The Mystery of Countess Anise

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

I don’t think there’s any sense in claiming that it’s impossible… but before I gave the theory any serious consideration, I would at least want to hear a theoretical motive, something the OP admitted they couldn’t manage. What’s changed in the last 70 years that would make Livia want a cover identity?

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

I don’t think there’s any sense in claiming that it’s impossible… but before I gave the theory any consideration, I would at least want to hear a theoretical motive, something the OP admitted they couldn’t manage. What’s changed in the last 70 years that would make Livia want a cover identity?

Agreed.

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

I don’t think there’s any sense in claiming that it’s impossible… but before I gave the theory any serious consideration, I would at least want to hear a theoretical motive, something the OP admitted they couldn’t manage. What’s changed in the last 70 years that would make Livia want a cover identity?

That’s a good question. Since creating this thread I have reread Sea of Sorrows more closely, and something caught my attention which I have rambled about at length to Titus. You can read it over at the link, but the main thing to take from it is this: the Shining Blade’s oath is to the throne…but it’s very specific. Livia’s oath is to ensure that the royal line continues to rule. There are rumours that the Shining Blade doesn’t care who sits on the throne, so long as it is a descendant of Salma the Good. They ensure that Kryta and the line of Salma continue. Shining Blade can’t let Kryta fall to Orr…but they can support an alternate heir to the throne. This, of course, came at a time when the young Prince Edair’s determination to sabotage the newly-rebuilt Lion’s Arch was endangering the entire kingdom of Kryta. The suggestion, as I read it, was that Livia would be (at a push) willing to depose a monarch that proved a threat to the survival of the Salmaic dynasty. It turned out that Livia was still following the last orders of King Baede, whose orders, since Prince Edair had not yet been coronated, technically superseded his. And of course, by the conclusion of the Great Krytan Blockade, Edair had proven himself an able if uncertain commander, and changed his position on Lion’s Arch completely.

And yet, only 9 years later, King Roderick built Divinity’s Reach. Clearly something went wrong in the meantime. Definitely bears thinking about.

Victory Is Life Eternal [VILE]

(edited by Tamias.7059)

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Posted by: Yalora Istairiea.6287

Yalora Istairiea.6287

For what it’s worth.

Did anyone ever notice that during “The Commander” (the human Lev 10 personal story), that Countess Anise is able to instantly summon 8 Phantasmal Swordsmen in an effort to best Commander Serentine and his guards?

Now I don’t know about you folks but My poor Mes is only able to summon 3 Swordsmen at any one time, assuming I have a full minute to do so.

Don’t you find it odd that her abilities seem to be in a completely different ability level then this humble Hero of Shaemoor? Granted, maybe it is because she is a ‘Champion’ but then again…maybe not.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

It’s said throughout Edge of Destiny that both Anise and Jennah are very powerful mesmers.

And if you remember, Kasmeer summoned 4 clones instantly during the fight with Scarlet.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Narcemus.1348

Narcemus.1348

Koro Sagewind summoned an entire illusory army that kept an army of charr busy for days, if I remember right. There are some really incredibly talented characters out there…

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Koro Sagewind summoned an entire illusory army that kept an army of charr busy for days, if I remember right. There are some really incredibly talented characters out there…

Only for a day/afternoon. IIRC, by the time the sun set she arrived at the camp, and shortly later/next morning the charr arrived. She was also blind and bleeding, and basically used up her own life in making/maintaining the illusion.

She also at one point made an illusion the size of the eye of the north, but it left her blinded for a while.

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Posted by: Sublimatio.6981

Sublimatio.6981

While true, that still wouldn’t explain just giving up necro powers and NEVER using them. Anise uses pure mesmer abilities, never anything necro like.

Actually, necromancers in the human lore are often looked upon as not trustworthy and devious. That would explain why she could hide it.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

While true, that still wouldn’t explain just giving up necro powers and NEVER using them. Anise uses pure mesmer abilities, never anything necro like.

Actually, necromancers in the human lore are often looked upon as not trustworthy and devious. That would explain why she could hide it.

No, they really aren’t.

Necromancers are servants of grenth. Grenth is widely worshipped and the god of justice (at least in GW1). In Nightfall a necromancer comes in as reinforcements, as is treated as a major ally.

Human necromancers are never truly treated with disdain or dislike in GW1 at any point, bar two ascalonian necromancers who went evil (1 went insane, the other started experimenting on fellow refugees). If they were so distrusted and viewed with dislike, why do priests of grenth walk around openly? Why do necromancers walk around openly, and are just as respected as any other? Why is there an dialogue in DR about a father trying to teach his son about grenth to ‘follow in his footsteps’ and become a necromancer?

The only real time I saw necromancers being viewed badly was the one Norn challenge quest. But that isn’t a human.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Actually, Kalavier, Necromancers ARE looked down upon by most humanity due to a misunderstanding (and vocal minority of power-abusing necromancers such as Verata and Oberan) of necromancy. This is not just in humanity, but all non-sylvari races actually. And this disdain on necromancy grew more with the double onslaught of Orrian undead (by Khilbron and by Zhaitan).

If you think that necromancers are never truly treated with disdain or dislike in GW1, then you didn’t play necromancer-only quests much. It’s rather made a point that they’re misunderstood – and hated by monks especially. This is pointblank shown if both a necromancer and a monk player go out together in pre-Searing and neither did that first quest.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Erukk.1408

Erukk.1408

Personally, I don’t think Livia would care much how people view her or her methods, as long as they stay out of her way.

Though, I think I said in another Livia thread a long while ago, I can easily see her stepping down. While it might be the leader of the Shining Blade, the role of Master Exemplar is a bit constraining, since they have to be constantly within a safe distance of the King/Queen at all time to protect them.

As long as there was a suitable candidate for the role, I can see Livia stepping down to a lower position to make better use of her skills elsewhere. As for Anise’s and Livia’s supposed similar personality, it could be possible that Anise worked under/apprenticed for Livia after she joined the Shining Blade. If Anise showed the promise of leadership skills, work ethic, and conviction for the job, Livia could have basically groomed her for the role of Master Exemplar.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Actually, Kalavier, Necromancers ARE looked down upon by most humanity due to a misunderstanding (and vocal minority of power-abusing necromancers such as Verata and Oberan) of necromancy. This is not just in humanity, but all non-sylvari races actually. And this disdain on necromancy grew more with the double onslaught of Orrian undead (by Khilbron and by Zhaitan).

If you think that necromancers are never truly treated with disdain or dislike in GW1, then you didn’t play necromancer-only quests much. It’s rather made a point that they’re misunderstood – and hated by monks especially. This is pointblank shown if both a necromancer and a monk player go out together in pre-Searing and neither did that first quest.

