Guild Wars 2

Xukavi.4320:

I would like to recall some things from the “What Scarlet Saw” short story and see how it fits with our updates on the story so far. Some parts of the story stand out, though I still can’t make full connections with what’s going on in the story so far.

When Scarlet was in Omadd’s machine she heard the Pale Tree’s voice saying: “Stop, my child. Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.”.

What forces is the Pale Tree talking about? What exactly does she mean by shape us? At first glance when you read it, you’d think shaping means defining how they act. Which as far as we know, what defines the morals, for lack of a better word, of the Sylvari are the teachings of the Ventari tablet. BUT, that wouldn’t make sense with the following part that says ‘you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.’

Interesting, another theory that have been around is that the sylvari are spawns of the jungle dragon, freed by Ventari and the human that took the seed. This would mean that the pale tree feared that he would try to regain control over them.

Let me remind everyone of one thing, Anet is stopping the world events to “focus on a big update” in 3 updates. And that the only existing connection with the rest of the world is a portal, defended by lvl 80 (!) in Brisban.

This portals leads to the jungle.

I think scarlet might do just what she said. She wants to turn the forces that lead the sylvari to either nightmare or society against each other.

If we assume there is a Plant dragon, it will probably align with the earth element and thus be underground. Not tectonic level as primordus is, but at a fair depth. If she wanted to have that plant dragon (Mordremoth) fight the other forces – namely the tyrian society (Lions Arch Pirates and the Pact containing the three orders) she had to lure him there somehow. I think, that this is exactly what the thumpers do. Either lure him to Lions Arch right away or give her enough information about his position that she might guide him using the kind of mixed up magic that woke the dragons in the first place and caused the reality do dissolve at thaumanova. (Look at the yellow lightnings running down the thumpers are the same as the ones with the Thaumanova Anomaly and the surface lines of Subject alpha where different elements of dragon energy converged – the thumpers even are hexagonal – they might send magical energy waves into tyria that then are reflected at certain things and give information back)

But If such a dragon would be close to LA there would be signs, righ? Well, the recently added Wurm boss comes with a peculiar sort of enemy – half way digested Husks that it ate somewhere below. There are no Husks near Lions Arch Whatsoever. So how did Husks, possible dragon minions get in the underground of bloodtide coast If there is not more in the underground then we thought?

The projector in her base and a picture both show how shes going to drill down into the earth with the ufo she already has. (look at the fins). Its a mobile, flying drill of a dragon-worthy size that can drill wherever she wants – even lions arch. If the ufo contains all knowledge she has gahtered: Air ship technology and drilling technology. It will also contain the toxins and illusions she will probably use to deal with the dragon or to manipulate it. What if she wants to crack lions arch with her fleet, punture this underground jungle right there and unleash the recently awoken dragon?

The other one is about what happens next, scarlets long term plans, the infinity ball-world and the Sylvari. And its a lot more hypothetical. If we assume, the “pale-tree-is-a-dragon-champion” theory might be true (Compare Jora and Svanir to Caithe and Faolain exept that Caithe hadnt taken any confirmed damage from the encounter – maybe her connection to the dream has been severed) the sylvari are in an actuall dilemma since the only can choose between destroy themselves by destroying Mordremoth or let themselves be enslaved by the dragon and fighting the tyrian societies. In this case, Scarlett has an actual reason to try to save her people. But If shes going to turn the society and the dragons against each other and destroy each other, the Sylvari arent saved either. So what is necessary to do so if this dilemma actually exists?

For the Sylvari to actually be free it needed an energy source that is strong enough to power a whole society of Sylvari which Scarlett has by now. On this point ill mention the steam creatures. The steam creatures are non-thinking, hostile, minions of some unknown origin and will in a possible future take over Tyria. The steam creatures are partially organic even they cannot sustain live. They are in fact incomplete. Maybe Scarletts tries to keep a sylvari alive while dispatching it from its live source – namely dragon energy. Experiments with sylvari have almost tradition with the asura.

Maybe Scarlett has been creating them for a while now and fail because she did not have enough knowledge. By now she mastered non-magic computer technology from the flame legion, the lets-fuse-a-sylvari-with-something-technoloy from the nightmare tower and yet more superior technology from the Aeterblades.

We havent seen Steam creatures in the LS for a while now. Maybe because they have evolved with the nightmare tower when Scarlett seemed so happy. If she actually succeeds and she can access the entirety of the sylvari by manipulating the dragon, taking over the pale tree or dispatching the sylvari from it while keeping it alive, she might have “freed” her people and gained an army to take over tyria as she did in the infinity-ball universe. To strike first in Lions arch would align with this possible future since Shodd (a character from the Asura Personal story that came from that place) had a Title that implies that new empire including Lions Arch.

I mean, look at the Clockheart that might indeed be a dragon minion that was clockwor-ized and taken by scarlett, why shouldnt she be able to do the same with the sylvary or an entire dragon by now? Destroyers have been seen to lay their own eggs (Skritt Personal Story) so autonomous reproduction might be possible for Sylvari too even if this probably wont happen in this story arch. Or look at that clockwork Moa thing we can get since the latest patch. Either its a joke or it might hint at scarletts green clockwork energy might have ascended to a base on which live is possible – like the dragon corruptions – we will see…

Probably A lot of this is garbage but id be happy if some of it would revealed to be right

Miroe.2054:

If we assume there is a Plant dragon, it will probably align with the earth element and thus be underground.

No, plants are both above and below ground. A jungle dragon could be both.

Xukavi.4320:

I would like to recall some things from the “What Scarlet Saw” short story and see how it fits with our updates on the story so far. Some parts of the story stand out, though I still can’t make full connections with what’s going on in the story so far.

When Scarlet was in Omadd’s machine she heard the Pale Tree’s voice saying: “Stop, my child. Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.”.

What forces is the Pale Tree talking about? What exactly does she mean by shape us? At first glance when you read it, you’d think shaping means defining how they act. Which as far as we know, what defines the morals, for lack of a better word, of the Sylvari are the teachings of the Ventari tablet. BUT, that wouldn’t make sense with the following part that says ‘you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.’

