Disappointed that scarlet died.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: Alice.8694

Alice.8694

I know, not the most popular opinion I know but hear me out.

Killing Scarlet truly feels like a fan-appeasement cop out. Players demanded you ditch scarlet and get on with the dragons and then that happens in that order, practically in the same cutscene.

But whether it was planned from the start or not that scarlet would bow out here really doesn’t change the fact that the story just wasted months of build up on one character to kill her off before she gained the chance to become a three dimensional character. Forever will she now remain a two dimensional character with a lot of negative player sentiment.

Here’s just one of many examples of the things you could have done to advance scarlet’s character.
Our heroes opt to imprison scarlet instead of killing her. The first chapter of the second season would see scarlet imprisoned in an impenetrably force-field within Rata-sum.

We then get to learn about the connection between mordremoth and scarlet and attempt to sever the connection. And succeeding scarlet is reverted to Ceara… Who from then on dedicates her life to trying to make amends for all the stuff she brought down. And failing due to the sheer justified hatred for her. These could have been optional side quests in the living story going forward. Giving the player choice to shun her or assist her (with equal reward).

This story seriously lacks supporting secondary stories and this was an opportunity to create one.

Alternatively you could have had a vote… Right at the point where you kill Scarlet… Given the players the choice to imprison or kill her. Perhaps with negative consequences for choosing the easier option down the line. And played out the remainder of the cutscene on the 18th.

Instead, Scarlet is dead… A grotesque sacrifice to the easy route and player appeasement.

I realize that there are times when killing a villain is the only option. I just think that at this moment, this was a wasted opportunity… Sadly one of many.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Killing Scarlet truly feels like a fan-appeasement cop out. Players demanded you ditch scarlet and get on with the dragons and then that happens in that order, practically in the same cutscene.

To be fair, however, Scott McGough said this would be the plan since August – that after Scarlet we’ll have a dragon to face; that she was just a filler between dragons and that there will be future filler arcs between each dragon. So that players don’t go “kill this dragon, kill that dragon, now kill the dragon over there!”

Interview in question

But whether it was planned from the start or not that scarlet would bow out here really doesn’t change the fact that the story just wasted months of build up on one character to kill her off before she gained the chance to become a three dimensional character. Forever will she now remain a two dimensional character with a lot of negative player sentiment.

Gotta agree here. Really wish they did a lot more with her. But they didn’t, and now they can’t except in post-mortem which isn’t the same.

I realize that there are times when killing a villain is the only option. I just think that at this moment, this was a wasted opportunity… Sadly one of many.

I think killing Scarlet was good – having her imprisoned… the mere thought of it gives me poor taste, simply because “she’s someone who could do so much, who could convince just about anyone to work for her, but all of a sudden she’s helpless” feels off – though the final instance where killing Scarlet is spoonfed to you (just try afking that fight and you’ll see!). It’s just that the “final four chapters” happened a bit too fast, with still too much idiot ball handling on the good guys’ part and too little given to us (or rather, too much too short – everything we learned was from Edge of the Mists; Origins of Madness gave some good subliminal exposition and the final cinematic was cool but tbh, Escape and Battle held no storytelling to it).

Rather than her lair being empty, we could have come across those holograms from A Study in Scarlet then, perhaps even some interaction between us and Scarlet-via-hologram (like Vorpp). We saw four X’s in her lair but saw nothing come of three of them – maybe we could have deduced the wrong target, thinking she’d go after say, the Grove instead. Learn the wrong goal and then find out that no one was holding the idiot ball but we just made a mistake.

But aw well. What’s lost, is lost.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: Shiren.9532

Shiren.9532

She had a chance. She was the driving force behind the story for over a year and players hated it. She had a chance.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

She couldn’t stay alive for the simple reason that she isn’t that insane like we think. If she would have been in prison, either she would have died for mysterious reasons or we would have to think about the things she did.

With everytime I am in the final instance and look at the informations there I feel sad for several reasons and the worst is the cutscene starting with her face. All the studies, all that work, just to hope for success, because it is not finished the moment she dies (like a breaking heart frozen in time). Please note that she seems helpless, but if she wanted to back out, she could do it at any time she wanted to (she has an one person teleport). She protected the drill to her end!

We saw four X’s in her lair but saw nothing come of three of them – maybe we could have deduced the wrong target, thinking she’d go after say, the Grove instead.

We saw the pact actively involved in this fight, even if it’s no dragon fight. The players were drafted to their orders to defend lion’s arch (while I expected lionsguard recruitment).

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

(edited by Horst Hortensie.5420)

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: Alice.8694

Alice.8694

Please note that she seems helpless, but if she wanted to back out, she could do it at any time she wanted to (she has an one person teleport). She protected the drill to her end!

You aren’t remotely looking at the issue from the correct view point. Essentially Scarlet is indoctrinated by Mordremoth. When you take that into account, none of her actions are of her own free will but the will of Mordremoth. Essentially Ceara is a victim of the dragons, just like every single branded charr in the dragonbrand. (For example)

When you take this into consideration, we are nothing but murderers. And in our hasty attempt to stop what she was planning. We murdered her, an unnessecary action in the grand scheme of things. Because killing her did not stop mordremoth from awakening.

So remember that our heroes of this story are nothing more than murderers. We murdered a Sylvari who wasn’t in control of her actions. You would not murder a patient in a mental hospital because they cannot stop themselves from acting up. You would seek a way to help them. Did our heroes even try? It never for one moment crossed their minds.

Perhaps unintentionally… Arenanet have painted our little band of heroes as heartless murderers. Because it was the heroic thing to do, to stop Scarlet… Right? Or just the easy route, the path of least resistance. Some heroes we are.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: Egon Vidar.9125

Egon Vidar.9125

Please note that she seems helpless, but if she wanted to back out, she could do it at any time she wanted to (she has an one person teleport). She protected the drill to her end!

You aren’t remotely looking at the issue from the correct view point. Essentially Scarlet is indoctrinated by Mordremoth. When you take that into account, none of her actions are of her own free will but the will of Mordremoth. Essentially Ceara is a victim of the dragons, just like every single branded charr in the dragonbrand. (For example)

When you take this into consideration, we are nothing but murderers.
[snip]

So remember that our heroes of this story are nothing more than murderers. We murdered a Sylvari who wasn’t in control of her actions. You would not murder a patient in a mental hospital because they cannot stop themselves from acting up. You would seek a way to help them. Did our heroes even try? It never for one moment crossed their minds.

Perhaps unintentionally… Arenanet have painted our little band of heroes as heartless murderers. Because it was the heroic thing to do, to stop Scarlet… Right? Or just the easy route, the path of least resistance. Some heroes we are.

So which is it?
Is she like a branded, or is she like a mental patient? Because those two things are totally not alike at all. I certainly don’t feel like a murderer when I kill a branded charr, and putting slavering, near-mindless, malevolent dragon minions on the same level as mental patients (as your comparison does) has an insane amount of unfortunate implications anyway.

