my life than keep giving me a distraction from what duties I have?

If it doesn’t really matter to you, why are you here?

Obsidian.1328:

But overall? If any particular game just isn’t any good I’ll just shelve it or throw it in a box and move on. What’s the point in needing to hold companies “responsible” when it’s not really going to do more for my life than keep giving me a distraction from what duties I have?

If it doesn’t really matter to you, why are you here?

Why are you?

Obsidian.1328:

You’re forgetting the Charr weren’t from Ascalon until last year. Until then, my statements aren’t a double standard because you can’t replace one name with another and still have it hold true. Now of course you can. But that’s not my fault. ANet created the double standard with this when they changed the “homeland” thing, not me. The double standard now is ANet trying present any human as wrong or evil who thinks Ascalon should be fought for by Ascalons. It’s rather silly you don’t see that.

You are forgetting that until last year, we had no clear idea of why the Charr fought the Ascalon humans, and who humanity had taken land from (as clearly stated in thei manuscripts.

The thing is, they aren’t presenting any human who wants Ascalon back as being evil. Only extremists who would kill humans as well as charr to keep their ‘freedom’ and war going.

Proof of humans outside that group being treated as evil? I don’t see any. Now if you could provide that maybe you could convince people of that… but I’ve seen nothing supporting it as a world/out of world view. Maybe a charr here or there views Rurik as a villian, but overall the world doesn’t.

Obsidian.1328:

Dustfinger.9510:

Obsidian.1328:

Dustfinger.9510:

Obsidian.1328:

That humanity took it from someone doesn’t have anything to do with my point. And yes, the Charr currently own it. But, every Ascalonian alive can claim it was taken from them. You seem to think cultural identity only matters to the time in which you are alive. All those npc’s kitten ily shouting “For Ascalon” aren’t shouting it for their own, small time-frame of existence. They are shouting it because the writer was trying to tap into the basic, timeless, tribal roots we all share as human beings and using that to evoke a sentimentality about a piece of land in the game. The writer was trying to endear Ascalon to the PC. And not just the peeps, but the kingdom as well. If a player doesn’t give two farts about it, then fine, carry on. But don’t try and say it’s not there…it is.

Your second line, I have no idea what that means. There’s plenty of space to add new races and such. Wth are you talking about?

that’s no problem. it can be there. It is still a double standard. Now if we can agree that it is based on a double standard and that it is still there, then we really have no disagreement.

The second line was directly referencing the claim that my arguement left no room for other races. But my logic doesn’t hinge on that reasoning.

How is that a double standard?

replace “ascalonians” and “humans” with “charr” and it makes the same point in charr favor and is no less true. The double standard comes when one is championed over the other using the same measurments.

double standard

noun

1.

any code or set of principles containing different provisions for one group of people than for another,

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/double+standard?s=t

You’re forgetting the Charr weren’t from Ascalon until last year. Until then, my statements aren’t a double standard because you can’t replace one name with another and still have it hold true. Now of course you can. But that’s not my fault. ANet created the double standard with this when they changed the “homeland” thing, not me. The double standard now is ANet trying present any human as wrong or evil who thinks Ascalon should be fought for by Ascalons. It’s rather silly you don’t see that.

I’m not forgetting that. I fully acknowlege that that is when the charr became the ones that humanity took it from. But we knew humanity took it from somebody since the beginning. So why champion humanity over anybody that humanity took it from? A-net didn’t create that double standard. They told us from the beginning that humanity took it.

So even without knowing that it was the charr, it is still a double standard since we can replace “Ascalonian” and “humanity” with “the ones humanity took it from”. feel free to ignore that it ended up being the charr. Championing humanity is a double standard if you don’t equally champion “the ones humanity took it from”. But then you wouldn’t be able to ‘champion’ humanity.

edit: and even still, blaming a-net for creating the double standard doesn’t eliminate it. It only confirms it’s existence.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obsidian.1328:

But overall? If any particular game just isn’t any good I’ll just shelve it or throw it in a box and move on. What’s the point in needing to hold companies “responsible” when it’s not really going to do more for my life than keep giving me a distraction from what duties I have?