[…]

To me this feels more like Ceara found out more than anyone was supposed to know about the Pale Tree, the true origins behind the Pale Tree and then the Pale Tree turned on her deeming her dangerous.

Hmmm… Good eyes and memory there.

Such things of morality for the sylvari would actually be the Dream and Nightmare, rather than the Ventari Tablet. So what she saw and is peering into her was one of the two then. Or what made either the Dream or the Nightmare.

Alternatively, the origins of the Pale Tree – what made the Pale Tree (the seed) and the like. However, it being the origins isn’t full cut, because the Dream and the Nightmare are not tied to the sylvari race. The White Stag is on par to the Pale Tree in regards to the Dream, and Malyck – a sylvari of another tree – lacks a Dream.

Xukavi.4320:

Now this brings up two points regarding this ‘Grand Design’, the first is that all four are meant to be part of a grand design playing a certain role. So the “shapers” (I’ll call them shapers as the pale tree said the forces that shape them) meant for there to be the pale tree and a nightmare court. The second part which ties in with the more recent living story updates, which is Scarlet saying that she knows Caithe’s secret.

Do we ever find out what Caithe’s Wyld Hunt is? What was her true purpose in the world? Some people assumed that the secret was Caithe and Faolain sharing feelings but this points that they’re both major parts in some grand design that no one yet understands or even notices.

This may be why the Pale Tree has the reaction to the Nightmare Court she does – she knew they must exist, for some reason unknown to us, if this is true. I do not recall where the dialogue – may have been BWE now-removed dialogue – but the Avatar of the Tree said at one point that she accepts, though sorrowfully, the Nightmare Court’s existence.

We do find out Caithe’s Wyld Hunt – at the end of the first story arc for sylvari. Her Wyld Hunt is to slay Zhaitan.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t the Sylvari learn from the teachings of the Ventari Tablet? In which case, morality comes from the teachings but is spread by the Dream of Dreams. You’re correct that they’re not tied to the Sylvari race as a whole, Malyck did lack the dream.

Edit: According to the information in game on the Ventari tablet, it states that it serves as a moral foundation for the Sylvari

I know the Origins of the Sylvari are from the trees, but the origins of the trees are the seeds themselves. One of those seeds was stolen from a cave which we have no idea where it is (as far as I know). What if those seeds were there in preparation for Mordremoth’s rise? The trees from the seeds would inevitably be corrupted by him and used to spawn his minions. This would lead to a Glint like theory where the Pale Tree is trying to stop the corruption from happening. Now my theory is that the Pale Tree knows that inevitably Mordremoth will try to corrupt the Sylvari (which would be clearly linked to the Nightmare Court). She tried to fight the corruption by creating the Dream of Dreams. Think of it as the anti-Dragon corruption. It works in the same way only trying to take Sylvari away from Mordremoth.

Now this is where the theory gets really wild. Scarlet saw the truth behind all this during her little experimental trip. Sylvari are all bound inevitably to either of two fates: 1) Being a part of the Dream of Dreams and fighting on the Pale Tree’s side. 2) Being part of the Nightmare and fighting on Mordremoth’s side. Which both fit perfectly into her saying “Now do you see? If you are not one with what you were born to be, you are lost. Worse, you are dangerous.”. If she’s not with the Pale Tree she is susceptible to be with Mordremoth. Sylvari from the pale tree were meant to be anti-dragons. Also, “So much makes sense now. The Pale Tree, the Nightmare Court, Caithe and Faolain…it’s all part of a grand design." and Scarlet saying that she’ll put an end to it. She doesn’t want the Sylvari to be a part of neither, she believes that they should be in control of their own lives. In both cases stated (Dream or Nightmare) they aren’t.

Xukavi.4320:

She doesn’t want the Sylvari to be a part of neither, she believes that they should be in control of their own lives. In both cases stated (Dream or Nightmare) they aren’t.

Or she believes that SHE should be in control of her own life. I have yet to see any signs that Scarlet is concerned about anyone but herself.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Xukavi.4320:

She doesn’t want the Sylvari to be a part of neither, she believes that they should be in control of their own lives. In both cases stated (Dream or Nightmare) they aren’t.

Or she believes that SHE should be in control of her own life. I have yet to see any signs that Scarlet is concerned about anyone but herself.

But my friend you have forgotten this line in what Scarlet Saw: “But I see the flaws in that design. My people don’t have to take what we’re given, or be what we were “born to be.” No people do. We can change the rules…well, I can. And I’m going to.”

Also adding to that is this part: “But I reject that call. I reject the notion that I must choose the Dream or be lost to Nightmare. The forces that push us this way or that can be redirected. They can be set against one another to the detriment of both, and now I know how.”

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Miroe.2054:

If we assume there is a Plant dragon, it will probably align with the earth element and thus be underground.

No, plants are both above and below ground. A jungle dragon could be both.

Well, actually they have largely vanished in the Maguuma region

Miroe.2054:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Miroe.2054:

If we assume there is a Plant dragon, it will probably align with the earth element and thus be underground.

No, plants are both above and below ground. A jungle dragon could be both.

Well, actually they have largely vanished in the Maguuma region

Only in the northern half. There is still a huge amount of unexplored jungle west of Metrica.

Xukavi.4320:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t the Sylvari learn from the teachings of the Ventari Tablet? In which case, morality comes from the teachings but is spread by the Dream of Dreams. You’re correct that they’re not tied to the Sylvari race as a whole, Malyck did lack the dream.

Edit: According to the information in game on the Ventari tablet, it states that it serves as a moral foundation for the Sylvari

I was more meaning the fact how the Dream are “free to chose” their moral standing, while the Nightmare are forced into a moral standing. Even then, most Dreamers are in fact much kinder than Soundless or Malyck.

Not going to respond to the rest because quite frankly, I am sick and tired of “sylvari are dragon minions!!!”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Xukavi.4320:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t the Sylvari learn from the teachings of the Ventari Tablet? In which case, morality comes from the teachings but is spread by the Dream of Dreams. You’re correct that they’re not tied to the Sylvari race as a whole, Malyck did lack the dream.