She is out of her head, to some extent or another, and something is influencing her, but to what degree? We don’t really know how deep it runs, both her insanity and the influence, but either way, she is either an agent of destruction or is destroying of her own. Neither is acceptable. She dropped her Alliances on LA and looked down from her drill and smiled. Thousands died. And I don’t even begin to think a person with Scarlet’s resources is the kind of person you can incarcerate easily and, I doubt, at all.

Scarlet’s life is not worth the lives of potentially thousands more innocent people.

From my perspective, it was less of a cold-blooded “heartless” murder and more of a mercy killing. Mercy for Scarlet and anyone who would encounter her.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: Alice.8694

Alice.8694

Please note that she seems helpless, but if she wanted to back out, she could do it at any time she wanted to (she has an one person teleport). She protected the drill to her end!

You aren’t remotely looking at the issue from the correct view point. Essentially Scarlet is indoctrinated by Mordremoth. When you take that into account, none of her actions are of her own free will but the will of Mordremoth. Essentially Ceara is a victim of the dragons, just like every single branded charr in the dragonbrand. (For example)

When you take this into consideration, we are nothing but murderers.
[snip]

So remember that our heroes of this story are nothing more than murderers. We murdered a Sylvari who wasn’t in control of her actions. You would not murder a patient in a mental hospital because they cannot stop themselves from acting up. You would seek a way to help them. Did our heroes even try? It never for one moment crossed their minds.

Perhaps unintentionally… Arenanet have painted our little band of heroes as heartless murderers. Because it was the heroic thing to do, to stop Scarlet… Right? Or just the easy route, the path of least resistance. Some heroes we are.

So which is it?
Is she like a branded, or is she like a mental patient? Because those two things are totally not alike at all. I certainly don’t feel like a murderer when I kill a branded charr, and putting slavering, near-mindless, malevolent dragon minions on the same level as mental patients (as your comparison does) has an insane amount of unfortunate implications anyway.

She is out of her head, to some extent or another, and something is influencing her, but to what degree? We don’t really know how deep it runs, both her insanity and the influence, but either way, she is either an agent of destruction or is destroying of her own. Neither is acceptable. She dropped her Alliances on LA and looked down from her drill and smiled. Thousands died. And I don’t even begin to think a person with Scarlet’s resources is the kind of person you can incarcerate easily and, I doubt, at all.

Scarlet’s life is not worth the lives of potentially thousands more innocent people.

From my perspective, it was less of a cold-blooded “heartless” murder and more of a mercy killing. Mercy for Scarlet and anyone who would encounter her.

While it is nice rationalizing this after the fact…

The point I am making is no one tried and that the lack of trying or caring is not heroic.

Our heroes knew that entering Omadd’s device fundamentally messed her up, but their response was still “kill” not “save”. It doesn’t matter if it were possible to save her or not. Perhaps she was branded and beyond saving. But what if she were the other, crazy and in need of help. Why was that idea, considering the world we are in, never once entertained.

So we only save those who we already know are savable and never try to save those that are not?

Hell, why didn’t a brave Sylvari step up to sit in Omadd’s device and try and find out exactly what Scarlet saw. The Asura could have easily provided restraints and would have happily experimented.
Or hell… Just ask the pale tree… Because apparently she already knows something.

For heroes… We sure didn’t try very hard.

(edited by Alice.8694)

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: class.4802

class.4802

Please note that she seems helpless, but if she wanted to back out, she could do it at any time she wanted to (she has an one person teleport). She protected the drill to her end!

You aren’t remotely looking at the issue from the correct view point. Essentially Scarlet is indoctrinated by Mordremoth. When you take that into account, none of her actions are of her own free will but the will of Mordremoth. Essentially Ceara is a victim of the dragons, just like every single branded charr in the dragonbrand. (For example)

When you take this into consideration, we are nothing but murderers.
[snip]

So remember that our heroes of this story are nothing more than murderers. We murdered a Sylvari who wasn’t in control of her actions. You would not murder a patient in a mental hospital because they cannot stop themselves from acting up. You would seek a way to help them. Did our heroes even try? It never for one moment crossed their minds.

Perhaps unintentionally… Arenanet have painted our little band of heroes as heartless murderers. Because it was the heroic thing to do, to stop Scarlet… Right? Or just the easy route, the path of least resistance. Some heroes we are.

So which is it?
Is she like a branded, or is she like a mental patient? Because those two things are totally not alike at all. I certainly don’t feel like a murderer when I kill a branded charr, and putting slavering, near-mindless, malevolent dragon minions on the same level as mental patients (as your comparison does) has an insane amount of unfortunate implications anyway.

She is out of her head, to some extent or another, and something is influencing her, but to what degree? We don’t really know how deep it runs, both her insanity and the influence, but either way, she is either an agent of destruction or is destroying of her own. Neither is acceptable. She dropped her Alliances on LA and looked down from her drill and smiled. Thousands died. And I don’t even begin to think a person with Scarlet’s resources is the kind of person you can incarcerate easily and, I doubt, at all.

Scarlet’s life is not worth the lives of potentially thousands more innocent people.

From my perspective, it was less of a cold-blooded “heartless” murder and more of a mercy killing. Mercy for Scarlet and anyone who would encounter her.

While it is nice rationalizing this after the fact…

The point I am making is no one tried and that the lack of trying or caring is not heroic.

Our heroes knew that entering Omadd’s device fundamentally messed her up, but their response was still “kill” not “save”. It doesn’t matter if it were possible to save her or not. Perhaps she was branded and beyond saving. But what if she were the other, crazy and in need of help. Why was that idea, considering the world we are in, never once entertained.

So we only save those who we already know are savable and never try to save those that are not?

Hell, why didn’t a brave Sylvari step up to sit in Omadd’s device and try and find out exactly what Scarlet saw. The Asura could have easily provided restraints and would have happily experimented.
Or hell… Just ask the pale tree… Because apparently she already knows something.

For heroes… We sure didn’t try very hard.

I agree, but this mentality has been throughout the came the entire time. In the sylvari PS at a certain point (idk what arc and stuff, it was my first character) a friend’s beloved is falling to the nightmare court. He wants to save her whilst caithe has a mentality of ditching her (or even killing her).

Another thing that bugged me is that the only person who even slightly cares about motives is Taimi. No1 even cared when we found out about this entity that was whispering to Scarlet. Sure, we expected this, alot of people have been speculating this from the start. But for ED2.0, our character and basically any npc, the idea that Scarlet was being lead by something else should have been a huge factor. It’s even more disturbing when you take into account the farfetched things you do in PS (during your order’s arc, mainly whisper and priory) because they MIGHT be related to the dragons, yet no1 even thought of the dragons when it was about Scarlet.

I can understand that Rox and Braham just wanted to kill Scarlet. Rox wanted to get into the warband and Braham is a norn trying to improve his legend. But for Kasmeer and Jory… Their investigator’s side must have been itching.