My necromancer was a factions one, but I’ve seen that dialogue from the wiki. It does not sound extremely hateful and nothing in the manuals imply necromancers are disliked. When the one arrives in the battle of Gendara, she is not treated badly, but instead of valuable ally. Eve is accepted by Mhenlo and the others and also not distrusted.

A single monk disliking necromancers does not = a trend. Especially since we see necromancers widely in various factions across the globe, and even in power.

Ciglo the Monk: “Would that you would see the light, Verata, but alas, I fear you never will.”
Verata the Necromancer bows to Ciglo the Monk.

Doesn’t come across as super hateful to me. And again, one monk growling at necromancers doesn’t mean they all do.
Just checked all the primary profession necromancer quests (almost all being prophecies and pre-searing), but none of them struck me as being hateful toward necromancers. Perhaps I was wrong in saying “never”, but it doesn’t strike me as the typical response toward a necromancer. At least factions and Nightfall doesn’t show such beliefs much at all.

Morgan’s line mentions “Many people think necromancers are evil”, but… that’s not really shown. And given how they are everywhere, and in almost all major factions(Hell, a great house of the Kurzicks is lead by a necromancer… As well as the fact Grenth is a god and worshipped widely, including by necromancers, and everything I recall pointed at them being treated as “Dark but not evil”…)… Also, even if necromancers were despised, or ARE despised now (Which I strongly do not believe for the latter, and don’t truly believe for the first.), why would Livia hide her necromancer abilities? She’s old enough and powerful enough to just ignore random citizens who raise a stink about it. Or simply fade into the background and not appear in public.

It definitely doesn’t strike me as something that’d cause her to choose to change appearance and not use her full powers.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Personally, I don’t think there’s any real hate towards necros, just unease coupled with a “why would anybody like that sort of thing?” mentality. Sort of like gravediggers and undertakers in our own world (a comparison directly made in GW1): most people consider them morbid and/or creepy, but hardly anyone would consider them an outright villain. That said, I don’t think Livia’s the type to avoid an offputting reputation, and my question still stands: why would that have changed in the last 70 years when it didn’t in the 180 prior?

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)

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Posted by: Diovid.9506

Diovid.9506

Kalavier, even in Factions there are some mentions of a somewhat negative view on necromancy.

For instance, professor Gai says: “The onus is again upon the Ritualists to attend to the Necromancers’ foul leavings.”

And, Togo himself says: “I think you will find [Headmaster Kuju] quite pleasant, for a necromancer”

Also, about Grenth being widely worshipped, that is true but he is also feared and even some Necromancer consider him to be too dark.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

There have been quite a few cases where it appears that human spellcasters are capable of awesome feats well outside the bounds of normal characters without the aid of technomagic or other outside aids – although it’s often harmful to the human in question. It’s probably part of humans regarding magic as more of an art than a science – they actually have more ‘natural talent’ than the asura, but the more logical minds of the asura are generally more adept at making use of what they do have. Mind you, the sylvari seem to have a similar edge (Trahearne summoning HOW MANY flesh golems?).

On humans and necromancers, I think Dougal Keane summed it up best (I claim the following quote under fair use, being less than 3 chapters or 10% of the book, whichever is lower, and being presented for educational purposes):

“Necromancers among the humans have been considered rather unsettling for centuries, even though they work in magic like elementalists, mesmers, and other practitioners.”

There isn’t any universal hatred going on, but distaste is fairly common. More rational humans get past this distaste by logically reasoning it’s just another branch of magic, but when push comes to shove, most humans would rather deal with an elementalist, mesmer or guardian than a necromancer.

It wasn’t mentioned there, but I think it was mentioned somewhere that the Risen have caused necromancers to become more disliked due to people drawing suprious connections between mortal necromancy and undead invaders. This might, in fact, give a possible explanation as to what changed – Zhaitan’s rising and the Risen might have pushed the apparently immortal necromancer to decide it was time to leave the public eye.

Or Zhaitan’s corruption of Orr affected the Sceptre, with bad results for Livia.

That said, I think the most likely explanation is simply that Livia found something more important to do.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Perhaps the “hated by monks” was a misremembrance, but they are looked down upon in general. In an interview, Jeff Grubb even said such well before release and that the rise of Orr made this view greater. In another interview, I think this was with Ree, she said that sylvari are typically the only race that doesn’t view necromancers poorly and thus has the most necromancers compared to other races.

Another part in Ghosts of Ascalon that shows this is when Killeen raises the corpse of a recently fallen Vanguard, disturbing the entire group.

As for the mention of pre-Searing, I was actually thinking of Verata’s lines to player monks, and Ciglo’s lines to player necromancers. Respectfully they are:

“Oh, look, a Monk! Afraid of the dark? You should be…”
and
“I can’t help you, Necromancer. The powers of darkness have no place in the light.”

And though Verata lacks a unique line for mesmers, Sebedoh has one for necromancers:

“Oh look, a Necromancer. ‘Tis one thing to exploit the dead, and entirely another to dominate the living. I don’t expect you to understand. Talk to Verata. You’ll know him by the smell.”

However, to all other professions they say the same generic lines. Showing a hostility between the two professions. Similarly, we see that Howland has unique lines for mesmers respectfully – which highlights the rivalry between those two professions just like the later mesmer profession shows vice-versa (which is also shown throughout here and there). And there’s similar between ranger and warrior (though any hostility between those two professions are less highlighted than between the caster professions).

The dialogue between the trainers also show something interesting: Verata never once talks to any of them, and Howland is disturbed by Verata (and his kindness in bowing), while Artemis and Sebedoh make jokes at him (though Artemis sounds more well-meaning than Sebedoh). Van also has a grim view of Verata (though this is not surprising given Verata himself).

The hostility isn’t to all of one profession (example: Vassar, whom mentions rivalry with elementalism, and Ralena, an elementalist). But it exists.

A lot of the “uniqueness” to personalities between the professions have greatly reduced with GW2, but in GW1 there were clear traits that fit each profession more than others, with them changing ever so slightly between continents (for example, Tyrian elementalists are constantly in pursuit of knowledge, while Canthan elementalists are more about combat and power, closest to Tyrian elementalists being pursuit of new more powerful means of combat). But throughout all three continents, and even in GW2, the distrust of necromancy has remained.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Kalavier, even in Factions there are some mentions of a somewhat negative view on necromancy.

For instance, professor Gai says: “The onus is again upon the Ritualists to attend to the Necromancers’ foul leavings.”

And, Togo himself says: “I think you will find [Headmaster Kuju] quite pleasant, for a necromancer”

Also, about Grenth being widely worshipped, that is true but he is also feared and even some Necromancer consider him to be too dark.