Edit: According to the information in game on the Ventari tablet, it states that it serves as a moral foundation for the Sylvari

I was more meaning the fact how the Dream are “free to chose” their moral standing, while the Nightmare are forced into a moral standing. Even then, most Dreamers are in fact much kinder than Soundless or Malyck.

Not going to respond to the rest because quite frankly, I am sick and tired of “sylvari are dragon minions!!!”

I know, I know…but I didn’t mean they aren’t directly dragon minions per say. Think of it this way, seeds were meant to be grown into trees that give birth to free-willed Sylvari (as we have Sylvari like Malyck that aren’t part of the dream). One tree (Pale Tree) figures that there’s a threat that will be corrupting Sylvari (Mordremoth) and decided to act against it with The Dream of Dreams.

In other words put simply, The Pale Tree is brainwashing Sylvari through the Dream of Dreams for the greater good of not being corrupted by Mordremoth, which is happening through the Nightmare. The Pale Tree accepts sorrowfully that the Nightmare and by extension the Nightmare court must exist. Scarlet in turn found out about this and didn’t want either for the Sylvari, she wanted them freed from both Dream and Nightmare.

If it does turn out to be Mordremoth has influence over the dream that is really going to create an interesting dynamic with the rest of the world. It will also creates a really dangerous scenario as well. Especially in the case of Scarlet; or even if the same dynamic is tied to the origin of the Nightmare Court. Taking a hand picked prodigy Sylvari that is born and driving their talent into overdrive (breaking the mind in the process) to do it’s bidding.

But if Mordremoth does have this type of personal relationship with the Sylvari it begs the question: why leave the Sylavri in a Yin/Yang state of being? Is it too fool the other races into a false sense of security to trust the Sylvari until it’s awakening? Or is it because it’s power has not grown passed a certain point to take mass control over the entire Sylvari race? It could mean the Pale Tree and Glint share something after all. However the Pale Tree would end up fighting Mordremoth through psychological battlefield (instead of physical prowess) to save her race from it’s corruption.

On the note that Sylvari stem from the Elder Dragon itself. There could be another theory that they could have been genetically created by one of the Elder Races to fight the Dragons. However it failed once Mordremoth awoke, or found a way to counter the genetic anti-corruption. There is absolutely nothing to back this theory up but at least it would mean they are not directly Mordremoth minions.

I don’t think that Mordremoth has influence over the dream.
The way the story seems to be going implies that he has influence over Scarlet, but we know that she has turned away from the Dream – which would suggest that his influence and the dream are two completely separate things.

Xukavi.4320:

But my friend you have forgotten this line in what Scarlet Saw: “But I see the flaws in that design. My people don’t have to take what we’re given, or be what we were “born to be.” No people do. We can change the rules…well, I can. And I’m going to.”

Also adding to that is this part: “But I reject that call. I reject the notion that I must choose the Dream or be lost to Nightmare. The forces that push us this way or that can be redirected. They can be set against one another to the detriment of both, and now I know how.”

Well she does literally say: “We can change the rules…well, I can.”

This could also be interpreted as Scarlet changing the rules just for herself, and not for all her people. It could be argued that Scarlet no longer identifies herself as part of the Sylvari. And it would match the self-centered behavior we’ve seen of her up to this point.

Scarlet’s Dad was a Drunk and a Master from Order of OM.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Xukavi.4320:

But my friend you have forgotten this line in what Scarlet Saw: “But I see the flaws in that design. My people don’t have to take what we’re given, or be what we were “born to be.” No people do. We can change the rules…well, I can. And I’m going to.”

Also adding to that is this part: “But I reject that call. I reject the notion that I must choose the Dream or be lost to Nightmare. The forces that push us this way or that can be redirected. They can be set against one another to the detriment of both, and now I know how.”

Well she does literally say: “We can change the rules…well, I can.”

This could also be interpreted as Scarlet changing the rules just for herself, and not for all her people. It could be argued that Scarlet no longer identifies herself as part of the Sylvari. And it would match the self-centered behavior we’ve seen of her up to this point.

The way I see it is that she wants change for all sylvari and that she believes she’s the one that can create this change bec of what she now knows.

Let me quick recap a bit, just to get my thoughts in order. So correct me if i am wrong:

Scarlet`s diary
It tells us that she feels something talking to her, pouring thoughts, ideas, a possible furute into her mind.
We do not know when it started, though. or do we?
What if she had these visions while she was Caera (excuse me, i do not remember her name right now). It started slow, while she was on her quest for knowledge. She was wandering around, learning everything a mortal “man” could, since she is mroe afine to to technology then magic i presume.
As the “voice gets louder” she tries to figure out what it is, which might led her to Omadd. his experiment gave her the final push to turn into Scarlett and pursue her goal.

Her Goal
Is quite open. So far we know that she was plaqued by the voice in her head.
She is not stupid. We know that. So i prsume she wants to do everything to meet the creature that is pestering her. Maybe even vanquishes it to get sane again.
The rest of the world cannot grasp the pain she is going through. What she has seen, thus she is completly fixated on stopping whatever she has seen by all means.
(which would ironcly make her an anti-hero. weird…)

However it could also be the other way, simply that she was finaly giving in to the voice and is now helping it.

The Priory
Is just saying that she is gathering forces of every element.
Thi seems rather weak, if we think about everything we allready know.
I can only asume the herald we had, was just breaking it down for the common denominator of everyone listening.
No mentioning of the mists (like the order said) or the Thaumanova reactor (something Kiel saw).
I still think it is still more about technology.

The Drill and Marionette
Someone corrected me, as he said that the whole thing was the drill, thus it could work like the tunnel drills we use today.

I looked at the design and it actually makes sense. It`s circular design allows it to be a giant portal, combined with a exchangable bottom (drill part).
a problem with tunnel drills is, that it still creates material behind it.
Going vertical would just have the material fall onto the drill, maybe even damaging it.
However if we see it as a giant portal machine, just with a drill attached, the rubble created would just be sucked into the void and transported somwhere else.

The Manequin seems to have a limited range. In fact it seems like it is the same radius as the drill itself.
While this is a test, it`s actuall input could be much greater.

However, the creation of such a thing and angering everyone could be to create a suitable “army” to test that thing on.

