Question about Elder Dragon Champions

Question about Elder Dragon Champions

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Posted by: Korval.3751

Korval.3751

Was Scarlet Briar a champion of Mordremoth?

Primordus
- The Great Destroyer
- Destroyer of Life

Jormag
- Drakkar
- The Nornbear
- Dragonspawn
- Claw of Jormag

Zhaitan
- Tequatl the Sunless
- The Eye of Zhaitan
- The Mouth of Zhaitan

Kralkatorrik
- Glint
- The Shatterer

Mordremoth
- Scarlet Briar ?

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Posted by: Dondagora.9645

Dondagora.9645

It is assumed that the sylvari are, by nature, his minions. It is unknown as to whether she was a champion or not, though it seems so given she worked directly under him and not through another.
There’s also the theory that the Pale Tree is Mordremoth’s champion, in which Scarlet may still be just a minion, or perhaps a different sort of champion or ranked-up minion.

(edited by Dondagora.9645)

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

It’s assumed. Can’t stress that enough. Not even popularly assumed, and there are some very good arguments against it.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Players assume – with no concrete evidence I will add, more of just supposition on taking particular pieces of evidence to incorporate more than it may – that sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions. But this holds little to no water currently, since there’s more support against it than for (it’s been so heavily discussed it’s not worth dragging this thread into it too).

Now, whether Scarlet was a champion of Mordremoth specifically is still unknown. But if so, this means that Mordremoth is the only Elder Dragon capable of corrupting sylvari (they’re outright said to be ‘immune’ to corruption by Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan – and by immune I mean that they die when touched by the corruptive energies – for the “sylvari are dragon minions” bit, people tend to use this for an argument for the theory, but it equally (at least) can be used against it given Crucible of Eternity lore). There is reason to believe she was corrupted by Mordremoth – though it’s also possible that Mordremoth was simply talking into her mind, and no corruption was actually taking place (just your typical driving someone mad via telepathy stuff).

There are arguments both for and against Scarlet Briar being a champion of Mordremoth. But it isn’t yet concrete nor clear in either direction.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

The only other human(oid) dragon champion was Svanir, who got transformed into the nornbear. No dragon champion looks even vaguely human.

If scarlet was a dragon champion, she was uniquely unaffected by the transformation.

And for someone who was notoriously voluble, she was strangely reticent about having any association with an elder dragon at all.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Wrong.

There have been several risen dragon champions which looked… simply like risen/undead versions of themself. The captain of the dead ship in Sea of Sorrows book (as I’ve heard)… the Risen norn dragon champion in Edge of Destiny, the risen norn dragon champion from personal story (priory line, if you go with the wardens after claw island IIRC)…

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

The only other human(oid) dragon champion was Svanir, who got transformed into the nornbear. No dragon champion looks even vaguely human.

If scarlet was a dragon champion, she was uniquely unaffected by the transformation.

And for someone who was notoriously voluble, she was strangely reticent about having any association with an elder dragon at all.

Captain Whiting and Herboza the Wretched were both champions, and both were only pretty standard reanimated human and norn, respectively. I find it likely that a lot of the more autonomous, champion level risen in the Orr storylines are also champions, as they match all of the traits that make dragon champions what they are- the ability to lead in combat, the deference of lesser minions to them, a reaction from their dragon when they die…

EDIT: Forgot Morgus Lethe. Nice catch, Kalavier.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Hell, the various princes of Orr match the traits of a dragon champion, and they were all basically human risen.

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

A champion level minion is not the same thing as a Dragon Champion. They’re just minions with defiant and a bigger hit point pool.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

A champion level minion is not the same thing as a Dragon Champion. They’re just minions with defiant and a bigger hit point pool.

I didn’t say they were. I’m not worried about what fancy border their portrait has; I’m talking about how the story treats them.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

A champion level minion is not the same thing as a Dragon Champion. They’re just minions with defiant and a bigger hit point pool.

No, but a number of named Risen in the personal story (some leveled at champion) behave exactly as dragon champions have been described as acting. Including every prince of Orr we’ve seen.

“dragon champions have only had one humanoid, being Svanir” is a false statement.

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Posted by: Korval.3751

Korval.3751

The only other human(oid) dragon champion was Svanir, who got transformed into the nornbear. No dragon champion looks even vaguely human.

If scarlet was a dragon champion, she was uniquely unaffected by the transformation.

And for someone who was notoriously voluble, she was strangely reticent about having any association with an elder dragon at all.

According to lore here are three examples of humanoid Elder Dragon champions.

Jormag
- The Nornbear

Zhaitan
- The Eye of Zhaitan
- The Mouth of Zhaitan

There’s nothing in the lore that says an Elder Dragon champion cannot be humanoid. The fact that Scarlet was super intelligent and had the ability to assemble a large army from unlikely allies is a feat on the level of an elder dragon champion. Not even Tequatl or The Shatterer was able to assemble an army as large and diverse as Scarlet’s.

(edited by Korval.3751)

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

The eye of Zhaitan isn’t humanoid at all. And the mouth of Zhaitan is bipedal, but it doesn’t look like it was ever human either.

I wasn’t aware of the pirate captains being dragon champions, but on the other hand it’s not like any of them could walk into a bar unnoticed. Maybe a really dimly lit one, that already smelt bad.

Scarlet could pass as normal (from her appearance). She could wander around a city without attracting attention. That is highly unusual for a dragon champion. Dragon champions tend to stand out. Scarlet seems way too normal.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

I do agree that it seems rather unlikely that Scarlet was a conventional dragon champion. I’m still not decided as to whether or not the entity is related to Mordremoth, and if it is, Scarlet is either directly or indirectly an agent, but champion entails A.) the largest degree of the dragon’s will, and B.) full control over the dragon’s minions. Scarlet was convinced she was still working for herself, so it seems unlikely she was a champion in that regard, and she had to go to quite a degree of effort to build an army, which wouldn’t be necessary for a champion. (For those who might point out that maybe Mordremoth doesn’t have an army yet, I would counter that corruption can be spread even when the dragon in question is sleeping, and even without a pre-existing pool, it would’ve made more sense for Scarlet to build up her army that way if the option was available.)

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Korval.3751

Korval.3751

Well since we don’t know much about Mordremoth we should consider the possibility that unlike the other elder dragons who corrupt from the outside; perhaps Mordremoth corrupts from the inside. The target’s mind or spirit, or both. Which could explain the Nightmare Court, the Giant Jungle Worm, and other “corrupted” living plants that look fine on the outside but behave in an aggressive and adversarial manner.

Makes you wonder what the Pale Tree might have been like had Ventari’s Tablet not influence its growth… for good.

