Zhaitan is small??

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Nah, he took a pity dive. Brought the tower down on top of himself because he felt so bad for us, shooting flaming confetti like it would actually do something.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: CureForLiving.5360

CureForLiving.5360

The big issue with Zhaitan is that you’re always seeing him from a distance, so frame of reference is off.

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Posted by: Vyko.6953

Vyko.6953

Zhaitan is very, very huge. I ripped dragon models (with textures) from gw2.dat and animated them in Cinema 4D; that picture of Tequatl’s and Zhaitan’s size on wiki is my render. If you guys want more renders of Zhaitan in comparison with other dragons (or with an airship we are fighting on with Zhaitan), you can tell me.

That model is really beautiful. Its really a pity that we cant see Zhaitan very well in the game. After his death, they could make an instance where we can walk on him or something like that, that would be wonderful

BTW: the model’s wingspan on wiki render is 446 metres. In comparison, model of human from game data is 190cm tall, The Bifrost is 205 cm tall and an asura is 124 cm tall (4 ft.) (from wiki: “an asura is usually about four feet tall”), so it sounds like its a real size.

Comparison images would obviously be great, but I’m wondering..

I’m an illustrator and I’ve been trying to draw Zhaitan for quite a long while, and I’m having problems with some areas of him I just cannot find good reference images of. If you were to post closeup images of his right and left hands, as well as that weird area where his lower jaw should be and how that works, I would be eternally grateful. It’s just not easy to tell how his hands exactly look, and the in-game model has a blinding light coming out of his mouth that obscures everything.

I’m also a bit curious – is Zhaitan’s original model still floating around in the games data files anywhere, or did they yank it out entirely? Hmm. I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that it was in at some point due to it being visible on some old maps.

Oh, by the way, someone yanked Drakkar out of Guild Wars 1. Scroll down a bit.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/drakkar-lake-ice-creature-screens-t10201206p8.html
He mentions further down how he got it out of the game.

I can render these parts and send it to you, no problem the only bad thing is, I couldnt find textures of “snakes” coming from his mouth, so I can render you them only in grey colour.

Thanks for searching for it. Yeah, I found that too, I writed that guy and he told me how to rip it. However, that program is very unreliable…it rips everything around you and saves it, but its drastically deformated, you cant get the right measure, so I gived up with that.

Here are Zhaitans comparisons with other dragons and Glory of Tyria. Luckily, I found Shadow of the Dragon model, but havent rigged it (that takes a little bit long time), so the wings arent standing up like at other dragons. Unfortunately, I still havent found Pact normal airship model:/. However, I found something very special and interesting, and here is the render of it as a bonus! anyone recognize this creature? (3rd picture) Hint: it can be seen in one of trailers

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Posted by: Vyko.6953

Vyko.6953

view from front

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Posted by: Vyko.6953

Vyko.6953

And the bonus creature render

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Posted by: Vyko.6953

Vyko.6953

I’m also a bit curious – is Zhaitan’s original model still floating around in the games data files anywhere, or did they yank it out entirely? Hmm. I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that it was in at some point due to it being visible on some old maps.

The model of dead Zhaitan from game IS in data. I Can export and render (and make comparison), but Im afraid i will not find the textures

#ELEtism

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Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

Good ol’ leviathan. Such a shame it never got implemented.

That human model was a nice touch. Really brings home how big these things are.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Thanks for those images!

Strangely, I thought that the Shatterer was the biggest of the three dragon champions… And that Tequatl/Shadow of the Dragon were (equally) the smallest.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

Yep, thanks for those images, Vyko! I don’t suppose you could make a top-down view of the same image as well?

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Posted by: Kain Francois.4328

Kain Francois.4328

Zhaitan’s size is fine, in my opinion. When you “swim” out of bounds and find him lying still in the abyss below, you notice he is actually REALLY huge!

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Posted by: Egon Vidar.9125

Egon Vidar.9125

I’m also a bit curious – is Zhaitan’s original model still floating around in the games data files anywhere, or did they yank it out entirely? Hmm. I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that it was in at some point due to it being visible on some old maps.