But who knows, despite the fact that Taimi is awesome, she has been fairly useless storywise. Maybe she’ll go on a raged-investigating spree and discover some things for the March 18th release. Something she discovered in EOTM?

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: Erukk.1408

Erukk.1408

While it is nice rationalizing this after the fact…

The point I am making is no one tried and that the lack of trying or caring is not heroic.

Our heroes knew that entering Omadd’s device fundamentally messed her up, but their response was still “kill” not “save”. It doesn’t matter if it were possible to save her or not. Perhaps she was branded and beyond saving. But what if she were the other, crazy and in need of help. Why was that idea, considering the world we are in, never once entertained.

So we only save those who we already know are savable and never try to save those that are not?

While it is nice to try and save everyone, that just isn’t possible all the times, and people in tough situations have to weight the odds and go with their gut. Especially when said person in a threat to themselves or others.

If Scarlet was just a minor character, and she didn’t pose a much of a threat to many people, I would be willing to try and save her, but that isn’t the case. Scarlet was a MAJOR and active threat to the entire population of Tyria, and she had the ways and the means to escape the player’s custody and continue her actions. Actions in which she held no regret for at all.

As long as she lived, she would be a active threat to the entire population of Tyria. Sad as some people might find it, sometimes it’s just safer for everyone if the bad guys die.

Hell, why didn’t a brave Sylvari step up to sit in Omadd’s device and try and find out exactly what Scarlet saw. The Asura could have easily provided restraints and would have happily experimented.
Or hell… Just ask the pale tree… Because apparently she already knows something.

For heroes… We sure didn’t try very hard.

Judging by how that device killed all previous subjects of that experiment, and the only survivor got driven insane and became a threat to the entirety of Tyria, I would imagine that the Arcane Council, or whoever controls the legality of the experiments in Rata Sum, ruled that experiment illegal and beyond dangerous.

So, the only Asura probably willing to run that experiment again would probably be the Inquest, and they would be in no way doing it for the good of everyone. They would only be doing it for themselves.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: Alice.8694

Alice.8694

While it is nice to try and save everyone, that just isn’t possible all the times, and people in tough situations have to weight the odds and go with their gut. Especially when said person in a threat to themselves or others.

You’re just repeating yourself… Ultimately you cannot deny throughout the entire LS before scarlets “threat” grew to crazy proportions. Not once did we ever try to understand and save.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: Egon Vidar.9125

Egon Vidar.9125

While it is nice rationalizing this after the fact…

The point I am making is no one tried and that the lack of trying or caring is not heroic.

Our heroes knew that entering Omadd’s device fundamentally messed her up, but their response was still “kill” not “save”. It doesn’t matter if it were possible to save her or not. Perhaps she was branded and beyond saving. But what if she were the other, crazy and in need of help. Why was that idea, considering the world we are in, never once entertained.

I would have rationalized it the same way, whether it came before or after the fact. Anyway..

The thing is that it does matter. A lot.

Say there’s an enormous boulder teetering at the edge of a cliff. This boulder, on its journey down to the cliff’s edge, has steamrolled and killed numerous people, guided down this path by gravity. If you were to try to stop the boulder at the edge of the cliff, there is an extremely high probability it will crack the outcrop it’s on and take you down with it. And if you don’t kick it over now, who knows – maybe others will come try to stop it and end up getting crushed? Or maybe someone will pass below without realizing the danger? You can’t stop the boulder. As you stand there, you feel the earth beneath you cracking, and you only have one option. You kick the boulder off the cliff so it doesn’t kill or devastatingly injure you and, likely, others as well.

And then someone tells you that you should have tried to reason with that boulder instead of mercilessly kicking it off the cliff.

Do you honestly think that if you sat down and tried to talk sense into Scarlet, that she would listen? Do you think she’d actually let you take her to jail or some sort of institution? And do you think if you somehow miraculously managed that feat, that she’d actually stay there? That she would let you help her? That she would, or could, change? She can’t. If she’s truly influenced by a dragon, all you can do in that instant (because you might not ever get another if she gets away from you) is put an end to it, and isn’t that the more merciful thing for her and everyone else, in the end?

So we only save those who we already know are savable and never try to save those that are not?

Logic dictates that if one is not capable of being saved then it would certainly be a waste of resources and energy, and possibly put you at high personal risk (as well as others) if you make the attempt regardless. So yes. I would say that is a very sound statement.

I have no intention of trying to save the Claw of Jormag, for example.

Hell, why didn’t a brave Sylvari step up to sit in Omadd’s device and try and find out exactly what Scarlet saw. The Asura could have easily provided restraints and would have happily experimented.
Or hell… Just ask the pale tree… Because apparently she already knows something.

For heroes… We sure didn’t try very hard.

It sounds to me as though you are saying that it’s heartless to have put Scarlet out of her misery, while in the same breath saying that another Sylvari should have possibly subjected themselves (or been forced, judging by the “restraints” comment) by Asura and subjected to Omadd’s machine which, as far as we know, breaks ones mind and leaves them open to the torment of at least one Elder Dragon.
For the sake of someone who, if aware of what they were doing, killed thousands and never showed even a hint of remorse.
Am I reading this correctly?

Yikes. Doubly so as I’m a Sylvari player. They’ve already got a healthy distrust of Asura.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malomedies

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: Titus.4285

Titus.4285

I like to believe that Marjory and Kasmeer (and Taimi) know far more about the background to the recent happenings than what they’ve currently revealed to us. If they do, it could better explain the fact that Scarlet was finished off so quickly.

After all, it was Braham who said “it doesn’t matter” to Scarlet’s “don’t you wonder why I did it?”. And Braham, a hotheaded norn, doesn’t seem to have his mother’s skills of reflection and precautions.

Regarding the “mental patient” vs “branded” theory:
Any way we were in fact at war with Scarlet. And countries at war, do not follow the same rules as a country in peace with a calm, sophisticated and idealistic law-and-court system.

When that’s said, I would much rather have seen Marjory actually die; and then have Kasmeer murder Scarlet in intense rage (while the other members tries to protect “the system” and our idealistic values and to stop her, though fails to hold her back). That would to me have a much greater impact, and then we would have a real difficult discussion on whether or not it was morally right or wrong – and if Kasmeer should be prosecuted or not for her actions.

But, as I started this post: I hope they do know much more than we’ve been told so far, and that it will all be put into a greater context when the “Aftermath” patch is released on March 18th.

Let the Kings and Queens of other lands and lesser creatures
witness our wonders and cry out in astonishment and humble themselves.
Beware our mighty works.

(edited by Titus.4285)

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: Alice.8694

Alice.8694

It sounds to me as though you are saying that it’s heartless to have put Scarlet out of her misery, while in the same breath saying that another Sylvari should have possibly subjected themselves (or been forced, judging by the “restraints” comment) by Asura and subjected to Omadd’s machine which, as far as we know, breaks ones mind and leaves them open to the torment of at least one Elder Dragon.
For the sake of someone who, if aware of what they were doing, killed thousands and never showed even a hint of remorse.
Am I reading this correctly?