(edited by Korval.3751)

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Scarlet only showed signs of physical corruption AFTER dying. “Walking into a bar unnoticed” isn’t a trait dragon champions must have. Nor is it the aspect in question… which was “no dragon champion besides svanir is humanoid or close to it.” which isn’t true at all.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

A champion level minion is not the same thing as a Dragon Champion. They’re just minions with defiant and a bigger hit point pool.

A dragon champion is a high ranking dragon with extremely high intelligence (compared to other dragons), the capability of leading other dragon minions (often full out armies – hence why they’re also often called lieutenants or generals), and a greatly increased capability of self-decision in their actions (we see some dragon champions act rather selfishly even though they still serve their dragon).

All dragon champions are represented in the form of legendary, epic, and only rarely champion ranks. But Morgus Lethe is outright called a dragon champion, and Captain Whiting shares all characteristics with them. Herboza is also outright called a dragon champion, and the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan similarly share all characteristics (as do the temple priests and the Wraithlord and High Priests from Arah explorable).

I actually disagree with the statement of the princes fitting the requriement of dragon champions – there seems to be, in general speaking, three “ranks” of dragon minions. Your grunts, your lieutenants, and your champions. Grunts are often mindless and will just swarm everything if not directed by a lieutenant and/or champion. Lieutenants I count as those who show sense of their self (like the majority of the Indomitable crew from Sea of Sorrows, and the Princes of Orr) but lack the ability to lead huge armies (but can lead small groups) and seem to believe their dragon favors them specifically. Champions are capable of leading armies, doing actions that could potentially harm their dragon, and perhaps most interestingly: the death of a champion causes its dragon to roar in pain, anger, or fear.

In mechanics, most of those I’d consider lieutenants (branded and destroyers having some members outright called “Lieutenant” hence why I use the term even though some dragon champions are called lieutenants) are shown as veternas, while most champions are ranked champion and up.

According to lore here are three examples of humanoid Elder Dragon champions.

Jormag
- The Nornbear

Zhaitan
- The Eye of Zhaitan
- The Mouth of Zhaitan

Incomplete. Zhaitan also had – outright stated – Morgus Lethe and Herboza the Wretched. Other humanoids sharing dragon champion traits include:

  • Kudu’s Monster (successful attempt at making a dragon champion Kudu could control)
  • Subject Alpha (first attempt at making a dragon champion Kudu could control)
  • Captain Whiting (from SoS, human)
  • Chieftain Kronon (from EoD, ogre)
  • Victurus the Shattered (in Iron Marches, charr)
  • Uldek the Fierce (ogre personal story, ogre)

Just to name those I can think of off the top of my head.

The fact that Scarlet was super intelligent and had the ability to assembly a large army from unlikely allies is a feat on the level of an elder dragon champion. Not even Tequatl or The Shatterer was able to assemble an army as large and diverse as Scarlet’s.

I disagree. Dragon champions are only capable of leading dragon minions. They are intelligent… but only compared to other dragon minions – some may be intelligent compared to the races, but those cases would be as uncommon as intelligent individual amongst the races.

Amassing a diverse army of multiple factions is not a feat on the level of a dragon champion, let alone the feat of one. That’s something the players had already done – in the form of the Pact.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: CureForLiving.5360

CureForLiving.5360

If scarlet was a dragon champion, she was uniquely unaffected by the transformation.

It’s not really transformation so much as corruption. Semantics yes, but it might be more useful to think of it that way. In anycase Sylvari don’t show any physical corruption, Zhaitan can’t raise them, they can’t be branded etc. however mentally Sylvari are very susceptible to corruption. Nightmare Court being a good example. Although we’re fudging around a bit with corruption, since there’s a number of other theories regarding the Nightmare Court and there’s no tangible link between the Nightmare and Dragon Corruption.

Wrong.

There have been several risen dragon champions which looked… simply like risen/undead versions of themself. The captain of the dead ship in Sea of Sorrows book (as I’ve heard)… the Risen norn dragon champion in Edge of Destiny, the risen norn dragon champion from personal story (priory line, if you go with the wardens after claw island IIRC)…

It’s the nature of the corruption which differs, as Zhaitan is undeath his corruption is simply that undeath. Jormag is ice, so over time he’s servants become more and more ice covered, Kralkatorrik is crystal so he’s servants become more crystalised. One could speculate that given enough time Zhaitan’s corruption could also change the corrupted, but since Zhaitan was kicking around for a while that’s rather doubtful.

Scarlet only showed signs of physical corruption AFTER dying. “Walking into a bar unnoticed” isn’t a trait dragon champions must have.

I like to think my Necro Charr couldn’t walk into a bar unnoticed, but mostly because he’s so devilishly hansom.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

The eye of Zhaitan isn’t humanoid at all. And the mouth of Zhaitan is bipedal, but it doesn’t look like it was ever human either.

The Eye of Zhaitan were all the kings and queen of Orr (outright stated by King Reza, whom was one). If you look closely at the model, you’ll note that the Eyes of Zhaitan are basically a unigender human body attatched to an anchor and holding a giant eyeball.

Mouths of Zhaitan seem to be a group of beings, including one greatly enlarged human (which is known to happen to dragon minions – the growing in size, that is) which serves as the main body (the others seem to be attached to its back/shoulders? And only partially? Not sure), with its gut twisted into an open mouth. It may have been norn or ogre, but it was once a living being that got twisted greatly, and given the speaking manner, Orrian sounds most likely.

Scarlet could pass as normal (from her appearance). She could wander around a city without attracting attention. That is highly unusual for a dragon champion. Dragon champions tend to stand out. Scarlet seems way too normal.

This is actually the best argument against it, as dragon corruption always includes physical changes alongside the mental ones. And in large amounts.

I do agree that it seems rather unlikely that Scarlet was a conventional dragon champion. I’m still not decided as to whether or not the entity is related to Mordremoth, and if it is, Scarlet is either directly or indirectly an agent, but champion entails A.) the largest degree of the dragon’s will, and B.) full control over the dragon’s minions. Scarlet was convinced she was still working for herself, so it seems unlikely she was a champion in that regard, and she had to go to quite a degree of effort to build an army, which wouldn’t be necessary for a champion. (For those who might point out that maybe Mordremoth doesn’t have an army yet, I would counter that corruption can be spread even when the dragon in question is sleeping, and even without a pre-existing pool, it would’ve made more sense for Scarlet to build up her army that way if the option was available.)