The model of dead Zhaitan from game IS in data. I Can export and render (and make comparison), but Im afraid i will not find the textures

Oh goodness, it’s actually in there. I have to admit that I’m terribly curious about it. especially its head.. and how gaping its mouth was in the trailer. As well as the differences between it and the current in-game Zhaitan. It doesn’t matter at all to me whether some things have textures or not, honestly. That’s a heck of a find either way, and I’m actually amazed no one has ripped it yet.

You’re doing awesome work and those renders are marvelous. It’s a real huge shame you never get an actual sense of Zhaitan’s immense scale in-game. He is terrifyingly massive and that could have been put to good effect.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Warning: Very bad and very approximate maths incoming.

Im a Charr player, and the tallest size a charr can be is approximately 6ft 10, lets round that to 7ft, and if I had to estimate, I would guess Tequatl is about 10-15 full size charrs long. Meaning Teq is approximately 70ft long.

From the image that Konig posted about the size comparison between Zhaitan and Teq, I suppose Zhaitan is around 4 Tequatls long, meaning Zhaitain would be 280ft long. Pretty long.

However, official lore states Kralkatorrik is 1000ft long, lore also states Glint was 20x smaller then Kralkatorrik, meaning she was around 50ft, similar to Teq, which for a Dragon Champion, sounds about right, considering Teq, The Shatterer and Claw of Jormag are around the same size, give or take a few feet, maybe a dozen or two.

So yes, Zhaitan is like, not even 1/3 the size of Kralkatorrik. Pretty small in comparison.

Fairly sure that Charr are more closer to the 8-10+ range. IIRC, it’s stated they are on average taller by about half of an average human’s height. (So, take average human, add half their height, you get a charr.) I use the kodan in LA as a comparison (as Kodan are 10 foot tall). My Norn guardian (max height, female) standing next to him is slightly taller. My charr (I forget the height slider, but she seems fairly average to other charr npcs) was roughly the same height.

Zhaitan is very, very huge. I ripped dragon models (with textures) from gw2.dat and animated them in Cinema 4D; that picture of Tequatl’s and Zhaitan’s size on wiki is my render. If you guys want more renders of Zhaitan in comparison with other dragons (or with an airship we are fighting on with Zhaitan), you can tell me.

That model is really beautiful. Its really a pity that we cant see Zhaitan very well in the game. After his death, they could make an instance where we can walk on him or something like that, that would be wonderful

BTW: the model’s wingspan on wiki render is 446 metres. In comparison, model of human from game data is 190cm tall, The Bifrost is 205 cm tall and an asura is 124 cm tall (4 ft.) (from wiki: “an asura is usually about four feet tall”), so it sounds like its a real size.

I’d love to see Tequatl compared to the other dragon champions (claw of Jormag and Shatterer) if possible. And would you be able to figure out his ‘proper’ height/length/width (including wingspan and just body)? It’d be kinda useful in my dragon based AU fanfic. As well as like airship size/Tequatl compared to airship.

On subject of Zhaitain, I think he originally looked like the concept art. However, he got beat by the other dragons repeatedly (leading to grafting other dragon champs onto him), so he went from the cutscene of a normalish dragon look, to slowly (over a super long period of time) what he was ingame. You can kinda get a feel/implication that he used to have more of a solid body/hind end, but now it’s just his spine/major bones and wings to support flight.

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Posted by: Narcemus.1348

Narcemus.1348

Wow, I’m personally impressed that the Pact was able to create a flying airship the size of a flipping Elder Dragon…

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Posted by: Vyko.6953

Vyko.6953

Im glad u like my rips guys!

to Egon Vidar:
Im adding original Zhaitan from trailer in my next from-top render. I think you will be a bit surprised, as I was, about its size!
btw I totally agree on that its really shame that in game it doesnt look that great. While Arenanet artists team did excelent job on Zhaitans design, model and animations, its sadly hardly noticeble in game how awesome the dragon actually is. And if the fight wasnt that bad as it is now, it could be just freaking awesome boss. lets hope the next elder dragon will be presented in much better way in game (personally cant wait).

for Kalavier:
Tequatl measures:
body width – 22m
wingspan – 188 m
height (when on 4 legs from ground to the top) – 35 m
length (head to tail) – 113 m

Zhaitan:
wingspan – 500 m
height – a bit unmeasureable, since he has no legs and each hand is different
lenght – 506 m

Glory of Tyria:
wingspan – 262 m
height – 158 m
lenght – 370 m

Ladies and gentlemen, that enormous thing on the right is original Zhaitan from trailer:

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Got the size for a normal airship maybe? Thanks for that information!