Is Gai the spirit, or a living person? If a spirit, would stand he could be unsettled by the fact of bodies being used.

Also, Togo’s line doesn’t really show any distrust or dislike… it’s just “Kuju is more pleasant then most necromancers… and they typically deal with dead things so they aren’t the most happy people around.”

Now, I can understand a general “They deal with corpses and death… so that’s kinda creepy.” But not “Ew, necromancer. I don’t trust that person.” GW never came across to me like that at all. Necromancers were socially accepted. Maybe not invited to every party, or liked universally, but not treated as evil and somebody to distrust completely.

Some monks (and/or ritualists) not liking necromancers and the opposite way isn’t that odd, and that’s not including the semi-silly/non-serious nature of the wintersday Grenth vs Dwayna. But I wouldn’t go as far to say all citizens use that. Because you know, healing and protection vs death, reanimation, and curses. (general magic focus).

Even then, I think it wouldn’t be enough for Livia to change her appearance over it, or stop using those abilities when the safety of the Queen is DIRECTLY threatened (Human storyline where the corrupted Seraph enters the throne room with a bunch of Risen). Maybe she took a back seat and let Anise take over guarding the queen while she focuses on other threats. Maybe she just took a vacation. I don’t think random civilian views of necromancers would affect her (being easily… 250-270+ years old? I know my necromancer was 40ish as of EOTN, and is 300ish as of current date GW2)

editish. Okay, looking over, I can but SOME dislike, as they are surrounded by death/dead things (like morgue workers). But not widespread everybody hates necromancers… because otherwise they wouldn’t walk openly and freely throughout the world, and not hide their profession (Like a Wow warlock does for example).

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Gai is the living person, but it’s worth remembering that he talks down to everybody who happens not to be a ritualist.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

We know how Vassar and his rivalry with elementalists worked out, though. :P

Less flippantly, the impression I remember having from prerelease interviews and GoA is that asura don’t see a problem with necromancers either – to them, like the sylvari, it’s just another branch of magic. In Ghosts of Ascalon, Dougal notes that asura are held to a different standard because they look different and thus can be expected to act different. Sylvari, by contrast, look almost human and thus it’s more shocking when they act in ways against human norms. It’s kind of like Uncanny Valley except taking behaviour into account.

So, asura and sylvari view necromancy as just another form of magic, although it does seem to be less popular than mesmerism and elementalism (in the sense that less asura and sylvari choose to learn it, not that there’s any stigma to it). The race for whom necromancy seems to be most popular compared to other magic types is the (non-Flame) charr – possibly because, while they dislike magic in general, necromancy is more associated with Ash then Flame.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: lakdav.3694

lakdav.3694

This ‘rivalry’ between magical professions is nowhere stronger or even as strong as rivalry between charr legions or asura colleges. If anything i would compare it to the difference between real subjects like math, chemistry and physics, and humane subjects, like grammar, history and literature. Engineers scoff at phylosophers, poets scoff at mathematicians.

On that level that is no bigger difference than between elemental and chaos/illusion magic. If the common man would have a bit of sense, they would be more uncomfortable about mesmers who creep into their minds and perception rather than necromancers.

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Posted by: lakdav.3694

lakdav.3694

By common sense, asura would even encourage necromancy. Some (not all) of the greatest minds of the species were necromancers, and golemancy is connected to necromancy on more aspects than one (especially with the Inquest around, fusing mortal souls into golems regularly.)

But admitedly, what the asura think is of little consequence to Livia changing professions or not.

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

New theory: Livia is Liadri! :P

One aspect to Livia’s character that I think has yet to be fully explored is the theme of ‘sacrifice’. Her GW:EN manual entry mentions that she uses her skills as a necromancer to seek a weapon of power that would bring an ultimate end to the Krytan civil war, and that she is willing to risk everything for peace. More specifically, she is willing to sacrifice her life…and the lives of those around her. This is brought up again in Ogden’s Benediction (“New sacrifices would be made”), and her dialogue, too, says “We must all make sacrifices”. It seems to be a hugely important aspect to her character, and yet it isn’t mentioned explicitly anywhere.

This seems to be a scrapped storyline for Livia. ANet weren’t necessarily sure what the revelation that Livia finds the Scepter of Orr meant when they included it in Ogden’s Benediction. In the GW:EN epilogue, Livia states that she is heading to Arah to seek the Scepter of Orr (we don’t know how it got there). But in the War in Kryta, which is chronologically set after the epilogue, we see Livia but the Scepter of Orr is not seen or mentioned, suggesting one of a few things:

  1. The Scepter of Orr is not the “weapon of power” that Livia sought to end the Krytan civil war. This seems unlikely to me, given that that idea comes from the GW:EN manual, and it is in the course of GW:EN that she finds it.
  2. Livia did not find the Scepter of Orr until after the conclusion of the Krytan civil war. When the epilogue dialogue was written, there were no plans for anything like Guild Wars Beyond, and it seems that the final defeat of the White Mantle was supposed to happen “off-screen”, and it involved Livia, the Scepter of Orr, and some sort of sacrifice. This is supported in the book timelines, which state that it was 1088 rather than 1080 when Kryta finally consolidated under Queen Salma’s rule.

The question is, if Livia pops up again, will the theme of sacrifice come with her?

Victory Is Life Eternal [VILE]

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Posted by: VergilDeZaniah.3295

VergilDeZaniah.3295

Livia was still herself in 1256AE, and she prevented Risen from aboarding the ship she was on. She has learned Orrian magic, and she has kept her youth, that’s all we know.

I don’t get why she would have kept her appearance for around 170 years yet changed for 70 years…

Guild leader of The Nephilim of Elysium.

Son of Elonia.

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Posted by: Retsuko.2035

Retsuko.2035

It would be fun if Livia is still alive. If so, she hasn’t been showing up yet. She might have run off to cantha? Wasnt she last seen on a ship near Orr?

As for the scepter of orr, i didnt see any info of where it is now. The most logical explanation would be that the scepter is given to Livia’s successor as leader of the shining blade.

Retsu ~ Inner Monkey [IM] ~ Piken Square

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

It would be fun if Livia is still alive. If so, she hasn’t been showing up yet. She might have run off to cantha? Wasnt she last seen on a ship near Orr?

As for the scepter of orr, i didnt see any info of where it is now. The most logical explanation would be that the scepter is given to Livia’s successor as leader of the shining blade.

Or she’s behind the scenes, doing things without anybody noticing. Perhaps going after white mantle forces.