Do keep in mind that both Captain Whiting and the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan perform actions that would seem to be unbeneficial to Zhaitan. If one were to look at Kellach, whom had risen following around and following his orders and emotions, he was even more working against Zhaitan (I theorize he was a dragon champion corrupted indirectly via the artifact, resulting in lacking a completely decayed look – he was certainly discolored).

So I wouldn’t use “seemed to want to work against Mordremoth” as a counter to Scarlet being corrupted – or a potential dragon champion. The lack of using minions? Yes, though.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Well since we don’t know much about Mordremoth we should consider the possibility that unlike the other elder dragons who corrupt from the outside; perhaps Mordremoth corrupts from the inside. The target’s mind or spirit, or both. Which could explain the Nightmare Court, the Giant Jungle Worm, and other “corrupted” living plants that look fine on the outside but behave in an aggressive and adversarial manner.

Makes you wonder what the Pale Tree might have been like had Ventari’s Tablet not influence its growth… for good.

Your post seems to assume that the Ventari’s Tablet – a mere piece of stone with writing scrawled on it – is capable of preventing dragon corruption (something that can only be prevented by the Forgotten’s magic to all known Tyrians). I will like to note that nothing concretely says that the Nightmare Court, Great Jungle Wurm, or “other corrupted living plants” – or the Pale Tree – hold any ties to Mordremoth.

It’s not really transformation so much as corruption. Semantics yes, but it might be more useful to think of it that way. In anycase Sylvari don’t show any physical corruption, Zhaitan can’t raise them, they can’t be branded etc. however mentally Sylvari are very susceptible to corruption. Nightmare Court being a good example. Although we’re fudging around a bit with corruption, since there’s a number of other theories regarding the Nightmare Court and there’s no tangible link between the Nightmare and Dragon Corruption.

Corruption. Transformation. Here, it’s the same thing. Dragon corruption twists both physically and mentally.

Sylvari DIE when touched by dragon corruption. When touched by draconic magic. This is why they cannot become risen or branded. Or whatever Mordremoth’s minions will end up being either, unless Mordremoth had found some work around that ‘immunity’.

The Nightmare Court lack a lot of distinctive things that make dragon minion mentality. Specifically their devotion to a dragon and praising it every other sentence.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

I meant more that Scarlet was trying to assert herself against the entity- unless we want to add to her long line of ridiculousness that she could go toe-to-toe with an Elder Dragon in force of will, it would mean that even if Mordremoth was affecting her he probably wasn’t putting enough into it to put her on champion level.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

I think most people are underestimating the immunity. Even a plant dragon wouldn’t be able to corrupt Sylvari, which I think is caused by the birth of Sylvari. They are born from the mists into a plant hull and that is probably their immunity. Before they can get corrupted, the plant body has to be corrupted and releases the soul before corruption can take hold (just a theory I am working with). If this is true, then nobody can corrupt them actively until they are changed/manifested like the Toxic Sylvari. This doesn’t exclude that she might have communicated with Mordremoth (a possible terrible picture entity), but it denies the corruption.

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I meant more that Scarlet was trying to assert herself against the entity- unless we want to add to her long line of ridiculousness that she could go toe-to-toe with an Elder Dragon in force of will, it would mean that even if Mordremoth was affecting her he probably wasn’t putting enough into it to put her on champion level.

We were told back in September that in her mind, the only thing that might pose a threat to her are the Elder Dragons – so she would at least think she could go toe to toe with an Elder Dragon.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Korval.3751

Korval.3751

Sylvari DIE when touched by dragon corruption. When touched by draconic magic. This is why they cannot become risen or branded. Or whatever Mordremoth’s minions will end up being either, unless Mordremoth had found some work around that ‘immunity’.

How else would a Elder Dragon, specifically the elder dragon of jungles and plants corrupt their servants, champions and minions if not by means of mental telepathy and persuasion. Case in point…

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/short-story-what-scarlet-saw/

BEGIN EXCEPT:

It was then Ceara saw the thorn vine. It emerged from the roots at the base of the [pale] tree and began to climb, wrapping itself around the trunk and scoring the bark with its dusty red barbs. Green-black ichor oozed from these wounds, and the great tree shuddered.

Then Ceara was the vine, squeezing the great tree’s trunk like a desperate lover. The tree struggled against her: she was meant to be part of it, to participate in its grand purpose. Instead, she was no more than an irritant, a provocation.

https://d3b4yo2b5lbfy.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/8d324Pale-Tree-2-590x331.jpg

Now do you see? The Pale Tree’s voice was faint and distant, but it snapped Ceara back to viewing the tree from a distance. If you are not one with what you were born to be, you are lost. Worse, you are dangerous.

Sheer joy surged through Ceara. Dangerous, you say? Her thoughts boomed loud as thunder across the void. So be it.

With the Pale Tree’s desperate words and her own raucous laughter growing echoing across the void, Ceara plunged through the vision of the great tree and beyond.

Scarlet giggled as she raised her hand to her face and watched the red thorn vine chase itself between her fingers. “So much makes sense now. The Pale Tree, the Nightmare Court, Caithe and Faolain…it’s all part of a grand design.

Scarlet’s voice rose as she went on. “I have a great deal of work ahead of me. I don’t know what the world will be when I’m through, but I will very much enjoy finding out. Empires will fall, continents will burn, and when the conflagration is over, I’ll be there to put my stamp on whatever new world this one becomes.”

END EXCEPT

Now pay attention to this part…

BEGIN EXCEPT:

Manic glee flashed in her eyes and she said, “Good-bye, old friend. All good students should take up their master’s mantle and share the wisdom they’ve attained. And I am a very, very good student.”

END EXCEPT

She states “All good students should take up their master’s mantle and share the wisdom they’ve attained.” She calls it “shared wisdom”. I call it mental persuasion. Only an ancient Elder Dragon of immense power through mental persuasion would be able to create these strong visions. And because Mord can only influence plants these visions would only work for creatures like the Sylvari. Why Ceara? It could have been anyone… but perhaps it was her because she put herself in a position mentally to be influenced.

(edited by Korval.3751)

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

I think most people are underestimating the immunity. Even a plant dragon wouldn’t be able to corrupt Sylvari, which I think is caused by the birth of Sylvari. They are born from the mists into a plant hull and that is probably their immunity. Before they can get corrupted, the plant body has to be corrupted and releases the soul before corruption can take hold (just a theory I am working with). If this is true, then nobody can corrupt them actively until they are changed/manifested like the Toxic Sylvari. This doesn’t exclude that she might have communicated with Mordremoth (a possible terrible picture entity), but it denies the corruption.

I think the immunity “stems” from the fact that the Sylvari have no souls. There are mentions in the game of dragon minions having their souls removed so that their bodies can be possessed. For instance there is a ghost in Mount Maelstrom that laments the fate of its body. And there is a Kodan in Frostgorge sound that states that Jormag only corrupts the bodies of Kodan.