Think about it. What if the being she is going on against has an army, which is stonger then the normal people or one faction alone.
Wouldn`t it be better to test her weapon on beings which are on hero level? Trained and with combat experience? With magical and physical help?
If her weapon is able to best them, then it would be able to stand against everything the being could throw against her.

Mordremoth
As far as we know, he is sitting somwhere in the Maguuma jungle. The far wasted we knew of GW1, are now his domain.
Would it really make sense to have him so far in the east? Furthermore beneath LA and the Order HQs, close to Zaithans forces and possible Primodus?
While Collin hinted with his name reveal that he could be the next dragon in line, the distance and other possible enemies at that location make it a bit unliekely in my book.
We allready know that Primodus is ruling underground. Maybe still fighting against stone dwarfes, building an army to get to the surface. We allready have places where his minions appear.
As long as Mordremoth is not depicted as a sheming dragon. Someone who uses trickery to get his things done, then i do not see him being the next dragon.
I mean, we do not even have seen his minions so far (as far as we know at least)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Xukavi.4320:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t the Sylvari learn from the teachings of the Ventari Tablet? In which case, morality comes from the teachings but is spread by the Dream of Dreams. You’re correct that they’re not tied to the Sylvari race as a whole, Malyck did lack the dream.

Edit: According to the information in game on the Ventari tablet, it states that it serves as a moral foundation for the Sylvari

I was more meaning the fact how the Dream are “free to chose” their moral standing, while the Nightmare are forced into a moral standing. Even then, most Dreamers are in fact much kinder than Soundless or Malyck.

Not going to respond to the rest because quite frankly, I am sick and tired of “sylvari are dragon minions!!!”

Well first of all who are you to judge theories. Second, you must be blind not to see that the Sylvari are very much related to the Dragon. Dragon spawn ? Corruptible race ? This nobody knows yet.

Another thing, when you create a character your first “big boss” is related to your race main problem. As a Sylvari you are asked to fight against the “Nightmare”, and the boss is a dragon that looks nothing like Zhaitan but rather a jungle/tree like dragon.

When you talk with the Sylvari NOT following the pale tree they all mention “voices” or “callings”, on of them even more or less saying “we must accept violence and pain being a part of our nature”.

I strongly believe that we’ll have to fight against hostile Sylvari (or Sylvari alike) fighting for the dragon, wether they were born for it or currupted.

Also, why would the Sylvari be the only race NOT corrupted by Zhaitan nor the Destroyer ?

Here’s another weird theory about why Scarlet is creating an army to add to the pile. It’s on the premise of her being an Elder Dragon champion…

What if she’s gathering forces together simply for the dragon to corrupt them? One of the first things the EDs seem to do when they awaken is create minions. Both Primordus and Jormag (and their champions) were creating minions before the awoke. Zhaitan rose Orr on this awakening, and he then proceeded to make minions out of the long (Orrians) and recent (pirates) dead. DSD is unknown, other than it possibly corrupting and shaping the water, and Kralky created the Dragonbrand right after his awakening, on his way to confront Glint.

I’m not exactly sure how it would go about corrupting them in this theory. My best guess it could possibly tie into the ToN spores. Living beings would breathe in the spores, and the spores would probably settle in their lungs. Add a bit of the dragon magic, the spores would then begin to spread inside the victim’s body. Before long, the host would be killed, and the plant inside can use the body as a support structure and fertilizer.

Zin.1673:

Well first of all who are you to judge theories. Second, you must be blind not to see that the Sylvari are very much related to the Dragon. Dragon spawn ? Corruptible race ? This nobody knows yet.

Another thing, when you create a character your first “big boss” is related to your race main problem. As a Sylvari you are asked to fight against the “Nightmare”, and the boss is a dragon that looks nothing like Zhaitan but rather a jungle/tree like dragon.

When you talk with the Sylvari NOT following the pale tree they all mention “voices” or “callings”, on of them even more or less saying “we must accept violence and pain being a part of our nature”.

I strongly believe that we’ll have to fight against hostile Sylvari (or Sylvari alike) fighting for the dragon, wether they were born for it or currupted.

Also, why would the Sylvari be the only race NOT corrupted by Zhaitan nor the Destroyer ?

Well, who are you to judge me then? You’d have to be blind to not see all the counter-points to the theory. Such as the confirmed fact that dragon minions CAN be corrupted by other Elder Dragons. Sure, the sylvari are tied to the Elder Dragons – in so far that the Dream of Dreams and the Pale Tree compels them to fight the Elder Dragons – ALL Elder Dragons.

The Shadow of the Dragon doesn’t have to look like Zhaitan. It’s a representation.

The Nightmare Court have a false sense of their true self. There’s probably 10 different views of what the Nightmare is and how sylvari should act by the Nightmare Courtiers alone throughout the game. Malyck, a sylvari born without influence from the Dream of Dreams, act nothing like the Nightmare Courtiers.

As to why the sylvari are immune – no one knows. But it’s to all Elder Dragon corruption, not just Zhaitan’s or Primordus’. Jormag’s and Kralkatorrik’s too – probably Mordremoth’s and the DSD’s. But it should be noted – their “immunity” is not really immunity, it’s just that there’s no other short way of saying “rather than becoming corrupted dragon minions, they are outright killed by the Elder Dragons’ corruptive magic.”

Zin.1673:

Interesting, another theory that have been around is that the sylvari are spawns of the jungle dragon, freed by Ventari and the human that took the seed. This would mean that the pale tree feared that he would try to regain control over them.

Oh, for Grenth’s sake. Only reason that rotten zombie of a theory keeps rising up over and over again is because its debunking just doesn’t have the sensationalism quality.

Remember, kids!

Regardless of what she claimed in Edge of Destiny, powerful magic was required for her to gain her freedom. No amount of epiphany or willpower, however strong, is capable of breaking a minion free from their dragon’s control. See: Forgotten path, Arah.

Second, being corrupted by one dragon, with or without free will, provides no protection against corruption by another. See: Crucible of Eternity.

The basis that the theory was formed from was 1) the possibility that one way of becoming immune to dragon corruption was by being already corrupted, and 2) the idea that since (we believed at the time) that Glint broke free through an epiphany, that the Pale Tree may have broken free through a similar epiphany brought on by the Ventari Tablet.