As for the scepter of Orr, it’s an ancient, super powerful artifact. If it’s still around, it’s either in a vault or with Livia.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

I don’t think the Scepter of Orr would become a badge of office, just because it would risk becoming only that. An artifact of that power must require a heap of magical experience to use properly, and making that a required part of qualifications for Master Exemplar would cause more troubles than it might solve. What if the times demanded, or the best available candidate was, a warrior or similarly non-magical fellow? What if the Scepter’s true powers require a necromancer, or a specific subset of necromancy? Would you make your top position available only to highly trained members of the least popular caster profession? Would you let someone who couldn’t tap the artifact’s power squander its potential? Why do either of those things, when it just narrows your options?

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Avatar Rage.4369

Avatar Rage.4369

I am just gonna throw my hat into the ring here and share my theory.

Anise is both Queen Jennah and Livia. Livia and Anise share a few personality traits with each other, strong, determined, deceptive, etc. This is what most people jump too when they link Anise with Livia and it is understandable why they would. But the problem I see here is the complete profession shift.

So throughout the GW2 lore we are reminded that Queen Jennah is a powerful Mesmer. Yet we see nothing of her powers in terms of combat, they are usually in the form tricks and deceptions for her foes. What if Anise is just another one of her deceptions? Even through all of these tricks she is still considered to be honest. This strikes me as a bit odd. Why would such a powerful character hide her strength? well maybe she is hiding it in plain sight, where all can see.

Livia is hundreds of years old in GW2 and it would be strange to have such an ancient figure in the public eye. Jennah could mask her and act through her, Livia acts a conduit for Jennah’s power, in terms of her combat prowess. She does not shatter at the touch of others because the illusion is a mere mask and not a true clone.

This allows Livia to serve the Queen and remain in the public eye. With the Queen acting as a relative pacifist, taking defensive actions and using here powers as a super megaphone (see Edge of Destiny). It allows her to look defenceless in the face of danger, with an Anise mask as a weapon to strike with minimal blame directed at here. Livia also serves her purpose and remains in her position with a new face and guise.

Of course this assumes that Anise is not just Anise, which is actually just as likely.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

This ‘rivalry’ between magical professions is nowhere stronger or even as strong as rivalry between charr legions or asura colleges. If anything i would compare it to the difference between real subjects like math, chemistry and physics, and humane subjects, like grammar, history and literature. Engineers scoff at phylosophers, poets scoff at mathematicians.

On that level that is no bigger difference than between elemental and chaos/illusion magic. If the common man would have a bit of sense, they would be more uncomfortable about mesmers who creep into their minds and perception rather than necromancers.

To the first – I’d probably say it’s about the same, except that mesmers, elementalists and necromancers usually don’t end up brawling like the charr legions sometimes do. However, that’s likely cultural rather than a distinction in the degree of rivalry – charr culture epitomises brawling as a method of dispute resolution, while asura and intellectual humans prefer to snipe at each other verbally.

To the second: Rationally, yes, but who said that common people uneducated in magic will have the more rational fears?

It’s worth noting that at least historically necromancers were just as capable of hitting people with curses and other afflictions without them knowing a necromancer was a source. And somebody who comes down with an unexplained illness is probably more inclined to blame a necromancer’s malice than someone who makes a bad decision is to blame a mesmer (although the latter could certainly happen!).

I think the distinction is, though, that mesmers are much better ‘people persons’ – as you would expect by their discipline. Necromancers are also at a disadvantage due to the creepy subject, and most necromancers give an impression of not caring less about what the living think about them. Mesmers, though… controlling perceptions is what they do. They make themselves glamorous, attractive, approachable people, they keep secret the things that would wig out the general populace if they knew, while showcasing the abilities that they want common people to focus on on the proverbial (and, in some cases like Norgu and Althea in GW1, literal) stage.

Basically, mesmers avoided stigma because they’re much better at managing how people see them.

By common sense, asura would even encourage necromancy. Some (not all) of the greatest minds of the species were necromancers, and golemancy is connected to necromancy on more aspects than one (especially with the Inquest around, fusing mortal souls into golems regularly.)

I don’t think there’s any asura discouragement of necromancy… there are just less takers.

It’s just that, to the typical asura, which is more interesting? Elementalists deal with and control the very building blocks of matter, with control over fire, earth, air/lightning and water being useful in building and working experimental machines as well as being a worthwhile study for its own discoveries. Mesmers deal in the properties of time, space, the mind, and magic itself. Necromancy, on the other hand, is mucking around with dead stuff. It may not be a fair attitude*, but it matches what we see of asura inventions – gates are mesmer-like, most golems are powered by elemental spirits, and most of the asura research projects we see are related to elemental or pure magical forces in general.

And it could just simply be that, to the typical asura, elementalism and mesmerism is just “cooler”, for want of a better word, than necromancy.

*In fact, we have hard evidence, in the form of Oola and Blimm, that necromancy should be more favoured among asura because of its applications in golemancy, but they seem to be discoveries that the asura have lost.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

I don’t think the Scepter of Orr would become a badge of office, just because it would risk becoming only that. An artifact of that power must require a heap of magical experience to use properly, and making that a required part of qualifications for Master Exemplar would cause more troubles than it might solve. What if the times demanded, or the best available candidate was, a warrior or similarly non-magical fellow? What if the Scepter’s true powers require a necromancer, or a specific subset of necromancy? Would you make your top position available only to highly trained members of the least popular caster profession? Would you let someone who couldn’t tap the artifact’s power squander its potential? Why do either of those things, when it just narrows your options?

Particularly since, when you think about it, a mesmer would be expected to make a better spymaster than a necromancer, and that’s pretty much what the Master Exemplar acts as. Consider all those times in the human personal stories when Anise puts an illusion on the PC and others – a necromancer wouldn’t have that advantage.

One could see the Sceptre being granted to the highest-ranking necromancer in the Shining Blade, as long as said necromancer was considered sufficiently loyal to be trusted with such an artifact (while the Shining Blade are likely trusted with a lot, there are probably still degrees, and we are talking about the Scepter of Orr here).

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Erukk.1408

Erukk.1408

Particularly since, when you think about it, a mesmer would be expected to make a better spymaster than a necromancer, and that’s pretty much what the Master Exemplar acts as. Consider all those times in the human personal stories when Anise puts an illusion on the PC and others – a necromancer wouldn’t have that advantage.

I couldn’t help but think of something awful about this.

Necromancer Master Exemplar: Here. I stitched together something you could wear as a disguise. The bandits will never notice y….
Player: By the Six! Is this human skins!?

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

That’s not just awful, that’s baa-d

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Livia did not find the Scepter of Orr until after the conclusion of the Krytan civil war. When the epilogue dialogue was written, there were no plans for anything like Guild Wars Beyond, and it seems that the final defeat of the White Mantle was supposed to happen “off-screen”, and it involved Livia, the Scepter of Orr, and some sort of sacrifice. This is supported in the book timelines, which state that it was 1088 rather than 1080 when Kryta finally consolidated under Queen Salma’s rule.