Yikes. Doubly so as I’m a Sylvari player. They’ve already got a healthy distrust of Asura.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malomedies

I am saying there is an unknown element at play here, one of which we are actually aware of as an unknown element as the story progresses. And at no point did we actively seek to understand it.

As I also said and you cleverly avoided… Why did no one inquire with the pale tree? After all Scarlet was one of her children which she had a connection too.

But ultimately I guess you’re obviously the type of player this story is designed to appeal too. And my complaint is that it is too simple and easy to simple pick and use this rationale as your story. It’s borderline cliche, it was a villain, we had to kill them. How boring and how unheroic.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

in Lore

Posted by: Titus.4285

Titus.4285

And my complaint is that it is too simple and easy to simple pick and use this rationale as your story. It’s borderline cliche, it was a villain, we had to kill them. How boring and how unheroic.

This part we can agree 100% on! And that is exactly why I hope the “Aftermath” release explains these issues (at least to some degree). Hopefully, it give us some of the what and why.
And even more importantly: let’s hope we get the next what and why presented to us at a great extent both prior to and continously through Living Story season 2.

Let the Kings and Queens of other lands and lesser creatures
witness our wonders and cry out in astonishment and humble themselves.
Beware our mighty works.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

in Lore

Posted by: Egon Vidar.9125

Egon Vidar.9125

I am saying there is an unknown element at play here, one of which we are actually aware of as an unknown element as the story progresses. And at no point did we actively seek to understand it.

As I also said and you cleverly avoided… Why did no one inquire with the pale tree? After all Scarlet was one of her children which she had a connection too.

But ultimately I guess you’re obviously the type of player this story is designed to appeal too. And my complaint is that it is too simple and easy to simple pick and use this rationale as your story. It’s borderline cliche, it was a villain, we had to kill them. How boring and how unheroic.

Like Erukk said above and I had forgotten, the machine kills. Regardless, Omadd is dead and Asura are notoriously stingy with their tech so he might have been the only one capable of operating it, it might actually be illegal to operate it now due to the events with Scarlet, and who would want to climb willingly into a machine that inflicts death or an insanity and elder dragon combination? I certainly would not volunteer anyone and would be utterly horrified at the prospect of someone else getting into it. If it could be researched without cramming anyone in it, I’d be all for that and that would be excellent. But too little too late, and that is a legitimate writing issue. Not even so much to “save” Scarlet, but to figure out why this happened.

I didn’t “cleverly avoid” anything, I didn’t find it worth commenting on. The Pale Tree says what she likes and I imagine that if she had any intention of speaking up, she would have by now, or that could simply be Idiot Ball writing again. I’ve no earthly idea and frankly don’t care much. You can’t harangue the pale tree into talking about things and you certainly can’t threaten her (with any amount of ease) and I imagine the important information will probably be coming from someone like DE 2.0. I learned a long time ago to stop expecting important information from her.

The story appeals to me in some fashions and in many others does not. This is just not one of the particular points I had any issue with. I had quite a lot more trouble when Caithe killed a Nightmare Courtier I had promised wouldn’t be harmed because she forcibly broke my word – but I wouldn’t have made that promise in the first place if I’d been allowed, because like Scarlet, you can’t save a Nightmare Courtier.

At least with Scarlet, no promises were made.

The thing about people, heroes or not, is that they’re generally not black and white. And I find it much less cliche for Anet to write something that can be viewed kitten grey. I never said it was awesome killing her from an IC point of view (I’m firmly against the death penalty irl and I doubt my character’s stellar with just up and killing folks, but this is a fantasy game and all), because there’s nothing awesome at all about having to kill someone, but with Scarlet being as she is, you must. Heroes cannot always go the saintly and good route to do right by the people they’re trying to protect.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

in Lore

Posted by: Erukk.1408

Erukk.1408

You’re just repeating yourself… Ultimately you cannot deny throughout the entire LS before scarlets “threat” grew to crazy proportions. Not once did we ever try to understand and save.

Her threat started at crazy proportions.

The first time we saw her: she invaded a capital city, killed an unknown amount of innocent civilians, took over an entire underground structure, then she proceeded to use that area to launch invasions across all of Tyria. After, we learned that she was behind the alliance of two different hostile forces that threatened the safety of two hugely populated cities.

What was there to understand for us? Her motives for her actions? Why she was doing what she was doing? Here is the thing about her motives though. She really only got them after becoming Scarlet Briar. As Ceara, she had her research projects and her constant thirst for knowledge, but she didn’t have any murderous motives. That only came to be after the experiment, and she was exposed to “the Entity”. Afterwards, Scarlet seemingly fell off the grid, and there was no easy and simply way to track her actions or motives.

The only way the player or anyone would get those, is if they ask Scarlet themselves. And she wasn’t giving away or telling anyone anything through the course of the LS. Doing so would make it easier for the player to spoil her plans, and she didn’t want that to happen.

As for the saving part…

You can only save someone who wishes to be saved. If you are forcing a person to change, that is not saving them. You are simply molding the person into something you wish them to be. And in the end of everything, Scarlet didn’t want to be saved or changed “for the better”, because she didn’t think she did anything wrong. All the death, the entire destruction of a city… Nothing. It was all part of her plan to free the “new Master”.

(edited by Erukk.1408)

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: Valrog.2059

Valrog.2059

Killing Scarlet truly feels like a fan-appeasement cop out.

Listening to the fans before they decide to stop playing an unappealing and sometimes flat-out irritating story is not unreasonable.

Since I started playing in September, I’ve not found anything entertaining in the story at all. I’ve only played each event to get a shiny after completing X number of achievements. It felt like unpaid work.

I do hope ArenaNet is going to put more effort into the plot, characters and dialog, and try to make it appealing to those who care about stories. The reset in the Living Story by introducing an Elder dragon could help take it in a better direction.

(edited by Valrog.2059)

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Posted by: Alice.8694

Alice.8694

The reset in the Living Story by introducing an Elder dragon could help take it in a better direction.

Sure, if they can find a way to write dragons better than zhaitan… Because 5 more dragons like Zhaitan and I think that might just kill the game.

We were promised 6 unfathomable dragons with their own plans and complicated designs. And what did we get? An undead dragon hell bent on… Eating magic.
Not exactly ground breaking is it…

If the dragons are to be antagonists, they need to step up and be less 2 dimensional than scarlet.

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Posted by: DarcShriek.5829

DarcShriek.5829

If we imprisoned here where would we put her, Arkham Asylum?

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

And in the end of everything, Scarlet didn’t want to be saved or changed “for the better”, because she didn’t think she did anything wrong. All the death, the entire destruction of a city… Nothing. It was all part of her plan to free the “new Master”.