Zhaitan is just 150 meters (give or take) smaller then a Galaxy class starship from star trek.

Holy kitten he’s huge. I don’t even want to know the original’s size if his head and neck are 500 meters or so o_o.

And considering how he might be one of the smaller ones (I’m going with Primordus being naturally small due to being an undreground dragon)… ouch.

Still wanna see Drakkar in GW2!

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Posted by: moomooo.9357

moomooo.9357

I’d like to point out that Anet may have intentionally known the size of Zhaitan, and only scaled him according to the angle/perspective that it would be portrayed in the game. I mean to say, that perhaps Zhaitan could have been scaled down(he’s still huge though!) to provide less exertion on some rigs etc. since they figured it didn’t matter since we didn’t see him up close anyway(a mistake in my mind).

If they ever did revisit him, in a more boss battle encounter, I wouldn’t be surprised if his size was emphasized and turns out bigger than the current ingame model.

Edit: By the way, beautiful renders

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Really it just drives home the point. “How do you really make an epic boss battle between something 500 meters long, and some humans/slightly larger races?”

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

You set the stage on the creature’s back, and drive swords into its eyes while avoiding the hundreds of snaping Tequatl-sized heads.

That is, if you avoid the whole “get eaten and kill from within” idea. Which wouldn’t work with Elder Dragons because, you know, they corrupt what they eat.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

You set the stage on the creature’s back, and drive swords into its eyes while avoiding the hundreds of snaping Tequatl-sized heads.

That is, if you avoid the whole “get eaten and kill from within” idea. Which wouldn’t work with Elder Dragons because, you know, they corrupt what they eat.

Or players get assigned to different airship and you go all siege golem against it.

GW2, despite seeing people kitten about ’vehicle things being done in WoW and badly", has the chance for vehicle usage. Siege golem/siege weapon style stuff already exists, just put that on airships, boats, subs, helicopters, charr tanks…

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Posted by: Egon Vidar.9125

Egon Vidar.9125

Thank you so much for the trouble, Vyko. I’ve been wondering about that trailer model since I first saw it, and you’ve finally given me a chance to have a look at it.

It’s, uh.. Well. I actually expected it to be smaller than the current Zhaitan, but it absolutely dwarfs him instead. Imagine if we had been fighting that monstrosity instead. I wonder why he was made so much smaller.

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Posted by: Rebound.3409

Rebound.3409

Most likely they scaled it down because of performance issues..just like a lot of other stuff they did. But yea i do want the next dragon to be twice as big. Also i would actually like to fight the dragon and not it’s minions..

..i mean come on…u can call the zhaitan fight anything u want BUT a dragon fight. We were just killing off his minions and at the end we blow glitter on him to kill it. That was probably one of the most anti-climatic endings i’ve seen in a game in a very long time…specially after seeing how cool he was when he first poped up. Was thinking “oh wow this is it eh? the big dude…” … after 5 min …. “dafq?”

What i am afraid, related to the size…is the future fight with krakaltorik…Remember in GW1 his spine was dividing a whole map in 2…. if they fail to make something close to that scale it will be a major disappointment…because that would practically mean going against what they did in GW1 and how they presented him this whole time.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kralkatorrik
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Kralkatorrik_01_concept_art.jpg

If u can’t really tell the size (which u could also check yourself in GW1), to the right of that photo there are actual ships. U do the math on how big that thing actually is. And it’s not dead..it’s dormant.

Aparently he is the “gate” to Elona also. We have to get passed him to possibly unlock Elona in the future.

(edited by Rebound.3409)

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Posted by: zamalek.2154

zamalek.2154

If they intend to keep the same scale, I don’t see how we could even fight Kralkatorrik.

With fireworks of course.

Also remember that at times things in games can be representational. For example, I highly doubt an patrol in territories as dangerous as The Mists War would comprise of 2 people. I also doubt that the efforts to liberate the Orr temples would have 200 or so fighters (that is, NPCs+Players) – it would be significantly more. However, given the constraints of the technology certain compromises must be made.

Kralky was inanimate in GW1 and therefore had no associated interactions (animations, aiming reticules and everything you expect from a boss encounter in GW2) – therefore they could make him as large as they please. They may have to scale him down for GW2 (or 3) for the sake of gameplay.