If Sylvari, being creatures that came from the dream, are basically spirits, spirits that are inseparable from their bodies it could explain why they die when corrupted.

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

And because Mord can only influence plants

What? That seems unlikely. It’s only called the Jungle Dragon because of its location.

It’s like saying the Orrian dragon can only corrupt Orrians.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

I think most people are underestimating the immunity. Even a plant dragon wouldn’t be able to corrupt Sylvari, which I think is caused by the birth of Sylvari. They are born from the mists into a plant hull and that is probably their immunity. Before they can get corrupted, the plant body has to be corrupted and releases the soul before corruption can take hold (just a theory I am working with). If this is true, then nobody can corrupt them actively until they are changed/manifested like the Toxic Sylvari. This doesn’t exclude that she might have communicated with Mordremoth (a possible terrible picture entity), but it denies the corruption.

I think the immunity “stems” from the fact that the Sylvari have no souls. There are mentions in the game of dragon minions having their souls removed so that their bodies can be possessed. For instance there is a ghost in Mount Maelstrom that laments the fate of its body. And there is a Kodan in Frostgorge sound that states that Jormag only corrupts the bodies of Kodan.

If Sylvari, being creatures that came from the dream, are basically spirits, spirits that are inseparable from their bodies it could explain why they die when corrupted.

We do see some risen with souls, though, sovereign eye/Reza the most prominent example.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

We do see some risen with souls, though, sovereign eye/Reza the most prominent example.

Arguably King Reza’s soul was not in his body. The eye says that the players mentor is “beneath the dragons wings”, which could mean that Zhaitan is holding the souls somewhere or somehow. Or Perhaps Zhaitain only binds the souls of the most powerful of its minions, while the common minions are the soulless shells they act like.

Either way, when the body dies, the soul is free and uncorrupted. Zhaitan seems to corrupt only the body and not the soul. If Sylvari spirits are their body, this wouldn’t work, since corrupting their body would be corrupting their spirit.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

The soul may not be corrupted, but it is definitely tied into the body and forced to be twisted. If anything, I’d say destroying the body/killing the Risen champions actually frees the soul from the corruption/twisting zhaitan put them through.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

How else would a Elder Dragon, specifically the elder dragon of jungles and plants corrupt their servants, champions and minions if not by means of mental telepathy and persuasion. Case in point…

-snip short story excerpt-

Now pay attention to this part…

BEGIN EXCEPT:

Manic glee flashed in her eyes and she said, “Good-bye, old friend. All good students should take up their master’s mantle and share the wisdom they’ve attained. And I am a very, very good student.”

END EXCEPT

She states “All good students should take up their master’s mantle and share the wisdom they’ve attained.” She calls it “shared wisdom”. I call it mental persuasion. Only an ancient Elder Dragon of immense power through mental persuasion would be able to create these strong visions. And because Mord can only influence plants these visions would only work for creatures like the Sylvari. Why Ceara? It could have been anyone… but perhaps it was her because she put herself in a position mentally to be influenced.

Okay, firstly, Abaddon and Kanaxai (a mere demon) were capable of twisting individuals to such extents to.

Secondly, we see the Elder Dragons corrupt with exuding magic – Jormag uses mental persuasions, but it should be noted that Jeff Grubb explicitly stated that each Elder Dragon (and their minions) corrupted differently. Meaning the chances of two Elder Dragons that corrupt via mental persuation is… slim. Kralkatorrik seems to corrupt the physical, Zhaitan focuses on the undead, Primordus focuses on inanimate rocks, and Jormag focuses on the mind. Mordremoth? My bet given all hints – or rather, supposed hints – is that he corrupts plants primarily and that he focuses in poisons (I am of the theory that the toxins of the Tower of Nightmares is Mordremoth-related).

Thirdly… I don’t see what your post has to do with what you quoted.

We still don’t know that the entity was Mordremoth, so we cannot be clear that she was corrupted by Mordremoth either. There are beings beyond Elder Dragons, gods, and powerful demons that can do the effective mind screw (mursaat are known to do that – I give you, The Inquisitor which was capable of taking a person’s thoughts from their head, and wasn’t even a mesmer).

I think the immunity “stems” from the fact that the Sylvari have no souls. There are mentions in the game of dragon minions having their souls removed so that their bodies can be possessed. For instance there is a ghost in Mount Maelstrom that laments the fate of its body. And there is a Kodan in Frostgorge sound that states that Jormag only corrupts the bodies of Kodan.

If Sylvari, being creatures that came from the dream, are basically spirits, spirits that are inseparable from their bodies it could explain why they die when corrupted.

We see many risen who have the original souls – the Risen Keeper of the Temple (Grenth’s temple, part of PS) and the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan (King Reza’s soul and body). While there’s no evidence to point to sylvari having souls, I doubt that is the cause of their immunity.

And about the kodan – I chalk that up to the ego of the kodan, because they think they’re on top of the spiritual food chain. We see outright in Edge of Destiny that Jormag and his champions corrupt the mind of an individual, not just the body. I fail to see why a kodan would be any different. Though we know that Jormag can and will corrupt corpses.

We do see some risen with souls, though, sovereign eye/Reza the most prominent example.

Arguably King Reza’s soul was not in his body. The eye says that the players mentor is “beneath the dragons wings”, which could mean that Zhaitan is holding the souls somewhere or somehow. Or Perhaps Zhaitain only binds the souls of the most powerful of its minions, while the common minions are the soulless shells they act like.

Either way, when the body dies, the soul is free and uncorrupted. Zhaitan seems to corrupt only the body and not the soul. If Sylvari spirits are their body, this wouldn’t work, since corrupting their body would be corrupting their spirit.

He pops out of the Eye’s corpse location…. And the theory is that Zhaitan does, indeed, only binds the souls of the more powerful of its minions.

And I fail to see how spirits – which are not material – can be the same as a material body (even if made out of plants).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

And I fail to see how spirits – which are not material – can be the same as a material body (even if made out of plants).

Spirits don’t have to be immaterial. The separation of the spirit and the physical world is a dualistic idea that comes from Abrahamic religions. Elves, Dryads, Valkyries and more are all examples of physical spirits.

Celtic myth in particular was fairly big on the idea of a spirit world (the sidhe) and the material world overlapping, and of beings that could walk in both worlds, and of places that existed in both worlds at once.

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Posted by: Argon.1563

Argon.1563

I don’t think Scarlet is necessarily a champion of Mordremoth, nor a minion, just some kind of a thrall. Because, as we know, Elder Dragons have the ability to influence people, on a mental level, without actually transforming them to their generic minion state. EG: Risen.