If it doesn’t really matter to you, why are you here?

Why are you?

To shame ANet.

“Shame on them for going back and filling in a completely blank part of lore, explaining the reasons for this race to so viciously attack Ascalon and humanity!”

“Shame on them for actually have the bad guys HAVE A REASON.”

Kalavier.1097:

Obsidian.1328:

You’re forgetting the Charr weren’t from Ascalon until last year. Until then, my statements aren’t a double standard because you can’t replace one name with another and still have it hold true. Now of course you can. But that’s not my fault. ANet created the double standard with this when they changed the “homeland” thing, not me. The double standard now is ANet trying present any human as wrong or evil who thinks Ascalon should be fought for by Ascalons. It’s rather silly you don’t see that.

You are forgetting that until last year, we had no clear idea of why the Charr fought the Ascalon humans, and who humanity had taken land from (as clearly stated in thei manuscripts.

The thing is, they aren’t presenting any human who wants Ascalon back as being evil. Only extremists who would kill humans as well as charr to keep their ‘freedom’ and war going.

Proof of humans outside that group being treated as evil? I don’t see any. Now if you could provide that maybe you could convince people of that… but I’ve seen nothing supporting it as a world/out of world view. Maybe a charr here or there views Rurik as a villian, but overall the world doesn’t.

Historically, the Charr fought everyone they came across simply because they existed. It’s clear humanity took Ascalon from the Charr since Proph, that’s not an issue.

Perhaps “evil” is extreme on my part, but certainly “wrong” fits. When a Renown Heart requires you to drag a Separatist out of his home and beat him to death, that’s a problem. There’s really no middle ground for this in ANet’s eyes; you’re either a warmongering terrorist who will kill innocents to win back your land, or you’re a civilized “brother” of Tyria who knows better than to stay mired in the past. What humans, if any, are there in GW2 who view Ascalon as human land that ANet portrays as “good”?

Dustfinger.9510:

Obsidian.1328:

Dustfinger.9510:

Obsidian.1328:

Dustfinger.9510:

Obsidian.1328:

That humanity took it from someone doesn’t have anything to do with my point. And yes, the Charr currently own it. But, every Ascalonian alive can claim it was taken from them. You seem to think cultural identity only matters to the time in which you are alive. All those npc’s kitten ily shouting “For Ascalon” aren’t shouting it for their own, small time-frame of existence. They are shouting it because the writer was trying to tap into the basic, timeless, tribal roots we all share as human beings and using that to evoke a sentimentality about a piece of land in the game. The writer was trying to endear Ascalon to the PC. And not just the peeps, but the kingdom as well. If a player doesn’t give two farts about it, then fine, carry on. But don’t try and say it’s not there…it is.

Your second line, I have no idea what that means. There’s plenty of space to add new races and such. Wth are you talking about?

that’s no problem. it can be there. It is still a double standard. Now if we can agree that it is based on a double standard and that it is still there, then we really have no disagreement.

The second line was directly referencing the claim that my arguement left no room for other races. But my logic doesn’t hinge on that reasoning.

How is that a double standard?

replace “ascalonians” and “humans” with “charr” and it makes the same point in charr favor and is no less true. The double standard comes when one is championed over the other using the same measurments.

double standard

noun

1.

any code or set of principles containing different provisions for one group of people than for another,

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/double+standard?s=t

You’re forgetting the Charr weren’t from Ascalon until last year. Until then, my statements aren’t a double standard because you can’t replace one name with another and still have it hold true. Now of course you can. But that’s not my fault. ANet created the double standard with this when they changed the “homeland” thing, not me. The double standard now is ANet trying present any human as wrong or evil who thinks Ascalon should be fought for by Ascalons. It’s rather silly you don’t see that.

I’m not forgetting that. I fully acknowlege that that is when the charr became the ones that humanity took it from. But we knew humanity took it from somebody since the beginning. So why champion humanity over anybody that humanity took it from? A-net didn’t create that double standard. They told us from the beginning that humanity took it.