Something that big would have been incredibly frustrating to fight during the final scene; just from the standpoint of finding where to click it.

Auroraglade
Epistemic.8013: Guys this is bullkitten a sentient plant creature is hitting these
wooden doors with fireballs and it’s working
.

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Posted by: CureForLiving.5360

CureForLiving.5360

Really it just drives home the point. “How do you really make an epic boss battle between something 500 meters long, and some humans/slightly larger races?”

Zhaitan would actually have been pretty easy since he’s not so much a single dragon but a bunch of dragons stuck together, so you could have fought him in the air, cutting away chunks of him (possible fighting them) until he was a more reasonable size to fight on the ground. Or more reasonably sized to fight on top of.

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Posted by: zamalek.2154

zamalek.2154

Really it just drives home the point. “How do you really make an epic boss battle between something 500 meters long, and some humans/slightly larger races?”

Zhaitan would actually have been pretty easy since he’s not so much a single dragon but a bunch of dragons stuck together, so you could have fought him in the air, cutting away chunks of him (possible fighting them) until he was a more reasonable size to fight on the ground. Or more reasonably sized to fight on top of.

Sort of, but at the same time quite far off, what actually happened: shoot bits off of him, wait until he lands on a tower, commence fireworks. A ground battle (instead of fireworks) would have been quite some fun.

Auroraglade
Epistemic.8013: Guys this is bullkitten a sentient plant creature is hitting these
wooden doors with fireballs and it’s working
.

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Posted by: Narcemus.1348

Narcemus.1348

Yeah, I had always expected the fight against Zhaitan to take place from the perspective of zoomed out from an airship as the players shoot it. There are craploads of problems with this possibility, but at the same time it would have given the players a muuuuuch better perspective of how large he was. I just hope that they aren’t afraid to give us an altered Arah story dungeon, I’m sure it would be loved my many of the players.

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Posted by: Vyko.6953

Vyko.6953

Got the size for a normal airship maybe? Thanks for that information!

Zhaitan is just 150 meters (give or take) smaller then a Galaxy class starship from star trek.

Holy kitten he’s huge. I don’t even want to know the original’s size if his head and neck are 500 meters or so o_o.

And considering how he might be one of the smaller ones (I’m going with Primordus being naturally small due to being an undreground dragon)… ouch.

Still wanna see Drakkar in GW2!

i havent found small airship model yet, but i will upload render if il do. I personally think we will see Drakkar when there will be living story around Jormag! (or an expansion)

#ELEtism

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Sort of, but at the same time quite far off, what actually happened: shoot bits off of him, wait until he lands on a tower, commence fireworks. A ground battle (instead of fireworks) would have been quite some fun.

Because hacking at Zhaitan’s cuticles to damage him sounds like so much fun.

I think fights like The Shatterer is dull enough when your blade only reaches the ankle, and you need ranged weaponry to reach something more vital. But with Zhaitan, who’s easily over 4 times the size? Yeah…

A ground battle against a wall that can lift itself off the ground would be more entertaining… or rather, the same thing, if not easier.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Kalavier.1097

Kalavier.1097

Sort of, but at the same time quite far off, what actually happened: shoot bits off of him, wait until he lands on a tower, commence fireworks. A ground battle (instead of fireworks) would have been quite some fun.

Because hacking at Zhaitan’s cuticles to damage him sounds like so much fun.

I think fights like The Shatterer is dull enough when your blade only reaches the ankle, and you need ranged weaponry to reach something more vital. But with Zhaitan, who’s easily over 4 times the size? Yeah…

A ground battle against a wall that can lift itself off the ground would be more entertaining… or rather, the same thing, if not easier.

Just reminded me of “PVD! PVD!” (player vs door!) from WvW that some people would shout.

Realistically, Zhaitan’s size, if we go with dragon scales being tougher with age, your sword would do a grand total of nothing. Likewise, in say WvW, realistically a group of soldiers hammering into a keep gate with axes and swords are going to do… NOTHING.

People want “EPIC BATTLE!” but something the size of Zhaitan? Who can be comparable to being similar size/bigger then some scifi starships? There is no way he wouldn’t be brought down without heavy firepower, aka siege weaponry or airships.