Two things:

1) Nothing says that she went to Arah immediately after the Epilogue.
2) It was made explicitly clear that the White Mantle aren’t the only issue. In Eye of the North there’s mention of multiple warlords, iirc, and at the end of War in Kryta the Shining Blade in Lion’s Arch Keep says this: “The White Mantle were one among many threats to the queen. I hope the others learn from their defeat. I’d hate to have to clean my blade again.” So it isn’t surprising it took 8 more years to unify Kryta, when they had more than just the White Mantle to deal with. Openly, the White Mantle were defeated at the Battle for Lion’s Arch – this is the entire point behind Keiran’s quests during Hearts of the North, showing that they went into hiding during this time when they knew most of their forces may be defeated.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

Livia did not find the Scepter of Orr until after the conclusion of the Krytan civil war. When the epilogue dialogue was written, there were no plans for anything like Guild Wars Beyond, and it seems that the final defeat of the White Mantle was supposed to happen “off-screen”, and it involved Livia, the Scepter of Orr, and some sort of sacrifice. This is supported in the book timelines, which state that it was 1088 rather than 1080 when Kryta finally consolidated under Queen Salma’s rule.

Two things:

1) Nothing says that she went to Arah immediately after the Epilogue.
2) It was made explicitly clear that the White Mantle aren’t the only issue. In Eye of the North there’s mention of multiple warlords, iirc, and at the end of War in Kryta the Shining Blade in Lion’s Arch Keep says this: “The White Mantle were one among many threats to the queen. I hope the others learn from their defeat. I’d hate to have to clean my blade again.” So it isn’t surprising it took 8 more years to unify Kryta, when they had more than just the White Mantle to deal with. Openly, the White Mantle were defeated at the Battle for Lion’s Arch – this is the entire point behind Keiran’s quests during Hearts of the North, showing that they went into hiding during this time when they knew most of their forces may be defeated.

I read Keiran’s dialogue in Hearts of the North more as letting us know that we’ve defeated the White Mantle and they won’t be back any time soon, but at the same time they do still exist and could potentially pose a threat in the future (i.e. Guild Wars 2).

Livia finds out about the Scepter of Orr during the course of the Eye of the North story, and her dialogue in the epilogue (which takes place before the War in Kryta), is “You survived. I’m pleased. When I return to Kryta, I shall say that heroes still exist in the world. But first, there is another place I must go… a little city called Arah…”. This states pretty plainly, to me, that her first port of call after defeating the Great Destroyer would be Arah.

Victory Is Life Eternal [VILE]

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

When Livia found out about the Scepter of Orr is unknown (she’s now mentioned in the Prophecies epilogue area so it’s likely she learned about it the same time the rest of the Shining Blade learns of it).

It seems weird to me that she would go to Arah before going to Kryta as she has to pass through or pass by Kryta to get to Arah (being north of Kryta and all that). I think that was more meant to be a “before the war ends, I intend to go to Arah” – but as we all should know, plans don’t always happen as we intend. As I said, nothing states she actually went to Arah between Eye of the North and War in Kryta – even if she intended to. However, I will also add: just because we don’t see her with the Scepter, doesn’t mean she didn’t obtain it. Keep in mind we know that she only had it “for a time”, so something or another may have prevented her from using it during the War in Kryta.

And a third possibility: she did go to Arah, but the Scepter wasn’t there. We don’t know where she obtained the Scepter – just because she decided to go to Arah doesn’t mean that’s where the Scepter was.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

My thoughts: Livia’s phrasing in SoS indicates that she still has the scepter, but it clearly is not used in a battle which threatened the life of the designated Krytan heir. Furthermore, she never said she used it, only that she studied it. I would tentatively guess, then, that she decided to play it safe with the Scepter and used it to expand her own knowledge of the magical arts, not as a weapon or tool or whathaveyou. Given the amount of power it is implied to have, while such a policy isn’t as flashy as the alternative, it certainly would seem the more prudent course.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

When Livia found out about the Scepter of Orr is unknown (she’s now mentioned in the Prophecies epilogue area so it’s likely she learned about it the same time the rest of the Shining Blade learns of it).

Not true. The pertinent quote: “I learned a great deal from [Gadd] that can help Kryta. Tell me, have you ever heard of the Scepter of Orr?”

It seems weird to me that she would go to Arah before going to Kryta as she has to pass through or pass by Kryta to get to Arah (being north of Kryta and all that). I think that was more meant to be a “before the war ends, I intend to go to Arah” – but as we all should know, plans don’t always happen as we intend. As I said, nothing states she actually went to Arah between Eye of the North and War in Kryta – even if she intended to. However, I will also add: just because we don’t see her with the Scepter, doesn’t mean she didn’t obtain it. Keep in mind we know that she only had it “for a time”, so something or another may have prevented her from using it during the War in Kryta.

As I said, her exact words were “You survived. I’m pleased. When I return to Kryta, I shall say that heroes still exist in the world. But first, there is another place I must go… a little city called Arah…”. Difficult to interpret that as anything other than heading straight to Arah.

Maybe she didn’t end up going straight to Arah as she clearly intended, but the proximity of the epilogue to Ogden’s Benediction (the cinematic that gets shown immediately before you get entered into the epilogue instance, iirc), in which Livia is shown in a watery, unfamiliar (at least to me) environment retrieving the Scepter of Orr, suggests otherwise. But what I’m saying is that if this scene doesn’t take place until after the War in Kryta (which had not been planned when that cinematic was created), it was probably a retcon.

All that said, it’s a good point that just because we don’t see her using the Scepter of Orr during the War in Kryta, doesn’t mean that she doesn’t have it. But that possibility seems unlikely to me, because that then requires us to explain why it was not seen or mentioned during that storyline. The idea that it was just too powerful and dangerous to be useful has been put forward, but even then I’d have expected to see that at least briefly addressed, and besides, that’s not consistent with the theme of ‘sacrifice’ that pervades around Guild Wars-era Livia. So in the absence of any other information, it seems to me that the most sensible assumption is that she did not have the Scepter of Orr at the time.

And a third possibility: she did go to Arah, but the Scepter wasn’t there. We don’t know where she obtained the Scepter – just because she decided to go to Arah doesn’t mean that’s where the Scepter was.