It was a plan to free Mordremoth, nothing says exactly that he is her master or the voice in her head. That are all assumptions. And I like to get further and say that we are in a comfortable situation.
If someone witnesses a big problem in the real world and wants to change it, because it’s unfair against a lot of people who don’t have a word in the community and are jailed away, which way does he have to go? Is it a simple and good way to go through the world and tell all about the iniquity? How many will listen? From those who will listen, how many will believe you? What if the real threats (using legal unfairness) are among the common people that you tell about unfairness, will you be heared? … It’s hard to get recognized sane if you know know some endangering secrets and no one will believe you. So take it insane and ignore the situation or change the situation and get recognized insane, while you aren’t. The controlling entity is implied, but not confirmed and the diary looks more like an enduring conversation than a take over.

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

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Posted by: DarcShriek.5829

DarcShriek.5829

And in the end of everything, Scarlet didn’t want to be saved or changed “for the better”, because she didn’t think she did anything wrong. All the death, the entire destruction of a city… Nothing. It was all part of her plan to free the “new Master”.

It was a plan to free Mordremoth, nothing says exactly that he is her master or the voice in her head. That are all assumptions. And I like to get further and say that we are in a comfortable situation.
If someone witnesses a big problem in the real world and wants to change it, because it’s unfair against a lot of people who don’t have a word in the community and are jailed away, which way does he have to go? Is it a simple and good way to go through the world and tell all about the iniquity? How many will listen? From those who will listen, how many will believe you? What if the real threats (using legal unfairness) are among the common people that you tell about unfairness, will you be heared? … It’s hard to get recognized sane if you know know some endangering secrets and no one will believe you. So take it insane and ignore the situation or change the situation and get recognized insane, while you aren’t. The controlling entity is implied, but not confirmed and the diary looks more like an enduring conversation than a take over.

She says that Tyria has a new master. She is an element in the set named Tyria. Therefore, Mordremoth is her master.

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

She says that Tyria has a new master. She is an element in the set named Tyria. Therefore, Mordremoth is her master.

There are some more powerful creature out there and the dragons are quite underpowered. With a sight on dragon themselfes it is questionable why a single dragon should be the master of Tyria. She also says that we will bow before the new master, which is less threaty than it sounds, because you might also bow before a master which is generous (and we know nothing about the “new master”). Dragon is a quick shot and short sighted … there is more.

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

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Posted by: Weindrasi.3805

Weindrasi.3805

I tried to read the posts but they’re all long and debate-ey so I gave up.
I was sad that Scarlet died, I adored her.
But, I feel like it was the only way. After her actions, there is no redemption. From the character’s viewpoints, there is no logic in keeping her alive a moment longer.

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Posted by: DarcShriek.5829

DarcShriek.5829

She says that Tyria has a new master. She is an element in the set named Tyria. Therefore, Mordremoth is her master.

There are some more powerful creature out there and the dragons are quite underpowered. With a sight on dragon themselfes it is questionable why a single dragon should be the master of Tyria. She also says that we will bow before the new master, which is less threaty than it sounds, because you might also bow before a master which is generous (and we know nothing about the “new master”). Dragon is a quick shot and short sighted … there is more.

You’re going to be disappointed.

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

I have a feeling we just killed her body or the body that she was inhabiting (i forget her name) i think the true scarlet’s mind will be with the dragon.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: Avster.1935

Avster.1935

The point I am making is no one tried and that the lack of trying or caring is not heroic.

Our heroes knew that entering Omadd’s device fundamentally messed her up, but their response was still “kill” not “save”. It doesn’t matter if it were possible to save her or not. Perhaps she was branded and beyond saving. But what if she were the other, crazy and in need of help. Why was that idea, considering the world we are in, never once entertained

We didn’t have any opportunities to save her before she executed her plan to forge three alliances and attack LA with full force. At this point, she killed a lot of civilians, and terrorized a lot of people.

If The Captain’s Council ACTUALLY LISTENED to the warnings and evacuated the citizen, we would have been in a better position to arrest Scarlet.

We could have imprisoned her in an impenetrable fortress (not like Canach’s imprisonment, as it was quite weakly guarded and out in the open / easy access). From there on, we could have interrogated her about Mordemoth…

But unfortunately, she killed people with all her insanity, so, we don’t have much option left :| If there was a way to return her sanity, so she can use her superior knowledge to help make up for all the deed she has done, then that is a different story. But since this avenue was not explored, her death was the only way to end this.

P.S. The Scarlet in the cutscene looks WAY better than the crappy in-game model they made. I mean, the faces don’t even match properly!

Evelyn Whitehawk | Exalted Legend | Demons’s Demise | I Transmuted My Legendary Medium Coat

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

She says that Tyria has a new master. She is an element in the set named Tyria. Therefore, Mordremoth is her master.

There are some more powerful creature out there and the dragons are quite underpowered. With a sight on dragon themselfes it is questionable why a single dragon should be the master of Tyria. She also says that we will bow before the new master, which is less threaty than it sounds, because you might also bow before a master which is generous (and we know nothing about the “new master”). Dragon is a quick shot and short sighted … there is more.

You’re going to be disappointed.

If the dragons really want to destroy Tyria, they would have done it long ago. They just want to reclaim the magic on the planet and everyone who is in their way is their enemy (the player side is acting equal).
Zhaitan is systematically defeated and ripped into two pieces by a stange blue laser (from which I don’t even know technical details). Kralkatorric was nearly defeated from 6 people and a minor dragon. One of Snaff’s inventions is useable to gain control over an elder dragon. While there are powerful magic creatures are hiding across Tyria (dragon fodder), they do not fight. Instead they are sending their minor minions (Norn, Charr, Human, Sylvari, Centaur, Asura, …) into the fight and pull the dragons to their location that they feel threatened from the dragons and are willing to fight them.
Zhaitan, Karka and Scarlet attacked Lion’s Arch maybe for the same reason, the magical intersection between the ley-lines, but I doesn’t declare why the magical flow got stuck there.
The “generous” new master is just an assumption, because Scarlet communicated with somebody else and at least wanted to reveal the fight that we do not see.

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: Fext.3614

Fext.3614

Our heroes opt to imprison scarlet instead of killing her. The first chapter of the second season would see scarlet imprisoned in an impenetrably force-field within Rata-sum.

Not THAT again. Every time I finish the Mai Trin bossfight I’m furious that I can’t finish her for good. And to do the same mistake with such a boring character like Scarlett? Oh please no more emotionaly unstable egomaniac characters in power roles. [spoiler]And on the top of that Marjorje survives. kitten it. [/spoiler]

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Posted by: redslion.9675

redslion.9675

Yeah, Scarlet’s death was disappointing. I hoped for something more like this:

You will never be able to know what an engineer is going to do next…

because he doesn’t know it himself

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Posted by: geogyf.5087

geogyf.5087

Our Heroes were filled with RAGE over what Scarlet had done.
Scarlet was not branded, but more like a deranged, insane person that was heavily infunced over the days/months/years by the Elder Dragon.
So theoretically there was a possibility for her.
So they slew her mercilessly.
They have a bit of a dark side to them.