Spoilers below concerning Charr Personal Story.
In the Charr personal story, you meet a Necromancer named Rissa who raises Howl The Brazen from his grave and commands him to attack you, however she is wearing a pendant that some how influences her to the point where she does Zhaitan's bidding, without being completely "corrupted", as she is still alive, not a risen minion.

Because of the above in the spoiler, I believe that Scarlet is only under the mental influence of Mordremoth, and not being directly corrupted/controlled by him, in the same way Rissa was.

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Posted by: Korval.3751

Korval.3751

And because Mord can only influence plants

What? That seems unlikely. It’s only called the Jungle Dragon because of its location.

It’s like saying the Orrian dragon can only corrupt Orrians.

I’m only basing this on what has been released on the official GW2 Wiki.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordremoth

Notice the concept art. Notice there’s not a single non-plant creature. The conclusion, for now, is that Mordremoth’s influence is limited to flora and flora beings… like the Sylvari.

(edited by Korval.3751)

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Posted by: Horst Hortensie.5420

Horst Hortensie.5420

About dragon champions/servants and their own will. Risen example http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Delivering_Justice

Labwan the Deceiver: A pleasure to shed that facade.
Labwan the Deceiver: Behold me as I truly am.
Trahearne: You claim to be Zhaitan’s creature. Yet you speak and act as if untouched by its corruption.
Labwan the Deceiver: My will is Zhaitan’s.
Labwan the Deceiver: You and your troops will be his puppets.

This is one of several encouter with risen champions that claim to be different from mindless minions. They are kind of voluntary helper or hostages, but they do not sound like hostages. It’s their “free will”, whatever it means in this case.

Celtic myth in particular was fairly big on the idea of a spirit world (the sidhe) and the material world overlapping, and of beings that could walk in both worlds, and of places that existed in both worlds at once.

The dream is a separate Tyria (even if under the normal map) and has separate maps. The map of Orr differs already a little. The sylvari are seemingly domestic in this separate dimension and the moment where Caithe joins she has aetherial appearance first in which she cannot do anything. After a moment the Pale Tree sends her into the dream (we don’t see a portal) and she manifests herself within the dream until the end of that story. Maybe even the phasing out of the world is a form of changing your version of Tyria into one of the others. If this is true is gives a lot trouble concerning Malyck, dragon corruption, origin and function of the Pale Tree.

Eye and Mouth of Zhaitan

Both share a design. A human risen bound to the body part of the dragon. In case of the eye we, see the risen on it’s back and on every attack we can get the impression that the eye doesn’t want to do what it does. I case of the mouth we see a risen in a mouth suite. It is not very obvious until we count the arms, two are coming from the chest and holding the collar (like keeping the suite fitting) and two more at the side which apparently belong to the initial mouth.

King Reza: Yes. We were chained to the dragon, corrupted into monsters that bore Zhaitan’s vision and carried out its will. One by one, you have freed us.


is that Zhaitan infected the orrian royals and duct taped them onto the dragon to control the dragon. And before questions arise: Yes, that is exactly what I am trying to say and I am searching evidence against it (most evidence I found against doesn’t stand a closer look).

Slow clap for the great puppet player.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

And because Mord can only influence plants

What? That seems unlikely. It’s only called the Jungle Dragon because of its location.

It’s like saying the Orrian dragon can only corrupt Orrians.

I’m only basing this on what has been released on the official GW2 Wiki.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordremoth

Notice the concept art. Notice there’s not a single non-plant creature. The conclusion, for now, is that Mordremoth’s influence is limited to flora and flora beings… like the Sylvari.

Notice how it’s “concept art” and MUCH of it being for ‘evil sylvari’ designs that weren’t used.

We know nothing about what it’s minions are so far… though I wouldn’t mind seeing fern stalkers (gw1 plant enemies) come back maybe as we explore the jungle

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Posted by: Tipper.7354

Tipper.7354

It strikes me more that the six Elder Dragons are basically aligned with your classic elements. Each one fits the theme with their appearance, minions and (so far as we know) powers. Primordius is Fire, Jormag is Air, Kralkatorrik is Earth, the Deep Sea Dragon is Water, Zhaitan is Death, and Mordremoth is Life.
There’s a lot of potential crossover and varied interpretations, such as whether Ice should count as Water or Air, and whether Mordremoth’s powers have shown alignment to Earth more than Life, but I think the six Elder Dragons do fit into the pattern fairly well.

That being said – and yes, it’s all completely unfounded speculation, but still – it makes sense that the Dragon of Life is able to grow its own minions rather than spreading traditional corruption. Plants, trees, insects, grubs, oakhearts, wurms, and of course the Sylvari. And if we’re talking about how Dragon Champions take unusual forms, let’s not forget that the Pale Tree is not actually the white Sylvari you meet in The Grove. That’s just her avatar. The Pale Tree is actually the entire Grove itself.

The simple fact is that we don’t know anything for sure yet, but the pieces do fit with what we know so far. As for the rest, I guess we’ll find out soon!

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Well, in terms of elements, look at the zephryte magics. The three aspects are all stated to be derived from a form of air magic :P

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Posted by: Tipper.7354

Tipper.7354

Exactly. And the Elemental themes of the Elder Dragons aren’t exactly subtle in the cases of Primordius, Kralkatorrik, Jormag and the Deep Sea Dragon. So if they do fit Fire, Earth, Air and Water, and Zhaitan is Death – which again, is pretty much canon – then having Mordremoth be “Life” rather than “Plants” does seem logical.

And from there, it’s all up to your own interpretation!

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

I think you’re trying too hard to pigeonhole the Elder Dragons into patterns that you’re used to seeing in other games. When it comes right down to it, Kralkatorrik is very different from your traditional elemental earth (Primordus comes closer to that particular style), and none of them have anything to do with air beyond being able to fly (with the exception of the brandstorm, but that’s a byproduct, not a theme).

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Tipper.7354

Tipper.7354

Well, I guess that’s fair to say. I’m trying to make the lore fit my theory. But having admitted that, I still think that it does fit.

Kralkatorrik is different to the “Traditional” element of Earth, but think about it: the most obvious show of power was to turn huge swathes of living things into crystalline golems, more or less. And several of the Branded have abilities that revolve around earthquakes, eruptions and explosions. Sure, they’re not throwing literal dirt clods at you (for the most part, that is – some do), but at the end of the day they’re still stones. Just shinier ones.