True, but then that assumption imposes the absurd requirement that we think up some reason why Livia needs to travel to Arah that doesn’t involve the Scepter of Orr. Livia’s main plot thread throughout Eye of the North involves her discovery of the existence of the Scepter of Orr, her manual article and hero unlock text both mention her seeking a ‘weapon of power’, and of course Ogden’s Benediction shows her finally finding the Scepter of Orr. Whether or not she actually does find it in Arah, it is extremely clear that the intent is that the player believes that Arah is where she was in the cinematic (and to be honest, it’d be pretty confusing if it were anywhere else). Any explanation as to why she goes to Arah that does not involve the Scepter of Orr, would then be ridiculous by comparison, because finding the Scepter of Orr is at that point her only really established motive.

But this level of pedantry usually means that you disagree with the conventionally accepted interpretation of the evidence, so I’m curious: what’s your personal theory?

Victory Is Life Eternal [VILE]

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

I’ll also note Glint teleported the scepter of Orr from the volcano… who says she teleported it to Arah and not somewhere else?

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

I’ll also note Glint teleported the scepter of Orr from the volcano… who says she teleported it to Arah and not somewhere else?

Who’s to say that it wasn’t Glint but a resurrected Optimus Caliph just off-screen that teleported the Scepter of Orr away? :P

Given that the next time we see the Scepter of Orr, it is apparently in Arah, we are kind of forced to assume that Glint spirited it directly to there, or via the Dragon’s Lair. We know literally nothing as to why and how the Scepter of Orr really got to Arah, so we’re unable to reasonably speculate on anything to do with the transit, I think.

Victory Is Life Eternal [VILE]

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Out of curiosity, since I wasn’t around back in the GW1 days: why do we think someone teleported the Scepter? I always assumed it was some sort of automatic safeguard. What would anyone have to gain by taking the Scepter just to put it back in Arah?

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Out of curiosity, since I wasn’t around back in the GW1 days: why do we think someone teleported the Scepter? I always assumed it was some sort of automatic safeguard. What would anyone have to gain by taking the Scepter just to put it back in Arah?

Glint’s vision (her head basically) appeared and warned the players to flee the volcano IIRC, and then after they run away the scepter is shown disappearing.

I forget where but I remember reading that glint ferried it to safety, but I can’t be sure if that was wiki or theory from these forums.

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Out of curiosity, since I wasn’t around back in the GW1 days: why do we think someone teleported the Scepter? I always assumed it was some sort of automatic safeguard. What would anyone have to gain by taking the Scepter just to put it back in Arah?

Glint’s vision (her head basically) appeared and warned the players to flee the volcano IIRC, and then after they run away the scepter is shown disappearing.

I forget where but I remember reading that glint ferried it to safety, but I can’t be sure if that was wiki or theory from these forums.

Didn’t Glint disappear before the Scepter? Been a while since I played that mission. (grumbles about Sparks of the Titans)

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

When Livia found out about the Scepter of Orr is unknown (she’s now mentioned in the Prophecies epilogue area so it’s likely she learned about it the same time the rest of the Shining Blade learns of it).

Not true. The pertinent quote: “I learned a great deal from [Gadd] that can help Kryta. Tell me, have you ever heard of the Scepter of Orr?”

I fail to see how that line makes my statement not true.

See here, she is mentioned – and in good standing, enough to have support to be the next Shining Blade leader, so it’s highly likely she knew of the Scepter of Orr during Prophecies. Your quoted line does not deny this possibility.

As I said, her exact words were “You survived. I’m pleased. When I return to Kryta, I shall say that heroes still exist in the world. But first, there is another place I must go… a little city called Arah…”. Difficult to interpret that as anything other than heading straight to Arah.

Maybe she didn’t end up going straight to Arah as she clearly intended, but the proximity of the epilogue to Ogden’s Benediction (the cinematic that gets shown immediately before you get entered into the epilogue instance, iirc), in which Livia is shown in a watery, unfamiliar (at least to me) environment retrieving the Scepter of Orr, suggests otherwise. But what I’m saying is that if this scene doesn’t take place until after the War in Kryta (which had not been planned when that cinematic was created), it was probably a retcon.

All that said, it’s a good point that just because we don’t see her using the Scepter of Orr during the War in Kryta, doesn’t mean that she doesn’t have it. But that possibility seems unlikely to me, because that then requires us to explain why it was not seen or mentioned during that storyline. The idea that it was just too powerful and dangerous to be useful has been put forward, but even then I’d have expected to see that at least briefly addressed, and besides, that’s not consistent with the theme of ‘sacrifice’ that pervades around Guild Wars-era Livia. So in the absence of any other information, it seems to me that the most sensible assumption is that she did not have the Scepter of Orr at the time.

Ogden’s Benediction is shown before the Epilogue and most importantly does not happen in any relevant time to Eye of the North. The cinematic shows Primordus waking up (takes 50 years approximately), and the events for the rest hold no stated order to them.

Livia’s theme of sacrifice is for the betterment of Kryta. She would not be putting Kryta – or its royalty – at risk. Especially since Salma was the only (potential) royalty. It’s heavily hinted (in hindsight) that the Shining Blade’s “fanatic-like devotion” to the throne comes from Livia, as after War in Kryta one of the generic Shining Blade lines becomes: “Livia’s orders are clear: protect the queen at all costs.” And when Livia isn’t next to Salma, she’s next to asura whom had been the cause of R.O.X. that targeted Salma (so I doubt she’d be whipping out a highly magical weapon around them, knowing how asura are via her experience with Gadd).

And I agree that it seems more likely she did not have the Scepter – but that doesn’t mean she had gone to Arah and back in such a short time (less than a year, I believe).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

True, but then that assumption imposes the absurd requirement that we think up some reason why Livia needs to travel to Arah that doesn’t involve the Scepter of Orr. Livia’s main plot thread throughout Eye of the North involves her discovery of the existence of the Scepter of Orr, her manual article and hero unlock text both mention her seeking a ‘weapon of power’, and of course Ogden’s Benediction shows her finally finding the Scepter of Orr. Whether or not she actually does find it in Arah, it is extremely clear that the intent is that the player believes that Arah is where she was in the cinematic (and to be honest, it’d be pretty confusing if it were anywhere else). Any explanation as to why she goes to Arah that does not involve the Scepter of Orr, would then be ridiculous by comparison, because finding the Scepter of Orr is at that point her only really established motive.

She shows a fascination in Orrian magic in Sea of Sorrows, and a fascination with ANYTHING that can prove helpful against the White Mantle in Eye of the North. I think that going to a place of the gods for powerful magic and/or artifacts would be enough reason, don’t you think? Or maybe she thought the Scepter of Orr was there but the search proved fruitless. Since we don’t know where she found the Scepter of Orr, there’s thousands of possibilities, and to limit all possibilities to include “the Scepter of Orr was found in Arah” is quite silly to me.

But this level of pedantry usually means that you disagree with the conventionally accepted interpretation of the evidence, so I’m curious: what’s your personal theory?