Maybe the next super minion of the next Elder Dragon has some chance to be saved

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Posted by: Alice.8694

Alice.8694

Our Heroes were filled with RAGE over what Scarlet had done.
Scarlet was not branded, but more like a deranged, insane person that was heavily infunced over the days/months/years by the Elder Dragon.
So theoretically there was a possibility for her.
So they slew her mercilessly.
They have a bit of a dark side to them.

Ultimately we are partaking in a shallow and two dimensional story and all I really want is to add some depth and intrigue into the world. A world which is so beautiful artistically and yet with an almost criminal under written narrative.

My suggestions above are not what I believe should have happened but instead ideas as to what might have been possible to bring depth to a shallow story. Ceara as a secondary plot coming in conflict with her actions as Scarlet would have been an opportunity for that. However I am not the writer of this story, it is not my place to dictate what should and should not be.

But your suggestion equally holds similar opportunity to the creative, should the writers embrace your idea they could equally bring depth to our rookie b-team and hero.

I’d also love them to stop wasting valuable plot on website stories and instead invest that into the game where it is most needed.

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

Ceara as a secondary plot coming in conflict with her actions as Scarlet would have been an opportunity for that.

After a long time thinking about what she has done I figured finally out why (beside dragon). It wouldn’t have matched into the story at all. She wasn’t in conflict with her actions. Everything done was necessary. All of her followers are smiling. Never wondered about it?

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

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Posted by: Alice.8694

Alice.8694

She wasn’t in conflict with her actions.

Scarlet was not in conflict with Scarlet’s actions, no.

The question I am posing is… Was Ceara?

I don’t think the game gave sufficient insight for any of us to anwser this. But her diary seems to imply she was in conflict with what she would become.

Unless you can rationalize to me how an incredibly intelligent person can go from what they were to a psychopathic villain on a suicidal mission to raise a dragon that would most likely wake up eventually anyway.

I mean really… If scarlet knew she’d fall on the breachmaker… What was in this plan for her as a person?

(edited by Alice.8694)

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

The question I am posing is… Was Ceara?

Ceara is Scarlet. There are no two persons in one. She decided not to be Ceara anymore and that’s why she’d choosen a new name.

I don’t think the game gave sufficient insight for any of us to anwser this. But her diary seems to imply she was in conflict with what she would become.

She was in conflict with was she acknowledged during Omadds machine. Her diary mentions another entity talking to her, but she does what she does for herself.
Scarlet Briar: Ever since I came out of Omadd’s machine, you’ve been taking credit for my ideas. They are mine! Not yours.
Scarlet Briar: Let me be clear. I’m not doing this for you; I’m doing it for me. Nobody tells me what to do. Not ever.

Unless you can rationalize to me how an incredibly intelligent person can go from what they were to a psychopathic villain on a suicidal mission to raise a dragon that would most likely wake up eventually anyway.

All a matter of perspective. If you listen to her then you’ll hear that nothing works as planned during holo fight and the final instance shows pretty clear that she was protecting the drill until it reaches the intersection (what she didn’t see in the end). She could have safed herself at any time, but she didn’t (she has an one-person-teleport-device).

I was in the final instance with my engineer (the control interfaces have another dialogue). She drilled into a great magical concentration. With this concentration you could rule the world, but she didn’t install a collector. She built the machine unstoppable and defended it (she knows that the pact has explosives and uses them).

The questions which are open: Why is there an intersection? Why is the magic heavily concentrated there and doesn’t affected sorrounding area (LA and magic?)?

There is a big war happening in Tyria and a small sylvari wanted to change the balance to her own advantage.

I mean really… If scarlet knew she’d fall on the breachmaker… What was in this plan for her as a person?

She didn’t knew, but everything would have been pointless if the drill is destroyed. The initial plan was freedom and she never had the power to gain it. She set up plans with every little detail planned, except us, we destroyed her plans.

I haven’t forgotten that she killed thousands, but I admit that she didn’t have another chance. At least I see no other way and I hope the aftermath in more or less 48 hrs will tell.

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

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Posted by: Alice.8694

Alice.8694

Scarlet Briar: “Let me be clear. I’m not doing this for you; I’m doing it for me. Nobody tells me what to do. Not ever.”

ltimately you just shot your point in the foot with this one… Comparing this to the dairy, her results and her death. Quite clearly demonstrates that there was nothing in this for her. That she talks of not being told what to do, while a dragon tells her what to do shows inner conflict which you are apparently ignoring and instead reading this at face value.
You really seem to be pushing your desire to interpret the character negatively upon the character.

She could have safed herself at any time, but she didn’t (she has an one-person-teleport-device).

I was in the final instance with my engineer (the control interfaces have another dialogue). She drilled into a great magical concentration. With this concentration you could rule the world, but she didn’t install a collector. She built the machine unstoppable and defended it (she knows that the pact has explosives and uses them).

Need I really highlight the contradiction here too?

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

The result of her dead wasn’t planned, but it gives her peace.

It communicated with me through images of death, destruction, and destiny. I must know more. I must confront it and put an end to this madness. Dated Season of the Scion, 1323.

This is the last entry of her diary and it still doesn’t sound like controlling if she wants to confront it. She talks about a “new master”, not about “my master”.
For me it sounds like several individuals in Tyria want the same and Scarlet was one of them.

After the holo recording Marjory is talking about voices in her head which is funny, because every Sylvari born from the Pale Tree is connected to the dream. And the dream is talking through the Avatar of the Pale Tree. So we have a dragon and the Pale Tree in her head. Are there more? To who does she say this:

It’s not true. None of it. I don’t have to listen to you. Get out of my head!

She could have safed herself at any time, but she didn’t (she has an one-person-teleport-device).

I was in the final instance with my engineer (the control interfaces have another dialogue). She drilled into a great magical concentration. With this concentration you could rule the world, but she didn’t install a collector. She built the machine unstoppable and defended it (she knows that the pact has explosives and uses them).

Need I really highlight the contradiction here too?

Oh this drill doesn’t have a switch to turn it off and we cannot pull the power plug. We’ll probably never stop it.

She fought for every second to keep the drill working and would have left on success, the rest is just in case she fails.

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: Alice.8694

Alice.8694

The result of her dead wasn’t planned, but it gives her peace.

“It communicated with me through images of death, destruction, and destiny. I must know more. I must confront it and put an end to this madness. Dated Season of the Scion, 1323.”

This is the last entry of her diary and it still doesn’t sound like controlling if she wants to confront it. She talks about a “new master”, not about “my master”.
For me it sounds like several individuals in Tyria want the same and Scarlet was one of them.

After the holo recording Marjory is talking about voices in her head which is funny, because every Sylvari born from the Pale Tree is connected to the dream. And the dream is talking through the Avatar of the Pale Tree. So we have a dragon and the Pale Tree in her head. Are there more? To who does she say this:

“It’s not true. None of it. I don’t have to listen to you. Get out of my head!”