As for Jormag, he’s described as a “Living Blizzard” which to me suggests wind as much as water. Chilling mists are part of his theme as well. And besides, how would we define Air? For an Elementalist that means lightning, but let’s be fair – lightning isn’t an exact adaptation of air, and it makes just as much sense as cold does.

I know, I know, it’s not perfect, but it does make a certain amount of sense. And the only thing that we do know about the various Elder Dragons’ abilities is that they are supposed to be different to what you’d expect. On Jormag’s wiki page, for example, it links to an interview with Stéphane Lo Presti and Jeff Grubb, where this is mentioned:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/uploads/gallery/album_163/gallery_3318_163_39486.png

Worth thinking about, at least. Yeah, it’s a wildly unsubstantiated theory, but it does fit!

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

And I fail to see how spirits – which are not material – can be the same as a material body (even if made out of plants).

Spirits don’t have to be immaterial. The separation of the spirit and the physical world is a dualistic idea that comes from Abrahamic religions. Elves, Dryads, Valkyries and more are all examples of physical spirits.

Celtic myth in particular was fairly big on the idea of a spirit world (the sidhe) and the material world overlapping, and of beings that could walk in both worlds, and of places that existed in both worlds at once.

In the GWverse, spirits are immaterial. Doesn’t matter what Celtic, norse, and greek myths say, what matters is the case in the game. And in the game, they are immaterial – they are made of ectoplasm, can go through walls, lack feet (like your Japanese interpretation of spirits) or rather did in GW1 (GW2 mechanics put a special effect around standard models rather than making a new model for spirits like GW1 did, in which spirits in GW1 mostly if not all had invisible feet), and they live in the spirit realm (aka the Mists) rather than the mortal realm.

Spirits in Tyria are immaterial.

I don’t think Scarlet is necessarily a champion of Mordremoth, nor a minion, just some kind of a thrall. Because, as we know, Elder Dragons have the ability to influence people, on a mental level, without actually transforming them to their generic minion state. EG: Risen.

Spoilers below concerning Charr Personal Story.
-snip about Rissa-

I think mechanically she does count as a Risen, it’s just that – like Kellach – she doesn’t hold the decrepid state of corruption. This doesn’t mean she wasn’t fully corrupted – she was, mentally – just that she wasn’t corrupted in the standard methodology of Risen (like Kellach, she was likely corrupted by an artifact).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

And because Mord can only influence plants

What? That seems unlikely. It’s only called the Jungle Dragon because of its location.

It’s like saying the Orrian dragon can only corrupt Orrians.

I’m only basing this on what has been released on the official GW2 Wiki.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordremoth

Notice the concept art. Notice there’s not a single non-plant creature. The conclusion, for now, is that Mordremoth’s influence is limited to flora and flora beings… like the Sylvari.

That concept art in the gallery section being related to Mordremoth is all speculative, added by Tamias (Santax over there). NEVER trust the wiki to be fully accurate, as it is often filled with people’s theorycrafting (especially, sad to say, when Santax is involved).

THose concept art are of early renditions Nightmare Court. Again: NOT RELATED TO MORDREMOTH AT ALL. Santax/Tamias’ addition is purely speculative and quite honestly that section should be removed because there is zero proof that the early renditions of the Nightmare Court concept art will hold any bearing on Mordremoth or its minions. It’s just him fueling his theory that sylvari are dragon minions.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

It strikes me more that the six Elder Dragons are basically aligned with your classic elements. Each one fits the theme with their appearance, minions and (so far as we know) powers. Primordius is Fire, Jormag is Air, Kralkatorrik is Earth, the Deep Sea Dragon is Water, Zhaitan is Death, and Mordremoth is Life.

Jormag is not air. Jormag is ice. He has nothing related to air.

And Kralkatorrik is crystal, but also utilizes earth, fire, and lightning.

And Mordremoth’s only related element is earth presently. Which Primordus also uses.

So your allignment doesn’t really work.

In an interview with GuildMag, Jeff Grubb talks about Elder Dragon corruption and what they corrupt, listing three themes of “what they corrupt” – and what we get is:

“We’ve shown that from the early Eye of the North, and when we designed the Elder Dragons we were looking at them having specialties where they could corrupt more than just one type of substance. Some of them could affect life, some of them could affect inanimate objects, some of them could affect the elements, vegetation, water, you know they all had their some specialty but they also have some overlap […]”

So I don’t think it is very easy to try to list them like you are. Because they can overlap.

(What’s most interesting to me in that quote is his list of “elements, vegetation, water” – separating water from elements; it may have been unintentional, but I think those three link to the “themes” of the Elder Dragons. Kralkatorrik, having used lightning, earth, crystal, sand, and fire in his attacks and minions, would be elements; the DSD would be water; and Mordremoth would be vegetation).

And if we’re talking about how Dragon Champions take unusual forms, let’s not forget that the Pale Tree is not actually the white Sylvari you meet in The Grove. That’s just her avatar. The Pale Tree is actually the entire Grove itself.

What is so unusual about a white barked tree? It isn’t like the Pale Tree is the only sentient or magical tree out there.

Urgoz, all treants (oakhearts, mosshearts, willowhearts, and pinesouls), the Ancestor Trees, and the Terebinth are all magical and/or sentient trees in Tyria.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Tipper.7354

Tipper.7354

Jormag is not air. Jormag is ice. He has nothing related to air.

And Kralkatorrik is crystal, but also utilizes earth, fire, and lightning.

And Mordremoth’s only related element is earth presently. Which Primordus also uses.

So your allignment doesn’t really work.

Well, let’s be fair – if you’re going to unilaterally state that Jormag is not Air, first we have to establish what Air is, and then we have to justify why that’s not him. I’d have thought it was pretty reasonable to say that a Dragon who uses blizzards, storms and subzero temperatures could perfectly reasonably be equated with Air.
And besides, where does it say that because an Elder Dragon is aligned with one Element, they are automatically prevented from using anything but that Element? In the examples of Kralkatorrik or Mordremoth or Primordius seeming to have overlap in their powers, nothing about their themes says that overlapping is against the rules, or even that there are any rules to begin with.
Yes, none of this specifically proves that the Elder Dragons are aligned in the way I suggested, but at the same time it doesn’t in any way disprove it.

What’s most interesting to me in that quote is his list of “elements, vegetation, water” – separating water from elements; it may have been unintentional, but I think those three link to the “themes” of the Elder Dragons. Kralkatorrik, having used lightning, earth, crystal, sand, and fire in his attacks and minions, would be elements; the DSD would be water; and Mordremoth would be vegetation.