What is the “conventionally accepted interpretation of the evidence” exactly? All we see and are told is:

  • Livia (planned to) traveled to Arah.
  • Livia found the Scepter of Orr at some point.
  • Livia was interested in the Scepter before (planning to) going to Arah.
  • Livia did not have the Scepter of Orr when seen roughly a year after mentioning going to Arah.

Yet from this you get “Livia was either not looking for the Scepter of Orr or she obtained it after War in Kryta content and used it in some unseen White Mantle battle in 1088 AE”.

See, that later hardly fits “conventionally accepted interpretation of the evidence” to me.

My personal opinion on the matter? Livia simply did not find the Scepter before the War in Kryta content (whether or not she went to Arah at that time), and the mention of uniting Kryta fully in 1088 is with factions not related to the White Mantle (or instigated by them akin to their attempt in Beetletun).

Where did she find it? Hard to say – that cinematic looks swampy and does remind me of The Heavencrystal Palace in Arah, but it could really be any swamp-like area. It seems a bit weird that the Scepter would magically return to Arah, when the previous time it was lost after a major cataclysmic event (aptly called the Cataclysm), it was next found in a tomb not far from the royal Krytan tombs in Majesty’s Rest. But if the writers want that to be the case they can make up a reason for it.

Given that the next time we see the Scepter of Orr, it is apparently in Arah, we are kind of forced to assume that Glint spirited it directly to there, or via the Dragon’s Lair. We know literally nothing as to why and how the Scepter of Orr really got to Arah, so we’re unable to reasonably speculate on anything to do with the transit, I think.

Nothing really says that cinematic scene is in Arah though. That’s just your assumption for… no explained reason.

Didn’t Glint disappear before the Scepter? Been a while since I played that mission. (grumbles about Sparks of the Titans)

Immediately before, yes. The player characters run, the Glint’s head disappears and the camera immediately pans down to show the Scepter lifting up in a swirl of blue light as it fades away.

Whether it was Glint’s doing or an automatic act of itself is never clarified.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

It’s also worth noting that Eye of the North happened in 1078, and War in Kryta in 1079, even if from our perspectives there were several years between the two. Livia might have intended to go to Arah right away, but then the war heated up into what turned out to be the most decisive moment since Prophecies. Livia could well have decided that however useful the Sceptre might be, it was more useful for her to not be leaving the Shining Blade at a critical moment, particularly since she couldn’t know how long the search might take or how long it might take to master the Scepter.

At the bottom line… she doesn’t use the Scepter in War in Kryta. If she had it and knew how to use it, there’s no doubt in my mind that she would have used it, at the Battle for Lion’s Arch if not before. That she doesn’t, then, implies that either she doesn’t have it or doesn’t know how to use it.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: videoboy.4162

videoboy.4162

I’ve tried to read everything in this thread, so I hope I didn’t miss this (or forget I read it over the past few days).

Has anyone considered the possibility that Anise is Livia daughter? They share some physical characteristics.

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

I fail to see how that line makes my statement not true.

See here, she is mentioned – and in good standing, enough to have support to be the next Shining Blade leader, so it’s highly likely she knew of the Scepter of Orr during Prophecies. Your quoted line does not deny this possibility.

It doesn’t deny it explicitly, but then neither does the line “I, Livia, learned of the Scepter of Orr from Gadd, who told me about it during the events of Eye of the North, in which I worked for him”, since it leaves open the possibility that she was somehow incorrect or lying. It would, however, then be a ridiculous assumption to make that she was wrong or lying, as it is here to believe that “I learned a great deal from [Gadd] that can help Kryta. Tell me, have you ever heard of the Scepter of Orr?” could possibly indicate anything other than that Livia learned of the Scepter of Orr from Gadd. Moreover, it shows that Livia intended to use the Scepter of Orr to help Kryta, which brings us onto our next point…

Ogden’s Benediction is shown before the Epilogue and most importantly does not happen in any relevant time to Eye of the North. The cinematic shows Primordus waking up (takes 50 years approximately), and the events for the rest hold no stated order to them.

The cinematic doesn’t show Primordus awakening, it shows him stirring, which is exactly what happens in Eye of the North. And whilst it’s true that there is nothing saying that the various events in Ogden’s Benediction happen immediately after the epilogue, between the fact that we are shown the cinematic right before entering the epilogue instance, the fact that Livia says during the epilogue that she plans to head to Arah (and explicitly notes before that she intends to do so before heading to Kryta), then as long as you believe that she is heading to Arah to find the Scepter of Orr then she could only be doing so immediately after the epilogue. Unless, of course, it was retconned to happen at a different time, which is what I think probably happened when the War in Kryta content arrived.

She shows a fascination in Orrian magic in Sea of Sorrows, and a fascination with ANYTHING that can prove helpful against the White Mantle in Eye of the North. I think that going to a place of the gods for powerful magic and/or artifacts would be enough reason, don’t you think? Or maybe she thought the Scepter of Orr was there but the search proved fruitless. Since we don’t know where she found the Scepter of Orr, there’s thousands of possibilities, and to limit all possibilities to include “the Scepter of Orr was found in Arah” is quite silly to me.

Her preoccupation with Orrian magic during Sea of is Sorrows is not demonstrative of her seeking Orrian magic during Eye of the North, since Sea of Sorrows takes place centuries later. Livia is fascinated by Orrian magic at the time of the Great Krytan Blockade precisely because she had discovered the Scepter of Orr. So to say that fasacination with Orrian magic is what inspired her to go to Arah directly after the epilogue of Eye of the North is way off the mark, in terms of chronology.

Similarly, Livia’s ‘fascination’ with anything that could help defeat the White Mantle during Eye of the North is one thing, but the manual article and hero unlock text both make explicit mention of a weapon of power, and the Scepter of Orr is the only means to defeating the White Mantle that is explored at any length in-game. So why is it unreasonable to say that she seeks the Scepter of Orr as a weapon of power to help defeat the White Mantle? I don’t understand why you are so determined to challenge this idea.

As for whether or not the Scepter of Orr was actually found in Arah, the fact is that whilst it’s possible that it was found elsewhere, with what we know it isn’t remotely likely. If you believe, as I do (and as far as I know, you are the only person who does not), that Livia seeks the Scepter of Orr in Arah, then you have to accept that she believes that the Scepter of Orr is in Arah at the time of the epilogue. And in that case, since Livia mentions heading to Arah in very close proximity to her being shown in an unfamiliar location finding the Scepter of Orr, it must be that the Scepter of Orr was in Arah after all. Otherwise, the game would be dropping a very big hint that the Scepter of Orr is in Arah and then going in a completely different direction. Actually, it’d be showing the Scepter of Orr being found “somewhere” in the future, then immediately after hinting that the Scepter of Orr can, in the present day, be found in Arah. That’d be insane if that wasn’t the case. That seems obvious to me, and having to pull this apart in such detail for you is exhausting.