What was the point of any of this exactly? None of this demonstrates that Ceara is of a sane enough mind to be held accountable for Scarlet’s actions. Or whether the two are separate entities or a twisted metamorphosis like a branded. The second quote however is definitely directed at Mordremoth. Since Ceara only had contact with the pale tree within omadd’s device. Based on Anet’s words it would seem that normally she was akin to a soundless and had a deadlink to the pale tree.

This thread was about the lack of depth in her character and the now lost opportunity to ever give her any. None of my suggestions were claims of truth, so why you are trying so desperately hard to disprove a mere suggestion, I don’t know. I also notice you aren’t offering any yourself… You’re happy with the status quo then? You are fine with scarlet being a two dimensional “bad because we said so” villain who died accomplishing a plot device but never anything of significance to her character and that’s it?

I dunno about you, but i expect more from my stories… And I’m here primarily for the story and lore that drew me into GW1. I was expecting, come GW2 the writing to be on the same level as eye of the north. Not a total talent reset back to prophecies style writing and villains.

We didn’t need a second Shiro… And we sure as heck could do without a second Zhaitan.

She could have safed herself at any time, but she didn’t (she has an one-person-teleport-device).

I was in the final instance with my engineer (the control interfaces have another dialogue). She drilled into a great magical concentration. With this concentration you could rule the world, but she didn’t install a collector. She built the machine unstoppable and defended it (she knows that the pact has explosives and uses them).

Need I really highlight the contradiction here too?

Oh this drill doesn’t have a switch to turn it off and we cannot pull the power plug. We’ll probably never stop it.

She fought for every second to keep the drill working and would have left on success, the rest is just in case she fails.

Apparently I do need to point out the contradiction of building a drill that cannot be stopped and then pointlessly defending it with your life.

Scarlet never did anything in half measure, she tested everything before throwing it at us in the final battle. She would know what it would take to destroy her drill more than anyone else and more than likely whether the pact could pull it out before she reached her objective. Heck, if she wanted to stop them from getting to the drill before it triggered… An auto locking door on her deck would have been enough to stop us long enough for the drill to activate.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

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Posted by: CHIPS.6018

CHIPS.6018

She is a monster that killed thousands of women and children, and threatens thousands more by waking up an Elder Dragon. No jury is needed and we are the judge. This sword is for monsters.

Chipsy Chips(Necromancer) & Char Ashnoble(Thief)
The Order of Dii[Dii]-SBI→Kaineng→TC→JQ
Necro Encyclopedia-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrAjJ1N6hxs

(edited by CHIPS.6018)

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Posted by: Alice.8694

Alice.8694

She is a monster that killed thousands of women and children, and threatens thousands more by waking up an Elder Dragon. No jury is needed and we are the judge. This sword is for monsters.

Fine fine, I get it, since you all clearly just want to revel in ‘justified’ violence while also constantly complaining elsewhere that the story is “not good enough”.

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

Ceara = Scarlet Brair (no multiple personality). It quite awesome writing to trick a whole community into believing that someone is corrupted and not master of her own actions. I have sadly to confess that she was corrupted and this maybe to the end, but not her mind. Her mind got free. She didn’t choose the path of the soundless (ingnore and survive) and she didn’t choose the path of the nightmare (true sylvari origin) and she didn’t choose the path of the dream (the guide of the sylvari).

I’ll cannot offer a solution for lacking perception. I cannot tell you the real problems of Tyria (I won’t), but I have really fun to search for more answers. Scarlet is “bad because we said so” and that is the problem, because she wasn’t bad. She has gone to the biggest competition ever and wanted to win, while she also wins (in a personal scaling) if she dies.

Regarding the drill: We started the counter attack as soon as possible, while Scarlet started to drill as soon as possible and watched her work. All little things, all the preparations, do you forget that the ships entrances are guarded from legendary assault knights and you have to take down all three to enter. Gather light atunement to take part in the fight which drop while the holo is reloading her weapon. In the backgroud does the laser from the Marionette load, which kills all in the room if the time has exceeded. … What doesn’t tell you that she setup everything to get every second possible?

I came into this thread, because I thought you are really emotional affected from her death. At this point I knew that she is obviously not the person all people are writing about (hateable insane dragon driven mass murder). It took several weeks to gather informations about the situation in Tyria and try to put them into a right order. The final conclusion was some days ago and I ran into a lot of dead ends and misinterpreted a lot. Now I’m on the right track and really scared about things that happen in the game. Scarlet was the only one who gathered a lot power and informations to get closer to the problem. The dragons don’t have the power to do so.

The story is written as it is on purpose. The turn side is to perceive it between amazing fights and dull answers to happenings of our allies.

I never played guild wars 1 and was very confused from the personal story in guild wars 2 and even everything in the world seemed so strange/disconnected/specialized that I thought I have to play guild wars to get some knowledge. A friend who got me into this game couldn’t give me answers to a lot of the stuff, but now it makes sense and I can explore the game a second time to search for even more answers, while I know already a lot.

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

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Posted by: Mikhail.4961

Mikhail.4961

Alice, I notice that you apply pathos to your argument of “saving” and quite a bit of the ethos of our characters (and heroic NPCs), while forgetting something very, very important that I feel needs repetition:
Scarlet did not want to be saved. Scarlet is Scarlet, and what she did, didn’t do or would have done, would have all been her. An ED might’ve given her the initial push, but the rest? That’s Scarlet.

Then there’s the question whether she’d been able to handle being saved: to commit such acts, to have the blood of thousands on your hands and then be saved? That’s a betrayal against who you are and would likely lead to a spiritual collapse – and I doubt neither Scarlet or Ceara would have recovered from it.

So in the end, was it a mercy killing? Putting the mad mass murderer out of her misery? Does that make us less heroic? I don’t know. Saving perhaps countless people from her continued machinations vs the moral high ground of an ideal society is something we can debate when we get some proof that Tyrians don’t stone people with mental disabilities.

P.S. Stopping drill =/= turning off drill. Scarlet probably defended it to the last because she knew they couldn’t turn it off with the controls, but could probably damage it enough.

Any class is easy to play, but not as easy to master. So sod off, warrior-haters.

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Posted by: Alice.8694

Alice.8694

Alice, I notice that you apply pathos to your argument of “saving” and quite a bit of the ethos of our characters (and heroic NPCs), while forgetting something very, very important that I feel needs repetition:
Scarlet did not want to be saved. Scarlet is Scarlet, and what she did, didn’t do or would have done, would have all been her.

Firstly I feel you need to realise this was just a suggestion of how the writers could have brought depth to the story, nothing more.

Secondly most mentally ill patients do not want saving, partly due to their mental illness rejecting the help of the people trying to help them as hostile. So are you advocating we kill mentally ill patients because they won’t embrace help? Even mass murderers who are found insane aren’t sentenced as murderers, they are taken to a place that can hopefully help them and their sentencing is postponed until it can be determined if it is right to hold them responsible for their actions during their insanity.