Both of these legs of the theory have been thoroughly debunked, and it literally has nothing left to stand on.

If there’s any connection and their resistance to corruption isn’t just a quirk of evolution, it’s much more likely to have been engineered into them to fight the dragons, most likely by the one race apart from the sylvari that was known to have the capability to cleanse and protect against dragon corruption, and which history reports did once live in the Maguuma Jungle as well as other parts of Tyria: the race of enlightened serpents known as the Forgotten.

We can’t get to the Forgotten because they are deep in Kralkatorrik’s territory, none of the purifying of dragon minions stuff. And the Seers are in hiding or extinct, Jotun don’t remember how to make their structures let alone help. The Mursaat could do something about it, but after the events of GW1 they won’t lift a muscle to help.

Jaken.6801:

We do not know when it started, though. or do we?

It started some time after Omadd put Ceara through his experiment.

Jaken.6801:

What if she had these visions while she was Caera

She didn’t, as far as we know.

Jaken.6801:

Is just saying that she is gathering forces of every element.
This seems rather weak, if we think about everything we already know.

I would take everything that the Priory say at this point with a pinch of salt. She was camping out right underneath their base after all.

Jaken.6801:

a problem with tunnel drills is, that it still creates material behind it.
Going vertical would just have the material fall onto the drill, maybe even damaging it.
However if we see it as a giant portal machine, just with a drill attached, the rubble created would just be sucked into the void and transported somewhere else.

This is a reasonable assumption.

Jaken.6801:

Mordremoth
As far as we know, he is sitting somwhere in the Maguuma jungle.

We do not know this, and we have nothing to assume this might even be the case.

darkfiremew.5937:

We can’t get to the Forgotten because they are deep in Kralkatorrik’s territory

We don’t know if they are still around.

darkfiremew.5937:

And the Seers are in hiding or extinct

We have nothing to base this on either. A wild assumption based on zero evidence.

darkfiremew.5937:

The Mursaat could do something about it, but after the events of GW1 they won’t lift a muscle to help.

We don’t know anything about whether the Mursaat are still around, nor if they would be interested in fighting the dragons. We have no idea what their agenda might be, in regards to the Elder Dragons.

Zin.1673:

Well first of all who are you to judge theories.

You do realize you are arguing with someone with way more knowledge about the lore than yourself, right? That’s like saying to a firefighter: “Well what do you know about fire?!”

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Jaken.6801:

We do not know when it started, though. or do we?

It started some time after Omadd put Ceara through his experiment.

Jaken.6801:

What if she had these visions while she was Caera

She didn’t, as far as we know.

That is the thing. We do not know how long she is having these voices in her head.
I noticed a change in attitude while reading her journal.
While it is called “Scarlet`s Journal” it could be going further back, before she called herself that.

Again, it is just an asumption and me trying to get things in order a bit.
Since there are no time stamps, but a chronological order it is all we have so far.

Overall i would really like to have some kind of clear timeline in the end, showing her fall into supposed madness.
I think that would clear up a bit.

It seemed pretty clear to me that her madness started after Omadd’s experiment. That is what her story on the website literally tells us. We don’t know if that is when she started having the nightmares, but it stands to reason that she didn’t have such nightmares before the experiment.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

It seemed pretty clear to me that her madness started after Omadd’s experiment. That is what her story on the website literally tells us. We don’t know if that is when she started having the nightmares, but it stands to reason that she didn’t have such nightmares before the experiment.

I have a feeling you are right.

Which would make me a little sad, since the whole mess/save we get here is all because a stupid asura experiment.

I prefer the idea of her being driven mad and trying several ways to get it out of her head, till she meets omadd and sees thinks actually “clear” for the first time, a bit more.

However at this point we have to wait and see.

The strange thing is, she saw things during that experiment that forever changed her. She gained deeper insight, and a new purpose. Yet she also hated Omadd apparently, and killed him…. but she also uses his name as a password. I get the impression that she has very mixed feelings about Omadd.

If she saw things before, but not clear and thanks to Omadd she was able to, then it would actually make sense.

it would also lift the shadow on her mind, which drove her to look for answers and made her see that the Asura were only using her (as was stated before).
As Omadd was actually helping her, the new knowledge could have overhelmed her and she killed him.

The voice could have been a distraction on her mind for a long time, which made her focus on a goal: Finding out hwat it is and how to remove it.
Thus her intention were not evil, she would be using her cleverness, which we know she had before becoming Scarlet.

However it does not change much. In the end through Omadds machine, she saw something clearly.
The nightmares did not vanish, maybe became even clearer.
She set out wit a new goal, something we do not exactly know, aside from: She saw something and wants to do something about/with it.

Leaves not much in the end:
- Finding who is pestering her and stop him, use him or get on his side.

Jaken.6801:

If she saw things before, but not clear and thanks to Omadd she was able to, then it would actually make sense.

But we know that she didn’t. Her story makes no mention of it. It wasn’t until after the experiment, that the nightmares began.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Jaken.6801:

Mordremoth
As far as we know, he is sitting somwhere in the Maguuma jungle.

We do not know this, and we have nothing to assume this might even be the case.

THis is where you’re wrong. The very first developer mention of a “jungle dragon” was by Colin. In said interview, he was asked which Elder Dragon he’d like to see next, and he brought up four of them – Primordus, Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and “the Jungle Dragon, because the Maguuma Jungle is cool” (or some wording like that). Colin explicitly mentioned the Jungle Dragon would be interesting to go fight next because he’s in the Maguuma Jungle – or at least tied to it.

This is the strongest fact of Mordremoth’s existence, though the connection of the JD and the name “Mordremoth” is fan speculation based off of Subject Alpha, it’s pretty much come to be his name by players (like Bubbles for DSD).

Shiren.9532:

darkfiremew.5937:

And the Seers are in hiding or extinct

We have nothing to base this on either. A wild assumption based on zero evidence.

Their lack of presence and knowing they were on the brink of extinction in GW1 is a pretty strong stance of evidence, actually.