Victory Is Life Eternal [VILE]

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Posted by: Tamias.7059

Tamias.7059

What is the “conventionally accepted interpretation of the evidence” exactly? All we see and are told is:

  • Livia (planned to) traveled to Arah.
  • Livia found the Scepter of Orr at some point.
  • Livia was interested in the Scepter before (planning to) going to Arah.
  • Livia did not have the Scepter of Orr when seen roughly a year after mentioning going to Arah.

Yet from this you get “Livia was either not looking for the Scepter of Orr or she obtained it after War in Kryta content and used it in some unseen White Mantle battle in 1088 AE”.

See, that later hardly fits “conventionally accepted interpretation of the evidence” to me.

My personal opinion on the matter? Livia simply did not find the Scepter before the War in Kryta content (whether or not she went to Arah at that time), and the mention of uniting Kryta fully in 1088 is with factions not related to the White Mantle (or instigated by them akin to their attempt in Beetletun).

Where did she find it? Hard to say – that cinematic looks swampy and does remind me of The Heavencrystal Palace in Arah, but it could really be any swamp-like area. It seems a bit weird that the Scepter would magically return to Arah, when the previous time it was lost after a major cataclysmic event (aptly called the Cataclysm), it was next found in a tomb not far from the royal Krytan tombs in Majesty’s Rest. But if the writers want that to be the case they can make up a reason for it.

I disagree that this is all we are seen and told. Here is what I see:

  • We are told that Livia seeks a ‘weapon of power’ to end the Krytan civil war.
  • Livia is talking about the things she learned whilst working with Gadd, and mentions the Scepter of Orr.
  • Livia is shown finding the Scepter of Orr in a flash-forward.
  • Immediately after the flash-forward, Livia states her intent to head immediately to Arah.

That’s what we’re told. But you’re saying the ‘weapon of power’ Livia sought wasn’t the Scepter of Orr, that her mention of the Scepter of Orr when talking about what she learned from Gadd was a non sequitur, and that Livia intended to head to Arah for some reason other than seeking the Scepter of Orr, or possibly did not end up there at all. These possibilities, whilst not explicitly precluded, would contradict strongly established hints and are unthinkable to me.

The challenge is in marrying this up in what we learn (or in the case of the War in Kryta, don’t learn) about Livia and the Scepter of Orr in Sea of Sorrows and Beyond. Not about discarding everything in Eye of the North altogether.

Victory Is Life Eternal [VILE]

The Mystery of Countess Anise

in Lore

Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

I’ve tried to read everything in this thread, so I hope I didn’t miss this (or forget I read it over the past few days).

Has anyone considered the possibility that Anise is Livia daughter? They share some physical characteristics.

Definitely closer then “Anise is the actual queen” because she doesn’t match physical traits with Jennah.

Also, (to the other guy), in the end cutscene of EOTn, it showed Primordus’s Eye opening, moving, and (IIRC) the stones in the ceiling/his neck starting to fall down. It’s pretty obvious he was waking up in the scene, not ‘starting to stir.’

The Mystery of Countess Anise

in Lore

Posted by: Malganis.7468

Malganis.7468

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Time_line

Primordus WAS going to awake, but when the players defeated his Champion, the Great Destroyer, he was put back to slumber for another 40 years.

Legion of Honour [XIII]: http://operationunion.enjin.com/home
Tarnished Coast

The Mystery of Countess Anise

in Lore

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Something to keep in mind here:

There are things from Ogden’s Benediction that we know didn’t happen until well after the War in Kryta. Yes, the Great Destroyer was Primordus’ alarm clock – but no-one except the Order of Whispers knew that Primordus was actually a living being rather than a statue until well afterwards, and Ogden showed no signs, at least in EOTN, of being any different in that respect. More tellingly, Ogden speaks of new races stirring, with an image of the young Pale Tree – but when the sylvari first appeared a quarter century before GW2, they were a surprise to everyone. Ogden’s Benediction seems like it was probably given not long before GW2 started – we’re shown it at the end of EOTN as a link between EOTN and GW2 (keep in mind that at that stage they thought GW2 would only be a couple of years in development rather than six, and had no plans for GW:Beyond) but it’s probably not something our GW1 characters ever heard. I’d guess, in fact, that the Benediction is an afterword to a document in the Priory recording the EOTN story.

Second, the last we see of the Sceptre of Orr is it disappearing from the Ring of Fire just before an eruption. Whether through its own properties or an outside agency, it seems that the Scepter has some form of ‘escape mechanism’ that allows it to avoid destruction. I’m inclined to think it’s an inherent property, as the Staff of the Mists only had a single means of destruction (which presumably prevents the escape mechanism).

Odds are, the Scepter was in a Krytan tomb in Prophecies (that the White Mantle retrieved it from) because that was where it jumped to from the Cataclysm. When it jumped from the Ring of Fire… would it necessarily have jumped back to Arah? Or might it have jumped to somewhere else?

It’s clear why Livia might have thought Arah would be logical – the whole ’it’s the Scepter of Orr, it will be found in Orr’ thing – but it’s entirely possible that that assumption proved to be wrong. The Scepter could easily have had another bolthole to go to. Livia’s journey to Arah, whenever that was (and I’ve given reasons above why she might not have done so before WiK) may have proved to be a dead end requiring her to do further research to discover its actual location, or she may have failed to find the Scepter but instead found information on the places where it might have gone instead.

Incidentally, on the line connecting Gadd to the scepter – I’d question just how much an asura would know about the Scepter when at that point they hadn’t exactly paid a lot of attention to bookahs and their gods. It’s possible that the actual connection is that she’s learned a lot about necromancy and magic in general from Gadd, enough that she thinks she can now use the scepter.

Consider, after all, that Livia is reasonably high-ranking Shining Blade. The Shining Blade certainly knew about the Scepter of Orr, considering they held it for a time but passed it on to Vizier Khilbron because the Shining Blade was unable to use it themselves. It strikes me as much more likely that Livia learned of the Scepter through the Shining Blade, and the knowledge she received from Gadd was magical studies that she felt brought her to a point where she might be able to control the Scepter, rather than knowledge of the Scepter (the existence of which seemed to be reasonably common knowledge in Kryta – maybe not known to everybody, but likely to people with good educations) having been kept from Livia but somehow being known to a member of a race that had lived underground, had no direct contact with human culture until immediately before EOTN, and has a well-known disregard for the knowledge of other races.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.