Now this could work. More general classifications, and there’s a connection to themes rather than specific classifications. The Dragon of the Ocean, The Dragon of the Jungle, The Dragon of the Deep Earth, The Dragon of the Mountains. Gives more range to their power, less limitation. Though even then, it still means that Mordremoth is more than just The Dragon of Plants.

What is so unusual about a white barked tree? It isn’t like the Pale Tree is the only sentient or magical tree out there.

Urgoz, all treants (oakhearts, mosshearts, willowhearts, and pinesouls), the Ancestor Trees, and the Terebinth are all magical and/or sentient trees in Tyria.

Well yes, but none of those have spawned an entire and seperate sentient race that considers the magical tree to be their mother. They are also not the size of an actual, literal city, and grant visions of the future through an Avatar of themselves. Yeah, there’s nothing so unusual about “A white barked tree”, but you can’t really pretend that The Pale Tree and The Grove are exactly normal or in the same category as a Treant, can you?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Jormag is outright called the Elder Ice Dragon, or the dragon of ice and snow. His corruption always takes the form of shimmering ice. The *ice*brood are beings who’s flesh is slowly turned into ice.

I don’t think you can argue that he’s air just because he uses powerful snowstorms (aka blizzards).

It’d be different if it were a tornado, but a blizzard? That’s just ice and snow moving through the air.

Even if Jormag uses some air, it’s in no more a direction than any other Elder Dragon – especially Kralkatorrik, given how the sun, wind, and lightning aspects come from his champion (Glint).

Now this could work. More general classifications, and there’s a connection to themes rather than specific classifications. The Dragon of the Ocean, The Dragon of the Jungle, The Dragon of the Deep Earth, The Dragon of the Mountains. Gives more range to their power, less limitation. Though even then, it still means that Mordremoth is more than just The Dragon of Plants.

Such classifications take the form of the “deep sea dragon” “Orrian dragon” “desert dragon” and “jungle dragon” – classifications of their location rather than power.

Well yes, but none of those have spawned an entire and seperate sentient race that considers the magical tree to be their mother. They are also not the size of an actual, literal city, and grant visions of the future through an Avatar of themselves. Yeah, there’s nothing so unusual about “A white barked tree”, but you can’t really pretend that The Pale Tree and The Grove are exactly normal or in the same category as a Treant, can you?

Urgoz and Wardens for first point.

Stonewood trees and Echovald Forest trees for the latter. Those things are huge and have entire citadels and cathedrals that are practically Divinity’s Reach sized carved into the latter. Big trees are not unique either.

The Dream seems to be more unique to magical creatures located in the Maguuma Jungle, given the White Stag and its apparent nature and how it is a being within both the Dream and Tyria. The Dream also closely mimics the Mists – which doesn’t make the Pale Tree unique either, given the Voice of the kodan, the Havrouns of the norn, the Six Gods of the humans, or the Spirits of the Wild of the norn (and the connection to the Mists or something akin to the Mits is something that the Elder Dragons lack – the only creature related to the Elder Dragons that can foretell the future is Glint, but she’s called an oracle so it seems unique to her and not to the Elder Dragons).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Tipper.7354

Tipper.7354

I’m not disputing any of your points about Jormag being the Ice Dragon, nor have I ever said that’s the wrong title for him. He is the Ice Dragon, canonically and literally. I’m just saying that, to my mind, he also fits the theme of Air, especially when compared with the others – Primordius is clearly Fire, the Deep Sea Dragon is clearly water, and I still think that Kralkatorrik’s crystals give him strong links to Earth. When balanced against those, to me at least, Jormag matches up with Air.
I’m not saying that we should start calling him the Air Dragon or anything silly like that, and never suggested anything of the sort. I’m also not saying that my way of looking at the Elder Dragons is mutually exclusive with any other interpretations. Heck, I outright admitted that I’m twisting the lore to suit my perspective here, and I’m not even twisting it especially far – just saying that the six Elder Dragons do, in a lot of ways, match up to the six classical elements. Which is not untrue! And that, from that perspective, Mordremoth could reasonably be seen as the element of Life. I’m not saying you’re wrong, because you’re not, but I’m saying that you being right doesn’t mean that I’m wrong either!

And as for the Pale Tree, come on. Yes, there are big trees and there are special trees and there are magical trees, but you cannot seriously be trying to claim that the Pale Tree isn’t a unique being (so far as we know). There are a lot of things that have similarities, but there are a lot of things that are “sort of similar” to a lot of the other Dragon Champions as well, and that’s completely beside the point. I’m just highlighting that the Pale Tree is a being of great power that is unlike any other creature seen before it, and has implied strong connections to an Elder Dragon, and that this is more than enough to imply that it could be a Champion.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I think that Kralkatorrik fits the theme of air FAR better than Jormag ever will.

  1. He uses lightning, a base form of air magic.
  2. His champion’s magic was divided into Wind, Sun, and Lightning Aspects.
  3. He turns his own body into a sandstorm, as well as having branded lightning storms called Brandstorms in his territory.

Though Kralkatorriks’ corruption takes the form of crystal, Kralkatorrik has far more things in relation to air than Jormag ever will. The only relation Jormag has to air is “he has storms” (which can be said for most if not every dragon) and “cold wind is cold” which… is not a relation at all since it doesn’t relate to Jormag, but to coldness. And to relate something to the Elder Dragon just because it relates, loosely, to the element of the Elder Dragon is… just downright silly to me. At such a state, I can claim that Primordus would be tied to the sun.

Don’t try to fit into the “classic elements” just because you “almost can” either. Because these aren’t parts of another story – any other story, lore, or mythology is fully irrelevant here. It can prove to be a potential inspiration, but beyond that, no. And it’s pretty obvious that’s not the case here.

I really don’t think that you “twisting lore” gives you any hold in a discussion on canon lore. And nothing really shows Mordremoth thus far being in any way related to life – there’s really far too little to know about Mordremoth. If any Elder Dragon is a “dragon of life” it’d probably be Primordus, since he’s the only Elder Dragon known to exclusively corrupt inanimate objects (though it’s been said he can corrupt living beings, it has also been said we never seen such happen outright yet). Arguably, Zhaitan can be called life, since he “breaths life” into corpses (resulting in undead albeit) and his minions are constantly preaching about immortality and never going to the Mists or losing loved ones (aka never dying).

On the Pale Tree: yes, it is unique. But not unique because of shape or capabilities, or sentience. And she certainly isn’t unique in a “she’s like a dragon champion” either. I really don’t see any “implied strong connections to an Elder Dragon” either – all I’ve seen on that has been people making connections through similar but unconnected facts. At best, the only connection lies in that the Nightmare is tied to an Elder Dragon and that’s the Pale Tree’s only tie to them or it – her connection to the Dream which is threatened by the Nightmare (and theoretically in turn, the Elder Dragon(s)).