They sure as heck aren’t in the open in continental Tyria.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

In said interview, he was asked which Elder Dragon he’d like to see next, and he brought up four of them – Primordus, Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and “the Jungle Dragon, because the Maguuma Jungle is cool” (or some wording like that). Colin explicitly mentioned the Jungle Dragon would be interesting to go fight next because he’s in the Maguuma Jungle – or at least tied to it.

If Colin confirmed it, then I suppose that is the case, if they ever add the Jungle Dragon.
But until they include hints towards it inside the game, they can still move around the Jungle Dragon as they see fit. Not that Tyria has many other jungles where you could place a Jungle Dragon.

Nothing literally in the game though.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

It seemed pretty clear to me that her madness started after Omadd’s experiment. That is what her story on the website literally tells us. We don’t know if that is when she started having the nightmares, but it stands to reason that she didn’t have such nightmares before the experiment.

i think if you pay attention to the wording, and the order of things being told, then it’s clear that the nightmares were an issue before the experiment.

think about it, if the journal is in chronological order (and i’m only saying “if” because they don’t slap a date to each entry, because it’s pretty obvious it is), then she had the nightmares, and then she did the experiment.

the experiment is only mentioned at the very end of the journal, when she “stares into the abyss, and it stared back”, but the nightmare, the voices, and all that other stuff happened before that.

she wasn’t necessarily evil before the experiment, but she was definitely being harrassed by the entity that she saw on the experiment before it happened. the experiment marks the splitting point between the time where she was harrassed and feared it, and the time where she lost that fear, and now has a mix of admiration/hatred for the thing. whereas she tried to escape it before the experiment, now she wants to confront it.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If Colin confirmed it, then I suppose that is the case, if they ever add the Jungle Dragon.
But until they include hints towards it inside the game, they can still move around the Jungle Dragon as they see fit. Not that Tyria has many other jungles where you could place a Jungle Dragon.

Nothing literally in the game though.

Well, there’s the Woodland Cascades to the north. And who knows, maybe Mordremoth isn’t in Tyria. Or it’s east of the Blazeridge.

Though most likely to be in the Maguuma Jungle (even if to the west off the map, closer to the shore).

BrunoBRS.5178:

i think if you pay attention to the wording, and the order of things being told, then it’s clear that the nightmares were an issue before the experiment.

think about it, if the journal is in chronological order (and i’m only saying “if” because they don’t slap a date to each entry, because it’s pretty obvious it is), then she had the nightmares, and then she did the experiment.

the experiment is only mentioned at the very end of the journal, when she “stares into the abyss, and it stared back”, but the nightmare, the voices, and all that other stuff happened before that.

she wasn’t necessarily evil before the experiment, but she was definitely being harrassed by the entity that she saw on the experiment before it happened. the experiment marks the splitting point between the time where she was harrassed and feared it, and the time where she lost that fear, and now has a mix of admiration/hatred for the thing. whereas she tried to escape it before the experiment, now she wants to confront it.

Wrong. The experiment is never mentioned in the journal – AT ALL. What’s mentioned at the end is that she actively looked at the being in her dreams, where before she was avoiding it.

The Pale Tree’s new dialogue implies that it was the experiment that started it all. But it’s just an implication – either way, we have no definitive way to argue one way or the other as a fact.

But what is mentioned in the journal is that she actually went to a mender for help. That is not something that Scarlet Briar would have done- only Ceara, before she decided she knew all her people had to teach.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

BrunoBRS.5178:

i think if you pay attention to the wording, and the order of things being told, then it’s clear that the nightmares were an issue before the experiment.

think about it, if the journal is in chronological order (and i’m only saying “if” because they don’t slap a date to each entry, because it’s pretty obvious it is), then she had the nightmares, and then she did the experiment.

the experiment is only mentioned at the very end of the journal, when she “stares into the abyss, and it stared back”, but the nightmare, the voices, and all that other stuff happened before that.

she wasn’t necessarily evil before the experiment, but she was definitely being harrassed by the entity that she saw on the experiment before it happened. the experiment marks the splitting point between the time where she was harrassed and feared it, and the time where she lost that fear, and now has a mix of admiration/hatred for the thing. whereas she tried to escape it before the experiment, now she wants to confront it.

Wrong. The experiment is never mentioned in the journal – AT ALL. What’s mentioned at the end is that she actively looked at the being in her dreams, where before she was avoiding it.

The Pale Tree’s new dialogue implies that it was the experiment that started it all. But it’s just an implication – either way, we have no definitive way to argue one way or the other as a fact.

the wording is too obvious to be “yeah it’s implied pretty heavily all the time, but they don’t outright say it”.

we know from the short story (and from some in-game snippets) that scarlet snapped after that experiment. the pale tree specifically refers to that event as “Ceara looked too deeply into the mysteries of the world, and something there was looking back at her".

then scarlet’s journal uses almost the exact same words at its very end, “Tonight, I saw it. I stared into the abyss, and it stared back at me.”

pretending they’re not talking about the same thing because they don’t spell it out is a bit silly.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

But what is mentioned in the journal is that she actually went to a mender for help. That is not something that Scarlet Briar would have done- only Ceara, before she decided she knew all her people had to teach.

How do you know how an insane person would act?

If she thought she was sick, why wouldn’t she go to a mender? Keep in mind the purpose of menders: they are healers specifically for sylvari, both physical and mental healers. If she’s having nightmares and mental issues, would she go to someone who knows human/charr/asura/norn/hylek physiology and psychology, treat it herself when her specialty is machines and not flesh, or would she go to someone who knows sylvari physiology and psychology?

BrunoBRS.5178

the wording is too obvious to be “yeah it’s implied pretty heavily all the time, but they don’t outright say it”.

we know from the short story (and from some in-game snippets) that scarlet snapped after that experiment. the pale tree specifically refers to that event as “Ceara looked too deeply into the mysteries of the world, and something there was looking back at her".

then scarlet’s journal uses almost the exact same words at its very end, “Tonight, I saw it. I stared into the abyss, and it stared back at me.”

pretending they’re not talking about the same thing because they don’t spell it out is a bit silly.

Except that the Pale Tree never says that she looked at the being. Just that she looked into the mysteries of the world.

You’re making an assumption of a fact that’s not there.