So even without knowing that it was the charr, it is still a double standard since we can replace “Ascalonian” and “humanity” with “the ones humanity took it from”. feel free to ignore that it ended up being the charr. Championing humanity is a double standard if you don’t equally champion “the ones humanity took it from”. But then you wouldn’t be able to ‘champion’ humanity.

edit: and even still, blaming a-net for creating the double standard doesn’t eliminate it. It only confirms it’s existence.

No, Charr were always the one’s that humans took it from. The contention is the homeland. Even in Proph, Ascalon was considered the Charr’s “southern borders”. EotN outright states the Charr homeland is north of there. Saying that was simply the humans’ point-of-view on the issue is a huge cop-out, for which there is no evidence of at all until some dude just up and “decides” it’s the case now. Using that old b.s. technique of in-game bias to enact a cultural paradigm shift is not new, and quite frankly I’m surprised people accept it so readily. I suppose you think Glint was always an ED champion, and not a separate and unique individual whose presence had nothing to do with them?

At least try to view the history without GW2 blinders on.

Kalavier.1097:

“Shame on them for going back and filling in a completely blank part of lore, explaining the reasons for this race to so viciously attack Ascalon and humanity!”

“Shame on them for actually have the bad guys HAVE A REASON.”

What are you talking about?

Obsidian.1328:

Perhaps “evil” is extreme on my part, but certainly “wrong” fits. When a Renown Heart requires you to drag a Separatist out of his home and beat him to death, that’s a problem. There’s really no middle ground for this in ANet’s eyes; you’re either a warmongering terrorist who will kill innocents to win back your land, or you’re a civilized “brother” of Tyria who knows better than to stay mired in the past. What humans, if any, are there in GW2 who view Ascalon as human land that ANet portrays as “good”?

IIRC, the Separatist comes out of the home and instantly attacks you. Self defense. Like many groups, they started off good then the people who just want to kill got in charge. Still, there is a difference between viewing Ascalon as human land but admitting that they need a peace treaty/wanting to LIVE without constant war, and going “kitten YOU JENNAH. kitten YOU CHARR. WE WANT WAR ENDLESSLY!”

Aka, it’s more like a split between those who are stubborn to the point of being unable to let go (Like Adelbern), vs those who range from hatred to neutrality, but are smart enough to see bigger threats and accept peace, however short.

Also, there are still some npcs in the treaty area and Ebonhawke who dislike the Charr, even hate them, but are willing to set it aside PURELY because of the Dragon threat.

Humans of Ebonhawke view Ascalon as human land, and they have a good chunk (all of Fields of Ruin) for humans. Ascalon settlement is the only other town of Ascalon people (besides Rurikton) and they are more concerned about the Centaurs, though some are convinced that someday they’ll reclaim Ascalon from the Charr. Those aren’t presented as evil or wrong, just stubborn. The rest are Krytans, Elonians, or Canthans (fewer of the latter two obviously) who don’t care, or see obsessing over it as foolish (quote, the minister going “The searing is ancient history, get over it.”). I’ve never seen or heard about this “Ascalon for humans is wrong and/or evil!” thing, outside the “This group(Separatists) is clearly a bunch of murdering loonies.”

So I suppose you are fine with Centaurs, who were confirmed even in GW1 (at least nightfall) to be forcibly removed from their lands, and want revenge and payback? It’s basically the exact same situation. Only change is Charr in GW2 are shown/admitted to have both heroes AND villians. Hell, Charr are around that openly disagree with the ‘official’ tale of Rurik and stormcaller.

Obsidian.1328:

Kalavier.1097:

“Shame on them for going back and filling in a completely blank part of lore, explaining the reasons for this race to so viciously attack Ascalon and humanity!”

“Shame on them for actually have the bad guys HAVE A REASON.”

What are you talking about?

How you’ve been sounding. You said your purpose is to ‘shame’ Anet, and all you’ve been doing really is complaining that they went and put in information into an almost entirely blank area of the lore, the Charr motivations.