I have yet to see anything of strong evidence to support the claim that the Pale Tree “could be” a dragon champion. Not. A. Single. Thing. Just ‘wishful thinking’ by some that make the leap of “hey, there’s some things that relate the Nightmare to Mordremoth” to “all sylvari are dragon minions and the Pale Tree is its champion!” – there is no middle ground established between these two claims, and it is a mighty large leap to make, that holds no explanation thus far that cannot be countered with actual evidence.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Tipper.7354

Tipper.7354

Look, the Elemental Alignment thing… I can only say so many times that it’s just a perspective for looking at the Elder Dragons and not, in fact, a Canonical Classification that they must adhere to. I like the idea of them aligning to the Elements, I think they kinda fit the molds… you don’t have to agree with me, I’m saying over and over that it’s just a perspective that I like. Any attempt to lay it out factually is doomed from the start because I’m openly acknowledging it’s not a canon thing, so can we agree to disagree on that one?

As for the Pale Tree… well, since this one is less a perspective and more a theory about a factual status, let’s see what we’ve got. You want facts? Here we go.

The first and most obvious thing is to establish that the Sylvari are heavily implied to be Mordremoth’s creations. The Sylvari have only just begun to appear before the awakening of Mordremoth – much like the other Dragons, where their minions mobilised before the Dragon awoke. Their immunity to the Dragon Corruption is something not shared by any other life form save for those already corrupted, which suggests a further connection. Risen do not become Branded, Destroyers do not become Icebrood, and Sylvari don’t become any of them. So either they have a completely random and mysterious immunity to Corruption, or else it’s explained by the fact that they are, effectively, already corrupted.
There’s the obvious artwork of plant-based dragons that others have linked in many cases before. Zone Green of the Crucible of Eternity has an obvious plants-and-nature theme, and Mordremoth himself is officially referred to as the Jungle Dragon. We learn in the Personal Story that the Pale Tree came from a seed found deep in the Maguuma Jungle, and there may be others like it.
If anything, Scarlet Briar is the best evidence. When Cera attempted to look into the Eternal Alchemy, the experiment she underwent was designed to break down barriers in her mind and give her visions of things greater than herself. When she was about to break one last barrier in her mind, the Pale Tree telepathically begged her to stop, but she went on, and encountered the will of Mordremoth. Meaning that the Jungle Dragon’s will was already present in her mind, but hidden and dormant behind a barrier that the Pale Tree knew of, instinctively knew Cera was about to breach, and desperately tried to stop her. That’s pretty unequivocal that the Jungle Dragon had a connection to her mind. And while it’s not in itself solid proof that Mordremoth was able to connect to Cera’s mind specifically because she was Sylvari, the actions of the Pale Tree strongly suggest it was.
Adding it all up, we have the highly-suggestive origins and traits of the Sylvari Race, the few known themes of Mordremoth thus far, and the fact that we’ve only ever seen one of its agents, and that was a Sylvari who found its will existing inside her own mind. I’d say all of that forms reasonably strong evidence that the Sylvari could be the minions of Mordremoth. It answers a lot of existing questions without contradicting anything that we know for certain. It can’t explicitly be proven yet, but then that is sort of the point of theories as opposed to canon fact.

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Posted by: Tipper.7354

Tipper.7354

All that said, if we can accept (if only for the purpose of this discussion) that the Sylvari are the creations of Mordremoth, then we can look at the Pale Tree. It’s the origin, home, and leader of the Sylvari Race all at the same time. One sentient being of enormous size, capable of communication through great magical power and creation of an Avatar, that connects to the minds of all of its children. If the Sylvari are Dragon Minions, then the Pale Tree is the greatest of all of them – in a way, it is all of them.
Now, it’s established that Dragon Champions are free-willed, capable of rebellion, and can be active while their masters sleep: we need only look at Glint for that. We also know that Ronan took the Seed of the Pale Tree from a cave with many others like it, guarded by dangerous plants, and carried it far from where he found it, tending to it with Ventari’s help. When it grew, away from the influence of Mordremoth, it had true free will – something possessed only by the most powerful Dragon Minions. It’s no drone or mindless soldier, it’s capable of independent thought. The only Dragon Minion we’ve ever seen capable of actively turning against its master was Glint, an established Champion, and the Pale Tree not only possesses the same level of freedom – it was able to pass that free will onto its children, while retaining a connection to them all through the Dream and making itself into a mother-figure.
There is no doubt that it possesses incredible magical power. It can see the future and grant visions, it protects and guides an entire sentient race, it can create Sylvari at a rate with no known limit, and a single thorn from the Tree was Caladbolg – a blade which was specifically good at destroying the Corruption of another Elder Dragon. And yes, while size is not itself a specific indicator of power, it’s still an enormous, city-sized sentient being with incredible wisdom and intelligence.

Now, none of that was hypothetical. The only thing about all of that which we don’t have absolute proof of is that Mordremoth created the Sylvari race, and there is a lot of evidence to imply that it did. If we grant that single assumption for the purpose of the theory, then when you combine it all and lay it out together, this is what we know to be absolute, factual canon about the Pale Tree…

Question about Elder Dragon Champions

in Lore

Posted by: Tipper.7354

Tipper.7354

The Pale Tree is a city-sized being of immense magical power. It can create a limitless army of smaller minions from its own pods, that are connected telepathically to both the Tree and one another via the Dream. Despite being a Dragon Minion, it is in possession of free will, to the extent that it can grant its own children free will and actively choose the knowledge they are born with. It houses these children within its own body, sending them out to destroy the minions of the other Elder Dragons due to their immunity to the Corruption they spread. The one thing it seems to fear is Mordremoth itself, to the extent that it actively shields their minds from its influence, and the only being we canonically know to have communicated with and openly served Mordremoth was one of the Pale Tree’s rebellious children. It is unquestionably the most powerful creation of Mordremoth seen thus far, it is possessed of abilities and a sense of self that are rivaled only by other Dragon Champions, and it very specifically possesses Free Will to a level that only Glint has ever matched before.
Frankly, if it’s not a Dragon Champion, then presumably Mordremoth’s actual Champions are literal Gods, because they’d have to be in order to be more powerful than the Pale Tree.

So there we go. You wanted evidence to argue that the Pale Tree was a Champion of Mordremoth. How’s that?

EDIT: Sorry for the triple-post, but it was the only way to get all this wall of text out properly. I apologise to the families anyone who died of sheer boredom upon looking at it and solemnly swear I shall never do it again.

(edited by Tipper.7354)