Bruno I don’t think it’s as concrete as that.
I’m ALMOST inclined to side with you – but every single one of the those Journal entries is talking about how she is having a nightmare every night and how the nightmare is changing and evolving. I think it’s more suggested that it leads up to this one night in this nightmare when the being stared back – there’s nothing to indicate this was during Omadd’s experiment and we don’t know whether this was before or after.

But I would be inclined to say that all of the Journal entries occur BEFORE Omadd’s experiment. At the end of the journal she is only beginning to question the world around her and the reality of it. I think the experiment puts her in a more direct form of contact with the being than her dreams did, and this finally tips her over the edge into the realm of full on crazy.

Wasn’t there at the end of Flame and Frost a Flame-legionnaire who dismissed the threat of dragons? (Something along the lines of ‘blahblah yeah you go play with your dragons we’ll be here long afterwards’ blahblah or so?)
Doesn’t seem unlikely to me that she either revealed to the alliances the the entity she saw or at least a way to counter the dragons’ dangers.

Since the journal says she saw a mender and the experiment turned her into Scarlet
(doubt she’d go see a Mender as Scarlet considering how the journal is written in a more ‘Ceara’ like fashion), it does strike me as if the experiment was merely the breaking point for everything.

As if she was frightened and terrified of the entity that harassed her all along as Ceara when, but later Omadd’s experiment finally allowed her to see it for what it really is. (or perhaps she thinks she does but it is just using her)

So IMO her journal was written before the experiment. She saw the entity twice on two different occasions, once as Ceara during her nightmares when it kept breaking her defenses and trying to manipulate her and the other time when she delved into the ‘Eternal Alchemy’.

Whatever that entity is, it has been trying to control her ‘destiny’ as well. So maybe the whole deal with the experiment and her insisting on her free will is that she’s struggling not only against the Dream-or-Nightmare ‘destiny’ by the Pale tree, but also against the entity which tries to manipulate her into destruction. (Which might be a losing battle?)

Also the trailer still might have a clue. There’s that ‘mysterious’ voice and while it has been dismissed as merely a mysterious voice not belonging to anyone in particular, the script itself could hint to something.
The part that bugs me is the “She must succeed at all costs /even/ if she has to destroy every last of you.”

Even makes it sound like there’s an alternative.
Could be that destroying us isn’t absolutely necessary to her plan (or the plan of the entity?) and that we just ‘happen’ to be in the way of her plans although we are not the primary target.
Or that we are the real test-subjects and she is merely testing Tyria’s defenders, not her weapons. Could that tie to the poem’s ‘Sometimes to change you have to destroy’?
But these thoughts don’t lead me to anywhere.

I feel like we’re still missing important unreleased puzzle-pieces.
Weeeeeell, lets see what’ll happen in 2 weeks.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Bruno I don’t think it’s as concrete as that.
I’m ALMOST inclined to side with you – but every single one of the those Journal entries is talking about how she is having a nightmare every night and how the nightmare is changing and evolving. I think it’s more suggested that it leads up to this one night in this nightmare when the being stared back – there’s nothing to indicate this was during Omadd’s experiment and we don’t know whether this was before or after.

But I would be inclined to say that all of the Journal entries occur BEFORE Omadd’s experiment. At the end of the journal she is only beginning to question the world around her and the reality of it. I think the experiment puts her in a more direct form of contact with the being than her dreams did, and this finally tips her over the edge into the realm of full on crazy.

once again, it’s in the way it’s worded. “i stared into the abyss”. she’s the agent, she made it happen. the nightmares were something she was trying to escape, even going as far as depriving herself of sleep, but when she stared into the abyss, it’s her choice.

and the pale tree is unquestionably talking about the experiment. not about whatever the hell scarlet saw, but the experiment as a whole. from the short story:

“Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them.” and later on “Now do you see? The Pale Tree’s voice was faint and distant, but it snapped Ceara back to viewing the tree from a distance. If you are not one with what you were born to be, you are lost. Worse, you are dangerous.” and finally, the last bit of information we get of the experiment, “With the Pale Tree’s desperate words and her own raucous laughter growing echoing across the void, Ceara plunged through the vision of the great tree and beyond.”

the “mysteries of the world” that the pale tree is referencing on her new dialogue is clearly this event scarlet was witnessing inside the experiment (whether it’s the mists, the eternal alchemy, the Dream, or anything else is up to question).

my argument is that both scarlet’s journal and the pale tree are referring to the same incident (and that said incident is without question omadd’s experiment), but we, as players, know more about what happened on that incident than what the in-game information tells us, because we have access to that short story.

there’s just too much pointing towards it (with nothing pointing against it) to shrug it off.

My assumptions about the missing races come from the GW1 walkthrough and reading the wikis. Would you prefer if I said it’s a speculation. Wasn’t this a speculative topic? More shall be revealed when the developers actually confirm things or put things in the game.

Scarlet in the journal is very clearly afraid at the beginning. Very afraid. But does she come off as afraid during What Scarlet Saw? Does Caithe ever mention some form of scaredness? No. She’s carefree to the fullest extent.

Scared people are not carefree. Ceara before the experiment does not match the journal’s mentality.

darkfiremew.5937:

My assumptions about the missing races come from the GW1 walkthrough and reading the wikis. Would you prefer if I said it’s a speculation. Wasn’t this a speculative topic? More shall be revealed when the developers actually confirm things or put things in the game.

As far as we know there was quite possibly only one Mursaat left alive at the end of GW1. The Forgotten seem to have mostly moved to the Redeemed Realm with Kormir, so they aren’t even in Tyria anymore.
The Seer’s are another race where we don’t know their numbers. We saw Seer’s in 4ish places in GW1, but whether that was multiple Seer’s or just one we don’t know – they lost a war against the Mursaat and it’s quite possible that they are now extinct. The Jotun have fallen from the height of their civilisation and are unlikely to ever really be of use, they’ve devolved. So yeah?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Scarlet in the journal is very clearly afraid at the beginning. Very afraid. But does she come off as afraid during What Scarlet Saw? Does Caithe ever mention some form of scaredness? No. She’s carefree to the fullest extent.

Scared people are not carefree. Ceara before the experiment does not match the journal’s mentality.