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Posted by: Egon Vidar.9125

Egon Vidar.9125

Secondly most mentally ill patients do not want saving, partly due to their mental illness rejecting the help of the people trying to help them as hostile. So are you advocating we kill mentally ill patients because they won’t embrace help?

I want to very gently and very carefully state that this is not correct, at all, and trust me when I say that I have close experience with this without having to divulge too much personal information. People who are aware that they are mentally ill frequently do want help because of how detrimentally it can affect their lives and the lives of those around them. They even often turn to self-medication at times out of desperation when they’re not in a financial or social position to receive help. Scarlet does not behave at all like and is not very comparable to a real mentally ill person. I’m not sure if she was written that way intentionally, or if it’s due to a lack of depth in the writing. I suspect the latter.

Even mass murderers who are found insane aren’t sentenced as murderers, they are taken to a place that can hopefully help them and their sentencing is postponed until it can be determined if it is right to hold them responsible for their actions during their insanity.

The insanity defense is rare, has to be plead (mental illness is not assumed by default), and almost never gets accepted anyway, even if a large portion of serial killers do suffer from mental illness – it’s not to a degree that they can’t tell right from wrong. They also often get the death penalty (though not on a successful plea), which again, I do not condone irl, but this is a fantasy game and these circumstances are fantastical.

The only recent successful insanity plea I can think of off the top of my head was John du Pont, and even then, he was still convicted of murder. Third degree, but regardless, that is a murder charge.

Scarlet very much acts like she knows right from wrong.

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Posted by: Alice.8694

Alice.8694

Scarlet does not behave at all like and is not very comparable to a real mentally ill person. I’m not sure if she was written that way intentionally, or if it’s due to a lack of depth in the writing. I suspect the latter.

I agree.

Scarlet very much acts like she knows right from wrong.

So I pose this question to you…
Two alternative worlds…
Ceara One, willingly chooses to become scarlet and go on a murderous rampage.
Ceara Two, has her agency overruled by Mordremoth who causes her to become scarlet and go on a murderous rampage.

From our limited view of the situation, how would we know the difference? And in a magical world such as Tyria where coming into unknown and unstable elements has a habit of turning out bad for the person involved. Why would our heroes assume one over two, more so after reading the diary?

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Posted by: CHIPS.6018

CHIPS.6018

She is a monster that killed thousands of women and children, and threatens thousands more by waking up an Elder Dragon. No jury is needed and we are the judge. This sword is for monsters.

Fine fine, I get it, since you all clearly just want to revel in ‘justified’ violence while also constantly complaining elsewhere that the story is “not good enough”.

Did she not killed thousands of women and children? She did deserve a violent end.

Did we, the heroes, not killed hundreds of criminals? Why would we give her mercy?

Chipsy Chips(Necromancer) & Char Ashnoble(Thief)
The Order of Dii[Dii]-SBI→Kaineng→TC→JQ
Necro Encyclopedia-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrAjJ1N6hxs

Disappointed that scarlet died.

in Lore

Posted by: Alice.8694

Alice.8694

Did she not killed thousands of women and children? She did deserve a violent end.

Indirectly? I am not sure of figures due to the actual things she did being vague and gamey.
Directly? No.

Did we, the heroes, not killed hundreds of criminals? Why would we give her mercy?

To be better than the villains we claim to be above.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

in Lore

Posted by: CHIPS.6018

CHIPS.6018

Alice, I notice that you apply pathos to your argument of “saving” and quite a bit of the ethos of our characters (and heroic NPCs), while forgetting something very, very important that I feel needs repetition:
Scarlet did not want to be saved. Scarlet is Scarlet, and what she did, didn’t do or would have done, would have all been her.

Firstly I feel you need to realise this was just a suggestion of how the writers could have brought depth to the story, nothing more.

Secondly most mentally ill patients do not want saving, partly due to their mental illness rejecting the help of the people trying to help them as hostile. So are you advocating we kill mentally ill patients because they won’t embrace help? Even mass murderers who are found insane aren’t sentenced as murderers, they are taken to a place that can hopefully help them and their sentencing is postponed until it can be determined if it is right to hold them responsible for their actions during their insanity.

Scarlet never asked for mercy because she is Villain Sue. She is the “perfect villain” in every way. She even ask “Do you know why I did it?” Then she said “You think my death saves you?”

The perfect secretive Villain Sue till the end.

Chipsy Chips(Necromancer) & Char Ashnoble(Thief)
The Order of Dii[Dii]-SBI→Kaineng→TC→JQ
Necro Encyclopedia-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrAjJ1N6hxs

Disappointed that scarlet died.

in Lore

Posted by: Egon Vidar.9125

Egon Vidar.9125

So I pose this question to you…
Two alternative worlds…
Ceara One, willingly chooses to become scarlet and go on a murderous rampage.
Ceara Two, has her agency overruled by Mordremoth who causes her to become scarlet and go on a murderous rampage.

From our limited view of the situation, how would we know the difference? And in a magical world such as Tyria where coming into unknown and unstable elements has a habit of turning out bad for the person involved. Why would our heroes assume one over two, more so after reading the diary?

Schrödinger’s Scarlet, eh?

The Scarlet in the box is either by choice an omnicidal maniac, or one without free will and is forced to be one by an outside entity. Or, even simultaneously both, maybe.

Scarlet has shown with her character that she is not likely to change, no matter what the driving force is. She’s also shown she will happily kill thousands (I think the Lion’s Arch tally was between 20 and 40 thousand? Very Large Number of some sort) without regard. She’s also exhibited an ability to escape with ease, and has incredible resources at her disposal (somehow).

Logically, the life of one who wishes to destroy others is not worth the lives of many, especially as the many do not wish to harm others. Therefore, the state of the Scarlet in the box does not matter, it’s better to protect the many than to give an opportunity to the one who has a record of treachery.

As unfair as that might seem. And if she really, truly was not acting of her own volition for the most part (I don’t believe it), then that’s a moral conundrum that, hopefully, they’ll actually have the stones to write in for our PCs.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

in Lore

Posted by: Alice.8694

Alice.8694

As unfair as that might seem. And if she really, truly was not acting of her own volition for the most part (I don’t believe it), then that’s a moral conundrum that, hopefully, they’ll actually have the stones to write in for our PCs.

And that’s all I am trying to advocate here… Some three dimensional writing.
Even if scarlet is Ceara One, the very question remains unanswered. And that uncertainty alone can breed plot.

Scarlet’s dead, that boat has sailed… With the idea of saving her I just wanted to really highlight how much wasted opportunity there was for depth here.

Going forward, I hope they put more emphasis on narrative depth.

Disappointed that scarlet died.

in Lore

Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

Did she not killed thousands of women and children? She did deserve a violent end.

Indirectly? I am not sure of figures due to the actual things she did being vague and gamey.
Directly? No.

Did we, the heroes, not killed hundreds of criminals? Why would we give her mercy?

To be better than the villains we claim to be above.

When dealing with villains, “being better” is just another way to say “being dead”.

Server: Devona’s Rest