It’s obviously something Scarlet kept to herself and hid, seeing how it’s a locked away diary. Carefree people also don’t broadcast their fears and looking at the tension between the two, Caithe would be among the last people Ceara/Scarlet would show any weakness towards.

Whether her mentality fits her before or past the experiment based on the short story is difficult to pinpoint, but hey that’s why we’re discussing.

It fits neither Scarlet as she emerged from the experiment from what the short story gave us, nor does it fit her as we have seen her so far during the LS, nor is it 100% a confirmation for her time before the experiment.

She’s not shown fear ever before.
It’s presented as a completely new side to Scarlet – a weakness.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Scarlet in the journal is very clearly afraid at the beginning. Very afraid. But does she come off as afraid during What Scarlet Saw? Does Caithe ever mention some form of scaredness? No. She’s carefree to the fullest extent.

Scared people are not carefree. Ceara before the experiment does not match the journal’s mentality.

i’m with elysian in that she would have hidden it. hiding your fears, your weaknesses, is a very natural thing to do. look at the first entry. she only went to a mender when things got so bad she couldn’t control them.

instead of looking simply at the events, you have to look at how the events are worded, and interpret them. it is, after all, a diary, not a shopping list.

I have a question though this is a real stretch. Let’s say that the entity in Scarlet’s Dreams was Mordremoth. In my opinion it seems that she doesn’t want to be under the influence of said entity and doesn’t want her “destiny” decided by it. Given the new drill machine with a portal attached to the top. What if she decided that it’s best to turn the two fates (can’t remember how she worded it in the short story) against each other. Could she be trying to dig her way to Primordus and using the portal to move him to where Mordremoth is located? This would achieve two things:

1- Putting the two fates against each other (drawback of this is how Primordus can be considered a fate anyways)
2- Hopefully getting rid of Mordremoth if the dragons aren’t really allied together.

This would go with what the pale tree told Scarlet that society isn’t ready for what she wants to achieve. Again like I said, it’s just random wild thought that came to mind.

well, that she wants to make dragons fight each other is entirely possible, but there isn’t much to back that other than what she said in the short story (that she wants to set the forces that rule the world against each other for the detriment of both), and that she seems kinda angry at whatever it is she saw (going by her journal’s final entry).

But what indication do we have that the Elder Dragons would even fight each other? If they did, then it would seem like a problem that solves itself. But as it is, the Elder Dragons seem to share some sort of a common goal (which does not bode well for us).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But what indication do we have that the Elder Dragons would even fight each other? If they did, then it would seem like a problem that solves itself. But as it is, the Elder Dragons seem to share some sort of a common goal (which does not bode well for us).

we have none, but scarlet seems awfully confident that she could pull it off.

ElysianEternity.6215:

It’s obviously something Scarlet kept to herself and hid, seeing how it’s a locked away diary. Carefree people also don’t broadcast their fears and looking at the tension between the two, Caithe would be among the last people Ceara/Scarlet would show any weakness towards.

You kind of forget the fact that she talked to menders. That’s not really keeping things secret.

ElysianEternity.6215:

Whether her mentality fits her before or past the experiment based on the short story is difficult to pinpoint, but hey that’s why we’re discussing.

Indeed. I just wish people stopped stating that it’s so absolute and silly to think it’s all about post-experiment.

BrunoBRS.5178:

instead of looking simply at the events, you have to look at how the events are worded, and interpret them. it is, after all, a diary, not a shopping list.

I am interpreting the events are worded. Yet I come to a different conclusion than you. Which, to me, is proof that this isn’t obviously prior to and up until the experiment. After all there’s no mention of ANY of her experiences as Ceara. No Biegarth or Hoelbrak. No Asagari or Ascalon. No asura colleges or Inquest. No hylek. She only ever makes mention of a mender. Which doesn’t require going to the Grove to visit. Just a sylvari outpost.

I mean, let’s be honest. With how lacking in detail this is, we could be looking at her journal from the point she established the Molten Alliance to when she got the Tower of Nightmares working and her witnessing the thing she tried to avoid was an unintended side-effect of the hallucinogens the tower’s plant was releasing. All it would require would be her going to a mender.

Let me put it like this:

What if she stepped out of the machine full of herself, having witnessed a mystery of the world. She’s snapped, as stated before, at this point. Malicious. Now she’s going through “her” plans but as she does, every night she dreams of nightmares. At first they’re subtle – she doesn’t realize the voice is here or anything. But over the months, over the years, that whispering becomes ever more clear. And she starts to worry – what if her plans aren’t hers? What if she’s being controlled? In an interview about Scarlet, link to which is on Scarlet’s GW2W article, Scott states that Scarlet feels the only thing that can threaten her is the Elder Dragons – if that mystery she witnessed was an Elder Dragon… and now she’s starting to hear whispers in her dream… she starts to worry. What if the one force she thinks might have a chance against her has, without her knowledge, taken action against her? That’s when miss high-and-mighty will begin to fret.

The entire point behind Scarlet is that even after the experiment, she doesn’t feel threatened. This is how she is. This is what Scott presented her as – Scarlet Briar fears no one, even now, except the Elder Dragons; even those who beats her plans down she doesn’t fear. That would make it very odd that this is a sudden revelation about her past… so it has to be about her present. These dreams – they didn’t start with the experiment. They started long after, but because of the experiment.

Xukavi.4320:

I have a question though this is a real stretch. Let’s say that the entity in Scarlet’s Dreams was Mordremoth. In my opinion it seems that she doesn’t want to be under the influence of said entity and doesn’t want her “destiny” decided by it. Given the new drill machine with a portal attached to the top. What if she decided that it’s best to turn the two fates (can’t remember how she worded it in the short story) against each other. Could she be trying to dig her way to Primordus and using the portal to move him to where Mordremoth is located? This would achieve two things:

1- Putting the two fates against each other (drawback of this is how Primordus can be considered a fate anyways)
2- Hopefully getting rid of Mordremoth if the dragons aren’t really allied together.

This would go with what the pale tree told Scarlet that society isn’t ready for what she wants to achieve. Again like I said, it’s just random wild thought that came to mind.

The issue with this is that at the end of the journal, she gives into the force.